Two Duke Lacrosse Players Arrested

And charged with kidnapping and rape.

Now, all the threads on the Duke case have basically gone the same way: One group of people says, “We believe her;” one group says, “But those ‘boys’ could be innocent!” and another group (which tends to overlap with the first group) just wants to discuss the various issues of race, class, entitlement, etc that this case brings up — and talking about that, of course, is interpreted as “convicting” the entire lacrosse team.

So before we do all that yet again, let it be said: Feministe is not a court of law. We aren’t here to convict or exonerate anyone. In a court of law, the accused is assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. That’s a good standard for our legal system, but it doesn’t mean that we can’t talk about the implications of this case without always adding on, “But they could be innocent” at the end. We can also be suspicious of the “she’s lying!” line that’s so often used in rape cases, and almost never brought up in any other type of crime. So let’s discuss away, but let’s try and move on from, “But they might not be guilty!” and “But they probably are!”

The two men who have been arrested are sophomores, and one has a history of assault.

Mr. Finnerty had been arrested with two teammates from his high school lacrosse team in the Georgetown section of Washington on Nov. 5, after a man told police at 2:30 a.m. that they “had punched him in the face and body, because he told them to stop calling him gay and other derogatory names,” according to court records.

Mr. Finnerty’s lawyer in that case, Steven J. McCool, said that the student had entered the District of Columbia’s diversionary program, and that the assault charge would be dismissed after the completion of 25 hours of community service.

That’s right — he went out gay-bashing with some friends, and when a man responded and told them to knock it off, they attacked him. The punishment that this upstanding young man received? Community service.

As for the woman, a physical examination backs up her story:

Police initially thought the accuser was intoxicated but later took her to the Duke University Hospital emergency room. She had “signs, symptoms, and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally and anally,” according to a district attorney’s affidavit.

She may have been intoxicated, but let’s be clear — that isn’t a defense against rape. There have also been suggestions that she could have been drugged.

Obviously their defense lawyers are saying that the men are innocent. That’s their job. But they haven’t been exactly honest in their statements so far.

Defense lawyers have told reporters that the second dancer at the party has contradicted the accuser. But that woman spoke with a local television station over the weekend, under conditions set by her lawyer that she could not be asked about specifics at the party, and she did not contradict the accuser.

In the interview, which was also shown Monday on MSNBC, the second dancer called the defense lawyers’ comments about her testimony “out-and-out lies.” The second dancer said that she had not seen a rape occur, but that she thought the accuser was telling the truth.

So here’s what we have: Two arrests. One man with a history of assault. Injuries consistent with rape. DNA tests that have thus far not turned up anything. It’s a confusing case, but here’s what seems clear enough to me: Duke has serious problems with race, entitlement and class, as evidenced by the reaction throughout campus — this case has touched a nerve for a reason. It’s a problem when a campus leader can be arrested for assaulting someone and the university turns its head. There exists an elite class at already-elite universities, and many members of that class feel deeply entitled to behave pretty much however they want, since they rarely see consequences — see numerous complaints for things like public urination and drunkenness, community service for physically attacking someone, and Patrick Bateman-esque emails about killing, skinning and ejaculating on strippers.

Something is going on here. And all these things are worth discussing.


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207 comments for “Two Duke Lacrosse Players Arrested

  1. April 18, 2006 at 9:04 am

    It’s not going to end anytime soon. You can probably calculate how many further posts are going to be written if the matter is micro-covered.

    Apart from the sociological elements identified by Jill in the post, I still have to place this in the category of “local news become national to the extent that national and international news gets shunted aside” that I deplore in missing white girl cases, and, to a lesser extent, serial killers who are operating exclusively in one area.

  2. April 18, 2006 at 9:13 am

    even if a rape or sexual assault did not occur — and yes, perhaps it is too early to jump to conclusions — i’m happy these assholes are being punished with humiliation for their disgusting actions/views in the past. i can’t wait till the patrick bateman-wannabe gets hauled in. in the end, these few men might be proved innocent of this particular crime, but at least the public will know how wretched their intentions have been.

  3. April 18, 2006 at 9:15 am

    Good. I’m glad these men have been arrested. I’d lost hope there for a while. This issue needs more attention called to it – besides the usual media patter, that is.

  4. April 18, 2006 at 9:38 am

    The wingnuts are so true to form. Two days ago they said there was no case and wouldn’t be any arrests. Now they’re just rewriting their spin a little, saying that, oh sure, there are arrests, but they “boys” are innocent. This is what they always do. Change the story every time they’re proven wrong.

    WMDs. Regime change. Democratization. No wonder they call it spin; I’m dizzy.

  5. April 18, 2006 at 9:49 am

    I’m beginning to see how the initially differing accounts of what happened could be reconciled. This is pue hypothesis from 1000s of miles away so it has as much value as you are paying for it – i.e. 0

    Firstly it seems pretty clear now that the victim was assaulted and probably raped by somebody that night. The question is who, when and where. The problem I had was that the timetable of events didn’t seme to match up and the statements from the frat boys which stated that the victim was unable to perform as expected and seemed intoxicated and in bad shape when the first saw her. This seemed to indicate that she was raped before going on this call – which seemed ummm implausible – but which seemed to be strengthened by the lack of DNA evidence. So how to square the circle?

    I think what happened is that the two dancers showed up and were almost immediately separated into two chnageing rooms/closets/bathrooms. The victim discovered that two or three of the frat boys – who probably guided her to her “changing room” – wanted a bit more than a dance, which she refused, was then possibly drugged, and was then assaulted in some closet – probably using convenient brushes for penetration because she was insulting about the rapists “equipment”. The rapists then left her and went back to the party and she was left to finish changing. Not surprisingly any performance she made after that was poor.

    I’m sure there was loud music playing, there was clearly much alcohol, I see no reason why any of the other (drunk) frat boys should have noticed that two or three of their number were missing for 5-10 minutes, hence their statements and their willingness to stick together and defend a rapist.

    BTW with regard to neal’s comment above:

    even if a rape or sexual assault did not occur — and yes, perhaps it is too early to jump to conclusions — i’m happy these assholes are being punished with humiliation for their disgusting actions/views in the past. i can’t wait till the patrick bateman-wannabe gets hauled in. in the end, these few men might be proved innocent of this particular crime, but at least the public will know how wretched their intentions have been.

    I think that is an extremely dangerous attitude, if it turns out that these particular people were innocent of this crime they and their defenders can use this to deflect attention from anything else they might do. They could even get sympathy for their cause like the way those Fathers4Justice morons do.

  6. Raging Moderate
    April 18, 2006 at 10:21 am

    They could even get sympathy for their cause like the way those Fathers4Justice morons do.

    Oh my god! Somebody finally gets it! Bless you Francis, bless you! You’re not Canadian, are you?

  7. dbt
    April 18, 2006 at 10:32 am

    There’s no reason to think a lack of DNA evidence means she wasn’t raped in the house, at all. The defense keeps trying to say that no DNA means no rape, but that’s insane.

  8. April 18, 2006 at 10:39 am

    She may have been intoxicated, but let’s be clear — that isn’t a defense against rape.

    In fact, Jill, the defendant’s intoxication is, if anything, evidence of rape — since in many places a person who is intoxicated is deemed to not be in control of their faculties and thus incapable of legally giving consent. And lack of legal consent, of course, usually equals rape.

    I don’t know what the law is in Durham or anywhere else in North Carolina, mind you, but there are still way too many people in this country who employ the old “I’ma get her drunk and then get my freak on” strategy, and these folks might be (very unpleasantly) surprised to learn just how illegal that strategy is.

  9. Josh
    April 18, 2006 at 10:43 am

    My question is why didn’t Duke threaten to revoke their scholarships (as far as I know they are still on scholarship) when they all circled the wagons and wouldn’t talk.

  10. cdo
    April 18, 2006 at 10:50 am

    I see nothing but jealousy and reverse prejudicer from you people. Just because they go to Duke and perhaps come from wealthy families they are guilty. There is no evidence to suggesat they did anything and if you are going to hold a previous assualt as evidence then you should hold the previous charges of trying to run over a cop by the accused.

    The accuser credibility is shot, rightfully so.

  11. anonymous
    April 18, 2006 at 10:59 am

    dbt, yeah, but you have to understand the importance of physical evidence to making a criminal case. It’s unsurprising that a lack of DNA would lead an impartial observer to conclude a rape didn’t occur. After all, people say all the time that a lack of fingerprints clearly proves a house wasn’t robbed…oh wait, I’ve never heard anybody say that in my life.

  12. cfw
    April 18, 2006 at 11:16 am

    I agree with cdo.

    “But they haven’t been exactly honest in their statements so far.” – Said about the lawyers for lax players. I doubt they lied. I suspect the 2d dancer changed her story. Are we leaving that out as a possibility?

    Mr. Nifong says he has identification and a V who claims no consent, so he has enough to get to a jury. On the plus side, filing of charges should give lax players some rights to discovery. No doubt they want to see the med exam report. I suspect a high blood alcohol level, possible other evidence of intoxicants.

    Perhaps Duke and other med schools should rethink how they train the nurses and MD’s who do med exams in cases of alleged sex assault. It seems best to just record objective findings. Leave out comments about how the “affect” is consistent or not consistent with having been through a rape. Also leave out characterization of the observed injuries, if any, as consistent or not consistent with forced sex. The injuries are what they are. Let the jury decide what must have happened. Here, it looks like the MD and nurse came up with “false positive” med exam test results for rape.

    I suspect the folks that sign up to do “rape kit” exams (should be “alleged rape kit” or simply “med exam”) are naturally biased toward finding sex assault. Then, over time, I suspect they are trained and groomed primarily by DA’s and police to become still more biased.

    More broadly, it seems to me that Durham does not appreciate what Duke does for undergrads, or how property values in Durham are probably bolstered by having 6400 Duke undergrads.

    Perhaps Duke should announce a plan to move undergrad slots elsewhere – say 25% to Redmond, Washington, and 25% to the San Francisco or San Diego area. Melinda Gates is a Duke grad, I think, and the Gates family could certainly seed a great undergrad campus away from the “we love to hate Duke” crowd in Durham.

    With communications as cheap as they are now, and getting cheaper, well-endowed private universities can and should branch out geographically. Why not have Duke lead?

    Duke already has away-from-Duke programs in places like Mexico, New York, etc. Princeton, Duke, Harvard, Yale etc. all encourage junior year abroad (or away from the home school).

    From Durham City council sessions, one would think there is no underage drinking or noise at UNC or other colleges, only Duke. Duke needs to find and develop more facilities and programs away from the vocal and prominent “Duke folks are jerks” crowd in Durham.

    Why not rotate the undergrads to places like NYC, Redmond, Mexico City, SF, San Diego, Dubai, London, instead of parking them in Durham for 4 years? Use the extra dorm space in Durham for students that are over 21. Or turn them into hotel space for academic conventions, married student housing, etc. Duke takes a huge hit in “beauty contests” before prospective top faculty and students because it is in Durham. Why not change that with infrastructure elsewhere?

  13. cm
    April 18, 2006 at 11:18 am

    Kee-rist, people. Your prejudice knows no bounds.

    I know lots of people who went to Duke, specifically ATHELETES who went to Duke, and they weren’t any freaking elite. They were student-athletes mostly playing for non-stellar teams (forget basketball for a second) using the opportunity of a scholarship to get into a school they would otherwise never have had a chance to enter. They were trying to step up the ladder in life, move away from the shit home, get an education they couldn’t get otherwise.

    What point is there in convicting people based on accusation only? How, exactly, is this different from the mindset that sends people to Guantanamo and revokes their writ of habeas corpus?

    Oh, right, it isn’t. It’s nice to know we have some support for torture in this crowd. Sheesh.

  14. AWP
    April 18, 2006 at 11:20 am

    Funny thing. Sick actually.

    When I first heard the news of this case, I said to my wife, “Gee, I wonder how many involved went to my high school?” Said the same thing to my parents on the phone.

    Lo and behold – 1 of the two charged, AND the writer of the Batemanite email – attended MY HIGH SCHOOL.

    Now… How do you think I knew this? Lucky guess? Psychic?

    When I was a senior at this elite Catholic all-boys high school, I wrote an article in the school paper 1) calling attention to the fact that date-rape was going on – there were specific cases that I had heard about from reliable sources and 2) suggesting that the school do something (educationally, disciplinarily) about the problem…

    This was 10 years ago.

    What was the response? Did the school panic, set in place a date-rape education program? Contact me to find out the student(s) in question so they could intervene? No – I had the headmaster approach me, take me under his arm, and tell me I had better be really fucking sure of the crap I was spreading, and imply there would be big problems for me if this went anywhere…. Luckily it was the spring – I’d already gotten into college…

    And luckily for them, the issue went away. For 10 years. And now it’s on CNN.

  15. Yep.
    April 18, 2006 at 11:23 am

    I appreciate the balanced analysis, Jill, but one thing bothers me:

    numerous complaints for things like public urination and drunkenness

    Probably half of all college-aged males have committed these heinous crimes. Getting drunk and urinating in public does not correlate with raping strippers (or anyone, for that matter), and has nothing to do with perceived privilege. It doensn’t strengthen the argument for guilt–it only makes it appear that you’re looking for reasons to presume guilt.

    And as for this:

    My question is why didn’t Duke threaten to revoke their scholarships (as far as I know they are still on scholarship) when they all circled the wagons and wouldn’t talk.

    Why didn’t they just pile rocks on their chests until they “confessed?”

  16. April 18, 2006 at 11:23 am

    I see nothing but jealousy and reverse prejudicer from you people. Just because they go to Duke and perhaps come from wealthy families they are guilty. There is no evidence to suggesat they did anything and if you are going to hold a previous assualt as evidence then you should hold the previous charges of trying to run over a cop by the accused.

    Good try, but no. First, as for the jealousy thing, that’s silly. As a sidenote, I almost went to Duke for law school, then chose NYU instead. So jealousy isn’t really a great argument. And I can think of a lot of people who I’d rather be than a Duke lacrosse player from New Jersey.

    Second, there certainly is evidence. “No DNA evidence” does not equal “no evidence.” If they’re being arrested, there’s probably evidence that they did something. Doesn’t mean that they’re guilty, but it’s fairly rare for people to be indicted when there’s absolutely no evidence at all that they did anything.

    Third, the previous assault demonstrates violent tendancies on behalf of the accused. The accuser stealing a car doesn’t impinge her credibility; if she had, for example, lied about being raped before, that would impinge her credibility. Having committed a crime is not evidence of one not being the victim of a crime. Committing a violent crime is not evidence of committing another violent crime, but it does demonstrate a propensity to commit violent acts. See how that works? It’s not hard.

  17. bmc90
    April 18, 2006 at 11:25 am

    I agree with post #2 insofar that even without a rape, the participants do not deserve a degree from Duke, much less a scholarship. And the attention they are getting might just be a little wakeup call others who are similarly situated could use before it is too late. Lessee – we have a rowdy party in a residential community, 911 calls about racial slurs being yelled at community members, underage drinking, all taking place in a house owned by Duke itself, and sex workers. If you can afford two strippers at $800 you don’t need a scholarship. Any one of the things I listed above could get you kicked out of many universities. And that’s the stuff there is essentially not much dispute about. If no one is guilty of rape, fine, but I’d still be ashamed to have the same degree as the people who participated in this, and if Duke lacks a sense of shame, it’s astounding it accepts the potential liability of keeping these guys around.

  18. April 18, 2006 at 11:28 am

    What point is there in convicting people based on accusation only? How, exactly, is this different from the mindset that sends people to Guantanamo and revokes their writ of habeas corpus?

    Oh, right, it isn’t. It’s nice to know we have some support for torture in this crowd. Sheesh.

    Um… conflate much? Speculating as to whether someone is guilty or innocent of a crime, or talking about race/class within the context of said case, is not the same thing as arguing that accused rapists should be held indefinitely with no access to counsel. No one has said that. Not even close. Guantanamo is a pretty ridiculous comparison.

    Did you even read the post? This might help:

    So before we do all that yet again, let it be said: Feministe is not a court of law. We aren’t here to convict or exonerate anyone. In a court of law, the accused is assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. That’s a good standard for our legal system, but it doesn’t mean that we can’t talk about the implications of this case without always adding on, “But they could be innocent” at the end.

  19. April 18, 2006 at 11:28 am

    i’m curious if any of y’all live in Durham?

    first – to Josh. D1 lacrosse gets 12 scholarships. There are 47 players on the Duke team. I doubt that anyone is on more than 1/2 scholarship, and i’m sure that most of the players are not on athletic scholarship at all.

    second, you do raise a good point, and one that i’ve made before. That is, by their own admission, the captains of the team engaged in providing alcohol to underage team members and hiring strippers for a team party. Without any other incidents occuring, these alone should have been enough for the Duke to have taken action against the team and its members. Add in rumors that the coach is said to have paid for the strippers, and you’ve got a situation that reflects badly enough on the University that Brodhead should have stepped in immediately and demanded Pressler’s resignation without waiting for McFadyen’s email to be made public.

    Now, add in the history of that particular block of houses which adjoin Duke’s East campus. For years, these have been student party houses in an area that has seen property values rise significantly. Many hard working Durham residents have been complaining to the police for years about Duke students along this block, and their public drunkenness, puking in neighbors’ gardens, pissing on neighbors’ houses, minor vandalism, etc. It is not, as the national media tends to portray it, simply a case of “poor, urban, black Durham” vs “rich, white, privileged Duke.” Just 6 weeks before this incident, Duke made a huge media deal about purchasing a dozen properties along this block (at substantially above market rates), preparing to not renew any leases, and sell the homes to owner occupants, with covenants preventing their return to the rental market. Neighborhood and civic leaders throughout the city applauded Duke for finally taking this step. The house at 610 Buchanan was one of these properties.

