<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Beating the Strawfeminist to Death</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:34:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29337</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2006 23:09:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29337</guid>
		<description>Sally, that comment is an observation of facts. If a neutrally-toned recapitulation of empirical truth is finger-wagging, then I am Marie of Romania.

La Lubu, I have never claimed that I am not a Christian. I have said that I am a Catholic (true) and I have said that I am not a very good Christian (also true).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sally, that comment is an observation of facts. If a neutrally-toned recapitulation of empirical truth is finger-wagging, then I am Marie of Romania.</p>
<p>La Lubu, I have never claimed that I am not a Christian. I have said that I am a Catholic (true) and I have said that I am not a very good Christian (also true).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: La Lubu</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29335</link>
		<dc:creator>La Lubu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29335</guid>
		<description>Gee, I remember that one. ;-)

Robert has a split-personality on religion too; on some blogs he&#039;s &quot;Catholic&quot; and on others he says he&#039;s not Christian. Go figure!

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gee, I remember that one. ;-)</p>
<p>Robert has a split-personality on religion too; on some blogs he&#8217;s &#8220;Catholic&#8221; and on others he says he&#8217;s not Christian. Go figure!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sally</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29332</link>
		<dc:creator>Sally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29332</guid>
		<description>For instance:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Bottom line:

Single-parent families have higher levels of dysfunction than two-parent families.

Single-parent families use higher levels of social services than two-parent families.

There is little to no credible dispute on these points. What disputes do exist center around peripheral issues.

You may believe whatever gets you through the day, but single parent families are not functionally equivalent to two-parent families in terms of outcomes and in terms of the social inputs required to get those outcomes. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now, you may say that you&#039;re talking about single-parent families rather than about young mothers.  But Lauren is a single parent, as you must know, as a regular reader of this blog.   So I suspect that you held her up as a model not because you think the best plan for women is to get pregnant while in high school, but because you savor the opportunity to play one woman here off of other ones.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For instance:</p>
<blockquote><p>Bottom line:</p>
<p>Single-parent families have higher levels of dysfunction than two-parent families.</p>
<p>Single-parent families use higher levels of social services than two-parent families.</p>
<p>There is little to no credible dispute on these points. What disputes do exist center around peripheral issues.</p>
<p>You may believe whatever gets you through the day, but single parent families are not functionally equivalent to two-parent families in terms of outcomes and in terms of the social inputs required to get those outcomes. </p></blockquote>
<p>Now, you may say that you&#8217;re talking about single-parent families rather than about young mothers.  But Lauren is a single parent, as you must know, as a regular reader of this blog.   So I suspect that you held her up as a model not because you think the best plan for women is to get pregnant while in high school, but because you savor the opportunity to play one woman here off of other ones.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29330</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2006 22:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29330</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I can think of several other instances in which he’s wagged his finger at women who have made the choice that Lauren made. I can think of several other times when he’s suggested that it’s perfectly groovy to stigmitize young single mothers&lt;/i&gt;

Cite one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I can think of several other instances in which he’s wagged his finger at women who have made the choice that Lauren made. I can think of several other times when he’s suggested that it’s perfectly groovy to stigmitize young single mothers</i></p>
<p>Cite one.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sally</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29329</link>
		<dc:creator>Sally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29329</guid>
		<description>I think what&#039;s funny about Robert&#039;s comment is that I can think of several other instances in which he&#039;s wagged his finger at women who have made the choice that Lauren made.  I can think of several other times when he&#039;s suggested that it&#039;s perfectly groovy to stigmitize young single mothers. But when some woman wants to put off having kids until she&#039;s 30, all of a sudden he&#039;s wagging his finger at her for not having a child when she was 17.   Apparently, young mothers are bad for not waiting until they&#039;re older, but older mothers are dumb for not having children younger.  

