205 comments for “You Ask, We Answer

  1. January 4, 2006 at 11:01 am

    LOL Lauren, even the smartest students are dumber than rocks….

  2. January 4, 2006 at 11:06 am

    You know, you’d think writing “Wait, can they see my IP?” is usually the first sign that you shouldn’t write whatever you’re about to write. It’s up there with other famous questions like “hey, does anyone know if this is explosive?” and “this is edible, right?”

  3. January 4, 2006 at 11:20 am

    They are all in quite predicitably red zones. Virginia, the OC…

  4. January 4, 2006 at 12:01 pm

    Were these people all home schooled?

    Mercy.

  5. anashi
    January 4, 2006 at 12:12 pm

    These creeps are trying to pass it off as just being about Jill’s looks, but it wasn’t just about her looks, ‘hate-rape’ and talking about wanting to rape someone for wearing a nose ring (wtf) is beyond the pale. Being called a fat ugly slutbag for what I’ve said on these threads is nothing compared to sexual innuendo they posted about Jill. Name calling is dismissabe and I’d never get my feathers ruffled by it cause hey they don’t know me, the ‘hate-rape’ stuff is not dismissable and if anyone posted that they wanted to rape me online I would be very threatened, and I’d have good reason to be if it was posted by my fellow students.

  6. January 4, 2006 at 12:31 pm

    If I were considering whether or not to post something on any comment thread or message board, it would give me pause to see that I would be putting myself into the same company as someone who uses “I raped a goat” as a pseudonym.

  7. January 4, 2006 at 12:37 pm

    Charlie, don’t be so PC. Raping goats is perfectly good conduct, especially for law students.

  8. Thomas
    January 4, 2006 at 12:43 pm

    Of course, Lauren, for one to believe that it is wrong to nonconsensually fuck a goat usually imports a notion of animal rights. While many folks assume that almost everyone acknowledges some bare minimum of animal rights the way almost everyone has some basic conception of human rights, this does not follow. My view is that if it is permissible for me to kill it, wear it’s skin and eat it’s flesh without asking its permission, it is also permissible for me to stick my penis in it. Others have a different view.

  9. January 4, 2006 at 1:27 pm

    Redneck’s famous last words…

    “Hey watch this!!”

  10. Scot
    January 4, 2006 at 1:53 pm

    Just felt like correcting the above “red zone” comment. Respectively, the IP addresses listed above are:

    1. Cox: Orange County
    2. Verizon: Los Angeles
    3. AOL: Virginia

    But, of course, all AOL IPs appear to be coming from VA, b/c AOL handles all internet requests through proxy in Virginia — regardless of where the request originates.

    Have fun kids!

  11. January 4, 2006 at 2:14 pm

    My view is that if it is permissible for me to kill it, wear it’s skin and eat it’s flesh without asking its permission, it is also permissible for me to stick my penis in it. Others have a different view.

    What if I just want the cheese?

  12. Tanooki Joe
    January 4, 2006 at 2:30 pm

    What if I just want the cheese?

    To stick your penis in?

  13. January 4, 2006 at 2:34 pm

    “Hey, you got your penis in my cheese!”

  14. Magnus Malmborn
    January 4, 2006 at 2:51 pm

    Ewww.

  15. Thomas
    January 4, 2006 at 2:57 pm

    Lauren, let me ask you this: is milking an animal by attaching metal pumps to its breasts consensual or non-consensual?

    Magnus, if you’re squicked already, bail from this thread. To paraphrase a great Christopher Walken soliloquy: “penises in cheese is no kind of fun. But what I have to offer, that’s as good as it’s gonna get, and it won’t ever get that good again.”

  16. January 4, 2006 at 2:59 pm

    God, this thing is bothering me. Hello, all, I’ve lurked here but never posted before. But this weird cyber-stalking-whatever of Jill has gotten under my skin.

    When Jill first posted about this a couple of days ago, I had two reactions: 1) The level of cognitive dissonace was just hilarious — here these guys are looking at a picture of Jill, who is a strikingly pretty young woman, and trashing her for an entire imaginary fatness and ugliness. Why? Because she’s a feminist, and feminists to them are fat and ugly. Doesn’t matter what’s actually in front of their eyes. 2) What was not hilarious was that these guys are in law school (or hope to be), and said things like:

    “Wow, it’s been a while since I’ve been exposed to the stupidity of feminism. I thought evolution had run its course and eliminated them for lack of ability to reproduce. Are bitches like her common at NYU?”

    These aren’t chumps working at the 7-11 (presumably), but members of the “educated” class and our future lawyers. And this is what they think?

    Twenty-plus years ago, my ex was in law school at a prestigious school. I drank with his buddies, hung out with them, debated case law (’cause I read all texts too, don’t ask me why), all that shit. And there was NO one, NO one, in that class who would have been stupid enough or ill-informed enough to make the above remarks about feminism. Back then, educated people knew that feminism meant “women are people too.”

    What the fuck has happened?

    I just spent an hour reading the threads on that board, thinking that surely these guys are the dregs of the law school world. Well, they’re definitely stupid, but I don’t know if they’re the dregs. Maybe the the general level of intellectual achievement has just deteriorated drastically in the past 20 years.

    The board is unbelievably racist and sexist. They talk about stuff like whether to drop out of a class with only a couple of black students, since they think they’ll better on the grade curve the more minorities there are in the class (these are white guys talking, of course):

    “If you’re a 1L and your school practices AA, you should absolutely drop it and find the class with the highest percentage of minorities and/or women. White males do the best in law school and make law review in disproportionately high percentages.”

    Followed by:

    “Remember… the T14 loves diversity. A nigger with a 155 is like a honky with a 165.”

    The sexism is grotesque — endless talk of hate-fucking, rape jokes, hot chicks. And their understanding of feminism is non-existent. As in:

    “Also….um, feminists are like the most bitter opinionated people on planet earth. Their whole existence revolves around militant hate towards men or anyone who disagrees w/ their opinions.”

    Given all this, the response to Jill by that person who wrote to defend the board is almost poignant — or depressing, or something:

    “Most threads, even the ones which start out questionable (racist, sexist, rude…) develop into serious intellectual conversations naturally. This is a good reflection of the spirit of xoxo posters. They like to have fun, they are extremely intelligent, and they dont take themselves too seriously.”

    Serious intellectual conversation? Extremely intelligent? Ehh….not so much. It’s mostly Beavis&Butthead repartee, anxiety about grades/admissions, macho posturing about how the macho world of law really works, and racist/sexist crap. Occasionally someone analyzes the genius of Scalia. It’s fucking pathetic.

    Apologies for the very long post.

  17. Lux Fiat
    January 4, 2006 at 3:03 pm

    “Hey, you got your penis in my cheese!”

    You got your cheese on my penis!

  18. ilyka
    January 4, 2006 at 3:19 pm

    They are all in quite predicitably red zones

    Yeah, quite predictably. Could we show a little nuance here, Stephen?

  19. zuzu
    January 4, 2006 at 3:31 pm

    I suppose I won’t share the story of how a few boys from my high school raped and killed some goats at a petting zoo.

    And this was a nice town in Connecticut, the kind that’s always described in the NYTimes as a “leafy” suburb.

    These aren’t chumps working at the 7-11 (presumably), but members of the “educated” class and our future lawyers. And this is what they think?

    They don’t really get any better once they graduate. To some extent, they learn to suppress it after a while, at least those in the under-50 crowd (the old male partners are throwbacks). Aggressive behavior is encouraged in legal practice, though it’s best when it’s directed properly. These guys haven’t learned to direct it properly. Some never do, but they usually run into trouble because that shit is not tolerated by the higher-ups.

    For example, the young male former frat-boy associates I worked with at the Evil Empire often made racist, sexist or homophobic comments, though they usually only did so among other associates. Eventually, they got the message that We Don’t Do That Here and shut up. (The We Don’t Do That Here thing is one of the few things I will give the Evil Empire and in particular the nasty, brutish and short counsel I worked for. That, and the fact that low-level staffers (clerks, secretaries, mailroom guys) were treated well even if the associates and paralegals got screamed at.)

  20. Tex
    January 4, 2006 at 3:39 pm

    Lux, this thread is now officially too smegmatic for my tastes. Tee hee.

  21. Thomas
    January 4, 2006 at 3:55 pm

    Zuzu, some sociopaths do use animal torture and killing to lower their inhibitions to hurting people. That’s not such a strong argument for banning bestiality, however. It proves too much, as the same argument applies to first-person shooter games and has even been made about gangsta rap.

    Of course, lots of people have a worldview that encompasses some animal rights, and such a view often precludes bestiality. But on my account, arguments against bestiality really have to travel either through a conception of animal rights or a religious opposition to alternative sex. I’m skeptical that a veal-eating aetheist can construct a consistent argument against bestiality.

  22. SD
    January 4, 2006 at 4:02 pm

    Three things:

    1. Posting peoples’ IP addresses does not foster an open discourse. I hesitated before posting because I knew my IP would be recorded (yes, I’m in a red state. No, that doesn’t mean I’m an inbred retard)

    2. Spend some time on xoxo. These people aren’t going to hurt you. They’re not making threats. It’s a community of law students, lawyers, and people killing time at work that like to get a reaction out of people and that’s what they’re getting out of you and those defending you on your blog. I’m a female and I’ve been posting on that site for almost three years. I’ve been ridiculed, complimented, “stalked” and, surprise, no harm befell me. Take xoxo for what it’s worth and not more and tell your peons to quit overreacting.

    3. Why do you wear so much makeup? Seems to me that wearing making furthers a lot of the social “problems” that feminists are trying to solve. Besides, too much makeup is *not* flattering.

  23. Ron O.
    January 4, 2006 at 4:06 pm

    I’ll have a head-cheese sandwich please. Yes, give me some brown mustard too. Thanks!

  24. ilyka
    January 4, 2006 at 4:16 pm

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that every defense of xoxohth.com will consist more or less of the following:

    1. These threads are really, really atypical. That’s why there are only a dozen of them.

    2. Most of the posters mean no harm and besides, hate-fucking is fun and consensual.

    3. It IS TOO still the most prestigious law school admissions discussion board on the internet, despite the wealth of evidence to the contrary.

    4. Some people here said mean things about these xoxohth.com guys and now you’re posting their IP addresses, so that makes you bitches just as bad.

    But bonus points to you, SD, for adding in that special something, that bash on Jill for her makeup that added so much to the discussion. Because she hasn’t had to read enough about her appearance already, I guess.

  25. SD
    January 4, 2006 at 4:20 pm

    Please read my post more carefully. I didn’t “bash” her for wearing too much makeup. I asked a question. I just happen to think that woman are usually more attractive when they don’t wear as much makeup but I wasn’t suggesting that to be true (or not true) of Jill. I didn’t comment on her looks at all, but thanks for being over-sensitive and helping me prove my point.

    These treads are most certainly NOT atypical of xoxo. You must not read that site very often.

  26. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 4:21 pm

    1. Posting peoples’ IP addresses does not foster an open discourse. I hesitated before posting because I knew my IP would be recorded (yes, I’m in a red state. No, that doesn’t mean I’m an inbred retard)

    Neither do comments about raping people you disagree with! They’d definitely make me hesitate before posting on any site. Have you complained about them? No? Huh.

    2. Spend some time on xoxo. These people aren’t going to hurt you. They’re not making threats. It’s a community of law students, lawyers, and people killing time at work that like to get a reaction out of people and that’s what they’re getting out of you and those defending you on your blog. I’m a female and I’ve been posting on that site for almost three years. I’ve been ridiculed, complimented, “stalked” and, surprise, no harm befell me. Take xoxo for what it’s worth and not more and tell your peons to quit overreacting.

