I’ve had to shut my mouth an awful lot lately, believe it or not.
When I was a kid, I attended the church three doors down from my house, and although my mother was religious about going to church, I never fancied her as a truly religious person. Even though I finally decided I didn’t believe in any god at around the age of fifteen, I continued to go to church pretty regularly until I was about twenty-one. I had lots of friends there and a decent support system, and one of my mentors was a minister at this church. I attended church camp for five years as a teen, but the point of it all was clearly lost on me.
Somewhere along the way the Jesus Freak movement happened, as did WWJD? and the explosion of faux metal Christian bands, a PR move that has converted far more people to fundamentalism than I ever remember ten years ago. The moment the change hit me was during a convocation at this camp when a grown man stood on a stage with a microphone declaring his love for a living, walking Jesus who walks (not walked) the earth while two hundred teenagers swayed and cried and converted to the tune of Christian hip hop with their hands waving in the air. Mark and Pat, my friends who only attended this camp with me to get away from our parents for a week, gaped at the stage with wide eyes while I sputtered in disbelief.
Around this time, the church of my childhood went from a quiet place open to questions and doubt, open enough for a pregnant junkie teen to find comfort, to a fundamentalist church where those who didn’t accept Christ as their literal savior were outcast. I quit going.
My friends and I are mostly atheists or agnostics, and even my Christian friends aren’t too into prosletyzing (around me). I live in a bubble that lacks religiosity unless it comes from political news. But then I started my job.
I’ve wandered straight into Jesusland, where nobody feels any discomfort about testifying and witnessing the good works of Jesus at work every day. You can buy your car from a Christian auto dealer, eat at a Christian family restaurant, and shop for sundries at a Christian store. Everywhere I go, people are professing their love for Jesus Christ.
Today, a woman I work with quite literally expressed that people with mental illnesses are possessed by demons. I repeat, possessed by demons.
The biggest irony? I work in the mental health industry.
:::boggle:::
Lauren, I am not surprised. There is some irony that I personally enjoy though. In a particular turn of events that I won’t bother to describe here, a zygote implanted itself in my uterus. At the time my support system consisted of my idiot, jerkbag, raping husband and a fundie group. The wife of the Head Fundie privately advocated that I get the Big Bad Procedure done and I did. She said, “I know some people don’t understand, but if there was ever a time when this was the right thing to do, this is it.”
So I chuckle because I know fundies really aren’t all what they want everyone to think they are. All is subjective. A penis needs some stroking, a girl’s in a bad way. Just depends on the situation, who’s got what at stake.
I volunteered for a fundie homeless shelter for a short stint. The holies, amens and godblesses and “I need to pray because…” just drove me nuts. Also, the men were horribly sexist and patronizing of course.
I also once worked for an company that required I work under the only catholic fanatic I’ve ever met. He walked around carrying his beads in his pocket and when under stress, you could see his fingers moving around in there madly grasping his rosary for an answer.
Once snooping in his desk I also found a bottle of holy water (right next to the pen tray, I guess for a quick burst of holy rain? and a prayer book). I could go on, but just believe me when I tell you he was a flake and also a patriarchy supporter. I quit there after a year and a half and swore I’ll never work for anyone again.
I have a plumber for a subcontractor. He’s a nice guy, I actually kind of like him, he knows not to preach to me, but he’s stated he’s a fundie. He has a fear of brown people and always tries to blame something on ‘the immugrunts’ taking ‘all our money’. I can tell he really believes the shit he hears and reads and has little reference to believe otherwise. I often refute his statements, giving him alternatives to consider. I am sure though I wouldn’t be able to push him out of the god-rut anytime soon though.
I don’t know what that has to do with fundamentalism, except that racism and fundamentalism complement eachother well, even in a post.
I don’t know how you can work with them. I certainly hope you are well paid.
I don’t know all this “earth orbits the sun” stuff. Sounds like a bunch of commie crap to me.
That’s pretty common for mentally illl people, and somewhat common for their relatives (makes sense, if you think about it),
To clarify: People use their religious beliefs to descibe mental illnesses (if they are religious enough, and do not use logic, and serious mental illnesses do hamper with that). That is, they will use a religious explanation for these weird things (mental illnesses) because it comforts them.
Doesn’t make it any less fucked up, I must say.
Most religious people believe that some mental illnesses are caused by or are related to some form of possession. You vs. 6 billion…good thing you’ve got the tolerance thing going.
I’m reminded of a friend of mine who was interviewing candidates for jobs in Atlanta. He asked one applicant what set her apart from the other candidates. Her reply? “My deep and abiding faith in Jesus as my Lord and savior.”