At some point, you just get the impression that Robert enjoys wagging his finger at women.  I suppose that everyone needs a hobby.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what&#8217;s funny about Robert&#8217;s comment is that I can think of several other instances in which he&#8217;s wagged his finger at women who have made the choice that Lauren made.  I can think of several other times when he&#8217;s suggested that it&#8217;s perfectly groovy to stigmitize young single mothers. But when some woman wants to put off having kids until she&#8217;s 30, all of a sudden he&#8217;s wagging his finger at her for not having a child when she was 17.   Apparently, young mothers are bad for not waiting until they&#8217;re older, but older mothers are dumb for not having children younger.  </p>
<p>At some point, you just get the impression that Robert enjoys wagging his finger at women.  I suppose that everyone needs a hobby.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kathy McCarty</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29326</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathy McCarty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2006 21:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29326</guid>
		<description>Oh, and Robert: Most young women in their early twenties with only a high school diploma HAVE NO MONEY !!!  THat is the age when Most Abortions are performed...becasue the mothers-to-be HAVE NO MONEY. The men they are involved with ARE STUDENTS and HAVE NO MONEY. Most men that age, the potential mates of these young women, CAN&#039;T GET MARRIED or their parents will STOP PAYING FOR THEIR COLLEGE. Come back to the real world Robert. Do you think all young women have trust funds? Do you think they are married to forty year old men? Friends of their fathers perhaps?
I think you were trying to solve the reproduction problem with LOGIC alone. Feed some more actual data about the living conditions for young people fresh out of high school into your logic machine.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and Robert: Most young women in their early twenties with only a high school diploma HAVE NO MONEY !!!  THat is the age when Most Abortions are performed&#8230;becasue the mothers-to-be HAVE NO MONEY. The men they are involved with ARE STUDENTS and HAVE NO MONEY. Most men that age, the potential mates of these young women, CAN&#8217;T GET MARRIED or their parents will STOP PAYING FOR THEIR COLLEGE. Come back to the real world Robert. Do you think all young women have trust funds? Do you think they are married to forty year old men? Friends of their fathers perhaps?<br />
I think you were trying to solve the reproduction problem with LOGIC alone. Feed some more actual data about the living conditions for young people fresh out of high school into your logic machine&#8230;..</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kathy McCarty</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29323</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathy McCarty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2006 20:49:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29323</guid>
		<description>THANK YOU for taking on the JOB of telling THIS HYPOCRITICAL HARPY, tool of the Nazi-ization of AMerica, exactly how FULL OF SHIT she IS. Too BAd she may not read what you wrote. But at least the rest of us can !! T*H*AN*K*  Y*O*U. I myself have been baffled and mystified my whole life by the girls and women who say, &quot;Oh I am For equal Pay for Equal work, but I am not a Feminist !!&quot;. They have NO gratitude and no idea what the world was like in THE BEFORE TIMES. THose of us raised by divorced single mothers remember all too well how the system was stacked against women before the nineteen seventies. The only reason women are anti-feminist, is because they are afraid of alienating potential mates.  No backbone, no integrity !! ANd completely intellectually dishonest, as you so lucidly point out.

THank you AGAIN !!!

Kathy McCarty</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>THANK YOU for taking on the JOB of telling THIS HYPOCRITICAL HARPY, tool of the Nazi-ization of AMerica, exactly how FULL OF SHIT she IS. Too BAd she may not read what you wrote. But at least the rest of us can !! T*H*AN*K*  Y*O*U. I myself have been baffled and mystified my whole life by the girls and women who say, &#8220;Oh I am For equal Pay for Equal work, but I am not a Feminist !!&#8221;. They have NO gratitude and no idea what the world was like in THE BEFORE TIMES. THose of us raised by divorced single mothers remember all too well how the system was stacked against women before the nineteen seventies. The only reason women are anti-feminist, is because they are afraid of alienating potential mates.  No backbone, no integrity !! ANd completely intellectually dishonest, as you so lucidly point out.</p>
<p>THank you AGAIN !!!</p>
<p>Kathy McCarty</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Catherine</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29243</link>
		<dc:creator>Catherine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jan 2006 21:17:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29243</guid>
		<description>
  One thing that always gets me about the discussions of women working vs. taking care of children is the lack of historical perspective.  For most of human history, women *have* worked - be it gathering, working in the fields, making clothing, cooking, all those traditional jobs for women.  And yeah, they took care of the kids as well, though usually with the help of other family members.  So the concept of the working mother is a very, very old one.  A lot of our modern-day gender roles hearken back to those times when a division of labor was necessary just because there was so much work to do.  We don&#039;t have to sew our own clothes anymore, or grow our own food, so why shouldn&#039;t women begin to do other types of work?  Why are women now expected to dedicate most of their time to childrearing? It&#039;s simple not true that &quot;that&#039;s the way it&#039;s always been&quot;.  

I see modern worksite daycares as a return in many ways to the old concept of mothers working and parenting at the same time.

And come on, aren&#039;t we all glad - men and women - that we no longer live in a world where we have to stick to our proscribed roles because life is &quot;nasty, brutish, and short&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing that always gets me about the discussions of women working vs. taking care of children is the lack of historical perspective.  For most of human history, women *have* worked &#8211; be it gathering, working in the fields, making clothing, cooking, all those traditional jobs for women.  And yeah, they took care of the kids as well, though usually with the help of other family members.  So the concept of the working mother is a very, very old one.  A lot of our modern-day gender roles hearken back to those times when a division of labor was necessary just because there was so much work to do.  We don&#8217;t have to sew our own clothes anymore, or grow our own food, so why shouldn&#8217;t women begin to do other types of work?  Why are women now expected to dedicate most of their time to childrearing? It&#8217;s simple not true that &#8220;that&#8217;s the way it&#8217;s always been&#8221;.  </p>
<p>I see modern worksite daycares as a return in many ways to the old concept of mothers working and parenting at the same time.</p>
<p>And come on, aren&#8217;t we all glad &#8211; men and women &#8211; that we no longer live in a world where we have to stick to our proscribed roles because life is &#8220;nasty, brutish, and short&#8221;?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Regina</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29227</link>
		<dc:creator>Regina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jan 2006 19:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29227</guid>
		<description>Hi, Robert -

I believe what Zuzu means is that, while you might plan to have your reproductive life in your 20&#039;s, real-life circumstances often add up to not being able to reproduce according to plan.  Having children in your 20&#039;s means that you either find an appropriate mate, or you find someone to provide the sperm even if they don&#039;t stick around (which leads to single-mom stigma &amp; other complications which tend to interfere with that planned on career in your 30&#039;s), or you can adopt (I haven&#039;t tried, but I think that&#039;s harder to do for single people, depending on their circumstances) - and you might have to adopt anyway, if you or your mate aren&#039;t able to reproduce naturally, and finally you can go to a sperm bank (back to the single-mom stuff).