    Like many other Universities, and Brodhead’s previous gig at Yale is prominent on the list, Duke’s relationship with its surrounding town is questionable. Some articles and editorials in the Duke Chronicle have suggested that Durham is too scary a place for Duke undergraduates to venture out in, and a University official made no friends with Durham residents by sending out a blast email to the student body claiming to have heard a rumor that drive-by shootings were being threatened in retaliation for the alleged rape.

    No such incidents have occured, and for a person with the rank of Vice-Provost to engage in such rumor mongering is kind of unfathomable, and counter-productive at best. At its worst, it reinforces the notion that Duke views itself as a fortress of privilege to be defended against the barbarian hordes of Durham at all costs. Which negates the years of hard work that other University and community leaders have put in trying to eliminate town-gown barriers, and create an environment in which both Duke and Durham are able to benefit from each other.

    Lastly, we don’t want the national media, Huskie McThroatspray (as one Atrios commenter dubbed her) and the rest of the ratings whores, in our town, misrepresenting Durham to the rest of the country either. We know pretty much just how gritty our town is. We don’t need to hear demagogues and speeches from “people who know better than we do” about race, class, and gender divides. We know that real estate prices are starting to get out of hand, and that gentrification is starting to displace some of the less fortunate among us. But we also know, and the rest of you don’t, that there are new affordable housing communities being developed, and older ones being revitalized. We know that 2 bedroom, 1 bath houses in decent neighborhoods can still be purchased for under $100k, and that your neighbors are just as likely to be white as black, latino, Asian, gay, straight, under 20 or over 60 or whatever. We like it that way.

    And we’re pretty sure that justice will be served in this case.

  20. April 18, 2006 at 11:31 am

    Deborah sez:

    The wingnuts are so true to form. Two days ago they said there was no case and wouldn’t be any arrests. Now they’re just rewriting their spin a little, saying that, oh sure, there are arrests, but they “boys” are innocent. This is what they always do. Change the story every time they’re proven wrong.

    WMDs. Regime change. Democratization. No wonder they call it spin; I’m dizzy.

    Now there may be some breakdown of sympathy along political lines here, but that strikes me as no good reason for everyone to make (frankly) insulting, stupid judgments about commentators’ attitudes toward Iraq etc. based on their skepticism about this case. I’m inclined to say that in general the correlation between ‘supporting democratization in the Middle East’ and ‘assuming no rape occurred’ is pretty goddamned weak – and so is a general argument about our society that rests on such reductive terms.

    Until more facts come out any carrying-on about likely guilt or innocence is just – if you’ll pardon the expression – amateurish dick-waving. It’s one thing to point out the (un)fairness of media coverage or the sleaziness of defense-lawyer tactics or the curiosities of the community’s response (or, say, the admirable if slightly overwrought community letter from the Duke president), but it’s quite another, uglier thing to play the sport of one-upmanship and breast-beating every time someone is raped.

    Giving all people the ‘benefit of the doubt’ isn’t in the end a great strategy. But neither is spewing vitriol at a hat-drop. I begin to wonder whether the entire point of such posturing isn’t to set up the eventual feeling of vindication and crowing at the ‘wingnuts’ (or vice versa, of course)…

  21. zuzu
    April 18, 2006 at 11:37 am

    Wax, I think Deborah was thinking more of the wingnut punditocracy, which has in fact changed its tune now that the indictments have been handed down.

    Did we get a link somewhere? All these new people are visiting.

  22. Fitz
    April 18, 2006 at 11:38 am

    I can’t say I have followed this case in micro-detail. However as a attorney with experience in criminal court (clerk) & defense work, I have some impulses that are yet to be satisfied. It would seem to me that some person or more likely group of persons on the lacrosse team would role over on the perpetrators. I cant imagine a sports team hanging together like even the organized crime cant seem to! Nobody’s going to get wacked for rating out their teammates here. Furthermore, they all want to move on with their up-worldly mobile Ivy league lives. Turning on your sports team is great résumé building especially if you want to avoid the stain of scandal in your prime earning years.

    So that’s my only Red Flag….
    If theirs something to tell, they’ll tell it- Perhaps they have already, and that’s the reason for the two indictments. It’s the prosecutions best chance for an conviction. Eye witnesses and corroboration of the women’s story would negate any lack of physical evidence. Jury’s love sworn testimony.

  23. kth
    April 18, 2006 at 11:50 am

    Maybe someone could find out if the race of the two strippers was some random occurrence, or if they asked for black girls. Because if they did, that’s really messed up apart from the larger issue of whether they raped one of them.

    Losers hire strippers/hookers because that’s the only way they can get women that they find appealing. It’s safe to assume that the lacrosse players weren’t acting from such a sense of privation, but that they hired these strippers primarily to humiliate them, or to dominate them. And it’s in this context that the race of the escorts becomes an issue.

  24. April 18, 2006 at 11:50 am

    zuzu – atrios links to this post. also, as a Durham resident, i’ve been trying to follow as much of the blogosphere as i can stand on this.

  25. Glenn
    April 18, 2006 at 11:56 am

    Yep says:

    Probably half of all college-aged males have committed these heinous crimes. Getting drunk and urinating in public does not correlate with raping strippers (or anyone, for that matter), and has nothing to do with perceived privilege. It doensn’t strengthen the argument for guilt–it only makes it appear that you’re looking for reasons to presume guilt.

    Let’s just remember that PI is one of those crimes that (quite often, anyway) the cops charge you with because you’ve been engaging in more offensive behavior but not quite enough to make out a more serious charge. I think it’s fairly rare, outside of Texas these days anyway, for anyone to get charged with PI for doing nothing more than simply being intoxicated in public. Quite often it’s for being in a fight, or engaging in obnoxious and harassing behavior, etc. We of course don’t know that’s true in these cases, but I think one can fairly assume the frequency of such incidents on this team at least suggests a propensity for behavior tending towards violence, as well as a general tolerance for such behavior by the Duke powers-that-be.

    Of course, that’s a long way from rape and kidnapping. But I don’t think the history of PI incidents is totally irrelevant here.

  26. Stacy
    April 18, 2006 at 11:57 am

    Man, this is just too good to pass up.

    Perhaps Duke and other med schools should rethink how they train the nurses and MD’s who do med exams in cases of alleged sex assault. It seems best to just record objective findings. Leave out comments about how the “affect” is consistent or not consistent with having been through a rape. Also leave out characterization of the observed injuries, if any, as consistent or not consistent with forced sex. The injuries are what they are.

    I totally agree. I think in murder cases too, they shouldn’t say that injuries are consistent with say for example, a knife wound. I think they should just say, “Damn, that dude’s got a big ‘ol hole in his chest! Imagine that! How do ya think that got there? Guess we’ll never know.”

    Case closed.

    Let the jury decide what must have happened. Here, it looks like the MD and nurse came up with “false positive” med exam test results for rape.

    And did you draw this conclusion by actual evidence to back up this claim, or do you just really really really really really want to “prove” this woman is a lying whore, to the point that you have blinded yourself to what the evidence actually is?

    Man, you know people are desparate when they start pulling arguments like this out of thier ass. What’s really sad is what they are so desparate for.

    I suspect the folks that sign up to do “rape kit” exams (should be “alleged rape kit” or simply “med exam”) are naturally biased toward finding sex assault. Then, over time, I suspect they are trained and groomed primarily by DA’s and police to become still more biased.

    Naw, that moonbat conspiracy theory doesn’t work, because we could easily claim the same about the DNA labs. Let’s try a different moonbat conspiracy theory.

    Ooo! Ooo! I know! How about this. I bet, after she left the party, that she paid Jesse Jackson to beat the shit out of her and rape her! Yeah! To get whitey! Yeah!

  27. Stacy
    April 18, 2006 at 12:01 pm

    Apologies if the above post is innapropriate. I just felt I should give cfw’s argument the respect it deserved.

  28. cdo
    April 18, 2006 at 12:02 pm

    THink logically people, if they raped her, they would have expected DNA to be found. The lawyers would have asked them if they had sex with her, if any had said yes, the attorney wouldnt be saying, “no one had sex with her”, they would be saying, “it was consensual sex” because once the DNA was found the case would have been over and they would be convicted.

    Logic people, use it, it can answer many questions.

    OOH and KTH,
    this is a stupid statement, almost sounds prejudice to me.

    “kth Says:
    April 18th, 2006 at 11:50 am

    Maybe someone could find out if the race of the two strippers was some random occurrence, or if they asked for black girls. Because if they did, that’s really messed up apart from the larger issue of whether they raped one of them.”

    why do you have an issue with people preferring black strippers, do you like white people or black, fat or skinny. We have our preferences.

    Think before you type.

  29. April 18, 2006 at 12:04 pm

    THink logically people, if they raped her, they would have expected DNA to be found.

    You are aware that rape can occur without ejaculation. Rape can occur without a penis. People can be assaulted with objects.

    To quote, “Think before you type.”

  30. zuzu
    April 18, 2006 at 12:05 pm

    cdo, cut the ad hominems or you’re banned.

  31. April 18, 2006 at 12:10 pm

    Maybe someone could find out if the race of the two strippers was some random occurrence, or if they asked for black girls. Because if they did, that’s really messed up apart from the larger issue of whether they raped one of them.

    i have heard both that they did and did not specifically request black dancers, but the only attribution i have is from Cheshire (defense attorney) saying they did not, inresponse to a Jesse Jackson statement.

  32. April 18, 2006 at 12:12 pm

    Logic people, use it, it can answer many questions.

    I really want to edit that sentence.

  33. cdo
    April 18, 2006 at 12:17 pm

    Jill

    think, they would have expected or their lawyers would have after they told them sex did happen, that DNA would be found. No respectable lawyer at that point would take the risk of DNA being found and say no sex happened prior to the test results, they would say consensual. This i know without a doubt

    Ban me then, if you are so trivial as to ban me for my statement and not his for the prejudicial content, then there are better sites for me to frequent

    cya

  34. bmc90
    April 18, 2006 at 12:17 pm

    Yep, while I strongly disagree with persecuting people over stuff like public drunk and underage drinking, it does bother me to hear that citizens (one a councilperson) would find these guys urinating in their yards routinely, tell them to stop, and the guy would tell them to **** off. That’s not youthful indiscretion. That’s disrespect and the inability to abide by community laws on a regular basis. I was no saint in college and super lucky I did not get both kicked out and charged with underage drinking (my friends lied to the cops about my age while I was passed out and I had no ID on me – thank god). BTW, those same friends, all guys, called 911 and saved my life, and in no way took advantage of the situation (and there were 5 of them – I was the only woman). Not all men are slaves to baser instincits, I have good reason to know. So I get that there but for the grace of the lord we all go BUT you remain responsible for what you do while you are drunk, and that inludes yelling inappropriate things, destroying property, send e-mail about skinning people, driving and then turning around and doing it all over again weekend after weekend, party after party. Eventually, it catches up to you. And CM, I condemn the participants for the stuff they ADMIT to doing regardless of the alleged rape. If my parents who were struggling to send me to a school just as expensive as Duke found out I had $800 to spend on strippers, plus that I was underage drinking in a situation where you are very likely to get busted (house in a community off campus, but owned by the school – at my college cops did not go on to campus unless a student called 911 or we were so noisy the neghbors could hear a dorm party, which only happened once in 4 years) I would have been back home going to community college in a heartbeat.

  35. Rev. Jesse Jackson
    April 18, 2006 at 12:20 pm

    Ooo! Ooo! I know! How about this. I bet, after she left the party, that she paid Jesse Jackson to beat the shit out of her and rape her! Yeah! To get whitey! Yeah!

    I not only deny those alligations, I deny the alligator!

  36. Rev. Al Sharpton
    April 18, 2006 at 12:21 pm

    Ooo! Ooo! I know! How about this. I bet, after she left the party, that she paid Jesse Jackson to beat the shit out of her and rape her! Yeah! To get whitey! Yeah!

    Yes, that was my doing….

  37. hanna joergel
    April 18, 2006 at 12:22 pm

    Barry,

    I live in Durham too. I live right down the street from the house, close enough to awake to the sound of pots and pans and drums a couple of weeks ago from the demonstrations but far enough away to miss all the party noise.

    I have taught these men-I mean, members of the lacrosse team, but not these specific men who have been arrested. One of the best students I ever had was on the lacrosse team. You know, the type who stay after class to further discuss the topic while the rest were zipped up and ready to dash 5 minutes before class ended.

    When my dog was a puppy, he met his first ever “PIZZA DELIVERY MAN” (a most interesting human speciman) right on the steps of that very house. Walking him weekend mornings, I always have to pull him off the puddles of vomit he finds so deliciously scrumptious.

    I had a student last spring who was moving into a house around the corner on Demerius with a bunch of guys and they each contributed $500 dollars to a legal fund to pay all of the party fines they anticipated. He matter-of-factly shared this tidbit unapologetically during pre-class chit chat. The other privileged types chimed in and talked about how ridiculous the neighbors (read: tax-paying, permanent residents) were. The non-privileged types didn’t say anything. (I have to include myself among the latter)

    On the other hand, I often find myself saying, “if you don’t like raucous students, don’t live across the street from a university.”

    I’m actually moving away at the end of the month. I don’t even want to tell people in my new town where I used to live because I’m sick of talking about this thing. It’s weird. Casual conversations with fellow dog-walkers have been uncomfortable. People take one side one day and the other the next, swaying in the wind. I guess I’m doing a little of that too.

    Duke-neyland is a weird little corner of the universe. Difficult to describe to outsiders. Durham really isn’t as scary as the Duke students make it out to be. There are some things I’ll really miss. Trinity park town-gown relations is not one of them.

  38. April 18, 2006 at 12:23 pm

    think, they would have expected or their lawyers would have after they told them sex did happen, that DNA would be found. No respectable lawyer at that point would take the risk of DNA being found and say no sex happened prior to the test results, they would say consensual. This i know without a doubt

    Not if they, for example, raped her with a broom handle like they threatened to. No DNA there. Condoms also get rid of a whole lot of DNA evidence.

    Think.

  39. geoduck2
    April 18, 2006 at 12:30 pm

    Lo and behold – 1 of the two charged, AND the writer of the Batemanite email – attended MY HIGH SCHOOL.

    Wow. (I noticed that a player on the team went to Glenbrook South High School, located in a suburb on the north shore of Chicago. I would have gone to high school at Glenbrook North if my family didn’t move to the West Coat when I was 13. Glenbrook South is an elite public high school.)
    —–

    Jill – I agree that something is going on here. The fact that one of these students was previously involved in a gay-bashing assult is very telling.

    By the way, I can’t beleive some of these comments on this thread. The hostility to the town of Durham is wierd and seems to be thinly veiled racism.

  40. kth
    April 18, 2006 at 12:32 pm

    why do you have an issue with people preferring black strippers, do you like white people or black, fat or skinny. We have our preferences.

    Because the context matters: this wouldn’t be an example of an individual preference, but of two performers being cast in roles as part of a ritual of domination/humiliation. If one of the lacrosse players had called the escort service, and requested a black girl to spend the evening with, just the two of them, I’d have no problem, but of course that would never happen. And of course if some of the lacrosse players really want to date young black women (though I laugh as I type this), they are probably plenty who would go out with them for free if they asked nicely enough.

    Remember, these same guys are given to hurling racial epithets at passers-by, so they didn’t hire black girls because they were more attracted to them, but because humiliating them would be more fun. As to the other responses: how likely is it that the race of the strippers was an accident? Seriously, it seems like an important enough issue that maybe some enterprising young journalist could check into it.

  41. cdo
    April 18, 2006 at 12:36 pm

    all of you need to deal with the current facts and not the ones you want to believe.

    Jill is saying they threatened to rape her with a broom handle….hmmm….link, proof, anything aside from an attempted cop killing accuser saying such?

    then KTH is stating emphatically they called her racial slurs. This little “fact” was stated by the other stripper, who has already been proven a liar.

    unreal

  42. cdo
    April 18, 2006 at 12:37 pm

    BTW, i live here in Durham also.

  43. cdo
    April 18, 2006 at 12:39 pm

    “Ooo! Ooo! I know! How about this. I bet, after she left the party, that she paid Jesse Jackson to beat the shit out of her and rape her! Yeah! To get whitey! Yeah!”

    Hey Al Sharpton,

    wouldnt be the first time, what was her name again…Tawany Brawley

  44. zuzu
    April 18, 2006 at 12:42 pm

    DINGDINGDING!

    We have another winnah in the Troll Sweepstakes!

  45. cfw
    April 18, 2006 at 12:42 pm

    If it was rape with a foreign object, why was that not inthe search warrant? That tack was not taken by the V, yes? And she does not claim to have been unconscious.

    “Naw, that moonbat conspiracy theory doesn’t work, because we could easily claim the same about the DNA labs.”

    The DNA labs have a neutral name. The “rape kit” is equally neutral? One must think this through objectively – as if one’s brother or son were the accused, yes? In addition, one must hypothesize the V is a family member. Then, pick an objective label for the tests being used. One does this “recalibration to neutrality” because one seeks objective truth, not some partisan success.

    “And did you draw this conclusion by actual evidence to back up this claim,”

    No DNA evidence where one would expect to find some strongly refutes Nifong, in my view. I do not buy the Nifong assurance that 80% of cases like this have no relevant DNA evidence. Is there any statistical study that you know of that supports that Nifong “thumb on the scale of justice” comment?

    “do you just really really really really really want to ‘prove’ this woman is a lying whore, to the point that you have blinded yourself to what the evidence actually is?”

    Lying – I would say probably yes. Whore – not my contention.

    The evidence that convinces you is what? She has made no statement under oath that I have seen. She went to no in-person line-up. The DNA analysis does not support her.

    “I think in murder cases too, they shouldn’t say that injuries are consistent with say for example, a knife wound. I think they should just say, ‘Damn, that dude’s got a big ‘ol hole in his chest! Imagine that! How do ya think that got there? Guess we’ll never know.'”

    That is all the MD or nurse gets to say, without some objective way of proving the wound was by knife as opposed to by some other weapon, where the cause of the wound is disputed.

