Karen at Oddity Collector, whilst on the DC Comics message boards, got a gander at a new Frank Miller cover. Now, I’m not a comic-book kind of gal, but I retain enough knowledge of superheroes from Saturday-morning Superfriends watching in the 70s to know that that’s probably Wonder Woman’s skirt clinging to her ass crack.
What creeped Karen out even more than the cover was the reaction to it from the fanboys — or, to be more specific, the reaction of the fanboys to the objections that some of the other people had. To wit:
maelithil:
Depicting [women] as an ass, a pair of tits, some gorgeous thighs is doing them a disservice. Distilling them into nothing but their sexual attributes is objectifying. And that’s exactly what this cover does.Random Fanboy:
And notice that Superman’s chest is OFTEN a whole panel unto itself. Not Superman fighting the bad guy. Not Superman standing full figure. Superman’s chest. Just his chest. His huge, massive, S-draped, extraterrestrially muscular chest. Is Superman being objectified? Is he being used? Should I cry for Superman?
As Karen points out, that’s not exactly a good counterexample. On the one hand, we have Wonder Woman’s ass, thighs and one breast (which you can only see because of the bizarre, magazine-ad pose Miller’s drawn her in), and on the other, you have Superman’s chest, which is where his logo is. Honestly, had it not been for the star-spangled skirt, I would not have been able to even guess that that was Wonder Woman. So, who’s lost their identity on this one?
But Karen didn’t stop there. She felt it was important to have a visual depiction of just what an equally objectifying comic-book cover would look like for various male superheroes, just to drive the point home. And I think she’s done quite well.
Go have a look.
H/T tigtog.
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Would there be significant shrinkage on Aquaman’s package, given his travels in the ice-cold waters of the Northern Atlantic?
I dunno about Aquaman, but Green Lantern’s package is doing just fine.
Did you notice where Frank Miller signed his initials on the Wonder Woman drawing?
I think the extra gold piping on Supe’s briefs is the funniest of those. Meanwhile, the taint shot on Green Lantern reminds me of those “panty shots” you see in a lot of Japanese cartoons.
I’m afraid that this is one civilization (comic book artists and enthusiasts) that you may want to invoke the Feminist Prime Directive on. And, to be fair to Mr. Miller, Wonder Woman could simply be infiltrating a Nazi strip club under the watchful eye of Lyle Waggoner.
I think they actually need to do that Batman cover.
I’d buy it.
That Green Lantern cover is hot. And the link to the real Wolverine cover? Yum.
Frank Miller sure does love his T&A, but y’know, he totally objectifies male bodies as well. I mean, his male characters have more voice, and more self-hood, no doubt, but they also get seriously beefcaked. Hartigan hanging in naked bondage with lots of dick shots and such. Lots. Of. Dick. Shots. So I sit there with my Sin City graphic novels (I confess, shoot me now) and I wonder if this is pure sexism, or if this is an adolescent boy playing all erotic fun all over his artwork in a very perverse and equal opportunity way.
So, I get a little defensive when people spout off about fanboys and geeks, since I’m married to one and most of my friends fit into this category. How many comic books have you read? What kind did you read? What, exactly, do you fucking know about comic books? Thinking you know something because you watch a cartoon once is the equivalent of thinking you know everything about feminism because you read a Wikipedia article about it. You’ve looked at 3 comic books, and dismissed an entire genre and everybody who might possibly enjoy it. Maybe if you could be bothered to give geeks the fucking time of day, you would learn something before you start shooting your mouth off. But we’re icky and weird and obsessed with Star Wars, so it’s better to judge from afar and laugh uncomfortably when we’re beat up by the football team.
Nymph, what the heck?
I’m a comic book geek and female, and I can say that Frank Miller’s cover was insulting to my intelligence and definitely not designed to cater to my tastes as a potential customer. It is stupid, it is insulting.
The thing that goes through my mind the most in a comic book shop is “Boobs don’t work that way!”. Does Power Girl really need a circular boob window in her top? Does Super Girl really need a miniskirt brief enough to be a festive belt? Wedgie machines are what a lot of female costumes are and tops that provide no coverage, no support, and I’m supposed to think that these are fighting uniforms? Or am “I” as a comic book reader and coded as male, supposed to appreciate the various angles that an illustrator can draw cleavage of the bust and butt kind?
