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	<title>Comments on: Suicide Girls Quit The Site, Charging Exploitation and Male-Domination</title>
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	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:11:18 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: sherry</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16404</link>
		<dc:creator>sherry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16404</guid>
		<description>I have some stupid questions:  

Why is it that &quot;women expressing their sexuality&quot; always involves being looked at rather than doing the looking?  

Might &quot;feminist  porn&quot; require a bit of equality with regard to which gender is displaying their bodies for the pleasure of the viewer?

I&#039;m afraid I find &quot;sex positive&quot; or &quot;pro sex&quot; feminism suspect because I inevitably hear its proponents talk about some form of female sexuality in which the women get looked at but don&#039;t do any looking.  I do not hear discussions about porn, stripping, or prostitution that involve serving (tittilating? benefiting?) women in the same way that men are served.

Do other straight women like to look at naked men?

Am I out of touch with reality?  Am I missing something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have some stupid questions:  </p>
<p>Why is it that &#8220;women expressing their sexuality&#8221; always involves being looked at rather than doing the looking?  </p>
<p>Might &#8220;feminist  porn&#8221; require a bit of equality with regard to which gender is displaying their bodies for the pleasure of the viewer?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m afraid I find &#8220;sex positive&#8221; or &#8220;pro sex&#8221; feminism suspect because I inevitably hear its proponents talk about some form of female sexuality in which the women get looked at but don&#8217;t do any looking.  I do not hear discussions about porn, stripping, or prostitution that involve serving (tittilating? benefiting?) women in the same way that men are served.</p>
<p>Do other straight women like to look at naked men?</p>
<p>Am I out of touch with reality?  Am I missing something?</p>
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		<title>By: Dia</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16342</link>
		<dc:creator>Dia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 10:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16342</guid>
		<description>I really, really like what Laura had to say.
Ignore the troll, he&#039;s done that everywhere online I&#039;ve clicked.
I&#039;ve walked away over 2 years ago myself and am finding myself now strongly desiring creating a non-profit group to benefit women, in response to my own and the negative experiences of others who were involved. I did work with non-profits for awhile but not as a radical feminist or anything, mainly for child welfare. 
I&#039;m Feminism With An FU. You can&#039;t take my punk. I&#039;m 30 now.
I want to make beauty out of what was ugliness.
If anyone can steer me in the directions of the best charities that need the most help, I&#039;d really appreciate it. I&#039;m filing the papers tomorrow and feel very at peace, finally.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really, really like what Laura had to say.<br />
Ignore the troll, he&#8217;s done that everywhere online I&#8217;ve clicked.<br />
I&#8217;ve walked away over 2 years ago myself and am finding myself now strongly desiring creating a non-profit group to benefit women, in response to my own and the negative experiences of others who were involved. I did work with non-profits for awhile but not as a radical feminist or anything, mainly for child welfare.<br />
I&#8217;m Feminism With An FU. You can&#8217;t take my punk. I&#8217;m 30 now.<br />
I want to make beauty out of what was ugliness.<br />
If anyone can steer me in the directions of the best charities that need the most help, I&#8217;d really appreciate it. I&#8217;m filing the papers tomorrow and feel very at peace, finally.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen Healey</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16326</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen Healey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 03:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16326</guid>
		<description>I wrote my MA thesis on objectification and subjectivity in the journals of the Suicide Girls, and one of the major problems I discussed in it was the fact that although the girls are supposed to be able to control their photoshoots, once they&#039;ve sold them to the site, that&#039;s it. The photos then belong to the site, and can be used in anyway SG.com sees fit.

The site&#039;s common practice with ex-models is to keep the photos archived, but delete the journals. The hypocrisy of this cannot be overstated for a site which actively distances itself from &quot;mainsream&quot; porn through the pro-feminist tropes of giving &quot;voice&quot; and &quot;control&quot; to the women depicted on the site.

