Yes, absolutely, but there’s no counterpart to the massive amount of “she-male” and similar porn and the accompanying fetishization of trans women. There’s a huge difference between the fetishistic attitude that springs out of the dyke community and one that’s coming from society at large and which is by definition charged with ambivalence and disgust/weirdness (after all, it’s by and large straight men who are really into particular genital configurations traditionally associated with gay men.)

I just want to emphasise that I agree that the fetishization of trans guys is disrespectful and wrong, and that that fetishization is focused on a particular, limited, group of trans guys. I do kind of feel that I’ve strayed from the point I was badly groping towards in #50, which was a more general interest in how you, or trans guys generally, perceive and deal with attitudes towards trans bodies. I’m also not completely sure if I can get away from how I felt and feel about my own body- I slightly get the feeling in these discussions that I end up thinking about how difficult I found my own body and generalising from there.

Piny said:
“Women who actually do dress like men dress now–baggy tshirts, cargo pants, boyish haircuts–and who seem to present themselves in a potentially masculine way are treated with disgust and do face harassment and harassing violence.”

I don’t want to belabour this point, as I think it’s probably enormously culturally specific, but I don’t think that it’s accurate to make that statement- butch dykes can wear guy’s clothes and get by (albeit with some issues,) but that doesn’t hold the other way around.

Piny said:
“If transmen can only be admitted to the class men if their bodies and the things they might do with them are nullified, I think that does imply a very deep-seated disgust.”

I think this is probably true of trans people in general; it’s exemplified by the real men don’t get fucked school of thought, but there’s all sorts of counterparts. It seems to come down to the idea that trans people aren’t really members of their gender and if they want recognition they have to play by an extremely restrictive set of gendered rules.

I really want to come back to this discussion and I don’t feel I have time to do it justice right now, but I’d be very interested in reading any further posts you end up writing about trans embodiment and desire.

I was thinking of my own community and tahe way that certain kinds of trans masculine or genderqueer identities (hot genderqueer trannyboys etc.) are not only welcomed but effectively fetished whilst trans women are viewed with distaste.

But that attitude has its counterpart in the men who chase and fetishize transwomen, doesn’t it? They may not be affiliated with a community in the way that the “OMG! Trannyboyzzzz! Teh cute!!1!” attitude seems to be tied to the queer women’s community, but they’re definitely out there. And while it’s certainly safer in many ways than disgust, it’s not necessarily more respectful. As you said, it also tends to focus on a particular kind of transmasculine body–early-transition, cute’n'young–and it either ignores or actively excludes everyone else. Transguys who, y’know, look like hairy adult men, or who are not interested in being treated as cute lil’ trannyboi toys, are not welcome and do deal with disgust. Plus, there is a lot of disgust towards transguy bodies from transphobic dykes and queer women.

As far as society at large, we tend to be lumped in with butch dykes. You have to have encountered the horrible stereotypes about their bodies. Mannish, hairy, fat, ugly, mean, abrasive…and so on. To the extent we are seen, I think we are seen that way.

On a silly macro level it’s similar to the way that men wearing women’s clothes arouses a whole lot of other reactions than women wearing men’s.

Women who wear feminized kinds of clothing that used to be assigned to men–suit jackets, trousers–are not punished in the same way as men who wear the clothing that still belongs to women. They’re not exactly cross-dressers; they’re wearing clothing that has been modified in order to distinguish it from male clothing. Women who actually do dress like men dress now–baggy tshirts, cargo pants, boyish haircuts–and who seem to present themselves in a potentially masculine way are treated with disgust and do face harassment and harassing violence.

I need to do more thinking about the interactions between invisibility, admittance, and the body. I think that there’s definitely a disjunct between the way transmasculine transition is perceived and the way transmasculine bodies are perceived. If transmen can only be admitted to the class men if their bodies and the things they might do with them are nullified, I think that does imply a very deep-seated disgust.