Really. How can Miller’s cover in all it’s obvious cheesecakery compare to the practicality of Batgirl’s costume, which is full coverage? What about Donna Troy’s costumes?
And you get mad just because some people point out that the comic book industry isn’t helping itself by letting illustrators think with their lower heads? They’re being called out and I’d like some equal opportunity cheesecake. I want men’s costumes like Cosmic Boy’s 1970’s bustier and briefs set. I get that, and that’s a sign that everyone’s being objectified, maybe even ironically.
But it’s not going to happen and that’s the annoying thing.
I *love* the Green Lantern pic.
I’m not sure who you’re yelling at Nymphalidae.
I have over ten longboxes of comics from nearly twenty years in comic fandom. And this is my fandom, not any husband’s or boyfriend’s.
The folks who drew those pictures were comic fans, and I recognize many of the first comments in the LJ post as fellow comic fen.
I enjoy comic books very much, but that doesn’t mean I’m blind to their flaws.
BTW, my original reason for commenting (before I got distracted by Nymphalidae’s remarks) was Teresa Nielsen Hayden takes on the Frank Miller cover (she’s one of the editors of Tor, and thus also well-versed in fandom)
Some funny stuff
Frank Miller makes me SO ANGRY. I’ve written about his many evils before, but every time I see something about him I just lose my temper again. His attitude (well… and Infinite Crisis) made me quit reading comic books. He has no respect for women, and he’s a crappy writer. (I liked Dark Knight Returns, but he hasn’t written anything decent since then.)
My best friend’s a comic book geek, so I know enough to get by.
This cracked me up.
Lis – it’s good you’re a fangirl, there aren’t nearly enough of us. Comic books aren’t my area of geekdom, I prefer straight up sci-fi novels. I was under the impression that the way women (and everybody else) were drawn in comic books was just the style of art. And there are comics where the art style is different and thus the women are drawn differently.
I don’t know enough about Frank Miller to know if he hates women. If you’re looking for a sexist asshole, look at Larry Niven.
you stopped reading comic books just because Frank Miller is an asshat? that’s just sad, not to mention a bit silly. are you going to stop watching movies because Sin City got made?
there’s been quite a number of worthwhile works published in the comix world lately. you’ve been missing out.
Green Lantern is delicious. All of them are pretty fine. I had a pic of one of my husbands that resembled the Batman…. :)
I’m a comic fan too, but I never read DC, so I have no idea who Frank Miller is besides “That one guy that did Dark Knight Returns?”. And I used to work in a comic book store.
I have less problem with most of marvels covers because I don’t buy a lot of the superhero stuff besides X-Men and Spidey, and X men in particular tends to avoid butt/crotch shots all together. They just also have a better track reccord in my opinion of showing whole bodies. DC does this weird thing where they only show parts of people, male or female, more often. Marvel might have a woman with a ton of clevage on the cover, but you’ll probably see her from the torso up, not just a breast shot or a breasts and face. At least that is my opinion, not really based on any statistics between the two companies, just based on my experiance. Where I worked, the most mysoginistic creepy creeps were huge DC fans and the actual nice guys were into marvel.
Anti-kudos for Karen and Zuzu for advancing the patriarchy. Recognize these techniques? Infantilizing the victims? Distilling sexuality to a purely mechanical basis? The crotch is not the only body part involved in men having sex.
I mean, isn’t that exactly what the patriarchy advances about sex? That sex is all about penises, and the insertion of them into things?
“Who’s lost their identity”? Since everyone was able to tell that this was Wonder Woman, and since it’ll probably say “Wonder Woman” right on the masthead, looks like nobody.
It’s astounding how quickly people here turn on geeks. Sure, geeks aren’t immediate feminism allies. They’re in the unique position of being abused not only by patriarchy, but by the matriarchy, too. Seriously. Given how trivially easy it is to swing a geek over to the idea of gender equality and social justice, it’s amazing how dismissive some of the feminists here can be.
Geeks understand objectification, having been repeatedly objectified. They also understand symbolism, unlike many feminists, it seems. And they usually understand that it’s often more effective to work together against a common problem than to turn on potential allies, even though they’re easier targets. But, yeah, I suppose – sniping about geeks and their hobbies and interests is surely a lot easier than working towards economic equality, self-determination, and social justice.
