Of course, I never argued that Gitmo and Abu Ghraib were jokes. I argued that with respect to Soviet gulags, they are a joke. And they are. Some 10-30 million people died in the gulags — and that was their express purpose. When people die in the U.S.-run facilities, it is due to accidents or the abuses of rogue soldiers (who are then punished), and not administration policy.

Should read:

Of course, I never argued that Gitmo and Abu Ghraib were jokes. I argued that with respect to prisons run by actual brutal and repressive regimes, they are a joke. Cuban prisons routinely employ starvation, brutal torture, beatings and the like. Saddam’s Abu Ghraib was a hellhole where people were fed feet-first into plastic shredders and had their skulls opened by industrill drills while their families watched.

then Jam said: i’d really like to hear you explain to the folks imprisoned in Gitmo & Abu Ghraib how much of a “joke” their experiences are… comfy sitting behind your computer there?

Of course, I never argued that Gitmo and Abu Ghraib were jokes. I argued that with respect to Soviet gulags, they are a joke. And they are. Some 10-30 million people died in the gulags — and that was their express purpose. When people die in the U.S.-run facilities, it is due to accidents or the abuses of rogue soldiers (who are then punished), and not administration policy.

So, no, I wouldn’t explain to the prisoners that their experiences are a joke, except in the context that I just explained.

And yes, sitting behind my computer is very comfy. Thanks. :-)

just noticed another bit of confusion… earlier & above should read:

Shankar said: Compared to the Cuban prisons it shares the island with, Gitmo is a joke. Compared to the way Saddam ran it before the U.S. tossed him out, Abu Ghraib is a joke.

then Jam said: i’d really like to hear you explain to the folks imprisoned in Gitmo & Abu Ghraib how much of a “joke” their experiences are… comfy sitting behind your computer there?

Shankar also said: In the countries that the people you claim are supposed to be terrorized come from, secret police routinely torture people to death, with the full blessings of their governments. People like Bin Laden and Al-Zaqarwi probably laugh their asses off at our detention practices because they don’t involve regular beheadings.

etcetera…

sorry for the formatting errors – yeesh! no wonder it was confusing, Shankar… oh, & apologies for the inadvertent association with Billyboy. it’s true we’re having a disagreement & all, but i really wasn’t trying to stoop that low…

p.s. Ms. Lauren, is there a reason why the previewing is only displaying in blockcaps with no italics or links displayed? just wondering… i’m sure hacking WordPress is prolly not high on yr list of fun-things-to-do

sorry for the confusion – i assumed you read the whole thread. i was just upping the ante a bit so you wouldn’t have to worry that your compass is better than my decoder ring.

well, that i wanted to do a quick drive-by on Billy’s nonsense…

i really don’t mind if you want to feel more righteous. hell, it should be easy for you! like Billyboy said above i’m all for ripping wee babies from the womb & frying ‘em up for brunch just so the ladieeez can have swinging sex in public, donchaknow…

mmm… fried babies for brunch.

Wha?

where it says above “it is the fact that the innocent are afforded no manner of protection” should have continued into:

it is the fact that the innocent are afforded no manner of protection or legal redress which demonstates this.

how cavalier of you – you fail to mention that they were released without compensation or explanation after years of being imprisoned, tortured & terrorized. go figure.

actually, let’s do that. let’s figure it out: what kind of message do you think is being sent here? that the US is concerned with human rights & equality before law? or that the US will do whatever it wants to whoever it wants and will get away with it & there’s nothing you can do about it. unaccountable state power is by definition terrorist insofar as it rules through the fear of indiscriminate violence. it is the fact that the innocent are afforded no manner of protection

Compared to the Cuban prisons it shares the island with, Gitmo is a joke. Compared to the way Saddam ran it before the U.S. tossed him out, Abu Ghraib is a joke.

In the countries that the people you claim are supposed to be terrorized come from, secret police routinely torture people to death, with the full blessings of their governments. People like Bin Laden and Al-Zaqarwi probably laugh their asses off at our detention practices because they don’t involve regular beheadings.

oh goodie – the “we’re not as bad as some folk, so there!” argument. always a winner. and by the way, by “countries that the people you claim are supposed to be terrorized come from” do you mean those countries the US is sending such folks to for “rendition”? whose blessings are in operation there in wonder?

Now, I’m not trying to argue that the abuses that happened at Abu Ghraib were okay, nor any abuses that may or may not have taken place at Gitmo.

really? certainly sounds that way… especially since you’ve thus far described both as a “joke” & to Gitmo as a “suite at the Ritz”

The only argument I’m making here is that comparing Gitmo to a gulag is a really, really poor comparison.

if so, i think i already agreed with you. but you do seem fixated on this metaphor problem instead of dealing with the ramifications of Amnesty’s report, as others have pointed out. either that or you just like asserting your moral superiority… which, if that’s your goal, assert away! i really don’t mind if you want to feel more righteous. hell, it should be easy for you! like Billyboy said above i’m all for ripping wee babies from the womb & frying ‘em up for brunch just so the ladieeez can have swinging sex in public, donchaknow…

mmm… fried babies for brunch.