    Yeah, um, I’ve been stalked and subsequently harassed IRL. I see no point in giving these people the benefit of the doubt. They certainly don’t deserve any special consideration. You’re exactly one woman. You also don’t seem to occupy the same position as Jill wrt politics and affiliation with the board. If you think there’s nothing offensive or fucked-up or frightening about using those words to get that kind of reaction out of women, then there’s no point talking to you. And compliments? In this context? Whatever you say.

    3. Why do you wear so much makeup? Seems to me that wearing making furthers a lot of the social “problems” that feminists are trying to solve. Besides, too much makeup is *not* flattering.

    Criticizing women’s appearances as though they should give a fuck is another great way to further the social problem–love the insult quotes, by the way!–that feminists are trying to solve.

  27. SD
    January 4, 2006 at 4:22 pm

    “These threads are most certainly NOT atypical…”

    I point this out as a reason they shouldn’t be taken seriously. I see I didn’t make myself clear above.

  28. January 4, 2006 at 4:25 pm

    I didn’t comment on her looks at all, but thanks for being over-sensitive and helping me prove my point.

    Apparently you didn’t make yourself clear here either.

  29. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 4:26 pm

    Please read my post more carefully. I didn’t “bash” her for wearing too much makeup. I asked a question. I just happen to think that woman are usually more attractive when they don’t wear as much makeup but I wasn’t suggesting that to be true (or not true) of Jill. I didn’t comment on her looks at all, but thanks for being over-sensitive and helping me prove my point.

    Oh, come on. If you want to read like a lawyer, let’s: you commented that she wore a great deal of makeup, and then said that, in general, women who wear a great deal of makeup don’t look so good. Any reasonable person would connect the two statements and assume that you were implying something about Jill’s looks. Because, gosh, you read and write English yourself. If this kind of weaselling is characteristic of the discussions on xanth, color me unimpressed.

  30. Kristjan Wager
    January 4, 2006 at 4:31 pm

    Posting peoples’ IP addresses does not foster an open discourse.

    Who on earth wants an open discourse with that sort of people?

    Spend some time on xoxo. These people aren’t going to hurt you. They’re not making threats. It’s a community of law students, lawyers, and people killing time at work that like to get a reaction out of people and that’s what they’re getting out of you and those defending you on your blog.

    You know what, I remember that forum from back when Leiter took it on. It’s vile, racist, and a disgrace to all law students.
    You might not think that they are making threats, but Jill certainly feel that they are, and I for one would agree with her. Both implicit and explicit threats.

    I’ve been ridiculed, complimented, “stalked” and, surprise, no harm befell me. Take xoxo for what it’s worth and not more and tell your peons to quit overreacting.

    But we do take it for it for what it is worth. It’s a good picture into the mindset of the people that posts those things.
    Also, I find it interesting that they all seem to asume that all the men here are… ‘sucking up’ I believe they said, to Jill, and agreeing with her ‘man-hating’ ideas, because we want to have sex with her.
    Some male posters here are gay, some happily married, some interested, some uninterested, and some of us are just foreigners, so it is not really relevant. The reason why we agree with Jill is because she is right.

  31. ilyka
    January 4, 2006 at 4:33 pm

    I didn’t “bash” her for wearing too much makeup. I asked a question.

    Don’t bullshit me. Every woman learns early how to insult every other woman without “really” insulting her, to do it in a backstabbing, underhanded, cowardly, catty way, and that is exactly what you did and exactly why you did it.

    And because in your home environment you apparently feel comfortable enough to state how you really feel, which is that we all sound like “massive retards?”–I’m not buying that you were “just asking a question.”

  32. TubaFrog
    January 4, 2006 at 4:35 pm

    My reasoned defense of XOXO:

    Get over yourself, retards.

  33. TubaFrog
    January 4, 2006 at 4:35 pm

    I look forward to the deletion of the comment above.

  34. TubG
    January 4, 2006 at 4:39 pm

    Good job stooping down to their level!

  35. Tanooki Joe
    January 4, 2006 at 4:43 pm

    Posting peoples’ IP addresses does not foster an open discourse

    .

    “Yeah! That’s what the hate-fucking is for!”

    I didn’t “bash” her for wearing too much makeup. I asked a question.

    I see. In that vein: Why are you such a fucking, condescending moron?

  36. SD
    January 4, 2006 at 4:43 pm

    ilyka,

    Take everything that is said on xoxo for what its worth and keep in mind the forum on which it is written.

    I’m sure you guys aren’t “massive retards”; rather, most of you are probably quite intelligent. I do think, however, that you’re overreacting and that if you guys stop responding to the xoxo guys their fun will be over. I always enjoy these “wars” xoxo has with other forums because it provides a good few days’ worth of entertainment. Remember, though, without active participation by both sides, this wouldn’t be possible. Also, I usually don’t get involved but feminists strike a particular chord with me, I guess.

  37. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 4:47 pm

    ok…the fact that you not only recorded my ip but posted it for everyone to see is really sad. especially b/c i was trying to have an open discourse w/ U. Im afraid to report that neither here, nor on xoxo, haved I said a single thing about you which is remotely threatening, harrassment, or even very mean. You need to learn to focus your anger appropriately, and not lump all men together as a group. I know you dont feel you need us xoxoers coming here and speaking our minds (esp. if you threaten them with their ips), but its unfortunate that you are actually hurting the ones who defend you. Sad really

  38. SD
    January 4, 2006 at 4:47 pm

    Why are you such a fucking, condescending moron?

    To get this response, obviously.

    If you must know, I don’t have an opinion about Jill’s appearance one way or the other. However, I do find it a little bit odd that a feminist would care so much about her appearance that every picture I’ve seen of her shows carefully-done makeup. That said, while she does wear a lot of makeup, it’s tasteful and pretty natural-looking so I guess if she feels the need to enhance her outward appearance, that’s fine, but I don’t really understand why.

  39. January 4, 2006 at 4:49 pm

    SD, you made yourself clearer than you know.

    Let’s think about this for a moment, shall we? You’re female. You’re in law school. Why do you think you’re allowed to be in law school? Why do you think you have a chance to be a lawyer? Why do you think you’re allowed to vote? Why do you think you’re allowed to even have a frigging bank account in your own name?

    Why, it’s those silly feminists who spent their lives trying to solve imaginary “problems” (love the scare quotes!).

    Child, you are such a fool. Fifty years ago, Sandra Day O’Connor graduated third in her class at Stanford Law and the best job she could get was as a legal secretary. Fifty years before that, women couldn’t vote. And fifty years before that, Victoria Woodhull was damn near arrested as a harlot/committed to an insane asylum for trying to work as a stockbroker on Wall Street.

    And if you imagine that magically, around 1980 (when you were probably born), everything became equal and all gender discrimination went POOF! and feminism became irrelevant — well, you have no business going to grad school of any kind. You don’t even have a basic education yet.

    Feminism, child, is the best thing that ever happened to you and you don’t even know it.

  40. ilyka
    January 4, 2006 at 4:52 pm

    I guess if she feels the need to enhance her outward appearance, but I don’t really understand why.

    In all seriousness, I think maybe you don’t really understand feminism, and that’s probably not entirely your fault. If I were getting all I knew of feminism from guys like gekkozino and dooderino, I wouldn’t understand the first thing about it either.

    It’s not all unshaven unmade-up glory days on the commune. That’s a common misperception kept alive mainly by antifeminists.

  41. SD
    January 4, 2006 at 4:53 pm

    Violet,

    Your argument is old and tired.

    Fifty years ago there may have been a place for the feminist movement. However, it served its purpose and has run its course. Today, the movement seems to be largely comprised of activst woman that want to fight and want to have a cause but can’t quite seem to find one. Woman are admitted to law school in equal numbers, they get equal pay as the men in their firms, and most firms every actively recruit women (!). Other educated professions are largely the same. There is no place for the feminist movement any more and it seems to me that, by being over-sensitive, they cause more problems than they solve.

  42. TbFrg
    January 4, 2006 at 4:54 pm

    “Feminism, child, is the best thing that ever happened to you and you don’t even know it.”

    Ppl wh cll strngrs “chld” r wrthlss.

  43. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 4:55 pm

    What ilyka said, only with even more snark.

  44. SD
    January 4, 2006 at 4:56 pm

    ilyka,

    Please, then, enlighten me. Does makeup serve a purpose other than enhancing outward appearance, largely for the benefit of men? Certainly other women don’t care if you wear makeup. Your professors don’t care, your classmates don’t care, your colleagues don’t care. The only people that might care are the mne you’re trying to impress. And this is fine, provided you understand why you’re doing what you’re doing and not trying to pretend it’s for some other reason.

  45. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 4:57 pm

    nobody cares to comment on my post above huh? this is truly pathetic

  46. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 4:58 pm

    Today, the movement seems to be largely comprised of activst woman that want to fight and want to have a cause but can’t quite seem to find one.

    How about abortion slowly becoming illegal again?

    And how do you reconcile your ignorant comment about makeup and feminists with the idea that you know anything about feminism?

  47. January 4, 2006 at 5:00 pm

    nobody cares to comment on my post above huh? this is truly pathetic

    I have an idea. Scrap your night’s plans and refresh this page at least once every three seconds. For kicks, see how long you can go without refreshing the page. I bet five minutes on the upper limit.

    Eventually someone will answer you.

  48. SD
    January 4, 2006 at 5:00 pm

    155,

    This is why I was afraid to post here. Even on xoxo the revealing of IP addresses is for the most serious of offenses.

    These people don’t want discourse. They want to be threatened, they want to think everyone is attacking them. I don’t really understand it but it’s like they WANT to be afraid.

  49. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 5:00 pm

    Please, then, enlighten me. Does makeup serve a purpose other than enhancing outward appearance, largely for the benefit of men? Certainly other women don’t care if you wear makeup. Your professors don’t care, your classmates don’t care, your colleagues don’t care. The only people that might care are the mne you’re trying to impress. And this is fine, provided you understand why you’re doing what you’re doing and not trying to pretend it’s for some other reason.

    Since you hang out with law students, I’m sure you’re aware of that case where a Harrah’s employee tried–and failed–to sue her employer for discrimination because they mandated makeup.

    I used to wear makeup for two reasons:

    (1) my girlfriend.

    (2) boi, eyeliner: what could be more awesome?

    All the high femmes I know wear it because it’s shiny.

  50. January 4, 2006 at 5:01 pm

    Personal adornment (make up, clothing, style, etc.) is ART. And free expression. Not wearing make-up is also an expressive act. Isn’t feminism, at it’s core, about choices?

  51. January 4, 2006 at 5:02 pm

    can’t we all just get along?

  52. January 4, 2006 at 5:04 pm

    155,

    This is why I was afraid to post here. Even on xoxo the revealing of IP addresses is for the most serious of offenses.

    These people don’t want discourse. They want to be threatened, they want to think everyone is attacking them. I don’t really understand it but it’s like they WANT to be afraid.

    Don’t get skeered, hon, we just want you to realize your words have consequences outside of your wee board.

    Which is worse:
    a) Saying you want to hatefuck someone in a public forum.
    b) Defending the hatefucker.
    c) Posting an IP address.

    Welcome to the flame war. Stick around awhile and I’ll show you the ropes.

  53. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 5:04 pm

    Point out one terrible thing ive posted either here or on xoxo about jill! otherwise take off my IP. That would be a part of the webmasters/administrators responsibility. Unless of course this is just about hate.

  54. SD
    January 4, 2006 at 5:04 pm

    piny,

    How about abortion slowly becoming illegal again?

    This isn’t an issue about which I’m particularly concerned nor is it one that effects me very much. Besides, it doesn’t take a feminist to have a strong perspective and a willingness to fight about abortion.

    I never said that I know anything about feminism. Most of my posts have been preceded with “it seems to me”. If I’ve been lead astray, please do enlighten me.

  55. January 4, 2006 at 5:05 pm

    Point out one terrible thing ive posted either here or on xoxo about jill! otherwise take off my IP. That would be a part of the webmasters/administrators responsibility.

    I don’t do research for other people unless I’m getting paid. Sorry.