    All we have from Duke med school is a nurse and an MD (pathologist). The defense will no doubt move to exclude any opinions from the nurse or the MD about “this must have been rape” or “affect proved rape” or “redness in anal and vaginal area proved rape.” These care providers are not rape experts – there is no such thing. In a case with a live alleged rape victm, Judge would probably be reversed if he or she allowed in any sort of “this must have been rape” opinions from the nurse or pathologist. DA argument should not be confused with admissible evidence.

  46. April 18, 2006 at 12:45 pm

    all of you need to deal with the current facts and not the ones you want to believe.

    Jill is saying they threatened to rape her with a broom handle….hmmm….link, proof, anything aside from an attempted cop killing accuser saying such?

    then KTH is stating emphatically they called her racial slurs. This little “fact” was stated by the other stripper, who has already been proven a liar.

    unreal

    this little fact has been confirmed by an unrelated third party.

  47. cdo
    April 18, 2006 at 12:47 pm

    link us up then Barry

    supply the facts

  48. zuzu
    April 18, 2006 at 12:48 pm

    cfw, we’ve been over this about the rape kit on another thread.

    It’s called a “rape kit” because it’s a kit that’s used in collecting medical evidence during an exam when someone has reported being raped. I don’t see what’s so prejudicial about that, any more than calling something a “theft deterrent” or “fraud prevention” or what have you.

    Moreover, the examining medical team has not said “she was raped,” they have said that she has injuries inconsistent with consensual sex or that she has injuries consistent with forced penetration. That kind of statement is perfectly admissible, which is why it’s put that way to begin with.

  49. Didi Hylobates
    April 18, 2006 at 12:49 pm

    I went to much older, more stablished schools in the Northeast and when this sort of thing happened there the schools cut the strings and let the [alleged] bastards fend for themselves. I feel sorry for the Duke students who have to watch their classmates, administration, and alumni organizations bend over backwards to accomodate an archaic jocktocracy. That the Duke community is rallying behind these thugs is only indicative of how primitive it is as an educational institution. Maybe it’s a Southern thing because it is not the universal reaction among elite institutions.

  50. cdo
    April 18, 2006 at 12:53 pm

    more slander supplied by Didi

    why are they thugs, did they try to run over a cop like the accuser did?

    I feel sorry for all of Duke also, because we have a DA playing politics with the students lives and ruining our great reputation

  51. cdo
    April 18, 2006 at 12:54 pm

    UPDATE:

    Just heard on the news, that one of the accused has a ATM and taxi recepits, showing they werent at the party when the accuser said she was raped

  52. Fitz
    April 18, 2006 at 12:55 pm

    No one has commented on my (above) truculent & cogent (if I must say myself) observation concerning the possibility of members of the team squealing each other out. This is S.O.P. by prosecutors and may account for these recent indictments. I challenge anyone to maintain that this lacrosse team represents the kind of lacosa nostra that could maintain a code of silence under this kind of scrutiny. If there is a truth to be known, and any of the accused knows it, there bound to fold and corroborate the women’s account. No?

  53. Stacy
    April 18, 2006 at 12:56 pm

    cdo –

    Deal with the current fact that the woman was examined and shown to have injuries that are consistant with sexual assault. It’s not going to go away, no matter how much you try and ignore it.

    What the actual outcome of this case is, or what actually happened that night, we don’t know. But, being that she did have these injuries, you can’t deny that she does indeed have a case. If you were honest about the desire to ‘not be prejudmental’ you would acknowledge this and hang back with us “wait and see” ers. Instead, you try to call people racists and make unproven statements regarding the other stripper being a liar (I’m curious how that was “proved”, is it because the defense attorney said so?), and use words like “cop killer” to descibe the woman, while at the same time ignoring previous charges brought against certain members of the Lacrosse team.

    I’d look in the mirror, buddy. You obviously have your own mind made up, and it shows through your rhetoric.

  54. April 18, 2006 at 12:59 pm

    # cdo Says:
    April 18th, 2006 at 12:37 pm

    BTW, i live here in Durham also.

    good. then you’re probably already aware that Rev. Sharpton was discouraged from coming to Durham by members of the black community who felt that his presence was unnecessary. And waving the Sharpton straw man (as well as the Jesse Jackson straw man) is utterly irrelevant to the process of justice seeking that is going on in our community.

    The facts remain thus: the DA believes a crime occured, he has presented evidence to the grand jury, and indictments have been returned. Those named in the indictments have been arrested and released on bond.

    A trial will take place barring a plea bargain, and given how much money has clearly been spent on hiring some of the most expensive lawyers on the east cost, one doubts that a plea bargain is in the works.

    With luck, the trial will be moved to another venue owing to pre-trial publicity, and we’ll be spared the CourtTV and Fox News spectacle that it will turn into. If the prosecution’s case is as weak as you seem to think it is, then he’ll be unable to obtain a conviction.

    The question i will then ask you, is, what is the difference between Duke lacrosse players and OJ Simpson?

  55. zuzu
    April 18, 2006 at 12:59 pm

    Oh, I think you’re right, Fitz. I think the rolling-over is one of the things that may have led to the indictments. It just stands to reason that someone is going to break ranks when it’s hammered home exactly what it means to take a dive for your teammates/friends (not all the guys at the party were on the team) in terms of future reputation, ability to get a job, etc.

  56. geoduck2
    April 18, 2006 at 1:00 pm

    Fitz,

    My guess is that someone is already co-operating. The e-mail sent by a lacrosse player got to the police; my guess is that one of the recipients turned it over to the police.

  57. April 18, 2006 at 1:01 pm

    # cdo Says:
    April 18th, 2006 at 12:47 pm

    link us up then Barry

    supply the facts

    my post contains a link.

    # cdo Says:
    April 18th, 2006 at 12:54 pm

    UPDATE:

    Just heard on the news, that one of the accused has a ATM and taxi recepits, showing they werent at the party when the accuser said she was raped

    does yours?

  58. zuzu
    April 18, 2006 at 1:02 pm

    Actually, Barry, your link is broken. Try again?

  59. cdo
    April 18, 2006 at 1:03 pm

    Deal with the current fact that the woman was examined and shown to have injuries that are consistant with sexual assault.>>

    You mean like Tawana Brawley?

    I do disagree that injuries consistent with forceable sex is enough to show she has a case. If she was willing to run over a cop, she is willing to use dildos to support her story.

    People do crazy things, see Tawana Brawley

    who ar e the wait and seers, the ones here making up facts, like they threatened to rape her with a broom handle?

    the other stripper is proven to be a liar, do you know her first story to police was, she was driving down the street and saw the accuser and had never met her before. That was until the Duke players provided pictures that she was with the accuser that night in the house. This is a fact.

  60. cdo
    April 18, 2006 at 1:05 pm

    Barry

    I am not the one who posted under the sharpton and jackson ID, i used thieir post to support the fact, people do crazy things to themselves and make crazy stuff up.

    Tawana Brawley, enough said.

  61. April 18, 2006 at 1:05 pm

    Link

    sorry about that.

    i tested it this time.

  62. evil_fizz
    April 18, 2006 at 1:06 pm

    cdo, you clearly have no idea what slander is (false statements that damage another’s reputation.) Quit throwing around legal terms that you don’t understand.

  63. zuzu
    April 18, 2006 at 1:06 pm

    cdo, you’re in moderation until you stop frothing.

  64. evil_fizz
    April 18, 2006 at 1:11 pm

    People do crazy things, see Tawana Brawley

    The mere fact that people do crazy things is in no way indicative of what happened here. There are thousands more women who are victimized by rape than those who set up an elaborate hoax. To assume “OMG, it’s happened once before!!” means “That clearly proves a pattern and any black woman who accused privileged white man is a lying nutjob!” is stupid and racist. Drop it.

  65. bmc90
    April 18, 2006 at 1:12 pm

    Hylobates, is this a good time for me to shill for all-women undergraduate instutitions? I totally escaped the “jocktocracy” that was my southern high school, at least for 4 years. Now when I watch the rabid football fans each season with their intense hero worship, I just remind myself of Scarlett at that ball before Atlanta fell, when she realized that she did not really believe in the Southern cause, but she darn well better hide it (you have to read the novel to get that – sorry movie fans). When I visted co-ed, large universities in the south, I just realized it was high school part deux and couldn’t make myself do it. I can only theorize that there are a lot of people who support the jocktocracy to fit in, because it can’t be the joy of being around people who have had the worship and attention ever since they were young go straight to their heads. Personally I love martial arts since it downplays bragging, showing off, and group-think.

    My undergrad was great. The school basically would not itself bust you for anything that did not hurt other people, up to and including drugs and underage drinking. People partied out in the open, so there were a lot of witnesses and sober people to step in if anything started getting out of hand. The school itself only stepped in if you became a danger to yourself and others, and because there was very little pathology behind the partying (i.e. people with something to prove about their toughness or ability to be a jerk with impunity), that rarely happened.

    Oh – yeah and the racial slurs where heard by random neighbors who called 911. They have the tapes.

  66. Rachel
    April 18, 2006 at 1:16 pm

    Cdo,

    As a law student, we are constantly reminded by our criminal law professor that people often consent to be searched knowing they have drugs on them, waive their miranda rights to an attorney and silence, and also lie to their attorneys. These acts aren’t logical, but people do them for a variety of reasons.

    I would also like to second Jill’s point that there can be a rape/sexual assualt without and DNA evidence being produced.

    Finally, I would say, look at the other side from the victims perspective. You say that if there had actually been a sexual assault (which producies DNA, you assume), then the lax players would be smarter to argue that there had been consenual sex. Well, let’s give the victim the same respect and say that before she made her claim she must have been aware of her “lack of credibility” in her position as a stripper. Why would she choose to make up such an “outrageous” story knowing that she was unlikely to be believed?
    Overwhelmingly, women are still not believed when they tell people that they were raped. And we know this.
    I would also like to add, that it is very rare for prosecuters to prosecute this type of sexual assault and when they do, it generally means that they believe they have an airtight case.

  67. cm
    April 18, 2006 at 1:24 pm

    Jill (#19), I have to say that you mssed the point. Of course, it’s 50 some odd messages ago, but still.

    My point is that posters to the message have assumed an incredible amount of guilt on the part of the accused. Guilty until proven innocent. Those who accuse cdo or cfw of biased responses are right, because we SHOULD be biased. Innocent until proven guilty.

    It’s a fine bias to have. “Beyond a reasonable doubt” is a great idea. Too many in this conversation don’t have enough doubt. And that’s not rude toward the accusers, it’s actually meant to be fair. Doubt the crime, doubt the defendants, doubt the whole thing. Don’t trust anyone, the office-seeking DA, the lax players, the dancers. Doubt is the source of truth.

    For those who accuse and convict before evidence is in, well, what exactly is the difference between that mindset and the one of your average Republican voter who supports the prison camps? No, really, what IS the difference?

  68. April 18, 2006 at 1:34 pm

    For those who accuse and convict before evidence is in, well, what exactly is the difference between that mindset and the one of your average Republican voter who supports the prison camps? No, really, what IS the difference?

    Well, for one, this is a blog.

  69. Brendan
    April 18, 2006 at 1:42 pm

    The Finnerty kid grew up in my hometown of Garden City, NY, and went to my high school, where the lacrosse team has long had a reputation for out of control and inappropriate behavior, egged on in large part by the “my boys can do no wrong” attitude of the “legendary” LAX coach “Doc” Dougherty.

    I’m not even remotely surprised to hear that a GC Trojans player is mixed up in this mess, and even less surprised to hear that he and two of his thug teammates were previously involved in a gaybashing incident. I’m definitely carrying an innocent-until-proven-guilty view here, but I have to say that there is a culture on these teams that does not vilify behavior that could eventually be expected to result in a situation like this one.

  70. April 18, 2006 at 1:42 pm

    The court of public opinion is the marketplace of ideas that allows everyone a free say as to his or her own views. The CPO does not have the same stringent standards as an actual court of law, which is set up to make sure both sides are represented fairly and no one is railroaded into prison (although there are obviously holes in that supposedly failsafe mechanism). And even if we were to apply the “innocent until proven guilty” standard to the defendants, it definitely isn’t being fairly applied to the accuser. Every pundit has come up with his or her own view as to her means and motives for bringing these charges. So, giving due course, those who think she’s telling the truth have the same latitude to determine the means and motives of the players, who at the least, seemingly have no empathy for women, for black women, for a woman whom they said arrived beaten and bruised (really – and they didn’t call to ask for another dancer), and in one case, for gay persons just minding their business and walking down the street.

  71. April 18, 2006 at 1:45 pm

    It’s a fine bias to have. “Beyond a reasonable doubt” is a great idea. Too many in this conversation don’t have enough doubt. And that’s not rude toward the accusers, it’s actually meant to be fair. Doubt the crime, doubt the defendants, doubt the whole thing. Don’t trust anyone, the office-seeking DA, the lax players, the dancers. Doubt is the source of truth.

    For those who accuse and convict before evidence is in, well, what exactly is the difference between that mindset and the one of your average Republican voter who supports the prison camps? No, really, what IS the difference?

    95% of the people i talk with in Durham (an admittedly non-scientific sample), black and white, are satisfied with the way the criminal justice system is unfolding, and are not convicting anyone right now. we’re pretty much satisfied that, one way or another, justice will be served.

    the remaining 5% are like cdo, completely unhinged by the fact that anyone is giving any credibility to the allegations whatsoever, and constantly digging up “facts” to demonstrate the innocence of the accused.

    i have a certain amount of faith in both the medical and legal professionals who are involved in this case. i have no choice, actually, because that’s what i pay them to do. their judgement is that a crime was committed, and they think they have the evidence to prove who committed it. a jury will decide if they’re right.

    the divide that i see in town is essentially over whether the police, university, and media response would have been different had the victim been white Duke student, and the alleged perpetrators been black student athletes at NC Central University. i can’t disagree with those who say that, under those circumstances, things would indeed have been markedly different.

  72. kth
    April 18, 2006 at 1:51 pm

    cm, the court of public opinion isn’t the same as the court of law. Just because O.J. Simpson was acquitted doesn’t mean he has the right to have his reputation restored. Since we are powerless to deprive the accused of life, liberty, or property, we don’t have to observe the same burden of proof in our private judgments that a jury does.

    What I’ve been responding to is this sense from the partisans of the lacrosse players that their treatment thus far has been undeserved: that they were wrong when their season was cancelled and their coach’s resignation was accepted. But hiring strippers, even if they didn’t rape one of them, doesn’t pass the okey-dokey test (as a commenter on the Court TV boards put it), especially when you factor in the cultural considerations as I have attempted to.

    FWIW, I support bending over backwards to negate the Nancy Grace factor as much as possible and ensure that these guys get a fair trial, including a change of venue if they want it.

  73. R. Mildred
    April 18, 2006 at 1:52 pm

    Guilty until proven innocent.

    So short of a confession, what will exactly prove their guilt here? Because all the evidence that we’re aware of supports the strippers claim so far. Innocent until there’s proof otherwise you say, we say there’s proof, or is that platitude losing all meaning to you because people keep repeating it so often as a cheap and nonsensical way to ignore any facts that suggest the lacrosse players are guilty?

    No, really, what IS the difference?

    1) we have more than two brain cells to rub together
    2) we’re not sadists
    3) we are all Samuel T. Bigcock
    4) we aren’t all closeted male homosexual submissives
    5) we don’t advocate torture
    6) we don’t actually advocate locking up the lacrosse players before they have a trial and then torturing a confession out of them
    7) we aren’t jurors in the case and aren’t required by law and the justice system to hold our opinons of the case up to the twin standards of “guilty until proven innocent” and “beyond a reasonable doubt”, and so we do not have to play the same little “let’s pretend we’re jurors in the case” game as you want us too so that nobody points at the giant elephant in the room with the words “the lacrosse players raped the stripper, signed, the lacrosse players” written on its side
    8) we don’t enjoy the idea of black women being raped by upper class white guys
    9) we don’t assume that a black stripper is automatically lying because she’s a black stripper and white upperclass rapists say she’s lying
    10) we don’t enjoy the idea of raping 11 year old children with flash lights

    Any of those standards too lax, or are WE guilty until proven innocent?

  74. bmc90
    April 18, 2006 at 1:54 pm

    CM, sweetie, I’m sure many of the Guantanamo detainees would LOVE the chance to post $400,000 bond and have a trial in front of a jury of their peers. They won’t. The arrested lax players are already out, not on a plane bound for Cuba having been arrested in their own living rooms, as is the case for some of the detainees. Another pair of detainees were found by a military tribunal to have no links to terrorism over a year ago, but they are still in Cuba because no country will take them (the would probably be tourtured and killed if retunred to their native China). Don’t compare the two situations. These guys are going to get a real trial, with real lawyers and a chance to prove their case, with all the presumptions weighing in their favor.

    Also, to take up Sharon’s point, what kind of people have someone who is drunk and beat up show up at their house and, instead of calling a doctor, offering to drive them home, or calling a friend for them, ask them to come in and perform whatever service they were hired for? I might be annoyed because I was expecting to have my dog walked or my house cleaned, but I’d also be concerned about their injuries and do something about it. If nothing else, I’d be worried about my own liability if they were not treated and dropped dead in my house. Jeeze.

  75. Didi Hylobates
    April 18, 2006 at 2:07 pm

    I think there are plenty of small to midsized co-ed colleges where, like mine, the jocks (not the same as athletes) are held in a sort of indifferent contempt. I don’t think one in ten students could have told you whether the footballigans were having a winning season or not (they weren’t). Of course the absence of jock dominance does not mean paradise. We had a baise beige tyranny like you wouldn’t believe. But it does cut down on the acceptance of sexual assault and the tribalistic urge to circle the wagons.

    What shocks me is that the Duke community feels this is something they really want to get behind. Seems to me, innocent or guilty, it’s a law enforcement issue and that the honor of the school is only at stake if the school community chooses to put it at stake.

