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	<title>Comments on: Are We Surprised?</title>
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	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
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		<title>By: Lynn Gazis-Sax</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-45002</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynn Gazis-Sax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 May 2006 14:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-45002</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;I’ve lost track of the number of Christian teenagers who have pompously told me that waiting for marriage is “easy”, that you just have to have “self control”.&lt;/em&gt;

Andrew Greeley once said, in defending clerical celibacy, that he thought it was no harder to live up to than marriage vows - sometimes easy, and sometimes nearly impossible.

I&#039;m not convinced that his equivalence between the difficulty of celibacy and the difficulty of marriage is quite on track, but the business about celibacy being sometimes easy and sometimes nearly impossible has the ring of truth to me.

It &lt;em&gt;was&lt;/em&gt; easy for me to graduate high school still a virgin.  Being not all that popular was part of it, but not all of it.  I really wasn&#039;t dying to lose my virginity, or requiring lots of self-control to maintain it.  &quot;Not me, not now&quot; was what I &lt;em&gt;wanted&lt;/em&gt;, and I never regretted waiting.

Staying virginal until I married at the age of 27 was another matter.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>I’ve lost track of the number of Christian teenagers who have pompously told me that waiting for marriage is “easy”, that you just have to have “self control”.</em></p>
<p>Andrew Greeley once said, in defending clerical celibacy, that he thought it was no harder to live up to than marriage vows &#8211; sometimes easy, and sometimes nearly impossible.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not convinced that his equivalence between the difficulty of celibacy and the difficulty of marriage is quite on track, but the business about celibacy being sometimes easy and sometimes nearly impossible has the ring of truth to me.</p>
<p>It <em>was</em> easy for me to graduate high school still a virgin.  Being not all that popular was part of it, but not all of it.  I really wasn&#8217;t dying to lose my virginity, or requiring lots of self-control to maintain it.  &#8220;Not me, not now&#8221; was what I <em>wanted</em>, and I never regretted waiting.</p>
<p>Staying virginal until I married at the age of 27 was another matter.</p>
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		<title>By: HeoCwaeth</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44991</link>
		<dc:creator>HeoCwaeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 May 2006 13:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44991</guid>
		<description>Backing up m. luminous, I just did a little study on local Crisis Pregnancy Centers/Abstinence Ed centers (double the government funds, don&#039;t ya know), and the information disseminated to these kids is misrepresented data, close but still scientifically false biology, or just plain imaginary horse-product most of the time.  The whole program is designed to frighten them away from sex AND birth control.  Of course they don&#039;t use condoms when they&#039;re regularly told that condoms have a 31% failure rate &quot;with scrupulous and correct&quot; use.  Besides, owning birth control measures means that you&#039;ve actually thought about having sex, and planned for it ... that&#039;s two sins that mark you a dirty whore before you even kiss.

So, yeah, according to these places, the sexual partner one should least trust is the one who mentions birth control.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Backing up m. luminous, I just did a little study on local Crisis Pregnancy Centers/Abstinence Ed centers (double the government funds, don&#8217;t ya know), and the information disseminated to these kids is misrepresented data, close but still scientifically false biology, or just plain imaginary horse-product most of the time.  The whole program is designed to frighten them away from sex AND birth control.  Of course they don&#8217;t use condoms when they&#8217;re regularly told that condoms have a 31% failure rate &#8220;with scrupulous and correct&#8221; use.  Besides, owning birth control measures means that you&#8217;ve actually thought about having sex, and planned for it &#8230; that&#8217;s two sins that mark you a dirty whore before you even kiss.</p>
<p>So, yeah, according to these places, the sexual partner one should least trust is the one who mentions birth control.</p>
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		<title>By: hexy</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44966</link>
		<dc:creator>hexy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 May 2006 05:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44966</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve lost track of the number of Christian teenagers who have pompously told me that waiting for marriage is &quot;easy&quot;, that you just have to have &quot;self control&quot;.