    And I’m the webmaster.

  56. January 4, 2006 at 5:06 pm

    You know, none of this would have ever happened if Jill would just put on the damn burqa!

  57. ilyka
    January 4, 2006 at 5:07 pm

    And this is fine, provided you understand why you’re doing what you’re doing and not trying to pretend it’s for some other reason.

    I agree with your point here, actually, but I don’t think I agree that makeup is worn solely to attract members of the opposite sex–that may be why some women choose to do it, certainly, but I don’t think it’s the only reason.

    I would rather let Jill explain her makeup choices than attempt to do it for her, but I can tell you why I wear makeup: It’s out of what I think is a basic human desire to put your best face forward, no pun intended. Despite “your professors don’t care, your classmates don’t care,” etc., if I’m going to a job interview, for example, obviously I want to look my best for it, and I’m not going to it without makeup, especially as I’ve inherited dark under-eye circles; without at least a little concealer, I look like I’ve been up all night, even if I’ve had 10 hours of sleep.

    It’s really only in the last two centuries that makeup has been mostly exclusive to women, anyway–at least in this country. There was nothing very natural about powdered wigs, after all.

  58. January 4, 2006 at 5:08 pm

    You know, none of this would have ever happened if Jill would just put on the damn burqa!

    No kidding, man. BTW, I’m wearing a scarf today. Bad haircut.

  59. SD
    January 4, 2006 at 5:09 pm

    Wow. Lots of posts.

    First, I’m not defending, nor would I ever defend, rapists. Further, I’m not defending whatever xoxo poster used the term “hate fuck”, though I do know that it is very different than rape. All I’m saying is that posts on xoxo should be taken in context and they are never anything to get so worked up about. Knowing this, I think that posting an IP address is the worst of those offenses.

    Yes, what a person chooses to wear on their body is free expression. Traditional makeup, however, seems to be for the purposes of hiding flaws and enhancing features that make us more attractive to the opposite sex. I can’t think of another purpose for caking your face with flesh-colored powder or liquid.

  60. Steven
    January 4, 2006 at 5:10 pm

    Just to note: as others have noted, a “hate-fuck” is not rape, but is simply angry sex, the kind that often occurs in consensual relationships.

    As such, such a comment is actually somewhat of a compliment, as it implies that the poster wants to have sex with the blogger, who is in fact fairly attractive.

    Lastly, anyone who thinks feminism means “women are people too” is either ignorant or stupid. A better definition of feminism might be “men are pigs”.

    Now, you may or may not agree with that philosophy, and it’s a free country, where you’re free to be misanthropic as well as misogynistic. However, it’s important to understand what you’re really supporting/opposing.

    P.S.: Doesn’t VA have a Democratic governor currently?

    Finally, I’m not sure if reasonable restrictions on abortion are such a terrible thing, even though I’m pro-choice myself. In fact, I think abortion should be legal until the child is able to fully provide for themselves outside the womb – say, at 7 or 8 years.

  61. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 5:10 pm

    This isn’t an issue about which I’m particularly concerned nor is it one that effects me very much. Besides, it doesn’t take a feminist to have a strong perspective and a willingness to fight about abortion.

    The first response has nothing to do with whether or not it’s an issue with which feminists, i.e., not you, should be concerned or whether or not it’s an issue that affects a great many women. The second has nothing to do with whether or not it’s something feminists can analyze and fight against as feminists.

    I never said that I know anything about feminism. Most of my posts have been preceded with “it seems to me”. If I’ve been lead astray, please do enlighten me.

    Mm-hm. That’s a euphemism for, “I’m too lazy to actually learn anything about this group of thinkers and writers, so I’m just going to say unsupported things until someone either takes my hand and leads me through or gets sick and tired of wasting time having non-discussions with a belligerent neophyte and leaves me to declare victory. Either way, I win!”

    Try Barnes & Noble if you want some interesting opinions on why makeup is not anti-feminist per se. I recommend Joan Nestle, Minnie Bruce Pratt, and Shar Rednour. People who actually want to learn don’t say, “It seems to me.” They ask real questions.

  62. January 4, 2006 at 5:12 pm

    All I’m saying is that posts on xoxo should be taken in context and they are never anything to get so worked up about. Knowing this, I think that posting an IP address is the worst of those offenses.

    I’d like someone to explain the context in which it is okay for someone to be under a microscope by anonymous classmates for nearly six months with the kind of comments that have been levied at Jill. Really. I’m dying for the explanation in which this is okay.

    The IP address thing appears to be about realizing that we aren’t so anonymous, AND that it ain’t so hard to be outed for the vile things we say under a pseudonym. I reserve the right to post what I want on my own blog. You don’t like it, don’t give me your IP address on a platter.

  63. SD
    January 4, 2006 at 5:13 pm

    ilyka,

    if I’m going to a job interview, for example, obviously I want to look my best for it, and I’m not going to it without makeup, especially as I’ve inherited dark under-eye circles; without at least a little concealer, I look like I’ve been up all night, even if I’ve had 10 hours of sleep.

    We agree, then, on at least this. I wear makeup to job interviews, too. I do this for two reasons: in case my interviewer is a man OR in case my interviewer is a woman who thinks other woman should wear makeup. I should also say that I don’t think there is anything wrong with wearing makeup to impress or attract men and though I don’t wear makeup often, outside of the aforementioned interview context, when I do it is to please my SO. But then again, I’m not a feminist and have no problems admitting that I do some things to please men.

  64. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 5:13 pm

    Lauren, im dissappointed and relieved all at the same time. My fears about feminists have been verified: you claim to be fighting the good fight, but dont even know your own friends from your enemies. Like i said, i have nothing to be worried about, i have done nothing. I simply dont like my ip out there. and i didnt post it online like jill and the pictures so dont make that comparison. I hope you get the ovaries to argue with the real haters out there instead of directing you anger at me and the others that bothered coming over here to discuss this w/ you all.

  65. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 5:14 pm

    It’s really only in the last two centuries that makeup has been mostly exclusive to women, anyway–at least in this country. There was nothing very natural about powdered wigs, after all.

    Self-tanner, lipgloss, hair gel, pomade, aftershave, cologne, hair dye for teenage boys, hair dye for greying boomers, tweezers for nose-hairs, tweezers for eyebrows….

  66. SD
    January 4, 2006 at 5:15 pm

    I’d like someone to explain the context in which it is okay for someone to be under a microscope by anonymous classmates for nearly six months with the kind of comments that have been levied at Jill. Really. I’m dying for the explanation in which this is okay.

    I never said this is okay. I also never said that it’s not okay provided the person, like Jill, has openly and willingly provided so much personal information about herself for anyone that cares to look. Personally, I didn’t get involved in this until a few hours ago when I discovered how personally y’all are taking xoxo when it is a forum that should, by all rights, probably just be igornored by anyone who offends easily.

    As an aside, you do realize, don’t you, that you’re just fueling the fire?

  67. TubaFrog
    January 4, 2006 at 5:16 pm

    I just farted.

  68. SD
    January 4, 2006 at 5:18 pm

    They ask real questions.

    *sigh* I’ve been waiting for someone to enlighten me. Either none of you actually know what you’re talking about or I’ve hit the nail on the head with my posts and you have no rebuttal.

  69. January 4, 2006 at 5:19 pm

    I never said this is okay. I also never said that it’s not okay provided the person, like Jill, has openly and willingly provided so much personal information about herself for anyone that cares to look. Personally, I didn’t get involved in this until a few hours ago when I discovered how personally y’all are taking xoxo when it is a forum that should, by all rights, probably just be igornored by anyone who offends easily.

    So, what are you defending?

    As an aside, you do realize, don’t you, that you’re just fueling the fire?

    Again, welcome to the flame war.

  70. January 4, 2006 at 5:19 pm

    I just farted.

    Word.

  71. Kristjan Wager
    January 4, 2006 at 5:20 pm

    As an aside, you do realize, don’t you, that you’re just fueling the fire?

    So, if Jill isn’t saying anything, she is accepting it, and if she is complaining, she is fueling the fire – is that it?

  72. Tanooki Joe
    January 4, 2006 at 5:21 pm

    Lastly, anyone who thinks feminism means “women are people too” is either ignorant or stupid. A better definition of feminism might be “men are pigs”.

    Hey, what are you doing with all that straw?

  73. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 5:23 pm

    But then again, I’m not a feminist and have no problems admitting that I do some things to please men.

    Again with the misconceptions! Here. Check out Twisty Faster’s Blog.

  74. Kristjan Wager
    January 4, 2006 at 5:24 pm

    All I’m saying is that posts on xoxo should be taken in context and they are never anything to get so worked up about.

    So SD, the fact that deeply disturbing posts about Jill are posted in a discussion board where homophobic, anti-semitist, racist and sexist posts are frequent is not something that Jill should get worked up about? Pray tell me, what kind of context would warrent Jill getting worked up about them, in your eyes?

  75. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 5:25 pm

    laueren??? hello???? care to comment? or are you too aware that you are in the wrong?

  76. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 5:25 pm

    *sigh* I’ve been waiting for someone to enlighten me. Either none of you actually know what you’re talking about or I’ve hit the nail on the head with my posts and you have no rebuttal.

    You admit that your posts are based on very little knowledge, and make sure to point out that you never said you knew anything about feminism. How likely do you think it is that I’ll be impressed with your insight?

    Like I said, try Barnes & Noble. I recommended three writers to you, and just linked to a blog in case your attention span’s a little meagre. Go out and find things yourself; feminists aren’t exactly the ancient fucking Etruscans.

  77. January 4, 2006 at 5:26 pm

    laueren??? hello???? care to comment? or are you too aware that you are in the wrong?

    Impossible. I am never wrong.

    What is it I’m supposed to answer?

  78. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 5:27 pm

    um my last post above…

  79. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 5:27 pm

    ill repeat:
    Lauren, im dissappointed and relieved all at the same time. My fears about feminists have been verified: you claim to be fighting the good fight, but dont even know your own friends from your enemies. Like i said, i have nothing to be worried about, i have done nothing. I simply dont like my ip out there. and i didnt post it online like jill and the pictures so dont make that comparison. I hope you get the ovaries to argue with the real haters out there instead of directing you anger at me and the others that bothered coming over here to discuss this w/ you all.

  80. January 4, 2006 at 5:29 pm

    Was there a question in this?

    Lauren, im dissappointed and relieved all at the same time. My fears about feminists have been verified: you claim to be fighting the good fight, but dont even know your own friends from your enemies. Like i said, i have nothing to be worried about, i have done nothing. I simply dont like my ip out there. and i didnt post it online like jill and the pictures so dont make that comparison. I hope you get the ovaries to argue with the real haters out there instead of directing you anger at me and the others that bothered coming over here to discuss this w/ you all.

    Nonetheless, I’m glad to have verified all of your worst fears about fehmuhnists. All in a day’s work, yo.

  81. Kristjan Wager
    January 4, 2006 at 5:30 pm

    My fears about feminists have been verified: you claim to be fighting the good fight, but dont even know your own friends from your enemies.

    So how exactly are you a friend of feminism? What type of feminism are you supporting, and what do you consider the most important goal of feminism?
    Not being the enemy, doesn’t necessarily make you a friend.

    Like i said, i have nothing to be worried about, i have done nothing. I simply dont like my ip out there. and i didnt post it online like jill and the pictures so dont make that comparison.

    Your IP is given to each and every server you visit, so you did post it – as a matter of fact, it is part of every http request your browser makes (including the POST commands).

    I hope you get the ovaries to argue with the real haters out there instead of directing you anger at me and the others that bothered coming over here to discuss this w/ you all.

    How grand of you. Are we supposed to bow, or is it enough to stare in awestruck wonder at your posts? It might come as a shock to you, but many people consider it a privilege to be able to post at other peoples’ blogs and websites. Instead you seem to be implying that Lauren should eb grateful that you are here at all.

