I am completely opposed to a woman having to notify her partner before receiving an abortion, this is what brought about our discussion. I feel that most women would anyway and if they do not – the woman has a good reason not to.

He feels that men have rights and should be notified and should have a say in the issue. I feel that they had a say in the issue when they decided to have sex. So, the argument goes and increases and flies off in all directions from there.

A couple of interesting tidbits have come about. One that I presented to him (since his argument is that a man should have a say whether the baby is kept or not because he can be forced to have financial responsibility) is that at what point is a dad a deadbeat dad? Is it if there is a one night stand and then a baby results? Is it if he sticks it out with the woman until the child is born and then leaves? Is it only if he takes off after the child is several years old? He could not answer this with satisfaction and is now rethinking his argument.

The next argument is: if the woman decides to have the child and the man does not want it then the woman should be willing to have the man sign off on all responsibility and RIGHTS to the child. This also upset him because he would want to be involved in his child’s life and there is so much FINALITY in signing away his rights.

My comeback: and abortion is NOT FINAL!

So, I do not believe that there can be any FAIR solution to this question and I do not believe that it needs to be fair. I believe that it is a woman’s body and a woman’s choice. Bottom line is that a woman has a far greater investment in pregnancy and child. A man can cut and run.

Also, I do not believe that abortion is really an abortion issue. I believe that it is an issue of control and of woman having the right to be an autonomous and whole person who can own property, vote and choose what to do with her body and her reproductive organs. I feel that woman’s choice equals woman’s voice and that it should not be decided by men regardless of whether or not their genes are involved. It is simply NOT a men’s issue.

I feel that it all boils down to wanting to continue to control women.

I was perfectly willing and aware that I was taking full responsibility, financial and otherwise, for a child when I decided to have sex – from the very beginning.

Thank you for bringing this topic out and having such a fantastic discussion.

There has been at least one case where a court ruled that a person could do just that. A couple created several “frozen embroys”, and later divorced. The woman wanted to implant one of the embryos, because she otherwise could not become pregnant. The man objected because he did not wish to be a father, and it would have made him a father without his consent. As the woman’s body was not directly involved–i.e., she was not already pregnant–the court ruled that she did not have the right to implant one of the embryos.

As has been pointed out on the thread, sometimes politics go out the window when pregnancy happens. A ‘pro-life’ may suddenly consider abortion options, a ‘pro-choice’ may suddenly find they want the baby in the worst way. The reality of a pregnancy emotionally effects participants in really unexpected ways.

Government policy is never going to be perfect in this regard because the reactions of individuals are going to be so varied as every contingency will not be met.

On the individual, personal level when partners cannot agree on the outcome of a pregnancy, rarely is the result ever going to be other than tragic. Either a resultant child is going to be an object of resentment by one of the parents, or the grief over the destruction of nascent life will be a source of resentment for the parent that wanted that child.

On the policy level, IMO, is that there be a more consistent approach — starting with ‘every child deserves the support of both parents’. Children are the primary responsibility of their parents NOT the government (the more we have opted to let the government to take over this primary responsibility, the more we have cheated our children of a healthly childhood). If partners want to make stipulations on how to handle this, the government can sign off (as long as the child’s rights are being protected). If the partners cannot agree, then the government can enforce via guidelines.

In regards to abortion options, a woman has and should retain what I would call the “right of first refusal.” Government policy does and should maintain a handsoff an adult woman’s option to seek an abortion in the first trimester. As tragic as I know it can be for a man who is thrilled with the pregnancy of his partner to find out that she is determined to seek an abortion, policy at this point cannot find any overwhelming advantage to allowing him to veto her decision. Within a marriage contract, however, I believe the husband should be informed … just as married partners have the right to know the HIV status of their partner. Marriage contracts impose rights, obligations and responsibilities that don’t come with the ‘hooking up’ culture.

If a single woman decides to have her baby and give it up for adoption, government policy should support that and terminate without prejudice the father’s rights to that child.

Outside of the thorny issues of abortion/adoption/child support, IMHO the issues surrounding our attitude toward sex itself bear examining.

Hubris has found the solution to all these problems! After all, all the kids signing virginity pledges are doing it.

I fail to see how taking it up the poopchute constitutes abstaining from sex.

Also, has anyone heard about the rate of STDs going up among these little “abstinence pledge” darlings?

Then she became a nurse who worked in a maternity clinic where she got tired of seeing women coming in who couldn’t afford the kids they had but were pregnant again.

She got tired of seeing twenty year olds working on their fifth or sixth pregnancy.

A taste of the real world changed her mind real fast.

Now I’m not sure what my point is. I think what I’m getting at is that I shouldn’t have to find out a man’s view on abortion before we bone. I wouldn’t get involved in a relationship with a pro-life man, but that has nothing to do with the possibility of my getting pregnant, rather it’s a more general compatibility concern – I’d probably find such a man generally unpleasant to be with. But if I want to have a one night stand with a hot Republican who might be pro-life, I’m going to go ahead and do it and feel completely comfortable doing so because I know that abortion is an available option for me. And if he has a problem with that, then he shouldn’t go around boning women who very well might exercise that option. Seems fair to me.

I have to confess to having had sex while protected by the Pill and hoping it would somehow fail because I really, really wanted to get pregnant (it never did). I probably sound like Dawn Eden or someone when I say that the possibility of getting pregnant added to the charm, but for me it was true.

On the pro-choice-not-fucking-pro-life thing, there’s also the problem of people who think “I believe in a woman’s right to choose” means “I’ll have an abortion if it suits your notion of convenience”.

In New Zealand we have a Domestic Purposes Benefit, which means a single parent can get a benefit which is supposed to be liveable on (it’s not really, but that’s another rant). If one parent is on the DPB, any money the other parent pays in child support doesn’t go on to the parent, but to the government that is paying the DPB.

I don’t think this system goes far enough, but it does fundamentally alters my view of the question of whether men should have full parental rights and responsibilities just because they are the biological parent. I don’t think it should be the responsibility of the biological parents to provide the resources required to raise a child. Children should be supported by all of us.

I understand that in the current situation in America paying child support is vital. But I don’t see it as the ideal, and certainly not the only solution, to what should happen when the biological father does not feel ready to be a parent.