Apologies, I was being somewhat unclear; I’m not suggesting that there’s no disgust or whatever towards trans guys, rather that it operates in different ways- in particular I was thinking of my own community and tahe way that certain kinds of trans masculine or genderqueer identities (hot genderqueer trannyboys etc.) are not only welcomed but effectively fetished whilst trans women are viewed with distaste. I’m not sure that I agree that outside of a particular subset of people (transphobic gay men) that trans masculine bodies do provoke disgust in quite the same way as trans women’s. It may well be a result of the fact that trans men aren’t as publically visible as trans women, but I’d say that one of the consequences of the interaction of sexism and transphobia is a particular reaction of disgust to (and a simultaneous fascination with) trans feminine bodies.

In transitioning trans women’s choices end up contradicting an awful lot of boys>girls stuff that’s floating around society. Because of the way that hierarchy works I think there’s probably a tendency for trans women to arouse disgust where trans guys arouse pity or scorn. Trans guys may never be considered to be men in the metric dictated by sexism and the bad end of gender norms, but they’re following the gradient of the hierarchy in a way that trans women aren’t, and that results in trans women being socially punished in a particular way. On a silly macro level it’s similar to the way that men wearing women’s clothes arouses a whole lot of other reactions than women wearing men’s.
Everything above’s still very much half formed, and I realise I’m straying awfully close to the “I’m more of a victim/oppresed than thou” game (which is horrible and divisive) so if you’re willing to talk about it I’d be interested to hear your views on the way that society reacts to trans male bodies and the way that transguys internalize that.
Oh, on a more informational note, if you don’t know already Bitch are running a Hot & Bothered issue soon and one of the topics they’re interested in is “post-op [not the best category, but hey] transgender desire.”

To be honest, I always felt obligated to disclose purely for my own self-protection. Better to be rejected, for that, early rather than late. It had nothing much to do with moral qualms. Well, other than the time I was pursuing a minister to be, and felt it fairest to have all my potential-minister’s-wife drawbacks out in the open. On the moral point, I’m with Thomas (people have the right to reject other people for any reason they darn well please, even extending to bigotted reasons, but it’s up to people to ask about whatever would bother them). Practically, if I were, especially, a pre-op transsexual, I’d disclose for the same reason that I used to disclose my bisexuality – to get any rejection over with before it got more painful for me.

being in a situation where it’s clear that my partner wants to have sex and then having to have an extended discussion about trans stuff is both ridiculously unsexy and enormously scary.

I’m actually considering blogging about this issue specifically.

I think that’s particularly true for trans women- I’d be interested to know the extent to which trans guys feel that there’s strong undercurrents of disgust in how their bodies are perceived, as at least to me there doesn’t seem to be quite the same type of negative attitudes to trans male bodies in general as to trans female ones.

Of course there’s disgust; look at the letter. And transguys certainly internalize that, to varying degrees. I think the reason attitudes towards transmale bodies are less obviously vituperative is that the straight world hasn’t really gotten around to considering us yet. We’re barely on the radar. In communities where we are acknowledged–largely queer ones–there’s plenty of nastiness around our bodies. There’s also the issue of how transwomen threaten traditional male sexuality on a level that transmen don’t. Straight men don’t have to consider us as potential partners.

…I’m exhausted, so I’ll have to continue this more coherently tomorrow. I hear you about the intimacy and shame–and it’s worth pointing out that attitudes like the one reflected in the letter don’t exactly encourage openness on the part of transpeople. I was shy and reserved around dating before I had to tell prospective partners I had a vagina.

The whole process of disclosing trans status is often pretty brutal and deeply libido killing- being in a situation where it’s clear that my partner wants to have sex and then having to have an extended discussion about trans stuff is both ridiculously unsexy and enormously scary. By the time I might be having sex with a partner there’s always going to have been some level of physical/emotional intimacy and setting myself up to be judged and rejected on a fundamental level of my identity is really painful and difficult to do. I think that’s particularly true for trans women- I’d be interested to know the extent to which trans guys feel that there’s strong undercurrents of disgust in how their bodies are perceived, as at least to me there doesn’t seem to be quite the same type of negative attitudes to trans male bodies in general as to trans female ones.

My colleague posted an intriguing quote, prompting me to post a quote of my own from a running series at my personal blog, Sour Duck.
I call the series Quote o’ the Month, however, that is just a conceit; I frequently post four or five quotes in one m…

Which brings up an interesting issue: someone who is transitioning, and who can present as their birth sex. (For Alas readers, I’m thinking of Nick, but I don’t really want to start a forum on Nick’s sex life).