That’s either some grade-A parody, or somebody ragged on geeks in their entirety in invisible font (spoiler-text?) and didn’t clue me the fuck in.
Yeah, but of course, what he meant by “stopped reading comic books” was “I put down the issue of ‘The Dark Knight Returns’ that was sitting on my buddy’s coffee table, which was the only comic book I’ve ever picked up.”
Oh, right. That’s why you’re judging an entire medium by one of its sub-genres?
Did you even know that they make comic books that aren’t about superheroes? Why is it when I read your post, I don’t think you did?
Lamia, if you were really a geek, you know about how armor works for females. Less is really more, which is why you can tank in a mail bikini.
But surely there are bigger problems to worry about than the reverse armor situation in comics and D&D.
I’m sorry, I guess I didn’t make it clear in my last post that my second quote is Lamia’s, and that’s who it is intended to be a reply to.
Norbizness, you might notice the ultra-condescending title of Zuzu’s post.
Anyway, I have a knee-jerk reaction when I hear the normals talk about me.
Fine. I read manga too, which is an entirely different, Japanese cannard of patriarchy when it comes to the depiction of females. And I read both shonen and shoujo genre of manga, if you want to further question my reading breadth.
There is an armor disparity that caters to heterosexual male oogling. This is a blog on feminism. The post was on how Miller’s cover art is an example of the way the industry objectifies women. And the industry does objectify women.
Nymph decides to throw a hissy fit about being slighted for a geek. Chet decides to question the depth of my geekness.
Both don’t actually address the fact that there are no people within the industry telling Miller to quit being such a blatant cheesecake artist. The industry still hires him, which is a form of condoning the continued production of such images.
Sure, you can ignore it. After all, it’s so simple, isn’t it? Better to whine about how everyone’s out to stomp on geeks. Instead of actually, you know, getting the point that it’s not cool for geeks to consume patriarchal bullshit in the form of objectifying more women characters than male characters.
I would quibble with the assertion that: “Geeks understand objectification, having been repeatedly objectified” And by “quibble” I mean laugh uproariously. As a young, relatively attractive female geek, allow me to clarify something. Men do not understand what it feels like to be objectified in this way (as is the entire point of the fake comic covers: we are all horrifyed and entertained by the blatant package action, and much this never really happens, even in “women only” mediums) Also, the objectification and subjugation of females is an age-old, wide-spread human practice dating back thousands of years. Geeks are a new social group, and suffer different, far less socially ingrained stigmatization. The discrimination geeks face is also less violent and while it’s certainly hurtfull for someone to suggest that one is physically helpless or deserving of less social respect because of aesthetics, these are just two (relatively) minor stigmatizations that effect ALL women EVERY day. Additionally, comic books and video games do not portray males and females in equal lights at all. (eg. the only playable female character in the newest Dragon Quest game uses “sex appeal” as her special ability, only men take up arms and fight in Kingdom Hearts 1 or 2, when Kairi insists that she come along to help, Sora informs her “You’d kinda get in the way” etc) To claim that these geek mediums portray appropriate or accurate stereotypes, one would be perscribing to the fundamental understanding that women are not equally useful as humans, and are primarily for sex. That is not to say that i abandon these mediums, because (as many feminists I think can attest) there would simply be nothing in the mainstream media that i COULD enjoy. We learn to put it out of our minds evertime we see one of the millions of sexually debasing images and stereotypes surrounding us. I suggest the geeks not get up in arms about our supposed betrayal, and aknowledge that their (our) entertainment is as tainted with mysogeny as just about everything else made my the mass media. Really, it’s not personal.
“But, yeah, I suppose – sniping about geeks and their hobbies and interests is surely a lot easier than working towards economic equality, self-determination, and social justice.” That’s pure comedy btw. If you would like to suggest that these “hobbies and interests” of de-valuing women as sex objects do not deserve the attention of feminsts, I suggest you re-consider what feminism means to you.
“So, I get a little defensive when people spout off about fanboys and geeks, since I’m married to one and most of my friends fit into this category. How many comic books have you read? What kind did you read? What, exactly, do you fucking know about comic books?”