  82. January 4, 2006 at 5:32 pm

    I never said this is okay. I also never said that it’s not okay provided the person, like Jill, has openly and willingly provided so much personal information about herself for anyone that cares to look.

    Hard to figure precisely what you do think, based on this incredibly vague statement. However, I really don’t care how much personal information anyone makes publicly available. Comments about hate-fucking and raping someone are not okay. Period the end. It boggles my mind that anyone, outside of a rapist, would even consider that they might be or be unwilling to simply state very clearly that they are not. I mean, what the hell?

    I discovered how personally y’all are taking xoxo when it is a forum that should, by all rights, probably just be igornored by anyone who offends easily.

    Taking comments about one’s personal appearance, well, personally, is hardly surprising. If people don’t want others to take their comments personally, they shouldn’t make personal comments about them in the first place.

    Furthermore, most people would take comments about hate-fucking and raping personally. Not to mention that I can’t conceive of a situation in which being offended by such comments about yourself constitutes being easily offended.

  83. Burton Canyon
    January 4, 2006 at 5:33 pm

    What seems to be absent here, throughout this discourse, is a frank and honest discussion as to whether Bill & Ted’s Excellent Adventure or Back to the Future more accurately represents the perils of time travel (from both a gendered as well as racial perspective). It seems to me that if we could all admit that this whole issue is at the heart of ALL matters, whether it be hate-fucking a goat or forcing a chimp to wear makeup and put on ice skates. Sadly, however, I fear this dialogue will remain non-existent here today. I dream, though….I dream…..

  84. Tex
    January 4, 2006 at 5:35 pm

    So, if I get it right, the compliment in the word hate fuck is:
    cheer up girls. Even tho you may be despised as people, charicatured as thinkers, threatened, defamed, and trivialized…

    you’re still very useful for sex.

  85. January 4, 2006 at 5:36 pm

    If Bill and Ted were not welcome at the blog, something would be afoot at the Circle-K.

  86. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 5:36 pm

    k..its t bd y ht ll mn jst b/c th g wh fthrd r chld cldnt stnd yr stpdt. hp grwng p n sngl prnt hm dt ld r chld t lf f crm.

  87. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 5:40 pm

    Sorry, Lauren and Jill. Feel free to delete.

  88. January 4, 2006 at 5:40 pm

    Why is there all this bitching about an IP address? It is not analogous to your street address or to your social security number; IP addresses are far more easily changed and / or masqueraded.

    You people ever heard of a proxy server? It lets you do the internet equivalent of putting on a mask of George W. Bush, holding up a 7-11 for some cheap booze and smack money, pissing on Reagan’s grave, and then getting the President impeached while you’re at it. All because you had on that stupid party-store sale mask.

    If you don’t like your IP, get a new one. Usually, all you have to do is ask, or reboot the appropriate equipment. If you’re on a static IP, you’re probably posting from some place where people would be mighty unappy to find what you’re up to anyway.

    The internet is massively shifting from an anonymous hookup at the glory hole in the restroom of the costume ball to a face-to-face hookup and pay off with a prostitute who knows your last name and your wife’s cell phone number. I’m not putting a value judgment on that trend, just saying, that’s where it’s going. And while you bozos think you’re being really smart yellin fire in the theater just to see how many people get trampled on the way out, the staff has their infrared goggles hunting your asses down.

    Clear?

  89. January 4, 2006 at 5:41 pm

    If he does lead a life of crime like his dear ol’ mom, I can think of a few lawyers I won’t be calling to represent him.

  90. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 5:41 pm

    cant take a dose of your own medicine huh? its too bad you dish it if you cant take it

  91. TubaFrog
    January 4, 2006 at 5:42 pm

    k..its t bd y ht ll mn jst b/c th g wh fthrd r chld cldnt stnd yr stpdt. hp grwng p n sngl prnt hm dt ld r chld t lf f crm.

    Removing the vowels is an odd form of censorship, just remove the shit altogether. Surely that would be easier.

  92. amaz0n
    January 4, 2006 at 5:42 pm

    Lastly, anyone who thinks feminism means “women are people too” is either ignorant or stupid. A better definition of feminism might be “men are pigs”.

    That’s right, folks. Every dictionary ever is “either ignorant or stupid.”

    fem·i·nism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fm-nzm)
    n.
    Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
    The movement organized around this belief.

    That was the American Heritage, by the way. Other dictionaries do vary, but I think you’d be hard-pressed to find one with a definition of feminism that includes the word “pig.”

    I suppose this is what my English prof meant when he went on about “cultural literacy.”

  93. TubaFrog
    January 4, 2006 at 5:43 pm

    If he does lead a life of crime like his dear ol’ mom, I can think of a few lawyers I won’t be calling to represent him.

    Few XOXO posters will end up practicing law in Muncie, you’re right.

  94. January 4, 2006 at 5:43 pm

    Disemvoweling. Awesome.

    cant take a dose of your own medicine huh? its too bad you dish it if you cant take it

    You know, if you just ignored all this it wouldn’t be such a big deal.

  95. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 5:44 pm

    see… its not a big deal…that exactly the problem

  96. January 4, 2006 at 5:45 pm

    Not quite Muncie, Tuba. Nice try though.

  97. zuzu
    January 4, 2006 at 5:46 pm

    Of course, lots of people have a worldview that encompasses some animal rights, and such a view often precludes bestiality. But on my account, arguments against bestiality really have to travel either through a conception of animal rights or a religious opposition to alternative sex. I’m skeptical that a veal-eating aetheist can construct a consistent argument against bestiality.

    Why? I think you’re limiting things here. Alternative sex generally requires two (or more) consenting partners, no? Animals are not capable of consent, no matter how much your dog humps your leg. You don’t need to oppose bestiality on religious grounds to get there.

    Moreover, people who eat meat are perfectly capable of supporting animal rights — for instance, rights to be free of cruelty, poor conditions of confinement, etc. Nothing wrong IMO in killing an animal for food if it’s been treated well and it’s killed as painlessly as possible. However, keeping an animal in poor conditions, starving it, or forcing it into sex without its consent (and very likely out of season anyway, so it might be a painful experience) is cruelty.

    Oh, and SD? For someone who claims to not know anything about feminism, you sure have a lot of opinions on what it is, what it isn’t, and whether it’s still needed. If you think it’s not, just wait until you start practicing. I’m sure that if feminism weren’t needed anymore, I would have been able to wear pants to court before 1999.

  98. Kristjan Wager
    January 4, 2006 at 5:47 pm

    Removing the vowels is an odd form of censorship, just remove the shit altogether. Surely that would be easier.

    Interesting enough, it seems that disemvoweling is a more efficient troll-repellant. Also, it enables people to actually find out what the poster wrote, if they can be bothered.
    Teressa at Making Light has used it with great cunning.

  99. TubaFrog
    January 4, 2006 at 5:48 pm

    Teressa at Making Light has used it with great cunning.

    There’s plenty of “cunning” to go around here.

  100. January 4, 2006 at 5:49 pm

    piny, nice move sending her over to Twisty, but do you think she and her friends are capable of understanding the great spinster aunt? These people are just unbelievably ill-informed and ill-educated. Of course a good deal of that ignorance could be merely a pose to get attention (certainly their demeanor lends credence to the thought), but that possibility leaves me even less impressed with their intellectual stature.

    Maybe start with baby steps, like a very, very simple introduction to feminism:

    http://www.tomatonation.com/youare.shtml

  101. amaz0n
    January 4, 2006 at 5:50 pm

    Fifty years ago there may have been a place for the feminist movement. However, it served its purpose and has run its course. … There is no place for the feminist movement any more

    I never said that I know anything about feminism

    Fifty years ago there may have been a place for the study of physics. However, it served its purpose and has run its course. There is no place for the study of physics any more.

    Of course, I never said I knew anything about physics.

  102. amaz0n
    January 4, 2006 at 5:53 pm

    Damn that forgotten end tag.

  103. Kristjan Wager
    January 4, 2006 at 5:53 pm

    You people ever heard of a proxy server? It lets you do the internet equivalent of putting on a mask of George W. Bush, holding up a 7-11 for some cheap booze and smack money, pissing on Reagan’s grave, and then getting the President impeached while you’re at it. All because you had on that stupid party-store sale mask.

    If you want to be anonymous, proxy servers are actually not particularly good, as they are usually located in the US, and thus logs all traffic. If you really want to be serious, get a vpn to a server in a small coutnry with strict privacy laws, then have a different vpn to another server in a different country with the same kind of rules.

    If you don’t like your IP, get a new one. Usually, all you have to do is ask, or reboot the appropriate equipment. If you’re on a static IP, you’re probably posting from some place where people would be mighty unappy to find what you’re up to anyway.

    Static IPs are more and more common – at least in Denmark. It has much to do with the local networks many appartment buildings put up to get the residents cheaper internet access.

  104. zuzu
    January 4, 2006 at 5:54 pm

    I’m curious: in just what context is posting about hate-fucking a specific person just peachy?

  105. Kristjan Wager
    January 4, 2006 at 5:54 pm

    There’s plenty of “cunning” to go around here.

    True, but it was Teressa that thought of the method.

  106. January 4, 2006 at 5:56 pm

    I’m curious: in just what context is posting about hate-fucking a specific person just peachy?

    When I do it.

  107. January 4, 2006 at 5:56 pm

    It’s funny how anything we say must be fueled by either hate, fear, or the desire to get laid.

    Project much, SD and 155? Your world view is showing.

  108. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 6:02 pm

    Yeah. I mean, even if I am a desperate, craven, misanthrope with no balls, that’s bullshit.

  109. ilyka
    January 4, 2006 at 6:06 pm

    Self-tanner, lipgloss, hair gel, pomade, aftershave, cologne, hair dye for teenage boys, hair dye for greying boomers, tweezers for nose-hairs, tweezers for eyebrows….

    Sorry, Piny, I should have added that trends are swinging back the other way.

    I just want the powdered wigs back, damnit.

    SD, I have to work in 30 minutes so I can’t address your points in too much depth, and for that I’m sorry. Just quickly:

    But then again, I’m not a feminist and have no problems admitting that I do some things to please men.

    I don’t think there’s anything against pleasing your partner in feminism; the idea, and I am grossly oversimplifying this ’cause I’m in a hurry, is that women should not be held to a standard of “does she please me? Is she fuckable?” by men who are not their partners.

  110. January 4, 2006 at 6:11 pm

    Flame on?

  111. January 4, 2006 at 6:14 pm

    Flame on? Flame on.

  112. Stacy
    January 4, 2006 at 6:18 pm

    Well, I don’t know if she’s around or not, but:

    Hi SD,

    To answer your post: The makeup is somewhat irrelevant at this point in time. I would say that the actions of the feminist are what counts. If someone thinks personal rape threats are funny, I’m not going to consider them to be a feminist, no matter how little makeup they wear. I would consider someone that works with women’s issues to be a feminist, even if they did wear eye shadow. Action, not appearance.

    Maybe, at some point, we should address it. Is make-up a tool of the patriarchy to keep women down? Have women reclaimed it back and now use it as a source of creative expression? Is the motivation behind makeup to appeal to men specifically or to appeal to a society at large that emphasizes a specific standard of beauty? Fuck if I know. Right now, I’m afraid I’m too busy ensuring that women don’t have to have moral judgments passed on them by pharmacists who refuse to dispense their doctor prescribed, legal birth control to worry about it. One day at a time.

    Just to shoot from the hip though, I don’t personally adhere to the logic (often sprouted by anti-feminists) that feminism is about ridding women of all their feminine traits. Personally, I like being a woman. Most feminists do, that’s why they… are feminists. It is an incorrect assumption that feminism is rigid or anti-woman (anti-human, for that matter), or that we hold up standards to which we expect all women to adhere to, and if they don’t, they are failures and worthy of scorn from the feminist community. This could not be further from the truth, and I ask that you check it out for yourself rather than listening to the people that are telling you this.