But let&#039;s say the reproductive part of the plan has been successfully achied.  Then you attempt to start a career in your 30&#039;s.  I&#039;m sure you&#039;re aware of the many stories of women who have attempted to do so after becoming divorced or widowed - surely you&#039;ve heard about how hard it is to start fresh at least 10 years after leaving formal education, competing with young people fresh out of college for internships and minimal experience positions.  The brain may not have a shelf-life, but one&#039;s education surely does (I work with computers, and I am reminded at every turn how critical it is to continually aquire new skills and upgrade the ones you have). There&#039;s also the added handicap of needing the income to support your children.  Come to think of it, that would be a major issue in your 20&#039;s, when you&#039;re having them in the first place (cost associated with pre-natal care, childbirth, doctor&#039;s visits, general upbringing).

This is why many women have chosen to get their careers established first, then have children when at least they a household ready and can get healthcare benefits - I&#039;m sure one can always find anecdotal evidence about the occasional woman who has children first, then succeeds in her career, but it&#039;s my experience that the majority who choose to have children first have some tough choices and a lot of juggling to do.

That said, I&#039;m happy to provide the real-life story of my sister, who did have her first 2 children in her 20&#039;s, and also is successful in her career.  However, it took a LOT of work - her husband didn&#039;t have steady work (yes, he was trying his best), and she&#039;d dropped out of high school before graduating.  But when her first child was born with asthma, she took it as a mandate, got her GED, put herself through a 4-year program at our community college (while maintaining a home, raising 2 small children, and working part-time) &amp; became a repiratory therapist.  NOTE that she did not have the option of waiting to start her career at a more convenient time, because as I&#039;m sure you&#039;re aware, it takes money to have kids.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Robert -</p>
<p>I believe what Zuzu means is that, while you might plan to have your reproductive life in your 20&#8242;s, real-life circumstances often add up to not being able to reproduce according to plan.  Having children in your 20&#8242;s means that you either find an appropriate mate, or you find someone to provide the sperm even if they don&#8217;t stick around (which leads to single-mom stigma &amp; other complications which tend to interfere with that planned on career in your 30&#8242;s), or you can adopt (I haven&#8217;t tried, but I think that&#8217;s harder to do for single people, depending on their circumstances) &#8211; and you might have to adopt anyway, if you or your mate aren&#8217;t able to reproduce naturally, and finally you can go to a sperm bank (back to the single-mom stuff).</p>
<p>But let&#8217;s say the reproductive part of the plan has been successfully achied.  Then you attempt to start a career in your 30&#8242;s.  I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re aware of the many stories of women who have attempted to do so after becoming divorced or widowed &#8211; surely you&#8217;ve heard about how hard it is to start fresh at least 10 years after leaving formal education, competing with young people fresh out of college for internships and minimal experience positions.  The brain may not have a shelf-life, but one&#8217;s education surely does (I work with computers, and I am reminded at every turn how critical it is to continually aquire new skills and upgrade the ones you have). There&#8217;s also the added handicap of needing the income to support your children.  Come to think of it, that would be a major issue in your 20&#8242;s, when you&#8217;re having them in the first place (cost associated with pre-natal care, childbirth, doctor&#8217;s visits, general upbringing).</p>
<p>This is why many women have chosen to get their careers established first, then have children when at least they a household ready and can get healthcare benefits &#8211; I&#8217;m sure one can always find anecdotal evidence about the occasional woman who has children first, then succeeds in her career, but it&#8217;s my experience that the majority who choose to have children first have some tough choices and a lot of juggling to do.</p>
<p>That said, I&#8217;m happy to provide the real-life story of my sister, who did have her first 2 children in her 20&#8242;s, and also is successful in her career.  However, it took a LOT of work &#8211; her husband didn&#8217;t have steady work (yes, he was trying his best), and she&#8217;d dropped out of high school before graduating.  But when her first child was born with asthma, she took it as a mandate, got her GED, put herself through a 4-year program at our community college (while maintaining a home, raising 2 small children, and working part-time) &amp; became a repiratory therapist.  NOTE that she did not have the option of waiting to start her career at a more convenient time, because as I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re aware, it takes money to have kids.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29141</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jan 2006 05:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/17/beating-the-strawfeminist/#comment-29141</guid>
		<description>Since that isn&#039;t what I said, Zuzu, your resentment would appear to lie with some other entity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since that isn&#8217;t what I said, Zuzu, your resentment would appear to lie with some other entity.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Minified using disk: basic
Page Caching using disk: basic
Database Caching 16/21 queries in 0.033 seconds using disk: basic

Served from: www.feministe.us @ 2012-02-10 07:00:55 -->