I have a shelf full of TPBs, I read pretty much everything from Alan Moore to Alison Bechdel, from Joe Sacco to Mike Carey and I have to fully agree with Zuzu that:
a) The cheesecake cover was insulting, pointless and pretty much anatomically impossible.
and
b) The spoof beefcake was hilarious.
Do you want to take this outside?
EDIT: (as is the entire point of the fake comic covers: we are all horrifyed and entertained by the blatant package action, *BECAUSE* this never really happens, even in “women only” mediums)
Pardon me.
Am I the onlyl one who has no idea what they’re looking at when they look at the Wonder Woman thing? I mean, ok… butt and legs.. but is she being drawn as a black woman with a long gherri curl or something? And what’s with her top? Where are her arms??
I’d feel more offended if I weren’t so confused.
If I may offer – an insider’s take on Frank Miller and women, and what I’m pretty sure is the inspiration for the hilarious package shot covers.
This should have nothing to do with people who like comic books, as a stupid novel shouldn’t instantly prove all fans of novels have no taste. I love my comic books and hate stuff like this.
I DO like making fun of Frank Miller (as much as I do actually like his earlier stuff! shhh!)
No, Nymphalidae, fuck *you.*
Jesus. Take the pole out of your ass.
As if women can’t be obsessed with Star Wars (or be icky and weird, haha). My aforementioned comic book geek best friend and I are both obsessed with Star Wars.
We may also be icky and weird.
Oh, and Kim — yes, the drawing is awful.
Nymphalidae, I really cannot believe you’d say, “But surely there are bigger problems to worry about than the reverse armor situation in comics and D&D.” I’m a geek and a comics fangirl, and I love comics, so it hurts me when some comic artist or writer turns out to think girls are disposable window dressing. When I point this out to fanboys, they generally argue first a) that said comic respects women plenty, when cornered on this one, b) that I have no sense of humour, and finally c) that I ought to fight sexism elsewhere and leave them to their happy misogyny. Seriously, no. Not on.
I’ll object to the objectification of women where I find it, and I’m not going to wait until I get the pre-approved list of “suitable for criticism by feminists” targets.
Put me down as another geekgirl who cheered Karen’s work because I love comics and geekboys, not because I hate them.
I seriously loved DC and Marvel comics as a teen. I couldn’t afford to buy many, but my best friends’ elder brother was a big fan with a big collection and I read them all over at their place. Yet once I realised just how empty sexbot the portrayals of the superfemales were, I could hardly look at them anymore.
Seriously, there are ways to draw women that appeal to the sexdrives of young male geeks without objectifying them to the point that you lose most of the female fan base over the age of 17. Surely the comics publishers would like to sell more copies? So why alienate half their potential audience?
Declaring fanboys off-limits to criticism of their privilege because they’re your friends leads to declaring liberal men off-limits for the same thing. Why *shouldn’t* we turn the mirror back on ourselves, even if we don’t think we’ll like what we see?
Oh, and as if it makes one fucking bit of difference, I was very into the X-Men in high school and college, in the mid-to-late 80s, long before they became a big deal. DC never appealed to me.
Nymphalidae,
I thought your kind of attitude was something the fanboys over at the DC boards had trademarked.
I’m a geek. I like SF, I like comics, I like fantasy, I can quote Firefly off the top of my head and will do so in public. I wear thinkGeek shirts and glasses, go to conventions, and am studying astrophysics. As for being a comics geek specifically, I read more than 40 titles a month between DC, Marvel, Image and Vertigo, and that’s not counting the indie TPBs that litter my shelves. I’ve read backissues, collect action figures, *play* with my action figures and can decipher the history of Donna Troy.
Frankly? My geek-penis is bigger than your geek-penis.
I’m such a geek that I willingly spend time on the DC boards, which is where I made the comment that was quoted by Karen in her satire post. If you think my anger at the posters on the boards is due to them being geeks, you’re sadly fucking mistaken.
It’s simple: if you’re a sexist asshole, you don’t get a pass for being the same brand of dork I am. And that goes for comic book geeks, for SF geeks, for fantasy geeks and for any other species of geek I might interact with.
That’s true, zuzu. Thinking a bit more about how we protray women could make a lot of depictions more interesting and more varied. If we point out “why does she have to be in that ridiculous position?”, it’s a whole lot more likely to make people say “hmm”, then not saying anything. I have to admit that while manga or independant US comics are not utopias of feminism, at least I can find some without such such horrible depictions of women.