    Plus, there’s a large difference in putting on makeup to improve one’s social standing and putting it on merely for the joy of eye shadow. Otherwise, explain me. I wear makeup, if I have the desire to. I don’t wear it everyday to work. I don’t put an extra 15 minutes into my morning for makeup time. But, sometimes when I go out, I like to throw on a dress, a pair of heels, and bust out the mascara. Why would I do this? It’s not that I feel I’m hideous without it, if I did, I’d wear it to work everyday, wouldn’t I? I’m not searching for a man, I’ve had one for the past 10 years.

    Why am I doing it? Could it be so plain and simple as the fact that I merely want to? Yep, I look good in my Steve Madden shoes. And while I’m looking good in them, I’ll debate anyone on any intellectual topic they wish, and win.

    Simply put: The goal of feminism can be defined as many things. However, abandoning one’s female identity and attempting to become a man is not one of those goals.

    As for feminism being necessary – Everyone has different reasons or areas in which they have interest in. Reproductive issues are a main draw for me. I’m not sure if you’ve been paying attention, but reproductive rights are under attack in this country as of late, and I’m not talking simply about abortion, I’m talking your average, normal, every-day birth control. This is a little infuriating to me. You should check some of it out sometime, I imagine it would be a bit infuriating to anyone that actually paid attention, how could it not?

  113. David Thompson
    January 4, 2006 at 6:26 pm

    …ekas s’kcuf rof ,hO ?gnitnuoc dna 211

    !dipus gnieb pots -stenretnI het :nttA

  114. Jenny K
    January 4, 2006 at 6:32 pm

    “*sigh* I’ve been waiting for someone to enlighten me.”

    (oh, dear lord, another guy on a feminist blog demanding “enlighten me!”)

    Um, well, didya consider that the whole waiting thing is kinda part of the problem? Most enlightened people actually, you know, go out and find stuff instead of expecting it to all come to them. Actually reading more than just one post on any one of a number of feminist blogs (inlcuding this one) would be a good start. You may also want to stop and contemplate it all before you go and shoot your mouth off – that generally helps as well.

    “nobody cares to comment on my post above huh? this is truly pathetic”

    Um, yes, it is. It’s always pathetic when people are so self-centered that they take lack of interest to mean something more sinister.

  115. January 4, 2006 at 6:40 pm

    Just an observation… it has been too one sided to be a flame war. Like knives at a gun fight bad. You would think they would have brought their A game here…

    SD Says:

    I’m sure you guys aren’t “massive retards”; rather, most of you are probably quite intelligent.

    Oh you have no idea… not me of course but speaking for others I have read here…

  116. January 4, 2006 at 6:40 pm

    (oh, dear lord, another guy on a feminist blog demanding “enlighten me!”)

    Heads up, SD is not a dude.

  117. Sforza the Sforcer
    January 4, 2006 at 6:45 pm

    lol. you people are all too much.

  118. January 4, 2006 at 6:51 pm

    Please, then, enlighten me. Does makeup serve a purpose other than enhancing outward appearance, largely for the benefit of men? Certainly other women don’t care if you wear makeup. Your professors don’t care, your classmates don’t care, your colleagues don’t care. The only people that might care are the mne you’re trying to impress. And this is fine, provided you understand why you’re doing what you’re doing and not trying to pretend it’s for some other reason.

    Actually, employers do care.

    And yes, make-up does enhance outward appearance, partially for the benefit of men. I never said that I’m a walking feminist stereotype, and that all of my ideals and actions fit into your narrow definition of what feminism means. I believe that I can be a feminist and still wear make-up. I can be a feminist and still want to be perceived as attractive. It’s slightly more complicated there, but I’m not sure there’s an inherent conflict between make-up wearing and feminism. I wear make-up for the same reason that I wear clothes I like — it makes me feel like I’m presenting myself better. And for the record, I don’t even wear make-up all that often… I’ve been pretty much sworn off it since a few weeks before finals, because I just got lazy and was focused on studying. I’m not insecure without it, but when I wear make-up I usually feel more put together. Plus it’s fun. Physical adornment is part of nearly all human cultures, and while compulsory make-up wearing is certainly a feminist issue, and while I’m sure various small sexisms contribute to the fact that I wear make-up, I don’t think wearing make-up or high heels or shaving negates my feminist credentials. We all do what we have to do, even if it’s not what a perfect feminist would do absent all other cultural constraints. I like wearing make-up some days, and so I do. Other days I don’t feel like it, and so I don’t. That’s what it comes down to.

    Just to note: as others have noted, a “hate-fuck” is not rape, but is simply angry sex, the kind that often occurs in consensual relationships.

    As such, such a comment is actually somewhat of a compliment, as it implies that the poster wants to have sex with the blogger, who is in fact fairly attractive.

    Nope, sorry, not a compliment. I can’t find the thread right now, but I remember reading one a couple months back that said “I’d hate-fuck that cunt.” That is not a compliment. It’s explicitly angry and violent. While it may not exactly be rape, it’s a lot closer to rape than it is to fun, consensual, good sex.

    Lastly, anyone who thinks feminism means “women are people too” is either ignorant or stupid. A better definition of feminism might be “men are pigs”.

    Anyone who thinks this obviously hasn’t interacted with many feminists, and hasn’t read feminist literature. I’d welcome you to stick around here for a few weeks, or go back in the archives and have a good read. Feminism isn’t anti-man any more than the civil rights movement was anti-white.

  119. Thomas
    January 4, 2006 at 6:52 pm

    Zuzu, I thought about this some more, and I think I overstated my position.

    First, “alternative sex” was a term of convenience, I didn’t really use it advisedly. I was just trying to convey that religious proscriptions on sex leave a heartland that varies widely but is grouped around sex as procreation for married partners and sex as intimacy between procreative marries partners. I don’t think sex, broadly defined, requires two people. Masturbation is sex if you define sex broadly enough. However, in some religious views, it would be “alternative sex” that is proscribed.

    I certainly was not arguing that animals can give meaningful consent. I don’t believe they can. I was saying that consent on the part of an animal is irrelevant — if I can take its life without its consent, any lesser cruelty is small by comparison.

    Lots of people think that we can breed, keep and kill animals for food and clothing, but that we ought not to cause them pain while they are alive. This may be so, but I don’t think one can get there through animal rights. I’ve wrestled with this question since reading Singer’s Practical Ethics in high school, and I am unpersuaded that a set of rights can exist that supports this conclusion. I don’t see how a thing with rights can just be slaughtered at will (or for that matter, bought and sold as property). If one has any rights at all, the right to be free from arbitrary death has got to be included in the package, no?

    There are arguments against cruelty to animals, which do not travel through animals as beings with rights. Those usually turn on the way animal cruelty impacts people. I dismissed that quickly above, and now I think I did so too quickly; as I realized when I wrote that a veal-eater has a hard time opposing bestiality. One who eats only free-range beef might say that there is killing but no deprivation or cruelty involved, while the veal-eater could make no such claim.

    Maybe one can construct a decent argument that for our humanity we ought not to be cruel to animals even though we can sell or kill them. That would be an argument against some kinds of bestiality.

    I also was not thinking specifically about male penetrative sex. Take for example women who have used an animal to perform cunnilingus. While this can’t be called consensual, it would be hard to argue that it is painful or that it constitutes a deprivation.

    So, maybe there is a perfectly consistent rationalle for opposing painful sexual use of animals while wearing leather and eating meat (presumably humanely farmed leather and meat). Now that I think about it, also, I concede that there is a preserving-humanity type argument that can be made regarding even non-painful sexual use of animals. One might argue from a feminist perspective that, even though animals have no rights, the practice of interacting sexually with a thing that has no rights is really a bad thing in a partriarchal culture that has a problem listening when women say “no.” However, I think it would be hard to expand this argument beyond men. There is no broad societal problem with women raping, despite the media’s attempt to create a phony trend out of female teachers having sex with male students. So, in that sense, one could oppose men using anything living for sex without consent even if the thing itself had no rights because it reinforces the cultural problem of men committing rape.

    At the end of it all, though, I think it is still impossible to construct any good argument that a woman should not use an animal for sexual purposes that are not painful to the animal, unless one (1) believes that animals have rights that preclude killing them for food except by necessity; or (2) accepts a proscription on that kind of sex because it is sin.

  120. Thomas
    January 4, 2006 at 6:57 pm

    David, is that what passes for wit in your circle of friends, or do you choose to subject us to your “humor” knowing that it is not funny?

  121. Sforza the Sforcer
    January 4, 2006 at 7:11 pm

    Hate fucking involves railing a woman for whom you have no respect. The point is to prey upon the natually low self-esteem of said woman until she is willing to be penetrated just to feel some sort of connection with a man, even if its being railed from behind for 5 minutes by a man who wont look at your face.

    If the sex was non consensual, it would defeat the purpose of hate fucking someone, as rape can be a matter of physical force alone. To truly degrade someone and use sex as an expression of contempt, you must get them doubting their self worth until they beg for it.

  122. SD
    January 4, 2006 at 7:27 pm

    I was gone for a little while but I’m back until I return to my TV for pregame goodness.

    1. I said it before and I’ll say it again — wear your makeup but don’t pretend it’s for anything else than impressing other people. Period. If you wear it because it makes you look or feel “more put together”, that’s fine, but recognize that being “put together” is an outward appearance. It’s vanity, period, and I fail to see how that reconciles with notions of being comfortable with yourself and comfortable being a woman without caking crap on your face.

    2. Quit saying someone threatened rape. Hate fuck =/= rape. I’m more and more convinced that feminists are actively looking for threats and when none exist, they create them. (and besides — how many times do I have to say it — no one is *actually* going to come “hate fuck” anyone. Spend some time on xoxo if you want to know how the board functions in this regard)

    3. I don’t know a ton about feminism, but I know some and it’s enough to know that (1) it’s mostly knee-jerk reactionary and (2) has run its course as a useful movement.

    4. My god people, learn to have a sense of humor and quit overreacting to things you read on a message board that exists solely for entertainment and information-sharing purposes.

    5. I know you people think you’re smarter and more cultured and more aware than the average xoxo poster, but you’re not. Sorry. Most of us go to T14 law schools and many of us (me included) were admitted to NYU. The primary intellectual difference people you people and us is that we have the ability, of which you seem to be lacking, to let things roll off our backs, when appropriate.

  123. January 4, 2006 at 7:32 pm

    I think I’m going to throw up.

  124. EricP
    January 4, 2006 at 7:42 pm

    I’ve never participated in or even read that forum prior to the recent flare-up and based on the comments quoted here I never will. “Hate fuck” (I’m putting it in quotes because it is not something I would normally say and find objectionable as a term) may not be rape by definition but certainly isn’t something anyone would want to be the receiver of. In the context of a stranger (since none of them know Jill), it could only be the result of rape. Since other posts clearly suggest that she should be raped, the definition of “hate fuck” is pretty much an non-issue. Anyone who participates in the forum and didn’t call these bastards on it is at least somewhat questionable (if they saw the posts of course). If I saw that kind of thing in a forum I participated in, I would either condemn it or never visit again. That kind of shit is not acceptable.

    All that being said and as much as I hate to agree with any of them, they were invited over here to defend themselves (from my understanding) and posting the IP addresses of those who came and didn’t post nasty things here is not very cool (if they did and they were deleted pre-visibility – fuck’em). If the guys who posted about raping Jill or “hate fucking” her made an appearance that would be one thing but posting them just because they came from that site is troubling.

    Suggesting that they should have used proxies which most people don’t know about is silly. As for the fact that webservers store that information, there is a difference in knowing that it is potentially known to the site owner and having it published for everyone to see. In many cases getting a new IP today with high-speed internet isn’t trivial in the short-term and there are many freely available tools that could swamp that IP address, scan it and possibly infect the machine with viruses (especially if they are running Windows without a firewall). I wouldn’t do that and I’m confident that neither Lauren or Jill would but who knows what a reader would do. How many lurkers are just furious about this whole thing and might take action?