  76. bmc90
    April 18, 2006 at 2:22 pm

    What is a baise beige tyranny?

  77. April 18, 2006 at 2:22 pm

    I’m a little more cynical than you, bmc90. I wouldn’t expect any empathy from a group who would let a woman perform with the physical conditions they described. After all, who is she to them? What I would expect would be for them to get all pissed to sh*t because they’d paid for “damaged goods” and call in a replacement.

    BTW, those reported photos do not prove that the rape occurred before the party because what was described as bruises and a skinned knee hardly rises to the level of being determined by an examining nurse as “traumatic”, which was the adjective described in the warrant at thesmokinggun. Also, we now know the police had her in lockup for about a half hour before they determined that she wasn’t drunk and needed medical attention. They had already seen the scrapes and bruises when they put her in lockup; something else had to trigger the alarm that made them think she had possibly been raped. I suspect an injured cervix or lacerated anus and vaginal areas. This is why I believe a rape occurred and why the DA is going through with the charges.

    For a good breakdown on the complexities of DNA testing and the factors critical in determining the outcome in a rape trial, see these links:

    http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/04/14/experts-answer-what-does-dna-evidence-prove/

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/lester_munson/04/18/duke/

  78. April 18, 2006 at 2:25 pm

    “I went to much older, more stablished schools in the Northeast and when this sort of thing happened there the schools cut the strings and let the [alleged] bastards fend for themselves… Maybe it’s a Southern thing because it is not the universal reaction among elite institutions.”

    Fuck you, Didi. Stay up North.

  79. zuzu
    April 18, 2006 at 2:27 pm

    colin, say fuck you again to anyone and you’re banned.

  80. CoRev
    April 18, 2006 at 2:30 pm

    There appears to be adequate evidence that an assault DID occur.

    But, if what CDO says is true,

    Just heard on the news, that one of the accused has a ATM and taxi recepits, showing they werent at the party when the accuser said she was raped,

    then a conviction will be extremely difficult.

    As far as I can see the case still breaks down to 1 she said and 46 he saids.

  81. April 18, 2006 at 2:31 pm

    Fair enough, Zuzu, and apologies. Just got steamed by Didi’s better-than-thou stance.

    Am wondering, though, would Yale fit her profile of an elite, established, Northeastern institution that would have cut the strings? They’re doing all they can to circle the wagons and protect Rahmatullah Hashemi…

  82. zuzu
    April 18, 2006 at 2:36 pm

    And that’s relevant to this how?

  83. Josh
    April 18, 2006 at 2:42 pm

    My question is why didn’t Duke threaten to revoke their scholarships (as far as I know they are still on scholarship) when they all circled the wagons and wouldn’t talk.

    Why didn’t they just pile rocks on their chests until they “confessed?”

    Please distinguish between confessing to a crime under threat of physical harm and cooperating with a police investigation under threat of losing your free ride.

  84. April 18, 2006 at 2:43 pm

    Regarding the sudden info about the ATM slips: either the DA is shoddy in his investigations, or the defense is deliberately holding out, then leaking exculpatory evidence to embarrass the DA, which is in their right.

    And I wonder if there isn’t some techno shenanigans going on: camera time recalibrations, date stampings…now I’m starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist.

  85. Stacy
    April 18, 2006 at 2:48 pm

    who ar e the wait and seers, the ones here making up facts, like they threatened to rape her with a broom handle?

    No, the ones that make up facts are the ones who say:

    Deal with the current fact that the woman was examined and shown to have injuries that are consistant with sexual assault.

    You mean like Tawana Brawley?

    Tawana Brawley’s rape kit did not indicate that there was a sexual assault. I think that was one of the main things that led the jury to rule against her, actually.

    Try again, kiddo.

  86. bmc90
    April 18, 2006 at 2:49 pm

    Don’t remember the alleged time of the crime being reported anywhere. How did Mr. ATM receipt know what time the crime was alleged to have occured? Hmmmn? I

  87. Stacy
    April 18, 2006 at 2:52 pm

    Did we get a link to the ATM/Taxi receipt thingy? I’d like to see it, but I couldn’t find anything about it when I googled it an hour ago or so…

  88. April 18, 2006 at 2:53 pm

    Good point, bmc90. And how long is a credit card or ATM transaction? Someone can easily leave a party, go to an ATM for money, then come back for what ever shenanigans he has planned. After all the dancers arrived at 11:30 or something like that and didn’t leave until about after 1. Those receipts don’t preclude the accused from being at the party at some point in time.

  89. zuzu
    April 18, 2006 at 2:56 pm

    And is taxi-taking common in Durham?

  90. hanna joergel
    April 18, 2006 at 3:04 pm

    No, not common at all.

  91. hanna joergel
    April 18, 2006 at 3:08 pm

    Or…maybe I chimed in too soon. I think I do see taxis picking up some students from the campus on weekends/evenings. You would have to call for one, they aren’t just roaming the streets in the neighborhood looking for fares, so documentation should be available.

  92. April 18, 2006 at 3:09 pm

    more slander supplied by Didi

    …did you hear anything? Because I didn’t, and last I checked “slander” is spoken. Perhaps you meant “libel,” but we already went over that.

  93. Momto3
    April 18, 2006 at 3:10 pm

    You’re right, the one accused has a record. But the “victim” also has a record. A violent record of trying to run down a police officer w/a car she had stolen.

    Other articles have been offended that she’s been typecast as a “stripper”. Well, she is a stripper, a profession she choose. And yes, she’s also a mother. So was Andrea Yates. And Susan Smith. That’s hardly a reason to believe her or to find her more credible.

  94. Didi Hylobates
    April 18, 2006 at 3:17 pm

    Colin: I’m a dude. It’s Didi not DeeDee. Yes, it is ethnic. Hashemi has caused quite a lot of division within Yale and its alumni community. Check out Clint Taylor’s “Nail Yale.” Furthermore he was a representative of a government recognized by ours and which was a recipient of US aid (primarily poppy eradication) during much of his tenure. So it’s not really analogous. As for better-than-thou I don’t mean to suggest that I am better than anyone only that the clubby upper class of the North has a better way of dealing with these things than the storied gentlemen of the gallant South.

    bmc90: Hegemony of the dull. Mediocracy. Preferable but irritating.

  95. April 18, 2006 at 3:20 pm

    And is taxi-taking common in Durham?

    zuzu: relatively. Most Duke students have cars, but will often take taxis to clubs or to go out drinking. Could go either way.

    Also, Duke students commenting on this thread: please use correct grammar and punctuation. You are lowering the market value of my degree. Thanks.

  96. April 18, 2006 at 3:20 pm

    Here’s a link to an ABC News story that mentions credit card and cell phone evidence.

    There are plenty of taxis in Durham, but as mentioned above, no “cruising” yellow cabs. You can always see people waiting for cabs at the grocery store, etc.

    The time frame is also fairly well documented, with the arrival of the two women sometime after 11:30 pm, and with the two calls placed to 911 at a few minutes before 1 AM (the racial slurs call) and about 20 minutes past 1 AM (the security guard at Kroger call).

  97. April 18, 2006 at 3:21 pm

    But the “victim” also has a record. A violent record of trying to run down a police officer w/a car she had stolen.

    Clearly, troubled people cannot be raped. But you’re right, Mom2Three. Because she has a previous record as a perpetrator of a violent crime, it’s obvious that she loses credibility as the alleged perpetrator of this… violent… cri… Fuck.

    Other articles have been offended that she’s been typecast as a “stripper”. Well, she is a stripper, a profession she choose. And yes, she’s also a mother.

    Wait — so strippers can be mothers too? That seriously messes with my tittybar fantasies.

  98. April 18, 2006 at 3:24 pm

    Because the alleged victim was also once a member of the military, I wish someone would come out and say that if you don’t believe her you clearly hate America.

    I’m still waiting.

  99. Q Grrl
    April 18, 2006 at 3:41 pm

    More broadly, it seems to me that Durham does not appreciate what Duke does for undergrads, or how property values in Durham are probably bolstered by having 6400 Duke undergrads.

    ***snort***

    Property values went up because Duke Univ. had to ***buy*** the houses undergrads were partying in because the undergrads couldn’t understand the concepts of “adult”, “responsible”, “neighbors”. If fact, I was personally told by both a Duke lacrosse player AND his father that if I didn’t like their partying, I should move. Duke made the decision to buy the houses from absentee landlords and re-sell to Duke employees. Now, what was once the trashed blocks directly around Duke East Campus is now family housing.

    … and they had to move the chancellor(?) next to the Lacrosse house on Markham Ave. Which is just a block and a half from 610 Buchanan. Lot of good *that* did.

    Don’t kid yourself that these “boys” deserve sympathy. They’ve done everything they could within their powers to fuck shit up and still stay below the radar. Obviously they need to improve their recruitment strategies and get smarter incoming first year players, no?

  100. Q Grrl
    April 18, 2006 at 3:48 pm

    And is taxi-taking common in Durham?

    For students at Duke? Or for Durham residents?

  101. Sean
    April 18, 2006 at 3:50 pm

    I used to live in Chapel Hill. Don’t care for Raleigh or Durham as cities ~ they’re your typical mid-sized southern cities with ignored, failing infrastructure & remnants of the segregated south.

    The issue of Duke enters the picture in that there are racial and socioeconomic divides between the residents of Durham and the typical Duke student. So regardless of the facts of the case, the case touches on the ever-present race issues in America and issues of class. This could’ve happened just as easily in Chapel Hill or Raleigh, but the two universities there are public and hence some of the socioeconomics of the issues is dialed back. The lack of firm response to the allegatios by Duke has exacerbated those issues, especially the racial ones.

    As an example of the state of the Triangle, I graduated from Chapel Hill High in 1986. At that time, the predominantly white CHHS sent about 1 in 125 on to the military while the majority went to college. By contrast, the mostly black Durham High sent about 1 in 20 or maybe even more to the military and very few students from there (white or black) went to college.

    But for all the talk of socioeconomics and race, this will hopefully be a trial about facts and evidence. The accused and the state will present their cases and a jury will decide. Unfortunately, a big part of a case hinges on who has the better lawyer…

  102. bmc90
    April 18, 2006 at 3:53 pm

    Defense strategy be darned, if I had a really good alibi I’d have been singing that tune long before my picture was all over CNN and I’d been indicted. I mean, I’d have been saying I was somewhere else so often and so fast the cops would have to duct tape my mouth.

  103. Rose
    April 18, 2006 at 4:06 pm

    I’ve read many posts here saying that the accuser is a “proven” liar. Also, the other stripper at the party is a “proven” liar. Okay, where’s the proof. You keep wailing about how these poor boys are having their lives ruined by unprovable allegations. Well, if you’re going to say that these two women are proven liars, provide something to back-up the statement. That she was arrested once is not proof that she’s a liar, it’s proof that she committed a crime once. Also, out of curiosity – if this same woman had said she was mugged at gunpoint, would you say that she must be lying because she had a conviction or is RAPE the only crime where a clean, pure, virginal victim with no priors is required – just asking?

  104. April 18, 2006 at 4:06 pm

    I used to live in Chapel Hill. Don’t care for Raleigh or Durham as cities ~ they’re your typical mid-sized southern cities with ignored, failing infrastructure & remnants of the segregated south.

    Sean, you’re lucky i’m in a good mood.

    i don’t think that Ann Atwater and CP Ellis could have gotten together to do the work they did in any other city in the US besides Durham.

  105. Rose
    April 18, 2006 at 4:32 pm

    One more note on this and then I think I’ve said enough for now. How come the name Tawana Brawley keeps coming up but not the Central Park jogger? Now we all know that something terrible happened to the Central Park jogger, but we also now know that it wasn’t at the hands of the young men who were convicted of the crime. They did many years in prison for a crime they didn’t commit. The man who really did that to her raped and murdered a woman the next month – he was free to do so after all, since they “caught” the guys. So here’s a case of young men’s lives ruined because of a false rape conviction – why no cries of the injustice of it all? Is it because she was a “good” victim, who had allegedly been raped by a “wilding” wolf pack of young black men? Is that the kind of case that makes you uncomfortable because what happened to her was REALLY bad and she was a nice, professional, upper-middle class woman? All this talk of “due process” is such BS really. Deep down, I honestly believe, based on the tone of your comments, that most of you don’t care one way or another if she was or wasn’t raped. What you seem to be saying is that women like her don’t have the right to come forward. If you sell your body to men (be it stripping or prostitution) you forgo the right to your own body and hey, you took your chances when you went into that line of work. She keeps being referred to as “the stripper”. She’s completely dehumanized to you, unlike the Central Park jogger, who probably bought to mind your sister or girlfriend or another kind of “nice” woman who didn’t deserve it.

    Here’s the known facts in the Duke case – the woman came to the party in good spirits and left disoriented. She left her cell phone, purse and $400 behind. Her body showed signs of vaginal and anal tearing. One of the guys at the party wrote an email about killing and skinning strippers the very next day (I can hear you now “But it was just a joke!!!” – yeah, I’m laughing real hard now…) People in the vicinity heard racial slurs being hauled at her. So in light of all of this, yes, I think she was raped, I certainly think something terrible happened to her, the pieces add up. Don’t worry, there will be a trial and they will get their due process, no one is suggesting that we hang them without a trial…but are there better people out there you can be defending so passionately. Think about it. Just think about it.

  106. Debbie
    April 18, 2006 at 4:53 pm

    There are many more known facts than what you list Rose. Why is it that your “facts” only support one side? Are you biased for some reason? I know I have had sex in my past that a Dr would think could be caused from forcible sex, i dont find a Dr’s words of “consistent with” to prove anything. Im sure this female likes sex like the rest of us, who knows what happened before the party or even after.

    Could the reason for her being “out of it”, be because she took drugs to “loosen” up for her strip performance. GHB a common drug amongst strippers has the effect of making you seen drunk and incoherent.

    In addition, if calling someone a racial slur or sending a disgusting email is enough evidence for you, what does it tell you that this girl, stole one of her stripping clients cars, then tried to run over a police officer. What does tell you about the type of girl she is? Anything?

    There is alot to come out in trial, what will say if they boys are proven innocent, join the chorus here and say, the rich jocks bea the system.

    Those charged have their faces plastered all over the place and she is still unknown. Even if found innocent, many will never consider these boys anyting but rapists. What should be the punishment if she lied? IMO, it should be equal to the punishment that is given to an actual rapist. For her crime would be just as disgusting.

  107. April 18, 2006 at 4:57 pm

    I’m gonna say it one last time: These are not “boys.” They are legal adults. They are men.

  108. dag
    April 18, 2006 at 5:15 pm

    There is a simple way to end the racial hysteria surrounding the Duke Lacrosse team. Simply tell people it was El Duke,
    not Duke players that were accused the rape of a white woman, and the same civil rights leaders who are lynching the Duke Players would lynch the racist DA…..

    I can see it now, “racist DA perpetuates black rape myth.” And of course the nails were planted by a racist cop, “If the nails don’t clip you must acquit.”

    Dag

  109. Debbie
    April 18, 2006 at 5:19 pm

    Another new fact on Dan Abrams, there is video of one of the arrested at an ATM during the time of the alleged rape.

    Dan is certainly very skeptical of the accuser, rightfully so.

  110. Debbie
    April 18, 2006 at 5:22 pm

    DA isn’t racist, but certainly a political opportunist. I heard earlier that he is up for election in a few weeks and his opponent is black.

  111. evil_fizz
    April 18, 2006 at 5:33 pm

    Yeah, it couldn’t possibly be that the DA has good evidence of a crime and is prosecuting accordingly…

  112. Josh
    April 18, 2006 at 5:59 pm

    I heard earlier that he is up for election in a few weeks and his opponent is black.

    Then if the good people of Durham feel he is unfairly railroading these fine upstanding young gentlemen, they can vote him out of office.

  113. cfw
    April 18, 2006 at 6:41 pm

    Last thoughts on terms, which are keys to ideas:

    “It’s called a ‘rape kit’ because it’s a kit that’s used in collecting medical evidence during an exam when someone has reported being raped. I don’t see what’s so prejudicial about that, any more than calling something a ‘theft deterrent’ or ‘fraud prevention’ or what have you.”

    Picture youself as a prosecutor presenting a rape case to a jury. Would you rather talk about a “rape kit” or an “alleged rape kit” or a “checklist or protocol for medical examination?” The prosecution team (which includes the “victim outreach” specialists and the “rape trauma nurse”) call the checklist of tests a rape kit for a reason, yes?

    )Equally aggravating to me is the False Claims Act – should be the Alleged False Claims Act. Until some jury finds the facts, there is no false claim, yes?)

    “Moreover, the examining medical team has not said ‘she was raped,’ they have said that she has injuries inconsistent with consensual sex or that she has injuries consistent with forced penetration.”

    How is “consistent with forced sex” an expert opinion? (I think you are fudging or putting words in mouths about “inconsistent with consensual sex “- did not see that in the press reports.)

    Are jury members idiots? If all the supposed “expert” can say is this is consistent with that, and we are not talking about astronomy or molecular biology, why call that expert testimony? It may improperly bolster the prosecution case. It is argument, or foreshadowing of the prosecution closing, not proper expert opinion testimony. Again, this is tipping the scales of justice in favor of the prosecution – should be resisted, for black or white defendants.

    “That kind of statement is perfectly admissible, which is why it’s put that way to begin with.”

    In my view, not admissible in serious, competently-litigated cases that are neutrally judged, at least in CA.

    Civil standard at least in CA calls for more certainty – reasonable medical certainty. Otherwise, it is junk science or invading the province of the jury. It is like saying this person’s heart attack is “consistent with” taking of Vioxx – what neutral judge would allow that in a well-litigated case?

  114. Sophist
    April 18, 2006 at 6:52 pm

    Those charged have their faces plastered all over the place and she is still unknown. Even if found innocent, many will never consider these boys anyting but rapists. What should be the punishment if she lied? IMO, it should be equal to the punishment that is given to an actual rapist. For her crime would be just as disgusting.