I&#039;m glad there&#039;s a shitstorm over this latest, bulk defection, and that more follow. As has been remarked, at least Larry Flynt&#039;s upfront about being a patriarchal exploiter. The SG team&#039;s hypocrisy sickens and revolts me far more, because there&#039;s a chance people will buy into their &quot;empowerment&quot; spin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wrote my MA thesis on objectification and subjectivity in the journals of the Suicide Girls, and one of the major problems I discussed in it was the fact that although the girls are supposed to be able to control their photoshoots, once they&#8217;ve sold them to the site, that&#8217;s it. The photos then belong to the site, and can be used in anyway SG.com sees fit.</p>
<p>The site&#8217;s common practice with ex-models is to keep the photos archived, but delete the journals. The hypocrisy of this cannot be overstated for a site which actively distances itself from &#8220;mainsream&#8221; porn through the pro-feminist tropes of giving &#8220;voice&#8221; and &#8220;control&#8221; to the women depicted on the site.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad there&#8217;s a shitstorm over this latest, bulk defection, and that more follow. As has been remarked, at least Larry Flynt&#8217;s upfront about being a patriarchal exploiter. The SG team&#8217;s hypocrisy sickens and revolts me far more, because there&#8217;s a chance people will buy into their &#8220;empowerment&#8221; spin.</p>
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		<title>By: bob</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16310</link>
		<dc:creator>bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 00:59:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16310</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://dramawhores.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;More information here. &lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dramawhores.com" rel="nofollow">More information here. </a></p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16305</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Oct 2005 23:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16305</guid>
		<description>As a former suicide girl who left the site 2 years ago, I&#039;ll say that SG is run like a family... a very dysfunctional family where whatever the &quot;father&quot; says goes, and the women and children keep silent.  I thought it would be a great outlet to express myself in ways I felt closed off from beforehand... nudity never meant a whole lot to me but art has.  However, that pipe dream was obliterated with really bad pictures and little control over what I really wanted to be on the site, among other things.  It&#039;s about time other women are leaving.  And it&#039;s true, in a sense, that they are a symptom of a social disease.  Hopefully this walking away is a symptom of a cure... perhaps even a true future for the feminist movement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a former suicide girl who left the site 2 years ago, I&#8217;ll say that SG is run like a family&#8230; a very dysfunctional family where whatever the &#8220;father&#8221; says goes, and the women and children keep silent.  I thought it would be a great outlet to express myself in ways I felt closed off from beforehand&#8230; nudity never meant a whole lot to me but art has.  However, that pipe dream was obliterated with really bad pictures and little control over what I really wanted to be on the site, among other things.  It&#8217;s about time other women are leaving.  And it&#8217;s true, in a sense, that they are a symptom of a social disease.  Hopefully this walking away is a symptom of a cure&#8230; perhaps even a true future for the feminist movement.</p>
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		<title>By: Logan</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16257</link>
		<dc:creator>Logan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Oct 2005 23:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16257</guid>
		<description>I had a girlfriend who worked for Playboy for two years as a web developer. Her experience was the same as your friend&#039;s, ika. It was a very woman and family friendly company. That may be in part Christy Hefner&#039;s leadership, but HH always like to run his company like a family. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a girlfriend who worked for Playboy for two years as a web developer. Her experience was the same as your friend&#8217;s, ika. It was a very woman and family friendly company. That may be in part Christy Hefner&#8217;s leadership, but HH always like to run his company like a family.</p>
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		<title>By: ika</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16210</link>
		<dc:creator>ika</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:15:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16210</guid>
		<description>Slight tangent here.  A close friend of mine involved in the legal field found that Playboy, from the employee side, was actually a much more female friendly, comfortable working environment than the previous law firms where she worked, which she characterized as very strongly a men&#039;s club (gen. extending that to comment that it was a white men&#039;s club).  She found that the hours were more conducive to her balance of family life, that co-workers were more supportive, and that she was less likely to be passed over for challenging work assignments based on her gender.  While there seem to be clear an genuine issues with the Suicide Girls&#039; conduct, it seems like it would be difficult to say that it is as horrid and exploitive as portrayed without saying that there still might be empowering components to the experience of a participating member.  I would think that for women coming from backgrounds that are very traditional or conservative, where even this more mild form of alternative culture would still be heavily criticized and where religion-driven guilt over sexuality reigns (which is still large chunks of less urban areas of this country), the chance to present an image you identify with and your sexuality might very well be a positive experience.  While I believe that there should be criticism over such issues as contract handling and whether there is an unfair bargaining position used to exploit members, I think those exist as an element of many labor disputes outside the industry of adult-oriented entertainment.  There is a strong position that there should be more diversity (size, shape and color) to the world of burlesque, but I think it is developing (albeit slowly) over time and I think that the Suicide Girls have popularized the medium so that such diversity may follow as more women are engaged in this type of expression.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Slight tangent here.  A close friend of mine involved in the legal field found that Playboy, from the employee side, was actually a much more female friendly, comfortable working environment than the previous law firms where she worked, which she characterized as very strongly a men&#8217;s club (gen. extending that to comment that it was a white men&#8217;s club).  She found that the hours were more conducive to her balance of family life, that co-workers were more supportive, and that she was less likely to be passed over for challenging work assignments based on her gender.  While there seem to be clear an genuine issues with the Suicide Girls&#8217; conduct, it seems like it would be difficult to say that it is as horrid and exploitive as portrayed without saying that there still might be empowering components to the experience of a participating member.  I would think that for women coming from backgrounds that are very traditional or conservative, where even this more mild form of alternative culture would still be heavily criticized and where religion-driven guilt over sexuality reigns (which is still large chunks of less urban areas of this country), the chance to present an image you identify with and your sexuality might very well be a positive experience.  While I believe that there should be criticism over such issues as contract handling and whether there is an unfair bargaining position used to exploit members, I think those exist as an element of many labor disputes outside the industry of adult-oriented entertainment.  There is a strong position that there should be more diversity (size, shape and color) to the world of burlesque, but I think it is developing (albeit slowly) over time and I think that the Suicide Girls have popularized the medium so that such diversity may follow as more women are engaged in this type of expression.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16204</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16204</guid>
		<description>Dilan, Amen.