I generally raise my divorced eyebrow and say nothing. I save my energy for the bit where they tell me that condoms are rubbish and don&#039;t stop anything, and that there&#039;s no need for STD tests if you&#039;re having sex (after marriage, of course) with a &quot;good Christian you can trust&quot;. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve lost track of the number of Christian teenagers who have pompously told me that waiting for marriage is &#8220;easy&#8221;, that you just have to have &#8220;self control&#8221;.</p>
<p>I generally raise my divorced eyebrow and say nothing. I save my energy for the bit where they tell me that condoms are rubbish and don&#8217;t stop anything, and that there&#8217;s no need for STD tests if you&#8217;re having sex (after marriage, of course) with a &#8220;good Christian you can trust&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Nomie</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44828</link>
		<dc:creator>Nomie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 May 2006 17:20:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44828</guid>
		<description>Yeah, but it&#039;s a problem for the rest of society, and for all those kids&#039; potential partners. 

Kyra - my story&#039;s like yours minus the pledge. Still a virgin, don&#039;t really care, because I haven&#039;t found anybody I want to have sex with. It&#039;s not a matter of waiting for True Love or marriage; it&#039;s waiting for someone I like and trust enough. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, but it&#8217;s a problem for the rest of society, and for all those kids&#8217; potential partners. </p>
<p>Kyra &#8211; my story&#8217;s like yours minus the pledge. Still a virgin, don&#8217;t really care, because I haven&#8217;t found anybody I want to have sex with. It&#8217;s not a matter of waiting for True Love or marriage; it&#8217;s waiting for someone I like and trust enough.</p>
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		<title>By: emily1</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44823</link>
		<dc:creator>emily1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 May 2006 16:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44823</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That’s a pretty substantial problem.&lt;/i&gt;

really?  the core goals of instilling shame and fear about sex have been accomplished, and when the kids screw up, they serve as an example to others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>That’s a pretty substantial problem.</i></p>
<p>really?  the core goals of instilling shame and fear about sex have been accomplished, and when the kids screw up, they serve as an example to others.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyra</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44821</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 May 2006 16:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44821</guid>
		<description>Well, I&#039;m not surprised.  I got one of those things when I was maybe fourteen or fifteen, at this big Christian rally thing that I was into at the time, and was too frightened not to sign it, thought it was mandatory, so I did.  And I&#039;m certainly not crediting it one bit; I was coerced and uninformed and had barely the faintest idea what all the fuss was about.

I&#039;d imagine that an abstinence suggestion based on waiting until you a) know yourself well enough to avoid negative emotional consequences, b) are assertive and self-confident enough to expect and demand both safety and pleasure from a partner, c) possess the self-esteem to avoid self-loathing and stand up to the &quot;slut&quot; double standard from society and peers, d) have attained access to birth control and found health care and STI testing facilities you are comfortable utilizing, e) have considered the various possible consquences and how you will react to them (decide whether you&#039;d have an abortion or not &lt;i&gt;before&lt;/i&gt; it becomes an issue; have access to EC; have money available for treatments and emergencies), and f) have found someone interested whom you desire and truly want to have sex with, would be a lot more useful at getting young people to delay sex than any moralizing &quot;save-it-for-marriage-&#039;cause-you-don&#039;t-deserve-pleasure-beforehand&quot; types.

Focusing truly on &quot;you&#039;re worth it&quot; without the negative qualifier &quot;you have to wait,&quot; (which sort of undermines &quot;you&#039;re worth it&quot; by badly attempting to repackage a sacrifice as a reward), and allowing a potentially-very-soon payoff, with the timing ultimately up to the student rather than an ages-away wedding night, will not only make waiting less of a burden, but also avoid the stigma of virginity as something you are forced into choosing.

I spent several years in middle and high school ashamed to be a virgin, because it felt like giving in to the pressure and coersion from family and church and so forth.  It took quite some time before I managed to claim the decision as my own, based solely on the fact that I hadn&#039;t met anyone worth fucking, rather than choosing to have sex with someone I wasn&#039;t interested in, solely to feel like I had made my own choice, which I probably would&#039;ve done if I hadn&#039;t realized that I could make the pressure irrelevent, that my own choice should be &lt;i&gt;in spite of&lt;/i&gt; that pressure, and not because of it.  No thanks to family and church on that one.