    You know, the possibilites that either (a) they are found guilty or (b) she lied are not jointly exhaustive.

  115. Debbie
    April 18, 2006 at 6:59 pm

    “jointly exhaustive.”

    nothing on wikpedia or anywhere else, please explain?

  116. April 18, 2006 at 7:01 pm

    More broadly, it seems to me that Durham does not appreciate…how property values in Durham are probably bolstered by having 6400 Duke undergrads.

    Now that’s a whole lot of bullshit. Since when does having a bunch of temporary renters increase property values – no matter where you are? The influx of students can increase demand, but logically this would be offset by the decrease in revenue over the summer and the lower standard of care temporary renters – students especially – often have for their homes.

    The apartments closest to my town’s university do charge higher rents compared to similar apartment complexes elsewhere in town, but (and I can attest to this since I grew up in one) the houses near the university are worth less.

    Even if the student income is actualy higher than that of many residents, and even if rents are higher closer to the college/university, it doesn’t follow that housing prices overall are always increased by having a university in your town.

  117. evil_fizz
    April 18, 2006 at 7:04 pm

    “jointly exhaustive.”

    nothing on wikpedia or anywhere else, please explain?

    Their convictions and her lying are not the only possibilities. It’s not an either/or proposition. Jointly, they do not exhaust the possibilities.

  118. April 18, 2006 at 7:06 pm

    For those who accuse and convict before evidence is in, well, what exactly is the difference between that mindset and the one of your average Republican voter who supports the prison camps? No, really, what IS the difference?

    Was anyone convicted? Must have missed the trial. How long’s the sentence? Seriously, though, has anyone advocated that any of the players be sent to prison without a trial? I haven’t seen anyone. The prison camps, on the other hand, are camps where some people are being detained without the benefit of a trial. I don’t know. I sort of think that’s a big difference. I’m just saying.

    I’m also wondering if all those claiming a need to apologize to the players if they are acquitted held those who discussed publicly about their belief in the guilt of OJ and Michael Jackson to the same standard. What about those who still think the Ramseys are guilty? Hell, they’ve never even been charged. Must we apologize to them as well? And, yes, I think the Ramseys are guilty. Sue me. I have no intention of apologizing to them.

  119. Debbie
    April 18, 2006 at 7:11 pm

    evil

    I was hoping for something more than what you want the definiton to be. Are you american, as I have never heard of those words to describe what you are describing and neither has the internet.

  120. April 18, 2006 at 7:22 pm
  121. Debbie
    April 18, 2006 at 7:24 pm

    Lauren

    eat shit

  122. Debbie
    April 18, 2006 at 7:26 pm

    5.3% relevancy

    May be good for you, not me.

  123. April 18, 2006 at 7:29 pm

    Help yourself to a spoonful while the article lays out the definition for you.

  124. Debbie
    April 18, 2006 at 7:31 pm

    Sure it does

    lol

    all 5.3% of it

  125. evil_fizz
    April 18, 2006 at 7:35 pm

    Debbie, I don’t want the definition to be anything. The definition is, in fact, what I provided.

    And they do have google where you live, right? Because that wikipedia article is the first hit if you search for “jointly exhaustive.” Whee! Isn’t the internet grand?

  126. April 18, 2006 at 7:36 pm

    Well, if you can’t figure it out from the article you couldn’t find in wikipedia, I feel sorry for you.

    And lay off of the obsessive page refresh to see if people have responded to your brilliant explications of internet research. It’s pathetic. At least I have an excuse.

    I was hoping for something more than what you want the definiton to be. Are you american, as I have never heard of those words to describe what you are describing and neither has the internet.

    Clearly Americans don’t use language such as this because I am an American, can’t deduce a definition from the context of a sentence, AND I’ve never heard of it before.

    nothing on wikpedia or anywhere else, please explain?

    Two of us did. You moving goalposts now? Or can you still not find this crazy foreign phrase on the internets?

  127. Raging Moderate
    April 18, 2006 at 7:41 pm

    evil_fizz:

    The mere fact that people do crazy things is in no way indicative of what happened here.

    Amen. So the mere fact that some men rape is also in no way indicative of what happened here, right?

    Lauren:

    Clearly, troubled people cannot be raped.

    Of course not. But they’re less likely to be believed.

    According to you, committing a violent crime means you’re troubled. Would you also describe the accused who was convicted of assault as “a troubled man”?

    Because she has a previous record as a perpetrator of a violent crime, it’s obvious that she loses credibility

    Yes it is obvious. Same as how the accused loses credibility due to his previous violent crime (and rightfully so).

  128. Debbie
    April 18, 2006 at 7:51 pm

    are you educated

    Do you know what 5.3% relevancy means, duh, of course you don’t.

    So two idiots make up something up and that makes it fact?

    you know what is a sure sign that someone lost a debate, they play the semantics or the spelling or the grammar game

  129. Raging Moderate
    April 18, 2006 at 7:54 pm

    What about those who still think the Ramseys are guilty?

    You can think it, but ya better not write a book about it.

    The authors of a book that accused John and Patsy Ramsey of killing their daughter JonBenet have settled an $80 million libel suit by the couple.

  130. April 18, 2006 at 7:54 pm

    According to you, committing a violent crime means you’re troubled.

    No, I managed to find a bio on this woman and it sounds like she’s had a hard life.

    …Yes it is obvious. Same as how the accused loses credibility due to his previous violent crime (and rightfully so).

    And yet the two are not parallel. One consists of a woman who was a perpetrator of a crime and later an alleged victim of a violent crime. The accused man was convicted of a violent crime and is now accused of a violent crime very close in nature to his previous crime. There is a difference.

  131. April 18, 2006 at 7:55 pm

    you know what is a sure sign that someone lost a debate, they play the semantics or the spelling or the grammar game

    Or we’re tired of you.

    By the way, I would love to edit your comments for grammar. Are you educated?

  132. Raging Moderate
    April 18, 2006 at 7:56 pm

    you know what is a sure sign that someone lost a debate, they play the semantics or the spelling or the grammar game

    Amen, sister!

  133. April 18, 2006 at 7:57 pm

    Aww, Lauren, don’t kick Debbie out. She lightens the mood considerably.

  134. April 18, 2006 at 7:59 pm

    are you educated

    Do you know what 5.3% relevancy means, duh, of course you don’t.

    The better question is, do you know how to properly use punctuation?

  135. evil_fizz
    April 18, 2006 at 8:00 pm

    Yes, Debbie, Lauren and I have formed this enormous conspiracy in which we’ve hoodwinked Google and Wikipedia! That’s how educated we are. We have gained control over teh internets! Muhahahaha!

    palm ->forehead

  136. April 18, 2006 at 8:00 pm

    you know what is a sure sign that someone lost a debate, they play the semantics or the spelling or the grammar game

    Or it means that your spelling and grammar are so terrible that we’re having a hard time ignoring it. And blogs aren’t exactly hubs of proper English, so that says a lot.

  137. April 18, 2006 at 8:05 pm

    That and there’s usually a complete degeneration in the quality of or interest in comments past #100.

  138. Josh
    April 18, 2006 at 8:07 pm

    you know what is a sure sign that someone lost a debate, they play the semantics or the spelling or the grammar game

    Indeed. Your insistence on denying the well-settled meaning of the phrase “jointly exhaustive” even when it is patiently (at first) explained to you and a link is provided to help your understanding is a sure sign you’ve lost the debate.

  139. Raging Moderate
    April 18, 2006 at 8:13 pm

    One consists of a woman who was a perpetrator of a crime and later an alleged victim of a violent crime. The accused man was convicted of a violent crime and is now accused of a violent crime very close in nature to his previous crime. There is a difference.

    Not to me. They both committed violent crimes. They both have credibility issues. I wouldn’t trust either one of them. Impartial observers might agree with me.

    Someone who was almost run over by a woman in a stolen car might think that the woman’s crime was worse than the man’s, and then think she is less credible than he is. I would disagree with that, too.

  140. April 18, 2006 at 8:15 pm

    Well, I’m not going to write a book about the Ramseys, so I’m safe.

  141. April 18, 2006 at 8:52 pm

    I’m trying to be open minded but my brother went to a private catholic high school in Baltimore and played lacrosse- I choose public school in the center of the state and many of my friends played lacrosse- totally different people. My cousin was at another private school in Maryland where in high school one of the guys taped himself having sex with a girl and showed some members of his team, it did end up in all the newspapers and their season got cancelled but it was a ” big baltimore scandal” in that lacrosse infested place. I have other experiences that bear me out regarding lacrosse players in general and those that come from private schools specifically, and I am prejudice in this I admit but, I think that someone or several someone’s at that party hurt that girl. Duke is also facing a bit of a connundrum an outing of sorts. It’s hateful to say we will have to see how this plays out but we have no choice as no one really knows what these lawyers have.

  142. Sophist
    April 19, 2006 at 12:05 am

    Do you know what 5.3% relevancy means…

    Yes, it means that the article which contains the definition of “jointly exhaustive” is largely about other subjects. That doesn’t make the information it contains any less true.

  143. Josh
    April 19, 2006 at 1:38 am

    Cooper,

    Have you seen this article?

    They both committed violent crimes. They both have credibility issues.

    Ture, but the accused has been convicted of a crime of a similar nature to the crime he is accused of, whereas the accuser has not been convicted of a crime involving deceit, which is the wrongdoing that some are arguing she is engaged in here. Thus, the credibility issue may be a wash on both sides, but the accuser’s past behavior additionally suggests that he may be more likely than the average person to commit violent assaults.

    I think evidence of both crimes will probably be excluded since you’re generally not permitted to use evidence of one crime committed by the defendant to support the inference that s/he committed a similar crime, and generally evidence of only crimes that involve deception is admitted for purposes of impeaching credibility. But there are some exceptions to these rules that I’ve mostly forgotten so I could be completely wrong.

  144. Nobody
    April 19, 2006 at 3:47 am

    Thanks to Debbie and Lauren for the great Jointly Exhaustive debate. If Debbie is a put-on, whoever wrote those posts rocks. “Jointly Exhaustive,” returns 1960 references on Google Books. So, in addition to the two people here who explained the term to her, she can turn to a great number of books for more help with it. Although, I do spot a few known foreigners in the list. . . Too funny.

    Relevant to the post, it’s common for private party strippers to perform sex acts on themselves, including penetration with foreign objects. Injuries consistent with rape can be an occupational hazard. That this is true obviously cannot be taken to mean anything in this specific case. But it can explain what would otherwise be inexplicable, absent guilt on the part of the accused.

  145. April 19, 2006 at 8:45 am

    DA isn’t racist, but certainly a political opportunist. I heard earlier that he is up for election in a few weeks and his opponent is black.

    Durham’s primary election is May 2. There are 3 candidates seeking the Democratic nomination, none seeking the Republican, so the primary election is the de facto general election.

    In addition to Mike Nifong, the other candidates are Freda Black (who is a white woman and former assistant DA) and Keith Bishop (who is a black man and practicing attorney).

    Occurring when it did in the campaign process, there is no way to avoid politicizing this case. It will probably be the only thing on voter’s minds when it comes to figuring out who we want to be our next DA.

    AFAIC, Nifong has done as good a job as could be expected in depoliticizing the prosecution of this case, and both he and the political and spiritual leadership of Durham should receive some praise for the degree of calm which the city has in fact kept over the past month, as charges and counter charges fly hither and yon across the landscape.

    If we could just keep the cable tv ratings whores away, we could resolve this case quite well on our own.

  146. Lauren
    April 19, 2006 at 9:22 am

    If we could just keep the cable tv ratings whores away, we could resolve this case quite well on our own.

    Word.

    I fucking resent that this is national news at all. The media whores are the ones that bring a single case to a national level to be scrutinized and overanalyzed, meantime no national news source discusses the seriousness of “the rape problem” that women and men have been dealing with for, oh, forever.

    In the meantime the media whores declare all things equal, declare rape shield laws no longer necessary since women are no longer sufficiently ashamed of sex to be ruined by rape, and do everything they can to encourage leaks of information, from the accuser’s identity to the defense’s strategy (I’ll fill you in, people — it’s a classic category called “nuts and sluts” and you’ll see it pretty much every time a woman steps into the courtroom with a grievance) to reporting on what the DA had for lunch and what it looked like later when he shit it out. BREAKING NEWS: NIFONG HAD CORN FOR DINNER!

    The banality of their reports makes me want to pound a nail into both my fucking eyelids. We’re talking about rape, you fucking media whores, not your career or your Aquanetted dumbass hairdo. Someone in this story, be it the accused or the alleged, was hurt, will be hurt, and is being hurt by blood-sucking media vultures making an issue of the wrong fucking things.

    For chrissakes, media whores, use this story as a national opportunity to talk about rape — about the stigma, the trauma, the post-trauma affects and effects, about what we can do, about what we can do for others. Instead we’re freaking out over the minorest fucking details on one case that has seen the inside of a courtroom for abot an hour. We don’t know dick about dick here, but the media claims it does, so let’s listen! The godbox knows all!

    Shame on the media whores and shame on us for fucking eating it up like it’s the first, the best, spoonful of this steaming shit we’ve ever eaten. Yum.

  147. April 19, 2006 at 9:35 am

    The DA has fucked up this case big time. The two defendants’ alibis have been confirmed according to ABC

    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/LegalCenter/story?id=1858806&page=1

    I would think a DA would have checked the possibilities of alibis before indicting. Also, identifications while under the influence tend to be faulty; IDs aren’t that good even when the witness is lucid.

    They cannot go back now and choose two others because any new IDs would be laughed out of court.

    If she truly was raped, she is not going to get her justice, and that just hurts.

  148. April 19, 2006 at 9:37 am

    Correction: it is only Seligman’s alibi confirmed, although the cab driver mentioned two guys in the cab. I assumed the other one was the other defendant.

  149. cfw
    April 19, 2006 at 10:12 am

    “Since when does having a bunch of temporary renters increase property values – no matter where you are?”

    Duke undergrads bring in say $40,000 each times 6400 per year. $256 million. Duke-area property values have gone up how much in the last 10 years? If the $256 million per year went to say, San Diego, would that have a negative effect on incomes and property values in Durham?

    The Durham city council, police and DA’s office assume they have Duke’s undergrads locked in. Duke’s neighbors make the same assumption. Duke’s management can and should disabuse them of that notion. Perhaps Duke should look into turning some of the housing into an NCCU-type low-tuition college, or a correctional facilty. That might bring Durham to appreciate what it has.

    Durham needs to remember it competes with NYC, Boston, Palo Alto, Princeton, etc. Southern hospitality needs to be shown. It is perceived as not friendly to Duke – with some justification. That can and should change, or Duke can and should reposition geographically. Duke has been disliked in the Durham area for the last 30 years – what makes anyone think that will change in the next 30 years?

    “The influx of students can increase demand, but logically this would be offset by the decrease in revenue over the summer and the lower standard of care temporary renters – students especially – often have for their homes.”

    I agree that students are not great – they are noisy, nuisances. But economically, they “float the boat” for Durham. If Durham cannot see the forest for the trees, time for Duke to find some new real estate elsewhere.

    “The apartments closest to my town’s university do charge higher rents compared to similar apartment complexes elsewhere in town, but (and I can attest to this since I grew up in one) the houses near the university are worth less.”

    What would houses in Durham be worth if Duke was elsewhere? I suspect at least 40% less than they are worth now. This does not mean that Durham needs to ignore drinking and pissing on lawns. But it goes overboard in trashing Duke and Duke students whenever it gets a chance, as if the undergrads had no choice about what college to attend, and the Duke management had no choice about what real estae to develop.

    “Even if the student income is actualy higher than that of many residents, and even if rents are higher closer to the college/university, it doesn’t follow that housing prices overall are always increased by having a university in your town.”

    I know of no town like Durham (except maybe Durham) which would not be thrilled to have Duke in its area. What would replace Duke at Durham – a set of confinement facilities? Tobacco business has long since departed.

  150. DPB
    April 19, 2006 at 10:14 am

    In case anyone cares… that “gay-bashing” incident involving one of the accused went a little differently than you guys are explaining.

    Firstly, the man wasn’t gay.

    Secondly, all 4 people involved were charged (including the person who was being taunted) and faced similar sentences

    Thirdly, they were calling the man gay, he got pissed off and got into a scuffle with one of them and the two-friends helped out.

    So gay bashing?

    Hardly… just 4 people who got stupid. Happens every night at practically every club.

  151. Daniel@NYU
    April 19, 2006 at 10:45 am

    In racially motivated sex-crime cases, there’s been a long history of hysteria, witch-hunts, and wrongful convictions. Usually, the defendants are poor and black, and it’s widely acknowledged as a great injustice.

    I’d say a politically neutral, universally acceptable lesson that you can draw from this is that it’s wrong to rush to conclusions that are inconsistent with facts, and that you can’t convict a person for rape because you despise whatever you think they represent.

    It may be that the defense lawyers and their clients are trying the case in the press because they’re concerned about reputation, and Nifong is keeping his mouth shut not to tip his hand. However, we’ve got a guy up for re-election. and he’s got a case that’s causing hysteria in the media and in the community. More than half of the people who vote for the DA are black, and one of his opponents is black. What you’ve got is a mini-seminar on the kinds of incentives that can be put on a prosecutor to try to send innocent people to jail.

    Let’s review the facts. There are 46 guys and two women. One stripper says she was raped, the other doesn’t know whether that’s true or not. The 46 guys all say nobody had sex with her, and they don’t find DNA.

    She goes into the hospital with symptoms consistent with an assault, but the team produces time-stamped photos that show that she was injured when she arrived at the party. The statements of the men, the photos, and the statements of the security guard who found her, all suggest she was impaired and under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

    Intoxication isn’t a defense against rape, but when you can prove that the victim was so drunk she could barely stand, and your indictment is entirely premised on that identification, that intoxication substantially damages the credibility of the eyewitness testimony. Surely you are familiar with the substantial criticism of the reliability of eyewitness identifications, particularly when the witness is of a different race than the person identified.