I don’t read the Big Two, because yea, I’d rather read a story about women who aren’t sexbots all the time. Oh yea, and I hate superheroes.
It’s simple: if you’re a sexist asshole, you don’t get a pass for being the same brand of dork I am. And that goes for comic book geeks, for SF geeks, for fantasy geeks and for any other species of geek I might interact with.
SFX: Applause, foot-stomping.
We can mock the cover without having any previous knowledge of the entire history of comics and geekdom, because it takes a purportedly strong and independent woman and reduces her to a collection of scantily clad and anatomically awkward body parts.
I could rattle off my geek history, but it’s not relevant to the discussion at all. What is relevant is the reductio ad libidinem that’s so prevalent in comics, and that many of the fans don’t bat an eye. I blame the Patriarchy.
…wait, wrong blog! *g*
Frankly, I’m pissed on behalf of Wonder Woman. She deserves better than this piece of shit.
Must… resist.. shameless self-promotion and attention seeking…
Oh, I can’t. I’m sorry, zuzu.
Look, I notice there’s a bunch of comic-book reading Feminists on this thread that I’ve never run across before, and for the past four months or so a friend and I have been collecting articles on comic books and Feminism for our link-blog When Fangirls Attack, if any of you have any articles (written by you or just ones you’ve found) you think are worth reading, please drop by and hit one of the contact links. Send me whatever you’ve got — Feminist or Antifeminist — on the subject, so long as it hasn’t already been linked on the site.
Also, feel free to peruse the links there at your leisure. There’s a lot of stuff on this subject there, and some tangentially related subjects.
“Additionally, comic books and video games do not portray males and females in equal lights at all. (eg. the only playable female character in the newest Dragon Quest game uses “sex appeal” as her special ability, only men take up arms and fight in Kingdom Hearts 1 or 2, when Kairi insists that she come along to help, Sora informs her “You’d kinda get in the way” etc)”
I’ll admit to not knowing a lot about comic books, so I’m glad you brought up the video game side of geekdom. Your comment about Jessica of Dragon Quest made me laugh–remember also that every time she cracks her whip to attack her boobies do a little dance, and she is also the only character who you can buy special armor for to change her appearance, like the “Magic Bikini.” One of the things that drives me nuts about dungeon crawlers like Champions of Norrath or Baldur’s Gate is how the female characters have enormous bouncing chests even when you have them equipped with full-plate armor. You’d think by that point those puppies would be strapped down pretty good. I’ve gotten to the point where I have to simply laugh and mock it, though.
It’s interesting when I read about geek misogyny. I know it exists, and I guess I have met some, but all the guy geeks I hang out with mock and exhibit disdain for the depictions of women in their favorite media, too. I’m not so self-centered to think that they are all doing it just to impress me, since a lot of them are in committed relationships with close female friends.
Just a comment about video games since Blitzgal brought it up. As a middle aged man trying desperately to avoid a full on mid life crisis I bought an X-box to play games with my nephew (and to amuse myself), but the one thing that struck me was the rendering of women especially in Baulder’s gate and some of the sports games where they would show a shot of a cheerleading squad. As Blitzgal said that renderings of the female characters all feature improbably proportioned breasts with canyons of décolleté that undulated hypnotically in gravity defying ways and I find it insulting.
Now I don’t a moral problem with drawing, looking at, fantasizing about beautiful women, but these renderings struck me as patronizing and jejune. I felt as if my intelligence was being insulted by having it shoved down my throat. As if the only way a male can enjoy a good action adventure yarn is to include gratuitous depictions of Bambi-the-land-nymph type characters. Not to mention that fact that the male characters are covered head to toe in plate armor and the woman wear tin foil bikinis. It is an insult and frankly there are games that are very popular, featuring strong well draw characters (like beyond good and evil) that prove that you really don’t need to resort to that sort of thing to sell a game.
In short, I resent the fact that these content providers see all men as so stupid and sophomoric as to require over the top, blatant pandering to sell a book or game is not respecting me as a man (aside from the more obvious issue of respecting women). This does not mean that I am above seeking out blatant sexual content designed to turn me on or arouse my prurient interests, but when I do that I’m looking for something specific. When I play a game, sure it’s only a game, but like in movies or books, if the content distracts from the main attraction then it simply become boring. I wnat my games to have a hint of reality and I want my smut to be intelligent. Is that too much to ask?