    Aside from the fact that it is uncool (if they have behaved themselves), there could be legal responsibility in singling out an IP address that is attacked as a result. At @120 posts, I think you have made your point about people not being anonymous and should blank out that addresses.

  125. Marksman2000
    January 4, 2006 at 7:46 pm

    “hate-fuck” is not rape, but is simply angry sex, the kind that often occurs in consensual relationships.

    Damn. Who says there’s anything wrong with our society?

  126. January 4, 2006 at 7:49 pm

    I think I’m going to throw up.

    As long as you don’t do it on my IP address.

  127. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 7:49 pm

    Thank you Eric P, somebody here can see through their rage and be reasonable

  128. January 4, 2006 at 7:51 pm

    T14. Man, I can’t tell you how impressed I am with all these credentials.

    I’m blown away. It really shows in your rhetoric.

  129. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 7:52 pm

    are you trying to promote feminism? it appears that your attitude is to belittle outsiders, not teach them about your viewpoint and win them over

  130. January 4, 2006 at 7:55 pm

    The primary intellectual difference people you people and us is that we have the ability, of which you seem to be lacking, to let things roll off our backs, when appropriate.

    …she says in her fourteenth comment in the thread.

    SD, please teach me how to be laid back like you! I always wanted to be cool, I think I have it in me.

  131. January 4, 2006 at 7:55 pm

    This is not a feminist primer. This is not Feminism 101. We’re all big kids and, if you bothered to read above, others included links for you to follow if you didn’t get the memo. I’m sorry if you’re first introduction to feminism is one that involves hate fucking and goat raping, but that ain’t my bag to carry.

    Do you promote what others have said about Jill on these boards? Do you plan on doing anything about the kind of conduct that smears you and yours? Or is this about IP addresses?

  132. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 8:01 pm

    dont “you and yours” me. its just me…as you can tell, we disagree. This is about IPs. This was wrong of you. Maybe not to the extent of Jills problems, but that doesnt make it right. I have done more than most others from xoxo to clear up this mess. I am not a moderator there, i cannot boot, restrict, or control whats said there. even if i could, i believe in a persons right to go online and say hurtful things…its not necessarily my deal, but i understand that this is what comes along with me being able to express myself on contraversial issues.

  133. amaz0n
    January 4, 2006 at 8:06 pm

    I don’t know a ton about feminism, but I know some and it’s enough to know that (1) it’s mostly knee-jerk reactionary and (2) has run its course as a useful movement.

    I know you people think you’re smarter and more cultured and more aware than the average xoxo poster, but you’re not.

    LOL.

    So those of us who bother to study a very complex subject before making wholesale judgements about it are wrong in believing that we might know more about it?

    I don’t know a ton about law, but Jack Abramoff is totally innocent and shouldn’t have been charged with anything. I am pissed. I don’t even know what he was charged with, but who cares.

    You probably think that I’m an idiot who shouldn’t be frothing at the mouth if I’m admittedly ignorant about what I’m talking about, but you’re wrong. So very wrong.

  134. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 8:06 pm

    1. I said it before and I’ll say it again — wear your makeup but don’t pretend it’s for anything else than impressing other people. Period. If you wear it because it makes you look or feel “more put together”, that’s fine, but recognize that being “put together” is an outward appearance. It’s vanity, period, and I fail to see how that reconciles with notions of being comfortable with yourself and comfortable being a woman without caking crap on your face.

    Then go do some reading. No, really.

    2. Quit saying someone threatened rape. Hate fuck =/= rape. I’m more and more convinced that feminists are actively looking for threats and when none exist, they create them. (and besides — how many times do I have to say it — no one is *actually* going to come “hate fuck” anyone. Spend some time on xoxo if you want to know how the board functions in this regard)

    Jill has, albeit unwillingly. As far as the definition of “hate fuck,” and the possible threatening meanings to be read therein, see EricP’s comment. Also, I don’t really trust guys who write shit like that–and who see hate-fucking as something they’d love to do to Jill–to know the difference between consensual and nonconsensual.

    3. I don’t know a ton about feminism, but I know some and it’s enough to know that (1) it’s mostly knee-jerk reactionary and (2) has run its course as a useful movement.

    You said a few comments ago that we shouldn’t assume you know anything. Then you begged us to enlighten you. I think I’m gonna assume you haven’t had much opportunity to learn in the interim; therefore, “some” cannot mean very much.

    4. My god people, learn to have a sense of humor and quit overreacting to things you read on a message board that exists solely for entertainment and information-sharing purposes.

    I have one, thanks. That’s one of the many reasons these people are so offensive in my sight: they think they’re funny.

    5. I know you people think you’re smarter and more cultured and more aware than the average xoxo poster, but you’re not. Sorry. Most of us go to T14 law schools and many of us (me included) were admitted to NYU. The primary intellectual difference people you people and us is that we have the ability, of which you seem to be lacking, to let things roll off our backs, when appropriate.

    Well, no, we don’t. We do think we’re smarter than the people at xanth, which is neither intelligent, literate, or aware. I went to one of those schools myself, albeit not its law school. If the people I met there, the grad students I’ve encountered in other fora, and you are any indication, that’s not worth much.

  135. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 8:08 pm

    I have done more than most others from xoxo to clear up this mess.

    *cgh* lf f crm *cgh*

  136. Jenny K
    January 4, 2006 at 8:08 pm

    “Heads up, SD is not a dude”

    oops, my bad (blushes) – so the girls are doing it now too?

  137. January 4, 2006 at 8:10 pm

    Done, 155. I’m looking forward to all the work you’ll be doing to “clear up this mess.”

  138. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 8:14 pm

    thnx, funny enough….now everyone knows which was mine…

  139. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 8:14 pm

    Oh, look, it’s page 3 from the anti-feminist playbook:

    When all else fails, they’re the problem.

    Let’s go to tape, shall we?

    Comment #16 on the last related thread, by yrslf:

    feminists are the most and bitter opinionated people on planet earth. Their whole existence revolves around militant hate towards men or anyone who disagrees w/ their opinions. How can you complain? you are just getting a dose of their own medicine.

    Comment 69, same thread, also yrslf:

    for the guys: You really need to figure out a new way to get laid. Yes I love my mother and sister, and believe they are equal if not better than me, and would be upset if this happened to them. But this does not mean that I need to suck up to feminists. And please, for the sake of GOD do not call yourselves feminists – that would be pathetic and hypocritical.

    You’re not interested in learning a fucking thing from Lauren, Jill, or anyone else here. You believe exactly what you want to believe, and you wouldn’t change your mind if Catherine MacKinnon and Robin Morgan showed up at your door tomorrow morning bearing homemade lemon bars and footrub coupons redeemable at the local Planned Parenthood. You’ve got issues with feminists that have nothing to do with feminists themselves.

  140. January 4, 2006 at 8:15 pm

    I know you people think you’re smarter and more cultured and more aware than the average xoxo poster, but you’re not.

    YOU people???

    RACIST!!!!!111!!!

  141. EricP
    January 4, 2006 at 8:16 pm

    SD, aside from visiting other sites, just lurk a bit or read some older posts. I don’t always or even regularly agree with everything that is said but it can provide an education in mainstream feminism. Mainstream feminism is pretty lefty with some slight libertarian tendancies but, as a conservative/libertarian male, I tend to disagree more with the solutions than the listed problems. There are obviously some feminists who are pretty extreme (just like any belief system) but the ones around here aren’t so bad and it will give you an idea of how they fit into every day life.

  142. 155
    January 4, 2006 at 8:17 pm

    no my friend…i dont know who those people are. Fact is, i have gotten this kind of treatment from feminists b4. hence, im resistant to listen to their opinions with a clear mind and not allow the to fit into my predetermined mold

  143. January 4, 2006 at 8:22 pm

    btw, my throwing up was in response to Sforza’s definition of hate-fucking. That just made me ill. SD’s post slipped in between.

    (not that anyone cares about my nausea, but whatever)

  144. amaz0n
    January 4, 2006 at 8:23 pm

    hence, im resistant to listen to their opinions with a clear mind and not allow the to fit into my predetermined mold

    What does that even mean?

  145. ilyka
    January 4, 2006 at 8:26 pm

    Wow, I’m really glad I keep sucking minutes out of my day to respond to SD. Let’s run the checklist:

    Item 1 of her points is the “I found this one detail that could conceivably imply you’re a hypocrite, so I’m going to disregard anything else you say. Because you’re a hypocrite,” argument.

    Item 2 is the “No one actually said what you think they said, because hate fucking is not rape, quit overreacting” argument. Demonstrably wrong, given that one poster’s advice on Jill was to “rape her immediately,” number one. And number two, telling someone you’d hate fuck them (1) is not a compliment (2) is clearly “meant to annoy or alarm,” per (again) the NY state code on harassment and (3) takes on ominous overtones when you factor in that some of these people know Jill and see her around campus regularly.

    Item 3 is the “I take it back, I actually do know stuff about feminism, and even though every word I type proves that the stuff I know IS INCORRECT, I still know more than you and by the way, feminazis suck” argument.

    Item 4 is the “You all need to get a sense of humor” argument. It’s really funny as long as it’s being done to someone else. I guess SD would think it equally hilarious if this were all about her. Oh, wait, it would NEVER be all about her, because she’s all about pleasing men, unlike the hateful bitches here.

    Item 5 is the “I am too smarter than you” argument. Which I think you used already, SD, with the massive retards quip.

    All these [cough] “arguments” basically amount to ad hominem. So I doubt I’m alone in thinking SD’s not gonna do so well in her chosen profession if she doesn’t work a whole lot harder on crafting actual, nonfallacious arguments.

    Maybe better forego the game tonight. I think someone has a lot more studying to do.

  146. January 4, 2006 at 8:27 pm

    no my friend…i dont know who those people are. Fact is, i have gotten this kind of treatment from feminists b4. hence, im resistant to listen to their opinions with a clear mind and not allow the to fit into my predetermined mold

    Which came first, the chicken or the egg? I don’t get the “I get harsh treatment from feminists so I just lash out” excuse because it is circular logic. I lash out because i get harsh treatment because i lash out because i get harsh treatment because i lash out because… ?

  147. piny
    January 4, 2006 at 8:27 pm

    hence, im resistant to listen to their opinions with a clear mind and not allow the to fit into my predetermined mold

    What does that even mean?

    Either, “I left the cake out in the rain,” or, “I was accepted into NYU.”

  148. January 4, 2006 at 8:31 pm

    piny, WORD! dude, you made me laugh!

  149. January 4, 2006 at 8:39 pm

    Most of us go to T14 law schools and many of us (me included) were admitted to NYU.

    You’re saying people like you are the prosecuting attorneys of the future?

    Damn. I am so becoming a career criminal. You couldn’t argue a persuasive case against me if I strangled someone at Yankee Stadium during game Seven of the Series, and they caught it on the Jumbotron.

  150. Magnus Malmborn
    January 4, 2006 at 8:44 pm

    ilyka, Chris
    I think you are wrong in your assessment of her prospects. Given the sorry state of US courts, character assassination seems to be a working strategy. Just look at rape trials.
    *shakes head*

  151. amaz0n
    January 4, 2006 at 8:46 pm

    Damn. I am so becoming a career criminal. You couldn’t argue a persuasive case against me if I strangled someone at Yankee Stadium during game Seven of the Series, and they caught it on the Jumbotron.

    Members of the jury, I might not know much about this case and every argument I’ve made today amounts to little more than “because I say so and I went to NYU, so I’m right.” But this defendant is guilty. Because I say so, and I went to NYU.