    Even if you allow that she was raped at that party, you probably have to acquit these two guys entirely on the basis that, in the absence of corroboration, her identification of her assailants is insufficient to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

    You’ve got to remember, these guys don’t have to prove what they didn’t do. Nifong has to prove, beyond any reasonable doubt that they did it. Unless he’s holding something very damning we don’t know about, I don’t think that’s possible, and the defense lawyers are correct when they say that he should not have brought this case.

  152. Q Grrl
    April 19, 2006 at 10:47 am

    CFW: do you care to explain Walltown to me then? You know, my neighborhood, seven blocks from the alleged crime scene? The one three blocks from Duke? … with the drive-by’s, the crack sales, and the condemned houses.

    If by “property values near Duke have gone up” you mean the exact one block perimeter around Duke’s East Campus, then even that is shaky. Values have gone up precisely because Duke bought out the houses that the students were renting, making it impossible for students to rent these houses ever again, and has and is reselling these properties to Duke employees. In fact, 610 Buchanan St., where the alleged crime took place, was just bought by Duke in February of this year. However, the majority of properties within a three-four block radius of Duke are low income: Walltown, Birch Ave., the section 8 housing behind the VA, etc.

    Further, as a Duke employee of 12 years and a resident of Trinity Park/Trinity Heights/Walltown for the last 16 years, I know that your claim that Durham hates Duke is completely without merit and really just amounts to you pulling shit outta your ass.

    Nice try though. Nice attempt to make Durham residents look like the criminals and amoral ones in this situation.

  153. CW
    April 19, 2006 at 11:14 am

    Firstly, the man wasn’t gay

    It was my understanding that he was just called “gay”.

    She goes into the hospital with symptoms consistent with an assault, but the team produces time-stamped photos that show that she was injured when she arrived at the party.

    Has that been confirmed? Although the defense initially claimed they would show as much, the reports and decriptions of the pictures have produced either no mention of her being bruised when she arrived or that, in fact, she wasn’t until later (remember, a new claim is that she fell off the stoop). Further, a rape kit examines more than just an assault.

    The statements of the men, the photos, and the statements of the security guard who found her, all suggest she was impaired and under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

    I believe the guard also said, as well as the second stripper, she didn’t smell of alcohol. If in fact she was infected with some intoxicating substance, the issue would be how it got there (was she slipped something?) and if it is even relevant.

  154. Daniel@NYU
    April 19, 2006 at 11:20 am

    Also, on the Ryan McFayden issue, this guy has not been identified as an assailant, and he’s been dragged through the press because he sent an imprudent e-mail to a friend who turned it over to the cops.

    I don’t condone what he said, but I believe people have a right to say things I don’t condone. I’ve said some things I wish I could take back when I was drunk. I’ve sent some e-mails that I wish I hadn’t sent. Hell, in college, I published things in the newspaper that I kind of regret now.

    The kid was drunk, he was angry because he kicked into an $800 pool to hire two strippers for two hours, and they only danced for five minutes. He was drunk, he expressed himself in a way that he probably wouldn’t have wanted to share with the world.

    Then, local authorities who can’t yet prosecute a rape and are under intense pressure to do something get hold of the e-mail, so they crucify this poor kid. I don’t think anybody really thinks McFayden is a serial-killer in training. I don’t think he’s guilty of anything more than reading too much Bret Easton Ellis and drinking too much, and I don’t think his e-mail gave the police any probable cause to search his dorm room.

    I think the guy was tremendously punished for nothing, and I’m disgusted with the conduct of the Durham authorities and with Duke University for suspending him over that.

  155. April 19, 2006 at 11:26 am

    I just got back from visiting relatives in Garden City, NY, where Finnerty is from. He went to Chaminade with my cousin. The whole town is in shock over his arrest. A father of one of the other lacrosse players was interviewed, and said, “I know these kids..this can’t be true.” Dude, you don’t know those kids. You only know the faces they show to parents and anyone else who can exercise power over them. When those “kids” hang out together, or are around people with less power than them, they show other faces entirely. That’s true of most young people, not just the ones who commit crimes.

    I realize he’s innocent till proven guilty, but…this is a very important example of how rapists aren’t these grungy perverts hiding in dark alleys. They are your neighbor, your classmate, the “nice boys” who delivered your paper as teenagers.

  156. April 19, 2006 at 11:34 am

    Duke undergrads bring in say $40,000 each times 6400 per year. $256 million. Duke-area property values have gone up how much in the last 10 years? If the $256 million per year went to say, San Diego, would that have a negative effect on incomes and property values in Durham?

    Duke undergrads pay, more or less, $40k/year for the privelege of attending Duke. How much of that money do you think actually stays in Durham?

    You’re aware, i take it, that unlike every other Univeristy in the Triangle, Duke charges local merchants an 18% commission on sales to students using their DukeCard, in addition to startup costs of about $2000 to participate in the program? The result of this is that Duke students tend to spend their money on campus, and not in Durham. And we’re not talking about their tuition bucks, which basically go to Duke.

    From my experience, as a 13 year resident of the Duke Park neighborhood (located about 2 miles east of east campus, and thus not one of the 11 partner neighborhoods with Duke), property values are up about 250% since i’ve been here. (My $120k house purchased in 1993 would currently sell for about $300k. i wish i still owned it.)

    However, we’ve got a guy up for re-election. and he’s got a case that’s causing hysteria in the media and in the community.

    Daniel, there is no hysteria in the community. We’re pretty much rational people down here who wish that Joe Scarborough & Nancy Grace would just leave us the fuck alone and let us try this case in the courts. I think regardless of the outcome, Durham will be able to handle it.

    I know of no town like Durham (except maybe Durham) which would not be thrilled to have Duke in its area. What would replace Duke at Durham – a set of confinement facilities? Tobacco business has long since departed.

    You might try asking the townsfolk at Brodhead’s last gig in New Haven how they feel about their local University.

    Duke is neither the 900 pound gorilla in the room of Durham, nor the Straw That Stirs the Drink. It provides a number of well-paying jobs for a certain subset of the Durham population, and a larger number of less well-paying jobs for a different subset of the population. I rather suspect that Durham would do OK in the long term were Duke to find another location upon which to construct a couple of million square feet of neo-gothic classroom and dormitory space using locally quarried stone and imported masons, assuming they could do so for less than, oh, say 60 billion dollars. And that doesn’t include the Washington Duke Inn or the golf course, or the thousands of acres of Duke Forest.

    The bottom line is that Duke and Durham are pretty historically intertwined, and the only way to work through this is together. Statements about Duke/Durham relations that reveal more ignorance on the part of the utterer than shed light on how to resolve our difficulties are best ignored than acted upon.

  157. April 19, 2006 at 11:38 am

    Then, local authorities who can’t yet prosecute a rape and are under intense pressure to do something get hold of the e-mail, so they crucify this poor kid. I don’t think anybody really thinks McFayden is a serial-killer in training. I don’t think he’s guilty of anything more than reading too much Bret Easton Ellis and drinking too much, and I don’t think his e-mail gave the police any probable cause to search his dorm room.

    I think the guy was tremendously punished for nothing, and I’m disgusted with the conduct of the Durham authorities and with Duke University for suspending him over that.

    Try sending an email that discusses, in graphic detail, killing and skinning someone, and then jacking off in your company supplied uniform, and see how long you keep your job.

    Or better yet, try posting that kind of fantasy on your facebook page, and see how long it is before the dean of students calls you in for a chat.

    McFadyen is supposed to be the best and the brightes, and if he’s too stupid (or too drunk) to know better than using the Duke email system to send that letter out, he doesn’t deserve to represent the University.

  158. zuzu
    April 19, 2006 at 11:39 am

    The kid was drunk, he was angry because he kicked into an $800 pool to hire two strippers for two hours, and they only danced for five minutes. He was drunk, he expressed himself in a way that he probably wouldn’t have wanted to share with the world.

    And he just happened to express himself in a way and on a topic relevant to a crime that had been reported at a party he had just attended.

    So, poor little guy was dragged through the mud for nothing? Not hardly.

  159. Daniel@NYU
    April 19, 2006 at 12:22 pm

    And he just happened to express himself in a way and on a topic relevant to a crime that had been reported at a party he had just attended.

    So, poor little guy was dragged through the mud for nothing? Not hardly.

    This link leads to the text of the e-mail:

    http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2006/04/05/evidence/index.html

    How you interpret that depends entirely on what happened there. There are three possibilities.

    1.) A rape occurred, and this guy knew about it. If that’s the case, you’re probably right. In this context, one might read “tonight’s show” as referring to the rape, and you’d have to read the e-mail as him thinking the rape was funny.

    2.) The rape happened, but he didn’t know about it. This is certainly possible. The second stripper was only aware of the rape because the alleged victim told her about it afterwards. In this case, McFayden is angry because he thinks they paid strippers for two hours and they only performed for five minutes.

    3.) No rape happened. He’s mad because they paid $800 for strippers who only performed for five minutes.

    If it’s 2 or 3, it’s still disturbing, but looking at it from the lens of having been at one point in the relatively recent past, a 20 year-old undergraduate boy, I understand that stuff like this exists in a context. Some of this stuff could be some kind of inside joke that’s extremely disturbing out of context. But the fact that it’s wrong and disturbing is what makes it funny, particularly when you’re a 20 year-old college boy.

    Personally, I think it’s kind of scary that we have the police coming into somebody’s home and ransacking the place because he made jokes to his friends that were politically unacceptable.

    I can’t think of any conceivable piece of relevant evidence that they might possibly have believed they’d recover from searching this kid’s room. I think they made a big deal out of taking this kid down, because they were under political pressure to do something, and that’s exactly the kind of pressure the Fourth Amendment should protect us against.

    If you oppose, for example, state overreach in terror investigations, and the violation of the rights of American Muslims, or the profiling and railroading of indigent black criminal defendants, you can’t applaud the same state persecution and excess against a bunch of white meatheads. Rights have to protect everyone who might find themselves in a situation where they are politically disfavored.

  160. raging red
    April 19, 2006 at 12:36 pm

    Personally, I think it’s kind of scary that we have the police coming into somebody’s home and ransacking the place because he made jokes to his friends that were politically unacceptable.

    They didn’t search his room because he made “politically unacceptable” jokes. (BTW, that’s quite an understatement.) They searched his room because a woman made an accusation that she was gang raped at a party that he attended, immediately after which he wrote a disturbing and sexual email that made reference to the woman.

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  162. April 19, 2006 at 1:04 pm

    daniel, you are either incredibly naive or incredibly dense.

    the police requested a search warrant for emails sent or recieved by members of the Duke lacrosse team before and after the 3/19 party. As they had reason to believe a crime had been committed, the warrant was granted.

    they got a copy of the McFadyen email, which, quoting from memory discusses “killing” and “skinning” “bitches” and “cumming in my Duke issue spandex.”

    Duke was remiss in not acting independently in the nearly 10 days in which they were aware of this email before it became public.

    If the police obtained a search warrant based on this email, it’s because a judge decided that the text of the email warranted it. This is the way our criminal justice system is supposed to work.

    Equal justice under the law means that rich young white student athletes at elite private universities are subject to the same laws as are the rest of us. You don’t get to complain about it when the law ensnares somebody who happens to resemble you by comparing it to the violation of the rights of American Muslims, or even of thousands of Americans who every day are guilty of nothing more than Driving while Black. The police have in fact followed correct procedures in this case, all of your whining aside.

  163. Daniel@NYU
    April 19, 2006 at 1:25 pm

    daniel, you are either incredibly naive or incredibly dense.

    the police requested a search warrant for emails sent or recieved by members of the Duke lacrosse team before and after the 3/19 party. As they had reason to believe a crime had been committed, the warrant was granted.

    If the police obtained a search warrant based on this email, it’s because a judge decided that the text of the email warranted it. This is the way our criminal justice system is supposed to work.

    I must be incredibly naive or incredibly dense, because I don’t understand how that e-mail makes it more likely that McFayden is one of the assailants than any of the other lacrosse players, or made it likely at all that there was any relevant evidence in his room.

    If you read the search warrant, the police have made no serious argument that they have probable cause to believe that there’s anything in that room.

    I don’t see anything intrinsic to the nature of this crime that gives any probable cause that there is any evidence in McFayden’s computer, which was seized. The privacy implications of a forensic search of a computer, by the way, are quite significant.

    This guy was subjected to a substantial invasion of his home and his privacy because officials felt that it was politically unfavorable of them to not respond to this e-mail.

    And I certainly don’t think Duke, or any university or service provider should be combing through people’s e-mail and “acting independently” with response to it. I’m pretty disturbed by the “confidential informant” who released this e-mail to the police.

    It may have been a friend of McFayden’s who was a recipient, but if it was someone affiliated with the school who intercepted the communication, that’s a real problem for me.

  164. Ahlana
    April 19, 2006 at 1:47 pm

    Wait.
    If they only danced for 5 minutes, and they have photos with time stamps of them dancing at midnight, how is being in a cab at 12:25am an alibi? He couldn’t have been there for like 20 minutes and then got in his cab? 0.o

    And to jump back to #114
    If “rape kits” are so damning and predisposed toward false positives as you claim, then why are conviction rates for people brought to trial so low? Odds of a rape case brought to trial ending in a conviction 16%. The rate at which rape falsely claimed: 2% (the same as other crimes like theft and arson)

    It bothers me so much that people are so skeptical about this woman’s credibility. Sure, I can understand questioning if she ID’s the right person or whathaveyou, but what motivation is there to outright lie about this? As seen in the Kobe Bryant case not too long ago, bringing charges against an athlete is anything but a walk in the park. It’s not much fun to be blamed for the ending of a sport season, either. In fact, at MSU this was reason enough for someone to /not/ come forward and report a rape… she didn’t want to be blamed for destroying the hockey team’s season. If this woman had been mugged (as someone mentioned earlier) it wouldn’t have made national news, and no one would be questioning if she gave herself bruises.

    I’m writing my thesis on sexual violence in collegiate athletics, and nothing about this case or this woman or this team is new or unique. This shit happens all the time, at most large universities, and is more noticable in sports like hockey, lacrosse, football, and basketball… if your sport is prestigious or excessively violent then the odds of having a mentality that supports this type of behavior (not just the rape, but lude behavior, racism, sexism, PI, etc) goes up markedly.

  165. bmc90
    April 19, 2006 at 1:47 pm

    Daniel, don’t get this confused wth the Commander in Thief’s WARRANTLESS search program, where the goverment can search anyone’s home without convincing a judge of anything. At least we have the opportunity to comment on this situation becaue it is being done in the open. If you have criticisms of the process, then you should REALLY oppose any search and seizure without a warrant. So are you willing to admit that you think the President broke the law and subverted the 4th Amendment, or do you have a nice excuse for that white priviliged boy as well?

  166. bmc90
    April 19, 2006 at 2:05 pm

    Oh and Daniel, as for the e-mail, no one made the kid sit down and write it. Plus just like writing a letter, you can’t make the recipient keep it private. There is just no privilige that covers that legally, though socially of course we would condemn somenoe who circulates private letters. The police had every right to check all attendees e-mail and see if there was evidence of a plan made in advance to commit a crime, or a conspiracy to hush it up after. If you were robbed by someone at a party of a substantial amount of cash, but you were not sure who, wouldn’t you want the cops the checking the attendees e-mail to see if per chance someone bragged about it, asked someone to hide it, or maybe targeted you in advance with the help of some other attendees? Doesn’t seem so far fetched when the person searched admits they were there, does it?

    Also, think about this. Under the circumstances, could any recipient afford not to take the threat in the e-mail literally? What if you sat on this, and the next week you heard about some stripper getting killed and dumped somewhere? OOOPS. Would you let your sister anywhere near the guy who sent this love note? Thought not.

  167. April 19, 2006 at 2:15 pm

    If you read the search warrant, the police have made no serious argument that they have probable cause to believe that there’s anything in that room.

    Apparently, a judge disagreed with you.

    And I certainly don’t think Duke, or any university or service provider should be combing through people’s e-mail and “acting independently” with response to it. I’m pretty disturbed by the “confidential informant” who released this e-mail to the police.

    I strongly advise you to read up on case law regarding email sent through employer’s or university or school district email systems.

  168. Daniel@NYU
    April 19, 2006 at 2:42 pm

    Oh and Daniel, as for the e-mail, no one made the kid sit down and write it. Plus just like writing a letter, you can’t make the recipient keep it private. There is just no privilige that covers that legally, though socially of course we would condemn somenoe who circulates private letters. The police had every right to check all attendees e-mail and see if there was evidence of a plan made in advance to commit a crime, or a conspiracy to hush it up after. If you were robbed by someone at a party of a substantial amount of cash, but you were not sure who, wouldn’t you want the cops the checking the attendees e-mail to see if per chance someone bragged about it, asked someone to hide it, or maybe targeted you in advance with the help of some other attendees? Doesn’t seem so far fetched when the person searched admits they were there, does it?

    Absolutely not! That’s private correspondence, and there’s a very high privacy concern about that. I would have an extremely serious problem with the police doing routine fishing trips through people’s e-mail.

    Also, think about this. Under the circumstances, could any recipient afford not to take the threat in the e-mail literally? What if you sat on this, and the next week you heard about some stripper getting killed and dumped somewhere? OOOPS. Would you let your sister anywhere near the guy who sent this love note? Thought not.

    When I was in high school, my English class did a unit on existentialism, where we read “Waiting for Godot” and “Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead.” Another student and I did a school project related to this, which we called “Waiting for the Godfather,” where we portrayed gangsters, and made a lot of jokes about disposing of bodies. We were both fans of the Quentin Tarantino school of splatter-humor, and I was already reading Ellis at that point, but was not fully cognizant of the political issues that surrounded this kind of stuff, so our project had a certain sensibility that pushed some boundaries. Luckily, everybody seemed to think it was pretty funny.