Someone on Hugo&#039;s blog said that the criteria for truly different sexual expression be that the models 1) control the content and context; and 2) that it&#039;s not financially exploitive, and preferably not even commercial. I think there&#039;s a lot of wisdom in that.  The financial motive is far and away the one that is most likely to produce oppression masquerading as empowerment.  What is produced for free just because the producer wants to speak, we can count on mostly to faithfully represent someone&#039;s vision.  

Of course, there are not exactly a lot of places I know of where women put recognizable images of themselves being sexual in a public space other than for profit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dilan, Amen.</p>
<p>Someone on Hugo&#8217;s blog said that the criteria for truly different sexual expression be that the models 1) control the content and context; and 2) that it&#8217;s not financially exploitive, and preferably not even commercial. I think there&#8217;s a lot of wisdom in that.  The financial motive is far and away the one that is most likely to produce oppression masquerading as empowerment.  What is produced for free just because the producer wants to speak, we can count on mostly to faithfully represent someone&#8217;s vision.  </p>
<p>Of course, there are not exactly a lot of places I know of where women put recognizable images of themselves being sexual in a public space other than for profit.</p>
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		<title>By: Dilan Esper</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16198</link>
		<dc:creator>Dilan Esper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:59:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16198</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that feminist porn is quite possible-- I am not completely sure of this, having never been there, but the unionized Lusty Lady strip bar in San Francisco comes to mind, and certainly there has been enough attention given to porn movie directors who put more into their movies than just a series of penetration scenes and money shots.

Nonetheless, what Suicide Girls demonstrates is something that we&#039;ve known for a long time in a lot of contexts-- that &quot;feminism&quot; is easily co-optable, at least in the sense of the broad notion of &quot;female empowerment&quot;. The Dove ads, for instance, are not by a longshot the first time that Madison Avenue has used quasi-feminist rhetoric to sell products; a particularly outrageous example from the past was Virginia Slims cigarettes, which were marketed under the slogan &quot;we&#039;ve come a long way, baby&quot;. Virginia Slims also sponsored the women&#039;s tennis tour for many years-- the first (and perhaps the only) sports franchise that affords women athletes a shot at comparable compensation to what their male counterparts get.