Besides any woman with an athletic body, wearing appropriate athletic wear (which is what I envision a super hero costume to be) is “hot” without having to insult the consumer; male of female.
Blitzgal: It’s interesting when I read about geek misogyny. I know it exists, and I guess I have met some, but all the guy geeks I hang out with mock and exhibit disdain for the depictions of women in their favorite media, too.
That’s generally my experience as well, so why the disparity between what the fanboys say and what the publishers push?
So right about Larry Niven. I am also a scifi geek and I can’t stand how women are portrayed in a lot of the genre. Niven wins the prize though. Every female character is a sexual fantasy of his. Dumb, attractive and eager to sleep with
Larrythe main character.Is she drawn as a black woman with a long gherri curl…are you fucking serious? If so, I really, REALLY need to understand where you came up with the idea that this drawing would be of a black woman. Please. Share your thought process with me.
Oh, don’t apologize. I’ve found some great stuff through blogwhoring. Just as long as it’s on-topic.
To me, it looks like she’s maybe wearing a skimpy purple top with an exposed breast (that weird lump in the top corner). Although the more I look at it, the less sense the picture makes. I don’t know what to do with that weird angled part beneath the breast.
And the only versions of WW I know is Lynda Carter and SuperFriends, so hair reaching down her back is another bit of confusion. Looking at it in conjunction with the tacky skirt and tights gave me an 80’s flashback, hence gherri curl. Ta-dah! My mind is amazing.
All these mentions of Jessica, and yet no one has brought up ‘puff puff’…which as far as we could tell was an ability that involved squashing cleavage together, whispering ‘puff puff’…and then somehow hurting the enemy…it cut away to like birds and trees and stuff an then back to the guys taking damage, so who knows what was going on in between. That game was over the top lame on the Jessica count…
Do we think that’s better or worse than having violent mood swings be your superpower?
Why the hell don’t they just call her PMS Girl? Sheesh!
Yeah, the puff-puff thing is so freakin’ bizarre. I’ve decided that it’s a blow job reference. Although at one point in the game you can find a secret puff-puff parlor in which a girl rubs Slimes on your head…God, I am such a dork for knowing these things.
Is there any way one could draw Wonder Woman that wouldn’t be an objectification? I mean, I look at her design.
Miller’s been a joke for a long time now. Dark Knight Returns was a blast (if very, very troubling in places) and some of the Sin City stories were fun, but he hasn’t produced anything interesting in years (and his art and plotting get worse with every new project. You could see it deteriorating even between issues of the Dark Knight Strikes Again). Why bother with him anymore? Guys like Grant Morrison, Alan Moore, the guys who do Street Angel, and even Brian Michael Bendis are still finding ways to make superheroes halfway entertaining without 12-year-old-boy masturbation fantasies, and there’s lots of great non-cape stuff out there as well.
Elfwood is a huge sf/fantasy art site and has of course its share of styrofoam tits but there are many talented and cool artists too.
*smiles at zuzu* Thanks!
Well, let’s compare and contrast. Take a look at the cover for June’s WW relaunch and compare to Frank Miller’s bit. Also, here’s some preview art and an interview with the artist.
Now, my expectations may be low because Terry Dodson is considered a “cheesecake artist” (I nearly screamed when I heard him assigned) but I was actually pleasantly surprised by these images. What do you guys think?
I really love this blog. I have no right to be here really — I’m white, male, english-speaking, Christian, hetrosexual, and college educated, making me part of the defacto protected species of North America. Despite my trespasser status, I still find this place too educational to leave alone.
Firstly, bravo Mael. Post #37 pretty much sums up my feelings about sexism in comics, although I think your geek credentials exceed my own.
Secondly, I don’t really see any reason for hardcore comic fans to get uptight about anything Zuzu has posted about this. Her original remarks are pretty specific about what and whom she’s critizing. Moreover, most of the responses to Zuzu’s original post are not making any blanket assumptions about the comic medium either.
Lastly, not all comics are alike. The superhero genre is rather tired in my opinion. If any of you ladies are interested in comics and want to read something different, I suggest you pick up something like Alias, Global Frequency, 100 Bullets, The Losers, Planetary, or maybe Y-The Last Man. Fantastic stuff.