    About a month later, those two kids in Colorado shot up their high school, and then the video tapes they had made started showing up on the news, and we were very disturbed by how our tape suddenly looked in retrospect.

    By the time that happened, nobody really thought much about our tape, but if that event had happened in slightly closer proximity to our project, we might have been caught up in the nationwide search for high-school psycho time bombs.

    A lot of us have things that were funny at the time (or at least we thought they were), but which would have been completely indefensible if presented in a different context. Now that it looks as though McFayden is not going to be accused of being a rapist, it seems like he was completely trashed and humiliated in the national media for saying the same kind of gross, drunken things that a million other guys have said with no repercussions in a million other circumstances.

  169. Daniel@NYU
    April 19, 2006 at 2:48 pm

    Apparently, a judge disagreed with you.

    Yes. I am saying that a magistrate in North Carolina was wrong to have granted this warrant.

    I strongly advise you to read up on case law regarding email sent through employer’s or university or school district email systems.

    I am well aware of this.

    Many employers screen employee e-mail. Most universities take strong positions about preserving user privacy, as do most commercial service providers. I am perfectly aware that McFayden had no rights to privacy against Duke on their e-mail, unless they promised him something.

    It doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be an expectation of privacy in private communication.

  170. April 19, 2006 at 3:31 pm

    Daniel, basically your argument comes down to “it’s not fair.”

    As i said so often to my kids when they were 6 years old that i got sick of it, “Life isn’t fair. Get over it.”

    Let me repeat myself one last time. Using an employer or university provided email systemm is not “private communication.” This principle has been established so many times, and so many companies and schools have written policies explaining this, that your continuing claim makes me wonder about NYU’s admission policies as well.

    If the magistrate erred in issuing the warrant, and convictions are obtained upon the evidence acquired, any competent attorney will be able to get those convictions overturned. Perhaps by the time this case gets that far along, you’ll be able to plead that case.

    In the meantime, the latest update from the News and Observer in Raleigh is interesting both for what the defense attorneys had to say, and for what they didn’t.

    First, they made no reference to any of the so-called alibi material which was leaked to several media outlets yesterday. Seligmann’s lawyer, in fact, is saying he will have nothing else too say in the case.

    Finnerty’s lawyer found himself denying that his client would plead guilty. Why would he feel the need to say that, i wonder, when the defense has been maintaining all along that no crime was committed?

    Almost full disclosure: Finnerty’s lawyer, Bill Cotter, represented me in a case 6 years ago. I found him to be a reputable man.

  171. raging red
    April 19, 2006 at 3:38 pm

    Also, it isn’t known for certain that the school provided the police with the email, is it? A recipient of the email could have given it to them.

  172. Daniel@NYU
    April 19, 2006 at 4:24 pm

    Daniel, basically your argument comes down to “it’s not fair.”

    Let me repeat myself one last time. Using an employer or university provided email systemm is not “private communication.” This principle has been established so many times, and so many companies and schools have written policies explaining this, that your continuing claim makes me wonder about NYU’s admission policies as well.

    Well, if the opinion of the Durham magistrate trumps my opinion to the contrary, the opinion of the NYU admissions committee trumps yours. So there.

    I am well aware that this guy had no legal right against his private service provider screening his e-mail.

    Usually, if you’re subject to screening, you know it though. I don’t know what Duke’s policy is, but both my undergraduate school and NYU have pretty strong statements about their commitment to user privacy, which many students rely on. I expect the e-mail was probably leaked by one of the recipients and not by the school, and I hope that’s the case.

    If NYU’s admission policies allowed you to come here, you might know that most colleges and universities have very different policies with regard to online privacy than corporate employers who worry about productivity and wasted time online, and high schools who worry about the content that their students are able to obtain.

    In any case, my opinion that the warrant should not have been granted is unrelated to the source of the e-mail. I don’t think the content of the e-mail created any probable cause that there was likely to be evidence of a crime in McFayden’s room, or even any cause to believe it was more likely that McFayden was a rapist than any of the other 45 members of the team.

    I don’t merely disagree with the judge in his exercise of his discretion, I believe he abused his discretion. However, since the search does not appear to have yielded anything resulting in McFayden being charged, I doubt that the warrant will ever be reviewed in a suppression hearing.

    First, they made no reference to any of the so-called alibi material which was leaked to several media outlets yesterday. Seligmann’s lawyer, in fact, is saying he will have nothing else too say in the case.

    That doesn’t mean it’s not true. I think it was a mistake for him to publicize it so soon. If he wants to get his client off, he is best if she establishes a version of the facts that he can prove is incorrect. By putting Seligmann’s alibi out there, he gives her a lot of time to reconsider her recollections.

    This woman’s story has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese, and you still want to hang these kids. Why is that?

    Finnerty’s lawyer found himself denying that his client would plead guilty. Why would he feel the need to say that, i wonder, when the defense has been maintaining all along that no crime was committed?

    Uuuuuh….maybe he was responding to a direct question? Way to go calling him on that Sherlock! If he’s saying he’s not pleading guilty, HE MUST HAVE DONE IT!

  173. Nobody
    April 19, 2006 at 5:09 pm

    If “rape kits” are so damning and predisposed toward false positives as you claim, then why are conviction rates for people brought to trial so low? Odds of a rape case brought to trial ending in a conviction 16%. The rate at which rape falsely claimed: 2% (the same as other crimes like theft and arson)

    The conviction rate for rape cases brought to trial is (according to the NCPA) 58%.

    The rate at which rape is falsely claimed is unknown and unknowable. I hope I’m not making a bore of myself on this point. It seem important to me, but I’m content to leave off if it’s not welcome.

  174. Ahlana
    April 19, 2006 at 5:34 pm

    And on that same NCPA site you’ll see the 16% as the number of cases that the perp gets jail time, not a just a conviction.
    /stands corrected…
    but when only 1 in 6 rapists are getting jail time…
    /sigh

    And the rate at which someone gets in trouble for filing a false police report on a rape charge is 2%

  175. sandrahn
    April 19, 2006 at 5:54 pm

    I’ve never posted here, I came here thru cursor.org. I like this site very much but this is the first time I’ve felt the need to post a comment.

    First, a bit of intro: since the early 1980s I’ve worked on issues relating to domestic violence and sexual assault. I’ve worked at various human rights groups on international law dealing with sexual assault and rape. I’ve studied case law on rape, worked with the Womens Rights Project at Human Rights Watch, and have attended several court cases involving rape and domestic violence in the US, the UK, Brazil and Canada.

    It is deeply depressing how even in 2006 it is so easy to see people resort to the centuries-old charge of “she lied!” without knowing anything about the accuser herself except what trickles thru the sensationalist press.

    The reason that I am usually inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to a rape accuser is simply based on the documented history of rape case law and the history of rape prosecution: that is, rape as a crime is an extremely, extremely difficult crime to prove. That is why in the overwhelming majority of rape accusations brought before the police, no prosecution ever occurs. Not necessarily because no rape occurred but because the accuser has a checkered past that would hurt her case, or because prosecutors and investigators simply cannot come up with a strong enuf case they feel comfortable enough to bring before a judge. Prosecutors’ criteria for going forward are extremely difficult to fulfill. Historically, prosecutors do not decide to prosecute a rape case unless they are very, very certain of their case. The very last thing they want to do is to go before a judge with a flimsy case. In this particular case, that is especially true because of the intense media scrutiny.

    Secondly, it is a documented fact that most rapes do not go reported. Most women just do not have the will and the courage to go thru the whole horrific process. And most women unfortunately blame themselves for being attacked. (Men never seem to be held to the same level of responsibility for their sexual conduct as women do.) So that any woman who actually decides to bring a case forward gets my credibility radar up instantly. I am amazed at any woman who is willing to deal with the public humiliation and abuse she will inevitably endure. This is especially true with high-profile cases in the public eye. The fact that the accuser in question has a profile that already damns her in the eyes of sexist bigots tells me that she is quite serious in what she is doing, and that her complaint should be taken seriously. She is a stripper by trade who necessarily has to deal with male boorishness all the time. I’m sure she’s used to dealing with flirts, guys that get out of hand, etc. I’m sure she thought carefully that her profession would cause people to disbelieve her accusation. Yet she went ahead and charged rape. Suddenly, at a routine job assignment, she flees, leaves her possessions and money, and runs to the hospital, badly injured, and charges rape. So, yes, I am willing to give her a great deal of credibility.

    Finally, I am well acquainted with privileged young college men and their frat/sports culture. One of them attacked, raped and nearly killed a dear friend of mine (she did not prosecute, she did nothing, because she was simply too afraid to deal with the attacks that would inevitably be turned against her–he was handsome and very popular). Their sense of entitlement knows no bounds, they’re used to doing as they please with little supervision, esp. if they’re a team that gives their university some status and prestige. It is depressing to see how so many women still prefer to automatically, take a man’s word against a woman’s, still refuses to see how much courage it takes for a woman to actually charge rape and demand prosecution, to endure something most people would never choose to.

    I have known and counseled many rape victims of all races for almost 3 decades now. Few of them had the courage to charge their attackers. They know that society gives the word of woman far less credibility than it does to the word of a man, as the reactionary bigots on this thread ably demonstrate.

  176. cfw
    April 19, 2006 at 6:02 pm

    Qgrll:

    “do you care to explain Walltown to me then? You know, my neighborhood, seven blocks from the alleged crime scene? The one three blocks from Duke? … with the drive-by’s, the crack sales, and the condemned houses.”

    It gets worse if Duke leaves, right? No major employer is charged with any duty to fix all the ills of Durham.

    “If by ‘property values near Duke have gone up’ you mean the exact one block perimeter around Duke’s East Campus, then even that is shaky. Values have gone up precisely because Duke bought out the houses that the students were renting, making it impossible for students to rent these houses ever again, and has and is reselling these properties to Duke employees. In fact, 610 Buchanan St., where the alleged crime took place, was just bought by Duke in February of this year. However, the majority of properties within a three-four block radius of Duke are low income: Walltown, Birch Ave., the section 8 housing behind the VA, etc.”

    And they get less valuable if Duke’s undergrads are moved out of Durham, right? I hear property values are up 300% in the last 10 years or so. I take it you rent? Renters tend to get less of a boost than they should from property value increases.

    “Further, as a Duke employee of 12 years and a resident of Trinity Park/Trinity Heights/Walltown for the last 16 years, I know that your claim that Durham hates Duke is completely without merit and really just amounts to you pulling shit outta your ass.”

    My relatives (2 in-laws) who went to Duke 30 years ago tell stories about not putting Duke stickers on cars for fear of mistreatment by cops. Same stories are out there now, and not just after March 13, 2006.. Look at the DA’s conduct here – over the top, in my view, and directed at Duke as some sort of pariah. Look at the recent City council meeting, focusing on drinking at Duke (ignoring NCCU and UNC). Look at illegal mass arrests by police of Duke students. Take a walk in someone else’s shoes, maybe someone helping to pay $40,000 per year in tuition, then talk about “no one hates Duke in Durham.”

    Recall how Disney worked out concessions from Anaheim by proposing expansion of Disneyland (Disney by the Sea) in Long Beach? Duke should take a page from that playbook. So long as Durham knows that Duke could expand elsewhere and not just in Durham, the locals avoid getting too complacent.

    There are lots of ways to use the Duke assets. Duke has huge land holdings in Durham aside from the University. Taking steps to diversify (trade land in Durham for land in Boston, for example) could bring Durham to a more cooperative attitude. Propose to take over a campus in San Diego for stem cell work as opposed to expanding in Durham and see if the locals sit up and take notice.

    Confining prisoners at $40,000 per capita is not bad money – if Duke ever chose to convert its undergrad housing into a for-profit confinement facility. At least prisoners piss on the lawns less often than young students.

    Look at Disney going to Florida, Japan, Hong Kong, etc. Duke diversification geographically is a medium to long-term concern, but should not be ignored by the Durham area. Durham should not look at Duke like some sort of cash-cow to be milked and mistreated. Since Durham (the DA, the Police, the City Council) appears intent on continuing to over-reach with respect to Duke and Duke students, Duke might be well-served if it reviewed some of the management strategies employed by Disney to keep Anaheim from acting like a greedy monopolist.

    “Nice try though. Nice attempt to make Durham residents look like the criminals and amoral ones in this situation.” DA Nifong’s conduct deserves an “amoral” label in my view. The V, I suspect, has committed a crime and falsely alleged rape. I am happy to keep an open mind until the facts are in, but I prediuct this case ends within a couple of weeks of May 2 (election day for Nifong). If it goes to trial, I predict it ends with both the accused individuals exonerated. You predict guilt findings? If Nifong gets elected, and treats his election as a mandate to continue his over-reaching, Duke should quietly put a moratorium on further expansion in Durham (if it has not done so already). Why put more assets to work where one is not wanted?

  177. Raging Moderate
    April 19, 2006 at 6:13 pm

    And on that same NCPA site you’ll see the 16% as the number of cases that the perp gets jail time, not a just a conviction.

    Unless I’m copletely misreading that chart, I think it says that 16% of alleged perps get jail time, and 69% of proven perps get jail time.

    Even so, how could someone convicted of rape not be jailed? This, if true, is much more of a reason to take to the streets to protest than this individual case is.

  178. Daniel@NYU
    April 19, 2006 at 6:27 pm

    It’s just not true that rape cases are the only cases where the question of whether someone is lying comes into question. The question of credibility is raised with regard to every single witness who testifies in every single case.

    People accuse defendants of lying, people accuse cops of lying, people accuse experts of lying, people accuse eyewitnesses of lying, and people do all sorts of things to chip away at all kinds of witnesses’ certainty about what they saw, in order to find that reasonable doubt. The question of where to go with challenging the credibility of a rape victim is probably the most loaded political issue in the law of evidence. But the benefit of the doubt is noncontroversial. It goes to the defendant, just like in every other case.

    Even if your sympathies are with the victim, you have to be pretty certain that she knows what happened to her, and that she’s telling the truth to send somebody to jail for a very long time on no evidence but her testimony.

    The simple fact is, though that our system’s policy values, with regard to using the state’s coercive powers to mete out punishment tilts heavily against tolerating risk that this power will be used unjustly against the innocent, and therefore, we give the benefit of any reasonable doubt to the defendant, not just in a rape case, but in every criminal prosecution.

    I don’t think this is a case of people refusing to believe a rape accuser. I believe that an eyewitness with her criminal record, the evidence that she was intoxicated at the time, and the alibi evidence produced by one of the people she identified would lead most people to assume a similarly situated witness to be hard to view credibly in any other circumstance.

    In fact, in any other circumstance other than a rape case, if the evidence against the defendants was the testimony of a witness whose credibility was similarly dubious, I don’t believe there would ever be an indictment.

    Would you be inclined to convict a man of the armed-robbery another man when the only evidence presented in support of the mugging was the identification by a victim who was falling-down drunk at the time he was robbed, and the defendant has a witness and an ATM receipt placing him somewhere else at the time of the mugging?

  179. evil_fizz
    April 19, 2006 at 6:37 pm

    cfw, this “Duke could leave and then where would Durham be?” is a contender for the stupidest argument in this thread. Universities do not just say “Well, we’re not happy here, let’s pick up our millions of dollars worth of gothic architecture and go somewhere else.” (Also, this “Duke is everything to Durham and they’d do well to remember it!” is additionally elitist and obnoxious.) Give it up already.

  180. evil_fizz
    April 19, 2006 at 6:41 pm

    I don’t think this is a case of people refusing to believe a rape accuser.

    Daniel, I’d like you to meet cfw:

    The V, I suspect, has committed a crime and falsely alleged rape.

  181. Nobody
    April 19, 2006 at 7:12 pm

    Using the same logic as was used to reach the conclusion that 16% of rapists spend time in jail for the crime, we can extrapolate that forty some odd percent of rape accusers are lying, but that only 5% of the liars get in any trouble over it. The ubiquitous 2% is not a useful statistic, even if it weren’t made up. Which, as it happens, it is.

    The true rate of false rape accusation is unknown and unknowable. It is unlikely that it is much higher or lower than the normal rate of false criminal reporting, but it’s unknown and unknowable.

  182. TheKickingDonkey
    April 19, 2006 at 9:35 pm

    This site never disappoints..

    My favorite comment ever:

    are you educated

    Do you know what 5.3% relevancy means, duh, of course you don’t.

    So two idiots make up something up and that makes it fact?

    you know what is a sure sign that someone lost a debate, they play the semantics or the spelling or the grammar game

    Debbie, if you did not exist, duh, we would have to make you up! Please don’t ever change…

    Lauren and evil-fizz, since you made up google and wikipedia, I was wondering if I could get some publicity on them?

  183. bmc90
    April 19, 2006 at 11:20 pm

    Dan, you never answered my question. Would you trust Finnerty drunk, alone with your sister, and feeling he got cheated out of a lap dance based on what you know about him? Me either.

    I don’t know whether a rape was committed, but if even half the stuff about the guys involved is true, I don’t think I’d be interested in being their buddy or sending my kids to the same school as them. And I equally wag my finger at all those silly girls who watch Pretty Woman and think that stripping or turning a few tricks is anything less than super dangerous, though at least a lot of them have the excuse of being very hard up for money, crack addicts, or messed up childhood sex abuse victims, not the daughter of the government liason for Merril Lynch in DC, going to the best schools (as one of the accued is).

    And I know people write and say sick things when they really have no actual intent to do any harm. However, if you write about hurting people and the person you write about ended up in the hospital after being in a house where YOU live, people will legitimately ask more questions, read your e-mail, etc. Duh.

    And what about all this crap about this being a big attack on Duke and Duke should move to Boston just to show em whose boss. Duke is not under incitment here. I think Duke’s administrators are sorry as hell that they did not go further than telling the lax coach he had to get his team in line (which one of the deans had recently done), since more than half of them had commited some kind of infraction, and no other sports team came close to their disciplinary problems. But ultimately, Duke can’t be responsible for the criminal act allegedly committed.