  152. evilchemistry
    January 4, 2006 at 8:47 pm

    SD said: If you must know, I don’t have an opinion about Jill’s appearance one way or the other.
    Then SD said a sentence or two later: That said, while she does wear a lot of makeup, it’s tasteful and pretty natural-looking

    SD, you are disingenuous with your “it seems to me” and “don’t have an opinion” bullshit. Your point 3 above first insinuated that Jill’s makeup makes her look ugly. Later in the same point you defined to much makeup as “not flattering”. WTF? Color me confused, I thought all you xoxo types were “intellectuals and thinkers”.

    As many of you conservatarians liked to say back in the ’90’s, “words have meanings”. I think many of you were referring to the specific word “is”. Remember that bit of fun.

    Then later you type this: Most of us go to T14 law schools and many of us (me included) were admitted to NYU.

    To which I say Big Fucking Deal, you’ve shown your level of intelligence right here. Another example: The Virgin Ben, not a heavy intellectual hitter, at Harvard Law.

  153. EricP
    January 4, 2006 at 8:49 pm

    btw, my throwing up was in response to Sforza’s definition of hate-fucking. That just made me ill. SD’s post slipped in between.

    (not that anyone cares about my nausea, but whatever)

    You are surprised that men would fuck a women they hate just to say “I hate you” as they finish? I know a guy whose ex-girlfriend seduced him, just to give him a BJ and took a strong bite. Just for a “fuck-you”. He still has the scar on his penis head 10 years later. They broke up because he cheated on her a couple of years earlier – I don’t approve of what he did but… Nothing surprises me anymore.

  154. Magnus Malmborn
    January 4, 2006 at 8:49 pm

    No amaz0n,

    “she’s a feminizt, and that proves she want’s to divorce her husband, kill her children and become a lesbian.”

  155. Julie
    January 4, 2006 at 8:56 pm

    Jill, there’s not much I can say except that I am sorry you have to put up with this bullshit.

  156. January 4, 2006 at 9:15 pm

    Again, still reeling that these people are law students. I can’t tell if I am more appalled at their mindless hostility or their stupidity. I guess it’s the combination of both. The problem is that I am sure they show up for their law firm interviews all cleaned up and shiny and polite. How do I pick them out when they come to my firm?

  157. January 4, 2006 at 9:15 pm

    I was going to respond to SD’s latest, but Ilyka and Hubris already said everything I would have, only better.

  158. January 4, 2006 at 9:23 pm

    thnx, funny enough….now everyone knows which was mine…

    Beggars can’t be choosers.

  159. EricP
    January 4, 2006 at 9:31 pm

    Thank you Eric P, somebody here can see through their rage and be reasonable

    How about you do something nice as a turn around. As a regular in those forums, respond to that nose ring is fucking money, rape her immediately and I really want to kick her in the box for some reason. I’ll accept that “hate fuck” can have different meanings in this case but those two posts definitely crossed the line.

    They are old posts and you are being asked to do it in a feminist(e) forum so I know it will stand out and be uncomfortable but at least if anyone finds them in the future your name will stand out as having stated that they crossed the line. I was nice and Lauren did remove your IP so…

  160. EricP
    January 4, 2006 at 9:42 pm

    thnx, funny enough….now everyone knows which was mine…

    At least it is gone. Even if someone saved it, the point has been made that you haven’t been a jerk. The counter-point is that the others have been singled out as being really bad.

  161. karolena
    January 4, 2006 at 9:52 pm

    I want to forcefully jam a dildo up [SD’s real name]’s ass.

    …. wait, what’s your problem? I never said it was nonconsensual!! you anti-feminists need to lighten up.

  162. January 4, 2006 at 9:54 pm

    Even if someone saved it, the point has been made that you haven’t been a jerk.

    Well, except for the “future life of crime” wish on my son. Good thing I’m a nice person, eh?

  163. January 4, 2006 at 10:09 pm

    Flame threads like this remind me that the gigantic project the enlightened, reality-based community needs to engage in is to deconstruct the last 20 years of right-wing propaganda. Can we do that? Please? Jesus H. Christ on a fucking stick. These kids have had the Rush Limbaugh line poured into their heads all their lives and they think it’s true. They think a feminazi is a real thing, not something Rush dreamed up and pulled out of his ass. They’ve been breathing propaganda so long they think it’s pure oxygen and the truth is toxic ammonia.

    For an historian, it’s been fascinating to observe first-hand the propagandistic derailment of a culture over these past couple of decades. When I think like an academic, it’s…. interesting. When I remember that I’m an American and a woman and a human being…it just hurts.

  164. Molly
    January 4, 2006 at 10:10 pm

    I normally just lurk about, but holy shit.

    1. I said it before and I’ll say it again — wear your makeup but don’t pretend it’s for anything else than impressing other people. Period. If you wear it because it makes you look or feel “more put together”, that’s fine, but recognize that being “put together” is an outward appearance. It’s vanity, period, and I fail to see how that reconciles with notions of being comfortable with yourself and comfortable being a woman without caking crap on your face.

    Yes, because I’m sure you know exactly why Jill does what she does. What makes you an expert on someone else’s motivation?

    4. My god people, learn to have a sense of humor and quit overreacting to things you read on a message board that exists solely for entertainment and information-sharing purposes

    I don’t find creepy, stalkerish, threatening messages to be humorous myself.

  165. ilyka
    January 4, 2006 at 10:10 pm

    Well, except for the “future life of crime” wish on my son.

    In his defense, it is true that E. would make the most adorable gangsta ever.

  166. Ivan
    January 4, 2006 at 10:13 pm

    Just a note to SD….

    in the same thread as the lovely term “Hate fuck” is

    “that nose ring is fucking money, rape her immediately”

    so even if “Hate-fuck that cunt” isn’t the same as rape (I think it is) they explicitly said Jill should be raped.

    As I said in the last thread, no guy I know would think about writing that. sickeningly stupid.

  167. ilyka
    January 4, 2006 at 10:15 pm

    These kids have had the Rush Limbaugh line poured into their heads all their lives and they think it’s true. They think a feminazi is a real thing, not something Rush dreamed up and pulled out of his ass. They’ve been breathing propaganda so long they think it’s pure oxygen and the truth is toxic ammonia.

    Even I, the registered Republican, have got to agree with you wholeheartedly there.

    I used to ignore his shit because it was like “C’mon, who’d grant any credibility to the guy who claimed America has more trees now than when Columbus showed up?” but apparently the answer to that question was “Way, way, way too many bitter little men and a whole bunch of female antifeminist apologists.”

  168. January 4, 2006 at 10:38 pm

    “…My fears about feminists have been verified: you claim to be fighting the good fight, but dont even know your own friends from your enemies….”

    See, this is another place where the anti-feminists’ argumemts break down.

    They cannot even *buy* the clue.

    155, lets try to make this as simple as possible.

    If you walk into a discussion where
    – person (a) has just been describing, in livid and imagined detail, just how physically unattractive person (b) is, and that,
    – because person (b) disagrees with person (a) about something,
    – that person (a) feels it is completly justifiable to stalk person(b), and also to make threats about how they will rape them (and “hate-rape” IS STILL RAPE, especially if the person who will be the subject of that rape does not know person threatening the rape, so there is *no* assumption of “consent”), and
    – you *defend* this vile behaviour, either directly or by “well, they really don’t mean *that,* they’re really trying to compliment you on your looks,”
    – you *are* going to be told to “piss off” at the very least.

    There is *no* set of conditions where you are going to be perceived, Hell, there is no way that you can be *considered* as a “friend,” given those constraints

    Or, do you *approve* of stalking and/or rape, and think that these are *laudable” accomplishmemnts and goals?

    I think any of your future clients will be better of Pro Se, fools as they would be.

    And this comment is directed to SD: if you think that the “need for feminism” was over 50 years ago you are going to be in a really sorry world of hurt when you finally move into the professional sphere.

  169. January 4, 2006 at 10:44 pm

    Removing the vowels is an odd form of censorship, just remove the shit altogether. Surely that would be easier

    But devowelization just more fun.

    Besides, the excess vowels can be shipped off to Serbia or suchlike, where there is Great Vowel Shortage, which dates back to the Great Vowel Shift several centuries ago.

  170. January 4, 2006 at 10:58 pm

    Will my IP show up?

    That sounds like, “Is the teacher looking?”

    Those guys are sick.

  171. zuzu
    January 4, 2006 at 11:27 pm

    T14? I guess that’s for when your school isn’t in the Top Ten and you feel the need to trumpet your credentials to feel superior.

    And just to bring the bizarre bestiality bit back into the conversation,

    I certainly was not arguing that animals can give meaningful consent. I don’t believe they can. I was saying that consent on the part of an animal is irrelevant — if I can take its life without its consent, any lesser cruelty is small by comparison.

    Last year, I fostered a rescue dog who had been starved so that he could barely stand. You could see every last vertebra, and he didn’t even have fat in the pads of his feet. It takes weeks, even months for a dog to get to the point where he weighs less than half what he should. I just can’t agree that that kind of cruelty is small in comparison to a swift and painless death. I also can’t agree that there is no room in an ethical framework for both eating animals (we are predators, after all) and believing that causing pain or killing for sport is unethical.

  172. doc lewis
    January 4, 2006 at 11:52 pm

    I don’t really have anything to add to this thread, and I kind of hate to even comment on this act in particular, but…

    I have been the recipient of a hate fucking by an ex girlfriend. Just sayin’ that women can do it too.

  173. mythago
    January 5, 2006 at 1:06 am

    What the fuck has happened?

    There are actually less of these bozos than there used to be. Generally, there are two large groups of people who go to law school: the liberal-arts majors who want to save the world, and the B-school assclowns who see a JD as a ticket to make money and pork bimbos.

  174. doc lewis
    January 5, 2006 at 1:48 am

    Mythago, that is pretty much dead on. Although you forgot to mention that neither group is particularly successful.

  175. January 5, 2006 at 2:02 am

    Mythago, that is pretty much dead on. Although you forgot to mention that neither group is particularly successful.

    You’ve got to have goals, I suppose.

  176. anashi
    January 5, 2006 at 6:59 am

    Doc Lewis, no one gives a shit. And that wasn’t all that was said about Jill to imply rape on that lovely thread. G hte fck yrslf.

  177. Thomas
    January 5, 2006 at 7:20 am

    Zuzu, I partially conceded. I was wrong about the non-animal-rights part. You said,

    I also can’t agree that there is no room in an ethical framework for both eating animals (we are predators, after all) and believing that causing pain or killing for sport is unethical.

    I conceded I was wrong about that. There is room, in my view, for such a framework as long as it travels through the idea that some things we ought not to do to animals because of what it does to humans, and not through a conception of animal rights.

    I just can’t agree that that kind of cruelty is small in comparison to a swift and painless death.

    I see what you’re saying; certainly it is more cruel to torture than to simply kill. But I’m still skeptical that something that can’t claim a right to be free from arbitrary killing can claim a right to be free of anything. If we can kill it for our convenience, than from a rights standpoint it’s just a thing.

    Anyway, on the core question of bestiality, do you think there is an issue with a woman having non-painful sexual contact with an animal?

  178. David Thompson
    January 5, 2006 at 8:21 am

    C’mon, who’d grant any credibility to the guy who claimed America has more trees now than when Columbus showed up?

    That’s not as absurd an assertion as it might seem at first glance.

  179. January 5, 2006 at 8:29 am

    I can’t believe someone’s trying to defend “hate fuck”. What a mental midget and coward. Sure, it’s fun to sit around with the guys pretending you’re superior to women and making jokes about rape and other aggressive acts against women, but someone actually calls you on it and you hide under the bed like babies. “I’m not a member of the he-man woman-haters club! Waaaah! Don’t call me a misogynist just because I hate women!”

    God, I hate people like that. Same with racists who won’t own it. Even the fucking KKK pretends they aren’t racist. Own your shit, idiots. You either think you’re right and women are scum or you know you’re wrong and it’s time to quit hating on women.

  180. January 5, 2006 at 10:08 am

    . I said it before and I’ll say it again — wear your makeup but don’t pretend it’s for anything else than impressing other people. Period.