Side note: If you think Dragon Quest is sexist, you should have seen Legend of Dragoon. That game was a serious piece of crap. It actually motivated me to write a long-winded article about women in games a lifetime ago.
Cheers.
It’s an improvement…but is there a reason she can’t have some kind of skirt/tights/shorts/pants? He says he’s tried to make the bottoms look more like a brief and less like a bikini panty, but that seems like a baby step to me.
Ragnell:
Ummm…quite nice. Still very sexy but well muscled and a bit fierce as any superhero should be. I note the absence of the cheesy red/white/blue motíf. Good eyes.
evil_fizz, I think the quote in Ragnell’s second link from Terry Dodson, the artist, really gets to what you’re asking.
The fans flip their shit every time a costume is changed. I remember when Superman went from the red and blue to a black and neon turquoise sort of color scheme. There were internet riots, practically. I agree that it’s a pain that Wonder Woman is in a swimsuit, basically, but that’s how she is. And frankly, the fact that she can kick ass and beat up anyone while wearing only a swimsuit and the armguards makes her more impressive to me.
I do admit, I really like the fact that she looks legitimately strong. Actual biceps on a woman!
Brian Michael Bendis!
Brian Michael Bendis!
Sorry, to geek out there, but Bendis is my favorite superhero writer. He manages to write superhero stories that actually keep my attention and make me think :-) I agree with whomever said that the superhero genre is tired, I’m out of it all together (from 20 superhero titles a month :-O ) except Ultimate Xmen and Ultimate Spidey. And most of that is Bendis :-)
If Brian Michael Bendis and Joss Whedon ever made an X-Men story, I might just die of geeker joy.
And speaking of the Joss, he is working on the Wonder Woman movie, so I’m looking forward to having the character in the hands of the guy who created Buffy/Firefly, took a lot of women’s studies classes in college and constantly praises his feminist mom, and explicitly designed Buffy to be a feminist figure :-)
Justin K: Absolutely, Frank Miller is a joke. Everyone knows it. So why is he still an industry superstar? Why is it that the comics industry and fandom can simultaneously acknowledge that Miller hates women with a batshit insane fury that has been ruining everything he’s done for the past ten years, and still give him the highest-profile work? Individual creators may be nutty misogynist assholes and that’s just the way they are, but why does everyone use that as an ‘explanation’, when the real question is: Why is that accepted and rewarded?
Not that I don’t know the answer, of course. But saying “that’s just how Frank Miller is” is the same as saying “Comics creators and fans think that violent woman-hating is just a lovable eccentricity, and certainly won’t keep you from maintaining the highest possible status in this community.” THAT–not the simple visual perception of sexist art–is what makes me, as a woman, feel unwelcome when I buy comics.
(This is, as is probably obvious, just as much a response to the LAST million times someone said that as to Justin in particular.)
Amen, Sarah.
Sarah Michelle Gellar should have assassinated that evil entity in The Grudge, in my opinion. :)
Is it wrong that when I saw the title I immediately thought you were just a little late to catch up with the head of the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund groping an artist at Mid-Ohio Con after she was thrown in the hotel swimming pool, and claiming alcohol based impairment as his defense?
Anyone interested in the intersection of comic book fandom and feminism might want to check out Monkey Crack Mary, who after one or seventeen too many jibes about the fate of the fourth, (female, brutally murdered in a highly sexualised fashion, not canonically given the credit due her) Robin, is setting up girl-wonder.org, a place for women who both enjoy comics and are pissed by the representation of women *in* comics.
The site’s going live in a couple of days, but the planning stages already indicate some awesome activism is brewing.
Say WHAT?! Do you have a link to this story?
Been collecting them since shortly after it started Laren –
When it first broke in December –
http://womenincomics.blogspot.com/2006/01/on-sexual-harassment-and-buzzcope.html
When the lady was named (I could have sworn I emailed you guys a link to this one)–
http://womenincomics.blogspot.com/2006/04/news.html
And since the guy’s name has come out –
http://womenincomics.blogspot.com/2006/05/5-2-06.html
http://womenincomics.blogspot.com/2006/05/more-scandal.html
http://womenincomics.blogspot.com/2006/05/may-3rd.html
Oh, and KPhoebe — Kalinara’s been following Mary’s stuff for a few days yet.