She was one of three candidates to give such an answer.
Robert, what on earth are you talking about?
No, no, no. What in heaven is he talking about.
Well, I debated going with “what in god’s name are you talking about?” but I thought minimizing the blasphemy might be in order now that the flamewars have died down. =)
That’s news to me! Maybe I just know the “wrong” religious folks?
What is it about healthcare that attracts the fundies?
That’s news to me! Maybe I just know the “wrong” religious folks?
No, you just know the Western ones. There are 6 billion believers on the planet.
In the States, it’s probably more like 25% of believers who outright believe that what the quacks call mental illness is really demonic possession. Another 15% are of the sort who don’t rule it out but who also believe in organic disease.
Believers in what? God? Demonic possession in lieu of mental illness? You’re going to have to get more specific.
No, no, no. What in heaven is he talking about.
No, no, no. What in hell is he talking about. Presumably the mental illness causing demons don’t come from heaven, at least not recently.
Fortunately, demons are often responsive to the right psychotropic medication.
I shouldn’t get involved in this…really I shouldn’t but…
When you use the term “quacks” I presume you have an opinion on this subject? Or are you just being provocative? :)
And we can all thank God for that.
Quacks was a referent to how those 25% think of mental health professionals. Sorry, didn’t make that clear.
“Believers” = religious believers, evil_fizz.
And we get this data from where??
Most religious people believe that some mental illnesses are caused by or are related to some form of possession. You vs. 6 billion
Well, most people in the word used to believe that the Earth is flat. And quite a number of people believe right now that myself and my fellow Jews are part of a worlwide conspiracy to something-or-other. Actually quite a bit of the world believes in the inherent inferiority of people of another colour. And more then a few people on the planet are quite certain that as a woman, I should be paid less (if I work at all) and squirt out babies until I die.
Just becuase several million people believe in something doesn’t make it right. Or even worthy of tolerance.
Anthropologists and sociologists.
There aren’t many studies on the subject, but belief in the literal existence of Satan hovers around 35% for Americans as a whole, up to as much as 60% for groups like Baptists. My own experience among charismatics, evangelicals, Catholics, and other religious oddballs leads me to think that a substantial chunk, but less than half, are in the crazy=demon camp.
Out in the wider world, it’s much more superstitious.
My sister-in-law put it much ‘nicer’ than that. After I replied to her inquiry about my mental health, she said, “You wouldn’t have this problem if you just went to church and prayed.”
I think that was the same phone conversation that ended when I threw the phone at the wall.
Sorry, that was “Mormons”, not “Baptists”.
While I’ve had some patients who were quite sure that either God or Satan or angels (or the government or dead people or even the phone company, for that matter) were the voices inside their heads, I have yet to hear a mental health professional (or any medical degreed professional, for that matter) state that those illnesses are due to demonic possession. I’ve worked in mental health for 15 years in two different red states.
Lauren’s Officemate
Holy fuck and stick it with a fork!
…
Do you have any idea how tempted I was to track back to this with a post titled, “Lauren Needs Your Prayers?”
/evil
One of my own grandfathers espoused the same nutty belief, but (1) he didn’t work in the mental health community, thank goodness, and (2) he was a Mormon, which, according to Robert, makes it okay.
Nah. Him being a Mormon makes it OK to marry 14-year old girls, and to wear his undies for waaaaay longer than they told us to do at camp.
Religious freedom and tolerance makes it OK to believe devils cause schizophrenia. Perhaps stupid, but OK.
If I may be forgiven for actually talking about the original post:
On the one hand, it is good that Lauren is being given a chance to expand her tolerance muscles. It’s a mixed-religious world, and that means we all have to be tolerant of our nutty co-workers, neighbors, friends, and so on.
On the other hand, I think there is a legitimate question to be asked: at what point is it reasonable to just expect people to hush about their religious opinions and/or beliefs?
I would place that point pretty far out. Faith, or the absence of it, is important to people. Feelings and beliefs are strong, and people want and need to express them. But at the same time, there are some limitations. I think that once someone asks you to stop evangelizing them, you do it. (There are also times and places that are inappropriate for evangelism.)
Lauren’s co-worker doesn’t sound like she’s over the line, from what I read of the story. (Nor does it seem like Lauren is complaining, as much as appreciating the irony.)
Well, here in Australia we’ve had some prominent cases of schizophrenics being killed during exorcisms. Same deal with disabled kids. Now, I have no problems with people thinking whatever the hell they want: but when a man takes his wife into the desert and ties her down for several days with no food and water because he thinks her mental illness is caused by a demon and not a chemical imbalance in her brain I think there’s a serious problem with HIS religious beliefs.