    I don’t get why it matters what makeup Jill wears and why. Because if she ever, on any day, wears any makeup to impress people, her feminist credentials should be pulled and any claim she makes to have any self-esteem should be suspect? Because it’s OK to say she should be raped for her nose ring as long as she wore the nose ring to impress people? Or what? The state of Jill’s make up is a giant red herring.

  181. zuzu
    January 5, 2006 at 10:29 am

    Generally, there are two large groups of people who go to law school: the liberal-arts majors who want to save the world, and the B-school assclowns who see a JD as a ticket to make money and pork bimbos.

    And then those B-school assclowns realize that they should have become investment bankers if they wanted to make real scratch.

  182. Thomas
    January 5, 2006 at 11:29 am

    And then those B-school assclowns realize that they should have become investment bankers if they wanted to make real scratch.

    And that’s the truth. Because how much you make is often simply proportional to how close you are to the trough.

  183. another lynne
    January 5, 2006 at 12:52 pm

    OK. I’ve got all kinds of problems with what’s going on here, for a whole lotta reasons. And like Amanda’s post over on Pandagon, (about “ugliness”) I’m not sure what I have to say here will be anything less than some mashed up ramble, but here goes.

    The stuff on xoxo is unpardonable excrement. And we can talk intellectually about what’s behind the rape/hate-fucking/ugliness comments all we want, but personally, I don’t expect it to make a difference. Anyone who would make those comments has a distinct lack of empathy and compassion for their fellow human beings.

    I find it very disturbing that these people are future attorneys. They seem (from what I’ve read so far) unable to form a logical defense of their position, and so resort to “well, I may have said that, but I didn’t mean it, so why are you so upset?”. This is, at best, juvenille. And doesn’t bode well for the legal system.

    Where I get caught up in ambivalence is how to address those commenters who claim to know nothing about feminism. Yes, this blog certainly *is* advanced feminism. But still, shouldn’t we be willing to educate someone when they ask us? (Regardless of how facetious they may be when doing so) OTOH, so often this type of “commenting” is really just a way to drag strawfeminist out for them to ridicule and preach the hate, I don’t want to dignify that stuff with a response.

    And at what point do we (reasonably) bring the smackdown to this nonsense? If the person is starting from the belief that feminism is *truly* about women being better than men, it takes an awful lot of work to teach them otherwise. (speaking from personal experience).

  184. January 5, 2006 at 12:58 pm

    what the f? See if I let another day go by without keeping up with the internets. Look at all I’ve missed.

    Calling attractive women ugly makes all you kids look stupid. There are plenty of stereotype-fulfilling bulldykes out there – why don’t you cowards go take it up in person?

    Jill’s hotness is obvious, and Lauren’s haircut is cute.

  185. January 5, 2006 at 1:00 pm

    I wish I’d never heard of that idiotic board.

  186. Stacy
    January 5, 2006 at 1:09 pm

    SD is just not being honest.

    Because really, if I were to walk up to her one day, and prattle off some anti-makeup rhetoric:

    “I notice you are wearing makeup. I just wanted you to know that painting your face to look pleasing to men tells me that you are a weak vessel of the patriarchy that has only one goal, to serve men. I find your makeup wearing offensive to all strong women everywhere… blah blah blah…”

    What do you think someone’s reaction to that would be? I think we all know – somewhere along the lines of “judgemental feminazi bitch”. So pretty much, feminists are damned if we do (liking makeup makes us hypocrits) and damned if we don’t (dislike of makeup makes us judgmental and elitist).

    Also, if SD were sitting on a bus, and overheard two strange men talking about her, and one of them mentioned how they’d love to “hate fuck that cunt” – I doubt SD would be laughing. In fact, I’m willing to bet that SD would be getting off at the next stop. There is a world of difference to what is “humorous” amongst friends and what is “humorous” amoungst strangers.

    As for hate-fucking being rape, I’d just like to point out that the goal of both acts are to degrade and humiliate someone sexually, in other words, violate someone in what if perceived to be the most intimate way possible, and that in itself makes both vile and threatening.

    By the way, I’m still waiting for SD to enlighten me as to my motivation for wearing mascara? (Post# 112)

  187. January 5, 2006 at 1:13 pm

    Another Lynne,

    You raise a good point regarding educating people who are asking for it, but responsibility for ignorance lies with the ignorant. If they were sincere in looking for enlightenment they would ask nicer, and, more importantly, all of the calm, reasoned discussion on feministe far outweighs the angry flaming. It’s all there for a reasonable reader to sift through.

  188. Thomas
    January 5, 2006 at 1:30 pm

    Zuzu, apparently someone at Nerve wants into our conversation. Unfortunately, as is often the case with Rinella, he has very little to add.

  189. another lynne
    January 5, 2006 at 1:53 pm

    other Ryan –

    First, while I may not comment on feministe much, I’ve been reading for awhile, so I just want to be clear that I’m very aware of the excellent work Jill and Lauren do. (Not to mention the high level of discourse that’s often found in the comments).

    As to the responsibility of the ignorant…well, first you have to know that you’re ignorant. And that’s the point that I was trying to get to. You know, and I know that feminism has nothing to do with man-hating. But pretend for a moment that *everything* you ever encountered (both inside and outside the home) taught that it was. You’d have an awful lot of unlearning to do, before you could even start to ask for an education.

    And how are we to judge sincerity? Who decides? Having a teen-aged son, I can honestly tell you that being snarky and cynical is so much a part of that persona, that it comes out even when he’s being sincere.

    How hard do we want to make this for people to understand? One of the beatings that feminism takes routinely is that it is elitist you know…

  190. January 5, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    Lynne and Ryan, I moved this question to the top of the blog, FYI. I’d love to see your ideas there.

  191. doc lewis
    January 5, 2006 at 5:11 pm

    anashi, I like how your critique of our board’s personal attacks on Jill is to make personal attacks on me. it’s a good thing you surround yourself on this board with people that know what they’re talking about, are at least fairly well read/educated, and know what they believe in. you clearly don’t.

  192. January 5, 2006 at 5:12 pm

    Doc, I’d like your opinion on “your board’s” personal attacks on Jill. Share?

  193. Marksman2000
    January 5, 2006 at 5:34 pm

    Interesting tactics on Jill’s part. She highlights insults and threats directed at her on another site to not only pump up the traffic (and posts) on here, but to bolster criticism towards those who attacked her. Nice.

    We’re flirting with 200+ posts on this thread! Maybe feministe.com will get a generous sponsor because of all this traffic. Then Jill could actually make money from being insulted. It’s like charging someone $5 every time they call you an asshole.

  194. doc lewis
    January 5, 2006 at 5:53 pm

    My opinion? I missed most of this when it actually started because I was on break, so I’m a little late to the party. I missed the earlier things regarding NYU because I don’t go there and tend to gloss over the more school-specific threads. I like gossip that I can at least connect with, thanks. And lord knows I don’t consider myself much of a representative of “my board” to begin with. That being said, I think I post on XO in the way that a majority of posters do – as a form of stress relief or study break in the library/coffee shop/back alley I’m studying in. People revel in being anonymous on XO because alot of what goes on there is people discussing and advising on law school. Inevitably that extends to talking about specific teachers and classmates. Unfortunately… give some people a little anonymity, and it eventually gets exploited.

    I’ve been posting there since when I was looking at what school I wanted to attend. Plenty of people where there before me and still post as successful attorneys, bitter failures, and even dropouts. While new prospective students arrive daily, others come who never plan on going to law school. The population making up the board has changed, but the commitment by the board to allowing it’s posters to speak their minds with little to no censorship has remained. Is that a good thing? Clearly, it can result in people being emotionally hurt or offended by the typing of some.

    Overall, I think the popularity of the board has always been based in the fact that you knew people were speaking their minds freely. You could (and can) get straight shit from a variety of people on topics both school related and not. That’s what the board has always been about. But you need a BS filter. To say it’s an acquired taste is an enormous understatement. Saying they saw Jill in class is fine to me. I posted when I saw a celebrity at Starbucks. As I’ve already posted, the term ‘hate fuck’ is fine with me, but I think I have a different definition than some of your posters (I don’t think it’s necessarily demeaning or “defiling an intimate act”.) Posters crossing the line to stalking? If that happened… not cool. Someone suggesting they want to rape her? Not funny. Really not funny, even. But also not going to get them expelled/jailed/executed or whatever else was proposed.

    Our arrival over here was the equivalent of a fart in church because our comments are the poral opposite of “your board’s”; while people here tend to strive to post eloquent retorts that really add to the discussion, XO posters came over and posted stream of conscious flaming (“Oooh, feminists are hairy man haters”). I think it’s funny that I now just wrote all this to justify our dick and fart jokes, while the people here are responding with threats of violence and “fuck you”.

    HTH

  195. January 5, 2006 at 6:00 pm

    No need to justify dick and fart jokes. We make them enough here. As for the fuck yous, welcome to the internet.

    However, I think there is a rather considerable difference between saying “I’d hate fuck that chick,” and “I sat next to that chick in class. I’d like to hate fuck her,” repeatedly over six months of time. One is rude but relatively harmless. The other is rude and a potential threat to another’s safety. Do you really fault anyone about feeling skeeved out knowing their classmates are posting about him/her in this manner?

  196. January 5, 2006 at 6:02 pm

    We’re flirting with 200+ posts on this thread! Maybe feministe.com will get a generous sponsor because of all this traffic. Then Jill could actually make money from being insulted. It’s like charging someone $5 every time they call you an asshole.

    Actually, I get paid back for server hosting and you people crashing my databases. ;)

  197. doc lewis
    January 5, 2006 at 6:05 pm

    alot of your cohorts seem to think the very words ‘hate fuck’ are a crime against humanity

    and if you didn’t know, guys will talk about people they would like to have physical relations with. not just celebrities, but people they go to school with. welcome to the male mind.

  198. January 5, 2006 at 6:05 pm

    Don’t go using any broad brushes.

  199. doc lewis
    January 5, 2006 at 6:07 pm

    welcome to the internet ;) !!!!!!

  200. January 5, 2006 at 6:09 pm

    I’d like to think more of your rhetorical skills than that. ;) !!!!!!

  201. doc lewis
    January 5, 2006 at 6:20 pm

    aw… I thought it was a pretty good use of your own condescending shot at me. besides, I’m on break.

    but I have to go anyway. cooking dinner for my girlfriend tonight. yup, she associates with someone who posts on a (hmm, what all is our site again?) racist, sexist, misogynistic, anti-love, pro-stalking, anti-family, anti-puppy website.

  202. Chet
    January 5, 2006 at 6:21 pm

    What the hell is a “hate fuck”, anyway? Is that like when you’re in such a strong rivalry with an attractive person that the anger and competition boils over for the both of you to really energetic sex? Or like when you and your wife are so pissed at each other that you just fall right into bed? Cuz those are fun.

    Then again, judging from the mouth-breathers posting in that thread, I bet not. I’d definately treat it as a threatened rape in the absence of a clear contextual definition otherwise, like any other threat of violence, but as a lexicographic problem, is there any reason to treat this conclusively as a synonym for “rape”?

  203. doc lewis
    January 5, 2006 at 6:23 pm

    “Or like when you and your wife are so pissed at each other that you just fall right into bed? Cuz those are fun.”

    this is EXACTLY WHAT IT IS.

    Too bad you admitted to enjoying it Chet. you are now Part Of The Problem.

  204. January 5, 2006 at 6:23 pm

    aw… I thought it was a pretty good use of your own condescending shot at me. besides, I’m on break.

    Aw, shucks.

    but I have to go anyway. cooking dinner for my girlfriend tonight. yup, she associates with someone who posts on a (hmm, what all is our site again?) racist, sexist, misogynistic, anti-love, pro-stalking, anti-family, anti-puppy website.

    I’m about to fix dinner myself: puppies. We do have something in common!

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