  184. Imani
    April 20, 2006 at 6:01 am

    It’s just not true that rape cases are the only cases where the question of whether someone is lying comes into question. The question of credibility is raised with regard to every single witness who testifies in every single case.

    People accuse defendants of lying, people accuse cops of lying, people accuse experts of lying, people accuse eyewitnesses of lying, and people do all sorts of things to chip away at all kinds of witnesses’ certainty about what they saw, in order to find that reasonable doubt. The question of where to go with challenging the credibility of a rape victim is probably the most loaded political issue in the law of evidence. But the benefit of the doubt is noncontroversial. It goes to the defendant, just like in every other case.

    So your contention, if I’m reading you correctly, is that there is nothing really different about rape cases. If this is your argument, I beg to differ. To be sure, doubt-casting of all kinds is de rigeur for every kind of criminal case. However, it appears to many of us that there exists for rape cases a ready-made narrative that is both potent and ubiquitous, and that has more than a passing resemblance to pre-existing cultural scripts. In defending against charges of rape, lawyers do not simply invent exculpatory arguments from whole cloth; rather they deploy (in some cases utterly without scruple) pre-existing beliefs about women and sexuality, and these naturally get bundled up with arguments about the accuser’s “credibility.” Such maneuvering in rape cases may superficially resemble the kind of doubt-casting that takes place in other kinds of cases, but can you really think of another kind of case in which stereotypic constructs are deployed to the same degree, or that involves narratives which are as well-rehearsed and reflexively iterated? I think you’d be hard-pressed.

    Another flaw I see in your argument is that it ignores the extent to which the accuser’s credibility was attacked from day one, before anything was known about her criminal record, before the much-ballyhooed DNA tests came back negative, and well before any alibi was produced by any of the charged players (although some on this thread have rightfully questioned just how much of an “alibi” it truly is). What many don’t understand, and what you seem to be having difficulty grasping, is that the Woman Who Cried Rape is a ready-made social role that just about ANY particular rape accuser will find herself fitted for, regardless of the facts of the case. In the Duke case, “She’s a Liar” was always there, ready to be deployed at a moment’s notice. How could so many have leapt to this conclusion so quickly, if not for the preconditioning that comes with living in a patriarchal society?

    Feminists are right to critique this and other aspects of the discourse surrounding this case. Feminists’ essential role as discourse-shapers is at least as important as their advocacy for this particular woman, which is part of the reason I tend to disagree with those who aver that feminists will end up with “egg on their faces” should it ever be found that the woman is lying or, even more absurdly, if the accused are merely found not guilty. Feminists are saying things that need to be said, to people who are as receptive as they’re likely ever to be given current realities. In any event, that ours is a rape culture is never welcome news–there is no ideal moment at which to broach the subject, nor ideal circumstances under which to broach it. To talk about rape is necessarily to interrupt business-as-usual, and feminists have a moral imperative to be interrupters.

  185. tza
    April 20, 2006 at 6:13 am

    but here’s what seems clear enough to me: Duke has serious problems with race, entitlement and class

    and then you go on to detail why you think they did it. but, wait a minute, NYU sure ain’t cheap. That’s where you go to school right jill? can’t be too poor going to all those exotict places. and a woman, a white woman? who are more privileged than that? the answer, minority women at privileged institutions like NYU. (affirmative action anyone? michigan law school? how many bonus points did you get? i’m sure there are plenty of set-asides for feministas at NYU law school. you are “entitled” to them after all, i’m sure you had a hard life being picked on by all those jocks. at least in sports people are “hanicapped” in order to provide a more satisfactory social outcome. the playing field is pretty level. the WNBA isn’t getting enough recognition. maybe we should make lebron james wear concrete shoes. is this racist? i don’t think so. what’s racist is to advantage, or disadvantage, people based on their race. i’m around different races every day. and i hear the most racist comments come out of people’s mouth of every race all the time, that doesn’t mean i think any of them would try to run over a cop. some might. i don’t know them all that well. so ms. privileged, obviously you think they did it. i think you did it.

  186. hydropsyche
    April 20, 2006 at 8:21 am

    I’m a grad student at Duke and a resident of the beautiful Old West Durham neighborhood adjacent to campus (and to Walltown home of QGrrrl). I think Duke students hate Durham a lot more than Durham hates Duke and I’m not really sure why they feel that way. Durham is far and away the most diverse and interesting place I have lived–it is a lot bigger and better than any college town. I love my neighbors, the corner restaurants, coffee shops, and bars, the independent book and cd stores, the farmers market, the parks, the arts scene.

    I see no evidence that Duke is taking the attempt to prosecute some of its students as an unjustified attack on the institution. In fact, in President Brodhead’s statements we see every indication that he has wanted to fight the culture of snobbery, elitism, and alcohol on campus for a long time and that this incident is an incentive to finally get started. Fixing that culture will go a long way to addressing the root causes to why this happened and why so many students are so quick to call a rape victim a liar.

  187. April 20, 2006 at 8:45 am

    This interview with the cab driver seems to confirm that something happened even before Seligmann left b/c check the quote from the cab driver regarding remarks by the unidentified passenger:

    I’ve gone back and forth shaking my head with the information and misinformation that has arisen with this case, always giving the victim the benefit of the doubt that something happened, but that she wasn’t remembering correctly. Yesterday, even after Seligman’s alibi came to light, I still believed something happened, but that a misidentification had occurred. This quote from the linked article seems to confirm that fact:
    __________________________________________________
    In an interview on MSNBC, Mostafa said he returned to the house later to pick up another customer. He said he remembered that person “said in a loud voice, ‘She just a stripper.'”

    Asked whether the second fare was complaining about the stripper or whether it appeared something bad had happened to her, Mostafa initially said he didn’t “have any information about what was going on in the house.”

    “When I look back, he look like he mad at the stripper. Or the stripper, she going to call the police and she just a stripper. … It look to me like somebody get hurt. But what kind of harm, … I have no idea.”
    __________________________________________________

    In an interview on MSNBC, Mostafa said he returned to the house later to pick up another customer. He said he remembered that person “said in a loud voice, ‘She just a stripper.'”

    Asked whether the second fare was complaining about the stripper or whether it appeared something bad had happened to her, Mostafa initially said he didn’t “have any information about what was going on in the house.”

    “When I look back, he look like he mad at the stripper. Or the stripper, she going to call the police and she just a stripper. … It look to me like somebody get hurt. But what kind of harm, … I have no idea.”

    http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=472301&BCCode=BNSPORTS&newsdate=4/20/2006

  188. Daniel@NYU
    April 20, 2006 at 9:26 am

    Once she misidentifies one assailant with “100% certainty,” could you convict anyone else beyond a reasonable doubt based on her identification of them, even if you have no doubt she was raped in that house?

  189. Q Grrl
    April 20, 2006 at 10:06 am

    It occured to me last night: if both of these “boys” were not at the party at the time of the crime, etc., why haven’t the other lacrosse players stepped up to validate that? Why the continued silence? Who has so much to lose from this situation that he can’t/won’t step forward?

  190. evil_fizz
    April 20, 2006 at 10:20 am

    we can extrapolate that forty some odd percent of rape accusers are lying, but that only 5% of the liars get in any trouble over it.

    The hell? Just because someone is not convicted it DOES NOT mean that their accuser is lying. It means that there wasn’t enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. Go spew paranoia some place else.

  191. April 20, 2006 at 10:29 am

    The DA obviously jumped the gun, which has probably irreparably harmed the case. What would definitely save the case is one of the members coming forth with information that substantiates and points to the perpetrators, but how likely is that to happen? I wonder though who outted that infamous email and why? Guilty conscious? Maybe this could be the person to bring forth more info.

    Also, there are more DNA results coming in. The most this could do now is establish that there was some sexual contact, which would refute the members’ assertion that there was no sex whatsoever, denting their credibility. And hopefully, there will be something in the tests that would point to the actual rapists.

    Another big if.

  192. Malibu Stacy
    April 20, 2006 at 11:20 am

    Oh, Imani, that was just perfect, thank you.

  193. April 20, 2006 at 12:27 pm

    and then you go on to detail why you think they did it. but, wait a minute, NYU sure ain’t cheap. That’s where you go to school right jill? can’t be too poor going to all those exotict places. and a woman, a white woman? who are more privileged than that? the answer, minority women at privileged institutions like NYU. (affirmative action anyone? michigan law school? how many bonus points did you get? i’m sure there are plenty of set-asides for feministas at NYU law school. you are “entitled” to them after all, i’m sure you had a hard life being picked on by all those jocks. at least in sports people are “hanicapped” in order to provide a more satisfactory social outcome. the playing field is pretty level. the WNBA isn’t getting enough recognition. maybe we should make lebron james wear concrete shoes. is this racist? i don’t think so. what’s racist is to advantage, or disadvantage, people based on their race. i’m around different races every day. and i hear the most racist comments come out of people’s mouth of every race all the time, that doesn’t mean i think any of them would try to run over a cop. some might. i don’t know them all that well. so ms. privileged, obviously you think they did it. i think you did it.

    Wow, tza, you just won the award for dumbest comment anyone has ever left on this blog. Congrats.

    A few things: I’ve never denied that I’m coming from a very privileged position. But that doesn’t mean that I still can’t critique it. As for NYU Law being expensive, you’re right, it is — which is why I’ll be $200,000 in debt when I graduate, because I’ve taken out loans to pay for all of it myself.

    And if you really think that minorities are more “privileged” than everyone else, and if you think that NYU Law sets aside places for “feministas” (are you serious?), then I suggest you take a quick look around and see who’s running things in this world. It ain’t poor brown folks.

    Now go troll somewhere else.

  194. April 20, 2006 at 12:33 pm

    The hell? Just because someone is not convicted it DOES NOT mean that their accuser is lying. It means that there wasn’t enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. Go spew paranoia some place else.

    I don’t think the guy was spewing paranoia, he was trying to illustrate that such logic is faulty. He was responding to:

    And on that same NCPA site you’ll see the 16% as the number of cases that the perp gets jail time, not a just a conviction.
    /stands corrected…
    but when only 1 in 6 rapists are getting jail time…
    /sigh

    …by saying:

    Using the same logic as was used to reach the conclusion that 16% of rapists spend time in jail for the crime, we can extrapolate that forty some odd percent of rape accusers are lying, but that only 5% of the liars get in any trouble over it. The ubiquitous 2% is not a useful statistic, even if it weren’t made up. Which, as it happens, it is.

    I took his comment as meaning that you can’t assume that the percentage of people who “get in trouble” for false rape accusations (purportedly 2%) represents the actual percentage of false accusations, any more than you can assume the percentage of rape cases resulting in no conviction represents the actual percentage of false accusations–or that 16% of accused rapists doing jail time means that the remaining 84% were all rapists who went free. His conclusion that the true percentages are “unknown and unknowable” makes sense.

  195. zuzu
    April 20, 2006 at 12:33 pm

    And yet another one who doesn’t realize that there was and is no points system at Michigan Law.

  196. piny
    April 20, 2006 at 1:06 pm

    Tza, if Jill ever rapes anyone, we can analyze the privilege that gave her the idea that she had the right to perpetrate brutal sexual violence against another person. Since, AFAIK, she hasn’t done anything of the kind, your points about her status aren’t really relevant.

  197. bmc90
    April 20, 2006 at 1:22 pm

    I went to a second tier law school with all blind grading and no “bonus points” for women or minorities as far as moot court, law review and the other journals. HOWEVER, admissions requirements were waived for a certain percentage of minorities. I taught in the summer program to help bring these students up to where the other admits were in terms of writing skills. After admission, however, everyone was on their own. Because there were so many minorities competing against people with higher grades and LSATS, in my class there were no minorities on law review; however, there were on moot court. Anyway, there are very few law schools with any kind of “set asides” except for admission, and I can’t even think of one that gives women any kind of edge at all.

  198. Josh
    April 20, 2006 at 3:52 pm

    I was on the ed board of the law review at Michigan and the way it worked was that everyone with a certain writing/grade composite would make it, people who did really well on the writing bit would make it regardless of their grades, and then the class would be assessed for diversity, and additional candidates might make it on that basis. My year I don’t think we had to do the diversity step, but you should have seen the meeting where the policy was approved. we wasted 3 hours arguing only to approve the same policy that had been used the past five years. Fortunately this was right after Grutter came down so we didn’t have to worry that we were violating the Constitution.

  199. Nobody
    April 20, 2006 at 10:33 pm

    If there was any doubt, Hubris explained exactly what I meant. Looking at my post, the second paragraph would seem to make it impossible to infer that I really meant to accuse forty some odd percent of rape victims of lying about it, but maybe that’s why disclaimers get put at the top, instead of the bottom.

  200. Q Grrl
    April 21, 2006 at 11:13 am

    This from local coverage today (WRAL.com)

    Other than lacrosse players and the accuser, a 27-year-old student at a nearby university, Roberts is believed to be the only other person at the March 13 party.

    Roberts said Thursday she does not remember Seligmann’s face, but said she recalls seeing Finnerty — whom she described as the “little skinny one.”

    “I was looking him right in the eyes,” she said.

    Although she would not talk extensively about the party, she confirmed some of what the other dancer told police — including that the women initially left the party after one of the players threatened to sodomize the women with a broomstick.

    The players’ attorneys have said their clients were angry and demanded a refund when the women stopped dancing, but Roberts disputed that.

    “They ripped themselves off when they started hollering about a broomstick,” she said.

    Holy.Shit.

  201. raging red
    April 21, 2006 at 11:55 am

    God. And this:

    Roberts drove herself to the party and said she could have left anytime, but she said, “I didn’t want to leave her with them.”

    Roberts then drove the accuser — whom she had just met that night — to a grocery store and asked a security guard to call 911. The accuser was described later by a police officer as “just passed-out drunk.”

    Roberts said the woman was sober when they arrived at the house. But by the time the party was over, she said the accuser was too incoherent to tell her where she lived, let alone that she had been raped.

    “I didn’t do enough,” she said, tears welling in her eyes. “I didn’t do enough. I didn’t do enough.”

  202. Daniel@NYU
    April 21, 2006 at 4:32 pm

    Roberts’s concern with not wanting to leave the accuser with the lacrosse team doesn’t seem to be consistent with the fact that she had no idea what was happening to the accuser during the 20 or 30 minutes she was allegedly being raped in that bathroom.

    If these women were afraid for their safety, as they say they were, you think they would have stuck together, or, at least, that the second woman would have had some degree of awareness of what was going on.

    This woman’s substantial interest in currying Nifong’s favor by telling him what he wants to hear also can’t be ignored. I can’t see her doing very much to buttress or corroborate the accuser’s reconstruction of the events of that night.

    I would be interested in hearing what she has to say about the timeline the media has constructed from the defense’s photos, and whether she disputes that, and also, whether she was outside the house at 12:15-12:20, when the cab driver pulled up, and what she was doing.

  203. Q Grrl
    April 21, 2006 at 4:48 pm

    Woot. It’s a twofer deal then. Two lying women for the price of on worthless whore.

    /sarcasm

  204. Daniel@NYU
    April 22, 2006 at 9:24 am

    Woot. It’s a twofer deal then. Two lying women for the price of on worthless whore.

    /sarcasm

    I’m more inclined to disbelieve the women than the evidence.

  205. CW
    April 23, 2006 at 10:35 am

    If these women were afraid for their safety, as they say they were, you think they would have stuck together, or, at least, that the second woman would have had some degree of awareness of what was going on.

    Given the nature of the profession, they are around rowdy types a lot it would seem. There is money to be made and they wouldn’t want to anger their company. Plus, the second stripper was new to this and basically following the alleged victim’s lead; there were many men in that small house, that sort of environment could make it harder than it seems to “be aware” of what is going on with the other woman at every turn.

    I would be interested in hearing what she has to say about the timeline the media has constructed from the defense’s photos, and whether she disputes that,

    The defense can’t even decide what their photos show. First, they showed the alleged victim arriving battered and staggering. People questioned how, if that were true, she would have been able to dance. Then people viewed said photos and either said nothing about bruises and the like, or mentioned the alleged victim was laying flat on her back on the porch, with a cut on her ankle. The second dancer said she hadn’t noticed any bruises when they arrived and that, in fact, the woman was quite fine. So, oops, the defense changed it, “she acquired the bruises from falling on the back porch” (which apparently only shows a cut ankle or something).

    Then of course you have the finger-nails: she is shown doing her nails as she comes up the steps, which explains why they are laying on the floor in the bathroom. Of course anybody who wears fake nails will understand how that makes no sense. So then they say a photo shows nails missing (since, you know, now they understand it doesn’t make sense to paint your real nails and then put on fake ones. Or to put on fake ones with that superglue and then rip them off in a bathroom) while she is dancing.

    This woman’s substantial interest in currying Nifong’s favor by telling him what he wants to hear also can’t be ignored. I can’t see her doing very much to buttress or corroborate the accuser’s reconstruction of the events of that night.

    Well, that’s really the thing, isn’t it? She hasn’t said anything incriminating, she has only changed her opinion on what may have gone on because of the spin and media-whoring the defense is doing. Her comments about the broom and racist slurs have corroborated the alleged victim’s, and that is it. If she were so intent on “currying Nifong’s favor”, she would have introduced something incriminating. She hasn’t. As she said, “I don’t want anybody innocent to go to jail” and “if somebody didn’t do it, they should relax and brush off their shoulders”. That attitude isn’t reflected by the defense, who by this time would have typically gone to the DA, shown that “hard evidence”, gotten a dismissal and/or a speedy trial. Or if they tried, would have whored it to the media like they have everything else. If the defense cares so much about “these boys”, they would have done more to get the indictment dismissed on the man they say an air-tight alibi exists for or tried and let us know it didn’t work.

    and also, whether she was outside the house at 12:15-12:20, when the cab driver pulled up, and what she was doing.

    You mean the cab-driver who pulled up and heard a male voice shout, “she’s only a stripper!”? Gee, I wonder what the DA is doing for him?

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