So I reckon that, right there, is a huge problem. I don’t really want to be tolerant of that sort of BS.
Now, I have no problems with people thinking whatever the hell they want: but when a man takes his wife into the desert and ties her down for several days with no food and water because he thinks her mental illness is caused by a demon and not a chemical imbalance in her brain I think there’s a serious problem with HIS religious beliefs.
Nope. There’s a problem with his actions. Which would be covered quite adequately by the civil or criminal law, I’m sure; I imagine that tying people up in the desert is a violation of the law in Australia.
Believe that your wife’s schizophrenia is caused by the Devil, OK. Tying her up in the desert, not OK. Belief = ok. Action = not ok.
The snag being that someone who works in mental health is probably going to come into contact with people who have diagnosable mental illnesses which may well respond to psychotropic medication. So someone who genuinely believes the “real” cause of mental illness is demonic possession may not be the best person to interact with vulnerable mentally ill people. Now, we have no information as to whether or not Lauren’s co-worker keeps this belief to herself when interacting with mental health patients, but I would say that if she doesn’t keep said ideas to herself, the agency she works for is going to have a legitimate beef with her and so would patients.
I mean, my great-aunt is a Christian Scientist, and I respect her belief that prayer rather than antibiotics are the solution to physical illness, even though I don’t share her belief. HOWEVER, if my great-aunt were to become a pharmacist, nurse, doctor, i.e. someone whose job involves medical rather than prayerful responses to physical illness, I wouldn’t want her anywhere near me when I was sick.
The fact that Lauren’s co-worker works in mental health suggests that her beliefs may come into conflict with her professional obligations. Now, we don’t know if such a conflict has already occurred, and I’m certainly not advocating pre-emptively firing her or anything, but if I were this person’s supervisor, I’d be keeping a watchful eye on her behaviour at work. Because IF she starts prosthelytizing on the job about how mental illness isn’t caused by chemical imbalances in the brain and helped by medication, and instead tells patients it’s caused by demons and helped by prayer, that’s a potential lawsuit waiting to happen. People don’t go to mental health professionals for religious advice, they go for medical advice.
Now, I don’t know what Lauren’s co-worker does, I mean maybe she has a clerical job in a mental health setting or something (in which case interaction with vulnerable patients would be unlikely), but if she’s a social worker or a nurse or some other person whose job involves working with mental health patients, she could do a lot of damage to an already vulnerable population.
I take anti-depressants for a longstanding case of clinical depression, with which I function quite well and without which I don’t. As it happens I’m a churchgoer, but I don’t believe depression is caused by demons, possibly because I’m a sensible Christian. If I were informed by a pharmacist filling a prescription for anti-depressants or someone else whose job involves medical understanding of mental illness that I would do better to pray than to take the pills, I would immediately notify that person’s supervisor and make a fuss. Because that is absolutely not okay behaviour. They think that, they better damn well keep it to themselves at work.
I think you’ve miscalculated, assuming that that much of the world’s population a) is religious, and b) believes that about mental illnesses.
I’d imagine you’re significantly underestimating a) the number of atheists, and b) the number of religious people who know better.
Just to be clear, I think my co-worker is a bit, uh, zealous, but I have yet to see her act on these beliefs in any way.
Don’t you just wish sometime that religious people would practice Christianity rather than always trying to sell it like soap. There are several practicing Christians in my life and they never push like that. I can tell they are practicing Christians because when you read in the Bible what Jesus teaches and compare it to what they are doing in their lives, TaDa.
Lauren, very glad to hear she’s able to separate her professional life from her personal beliefs.
Same story here.
I grew up in First Baptist church, which seemed pretty mellow at the time. Got fed up with it when I 15 or 16 just walked out and hiked home, left my mother and sister at church. I never went back regularly after that.
My best friends in Jr. High were preacher’s kids, Methodist and Church of Christ. I had attended services at both their churches. I have also attended services on occasion at a Lutheran and 7th Day Adventist churches. I was even a Royal Ranger for like two months heh.
Several years ago I even attended a full-on charismatic fundie mega church for about a year or so with a girlfriend. Went to some bible study classes and some of the men’s meetings. Eventually, the conservative hypocrisy got to me which led to the end of that relationship and my adventure into the surreal world of fundie wingnuttery.
Somewhere around my apartment I have a portfolio full of tracts and crap I have collected from Christian nutjobs as well.
It has gotten substantially worse though.
My work is full of decent people for the most part but you can not avoid the Christian pushiness. My boss is a recently ripened pod person. Some of the other management are likewise. I find tracts on the tables in the lunch room and the bullshit I hear on my boss’s car radio when we go to lunch I tell you….