The point is, of course, that the customers of purportedly &quot;feminist&quot; commercial products often don&#039;t discern-- or sometimes don&#039;t even care-- whether the actual product benefits women. That is certainly the case with Suicide Girls-- the guys who pay to see naked women on that site may feel elevated by the feminist message, but they are still logging on to see the naked chicks. They aren&#039;t going to spend much time figuring out if the site actually lives up to its rhetoric.

This makes it very hard for people who actually do advocate a pro-porn, pro-sex feminism and want to recast sexual expression in a more feminist direction. If the customers are making their purchasing decisions based on the surface veneer and not an actual commitment to feminism, it&#039;s always going to be really easy for men who care about money rather than feminism to step in with Potemkin feminism along the lines that Virginia Slims sold 30 years ago.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that feminist porn is quite possible&#8211; I am not completely sure of this, having never been there, but the unionized Lusty Lady strip bar in San Francisco comes to mind, and certainly there has been enough attention given to porn movie directors who put more into their movies than just a series of penetration scenes and money shots.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, what Suicide Girls demonstrates is something that we&#8217;ve known for a long time in a lot of contexts&#8211; that &#8220;feminism&#8221; is easily co-optable, at least in the sense of the broad notion of &#8220;female empowerment&#8221;. The Dove ads, for instance, are not by a longshot the first time that Madison Avenue has used quasi-feminist rhetoric to sell products; a particularly outrageous example from the past was Virginia Slims cigarettes, which were marketed under the slogan &#8220;we&#8217;ve come a long way, baby&#8221;. Virginia Slims also sponsored the women&#8217;s tennis tour for many years&#8211; the first (and perhaps the only) sports franchise that affords women athletes a shot at comparable compensation to what their male counterparts get.</p>
<p>The point is, of course, that the customers of purportedly &#8220;feminist&#8221; commercial products often don&#8217;t discern&#8211; or sometimes don&#8217;t even care&#8211; whether the actual product benefits women. That is certainly the case with Suicide Girls&#8211; the guys who pay to see naked women on that site may feel elevated by the feminist message, but they are still logging on to see the naked chicks. They aren&#8217;t going to spend much time figuring out if the site actually lives up to its rhetoric.</p>
<p>This makes it very hard for people who actually do advocate a pro-porn, pro-sex feminism and want to recast sexual expression in a more feminist direction. If the customers are making their purchasing decisions based on the surface veneer and not an actual commitment to feminism, it&#8217;s always going to be really easy for men who care about money rather than feminism to step in with Potemkin feminism along the lines that Virginia Slims sold 30 years ago.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16193</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2005/09/28/suicide-girls-quit-the-site-charging-exploitation-and-male-domination/#comment-16193</guid>
		<description>AlexTree, I think it&#039;s really telling that there are not a lot of places for women to look at naked men (Sweet Action notwithstanding, which I have not seen, but which I think represents itself as scruffy Brooklyn hipster boys getting naked for a female audience).  

It&#039;s not as if there are not women who want to see naked men -- but the overwhelming audience for naked men is gay men.  It&#039;s also not as if men won&#039;t do sex work -- there are plenty of men doing gay porn for the money.  So either women cannot afford to consume images of naked men, which is a problem, or cultural constraints still prevent women from doing so, which is a problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AlexTree, I think it&#8217;s really telling that there are not a lot of places for women to look at naked men (Sweet Action notwithstanding, which I have not seen, but which I think represents itself as scruffy Brooklyn hipster boys getting naked for a female audience).  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s not as if there are not women who want to see naked men &#8212; but the overwhelming audience for naked men is gay men.  It&#8217;s also not as if men won&#8217;t do sex work &#8212; there are plenty of men doing gay porn for the money.  So either women cannot afford to consume images of naked men, which is a problem, or cultural constraints still prevent women from doing so, which is a problem.</p>
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