Virginity pledge be damned.  &lt;i&gt;MY&lt;/i&gt; choice, thank you very much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I&#8217;m not surprised.  I got one of those things when I was maybe fourteen or fifteen, at this big Christian rally thing that I was into at the time, and was too frightened not to sign it, thought it was mandatory, so I did.  And I&#8217;m certainly not crediting it one bit; I was coerced and uninformed and had barely the faintest idea what all the fuss was about.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d imagine that an abstinence suggestion based on waiting until you a) know yourself well enough to avoid negative emotional consequences, b) are assertive and self-confident enough to expect and demand both safety and pleasure from a partner, c) possess the self-esteem to avoid self-loathing and stand up to the &#8220;slut&#8221; double standard from society and peers, d) have attained access to birth control and found health care and STI testing facilities you are comfortable utilizing, e) have considered the various possible consquences and how you will react to them (decide whether you&#8217;d have an abortion or not <i>before</i> it becomes an issue; have access to EC; have money available for treatments and emergencies), and f) have found someone interested whom you desire and truly want to have sex with, would be a lot more useful at getting young people to delay sex than any moralizing &#8220;save-it-for-marriage-&#8217;cause-you-don&#8217;t-deserve-pleasure-beforehand&#8221; types.</p>
<p>Focusing truly on &#8220;you&#8217;re worth it&#8221; without the negative qualifier &#8220;you have to wait,&#8221; (which sort of undermines &#8220;you&#8217;re worth it&#8221; by badly attempting to repackage a sacrifice as a reward), and allowing a potentially-very-soon payoff, with the timing ultimately up to the student rather than an ages-away wedding night, will not only make waiting less of a burden, but also avoid the stigma of virginity as something you are forced into choosing.</p>
<p>I spent several years in middle and high school ashamed to be a virgin, because it felt like giving in to the pressure and coersion from family and church and so forth.  It took quite some time before I managed to claim the decision as my own, based solely on the fact that I hadn&#8217;t met anyone worth fucking, rather than choosing to have sex with someone I wasn&#8217;t interested in, solely to feel like I had made my own choice, which I probably would&#8217;ve done if I hadn&#8217;t realized that I could make the pressure irrelevent, that my own choice should be <i>in spite of</i> that pressure, and not because of it.  No thanks to family and church on that one.</p>
<p>Virginity pledge be damned.  <i>MY</i> choice, thank you very much.</p>
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		<title>By: Sara</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44816</link>
		<dc:creator>Sara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 May 2006 16:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44816</guid>
		<description>Catholic schoolgirl here too - although I don&#039;t remember a birth control discussion I remember lots of STD discussions, presentations and projects.  Oh, and the day this girl brought in Seventeen magazine and asked our health teacher what blue balls were.  Now THAT was riotous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Catholic schoolgirl here too &#8211; although I don&#8217;t remember a birth control discussion I remember lots of STD discussions, presentations and projects.  Oh, and the day this girl brought in Seventeen magazine and asked our health teacher what blue balls were.  Now THAT was riotous.</p>
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		<title>By: That Girl</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44812</link>
		<dc:creator>That Girl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 May 2006 15:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44812</guid>
		<description>My Catholic school also gave complete instruction in birth control, etc. It was also the first school I ever heard of that made the boy stay home as well as the girl after the fourth month. (Not that I agree with the staying home necessarily, but at least it was evenly applied).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My Catholic school also gave complete instruction in birth control, etc. It was also the first school I ever heard of that made the boy stay home as well as the girl after the fourth month. (Not that I agree with the staying home necessarily, but at least it was evenly applied).</p>
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		<title>By: Jill</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44809</link>
		<dc:creator>Jill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 May 2006 14:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44809</guid>
		<description>This is also a public health issue. Virginity pledges shame young people out of both planning for and admitting to having sex. As the article says, virginity pledgers are giving bad information about their sexual histories, and it&#039;s probably safe to assume that they&#039;re not even telling their personal doctors the truth. So they&#039;re sexually active but not preparing to be safe about it, not telling their doctors the truth about their choices, and probably not all that equipped to discuss sex with their partners, either. 

That&#039;s a pretty substantial problem. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is also a public health issue. Virginity pledges shame young people out of both planning for and admitting to having sex. As the article says, virginity pledgers are giving bad information about their sexual histories, and it&#8217;s probably safe to assume that they&#8217;re not even telling their personal doctors the truth. So they&#8217;re sexually active but not preparing to be safe about it, not telling their doctors the truth about their choices, and probably not all that equipped to discuss sex with their partners, either. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s a pretty substantial problem.</p>
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		<title>By: norbizness</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44801</link>
		<dc:creator>norbizness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 May 2006 13:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/08/are-we-surprised/#comment-44801</guid>
		<description>No, it&#039;s a think tank. It&#039;s where thinking is stored, far away from the public.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, it&#8217;s a think tank. It&#8217;s where thinking is stored, far away from the public.</p>
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