Some of the best people I have met and respect are Christian and the one thing they all had in common was that they were never proselytizers.
I. can. not. stand. proselytizers.
IMHO good Christians don’t have to do anything more than lead by example.
That is my idea of tolerance; keep your self-righteous nose out of my life you hubristic prigs.
You went to Youth Group in the 60s?
(I can never resist awkwardly shoehorning links to semi-obscure social movements of the mid 20th century.)
I’ve heard coworkers speak of bosses or staff who have used the line “well I prayed on this.” As in they were asked to do their job and the person prayed on it and I guess god told them they could only register 8 patients a day versus the company standard of 12. Or someone had applied for a position or during a review the supervisor told them “well I prayed on this and decided to not promote you/only rank you a 4″ I was shocked – if someone told me they reached a BUSINESS decision through prayer – I don’t know what I would do. Its nice though that our company is very much into the church/state divide – when my boss told me she thought Easter was a more important holiday than Xmas I shrugged and said I wasn’t a Christian – didn’t think twice about doing it.
This terrifies me. Speaking as a client.
God, I hate fundies. Hate ‘em. You can’t even eat them and reduce waste that way. They look at the rest of humanity as poker chips to trade to God for their own salvation. The more you suffer, the more virtuous they are for showing you the way.
Not that I got tossed out of Catholic school three times or anything. And the bit about being possessed by demons? Christ, does she work for the VA?
I need to go harass those sign-waving fundies at Planned Parenthood.
My office is 60% Jewish. I can’t say I’ve felt too much in the way of proselytizing. They just tempt me with latkes all the time. ;)
Traditional Judaism actually frowns on prosletyzation.
[It comes from centuries of persecution.]
We prosletyze our own — in heavily Jewish neighborhoods you may see ultraorthodox Jews asking passersby if they are Jewish, and if so, trying to convince them to shake-a-lulav/light candles/whatever the holiday may be.
But they leave the goyim alone, only focusing their attention on other Jews.
So feel free to enjoy the latkes, hamentashen, or other seasonal goodies without guilt. We just want to feed you. :)
The church I attended as a young teen was always conservative. While I was away at college, they rebelled against the mainsteam methodist church that had created them over something progressive [gay marriage, I suspect.] After a lengthy dispute, the local splinter group purchased the land and buildings– it’s now cavalry instead of methodist.
The amusing part is that there was no charisma in the leadership at all. Just solid, stubborn, “this is the way we are” faith.
There was a department head in the hospital my father worked at who was a fundamentalist. He would talk to people, they would come to a decision, then he would go and “pray” about it, and if God told him to do something different he would. Didn’t matter if he’d promised, or if the other person was counting on him – God said do this other thing/don’t do what you said you would, and he would do what God said.
Apparently God wanted him to be an asshole and got him fired for embezzlement.
Lauren, that’s really funny. In a creepy way.
Extreme religiosity, as you pro’lly know, is a major symptom of psychosis. Particularly when a person has grown up in a religious household, their psychosis will display as hyper-religiosity.
How affirming for the psychotic clients in your facility to be surrounded by more of the same…. (sticks tongue in cheek)
I’m not surprised. I grew up in the Bible belt, and this all just sounds very familiar to me. Oddly, even in the Bible belt, people kept their beliefs far more to themselves in the 80′s. Something changed in the 90′s.
I just wonder how it would be if I went around preaching my message of how wrong it is to sit around waiting for Jesus to save the world, and how atheism is like a beacon showing us we can change the world all by ourselves, by caring about ourselves and each other, and realizing we’re the only ones who can make it happen. Somehow, I think people just wouldn’t get the parallel. It’s the privilege of the dominant paradigm.
Doesn’t anyone else remember the “Jesus Freak” business?
Lauren:
“Eleven long-haired friends of Jesus in a chartreuse micro-bus.”
C. W. McCall
“Strung out on Jeeeezus, myaaan.”
Yip. I ‘member.
Ha! You suck.
In the 1990s, people.
You kids nowadays think you invented jesus freaks.
We had Marjoe fucking Gortner, man. Don’t try to sell me this 1990s crap.
What the old fart said.
And this older fart had a few run-ins with self-named “Jesus Freaks” around 1971–73, way back East. Friends of mine who were seeing each other joined a local group, gave up sex for the Lord, and shortly after that he killed himself. She had a psychotic break, probably because this was the second boyfriend who’d killed himself in six months (it wasn’t her, it was the population she was choosing from), and was in the hospital a few months. Not one of her holy buddies ever visited her.
/spit/