Sorry, thought I included the link before.
Ronee Garcia broke the story in vague terms here.
http://www.popcultureshock.com/features.php?id=1238
and in this one the victim was identified.
http://www.popcultureshock.com/features.php?id=1357
Commentors pootboy and Vex Machine are not winners.
A couple weeks after the identity of the victim was released the perp was named in Comics Journal
http://tcj.com/276/n_soma.html
Charles Brownstein’s version of what happened is here
http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=litg&article=2443
which mainly amounts to “I was drunk and playing around. It was harmless and I’m sorry that she was bothered by my attempts to pull her shirt off in the pool”
Redacted police report is at
http://www.columbuspolice.org/Reports/PublicReport.aspx?case=315859
http://www.comicsreporter.com/index.php/tracking_the_mid_ohio_incident_story/
has a large list of links to various comics folks blogs about the incident.
Note that because it never got to felony level assault there is no extradition being sought by the police. Friends of LuLu is the people to contact about what can be done legal wise since they are organizing the effort.
“Geeks understand objectification, having been repeatedly objectified.”
Geeks might think so. Nerds, however, are quite aware that there is a difference between “objectified” and “ridiculed.” They also understand that people laughing at you for playing D&D means that people are making fun of you, not that people are pretending you are an object, like a doll or a vase.
They actually did a run of Wonder Woman in the seventies that involved both changing her powers (they made her more of a karate chick than a superhero… that was lame) and changed her costume to an Emma Peel style jumpsuit. There was OUTRAGE! It was incredibly short lived.
According to wiki, some of the loudest voices calling for WW to be changed back came from feminist groups. Make of that what you will.
And St Ulfsten: My partner posts his art on Elfwood. I was going to provide a link, but he’s asked me not to. I think he’s a bit afraid that a coupel of pictures of women with swords might not be received too well.
I have spent more money on roleplaying books than I want to think about and spent more tie RPing than I also want to think about. I gave away four short boxes of comics, all collected after 1999 or so and still have three left. I regularly go to sf cons, and I have a standard Zatanna outfit that I wear. (The real Zatanna, the one with the tux top and fishnet bottom.) Do I have enough cred to speak on geek issues.
Male geeks do *not* get a free pass. Male geeks can be just as misogynistic as any other subgroup of males. I have seen male geeks change their behaviour because I, the lone girl, was there. I have seen male geeks belittle and degrade women either because they assumed the women didn’t know as much as they did or because they thoguht they could get away with because “it’s just a game.” I have seen male geeks be completely clueless as to how to treat a woman because she was the same as the males, except she had breasts, and they didn’t know how to cope. I have seen men fall over themselves to give extra privledges to the few women in the group, just because she was a woman.
So no, I don’t think it’s wrong to point out when male geeks f*ck up. They’re what keeps/has kept women away from comic books, roleplaying, video games, etc., etc. And a lot of the time, male geeks do learn, if only because many are smart enough to realize that the more women they treat as real human beings, the more women they have the possibility of meeting.
And out of curiousity, in terms of cheesecake, why has no one mentioned Witchblade? I’ve been told it’s a good title, but I can’t pick it up, because that woman is never more than an eigthth covered in any of her shots in the Witchblade. But her male counterpart, The Darkness? He doesn’t have to worry about catching cold in a strong breeze.
Is it possible to draw Wonder Woman in a non-cheesecake way? May I mention my secret crush Darwyn Cooke? His Wonder Woman in New Frontiers is gorgeous and sexy and never a joke. Of course, he got away with making some costume alterations.
Tech — Mainly because Witchblade and Vampirella are so far gone and considered hopeless that ragging on them immediately identifies you as a “newbie.”
Not to mention many people, like me, refused to pick up the damned book because of its cheesecakiness. I mean, every time she powered up her clothes got torn off. It was clear soft-porn and never worth deep examination. It jsut served, like all the other Image titles, as something to throw on the “General Example” pile when raging about who women are portrayed in comics.
Still, I have gotten on the Witchblade writer (after I’d been assured the book was reformed!) and Dan Jacobsen did a wonderful essay on Vampirella art. And in this podcast, about the 24-25th minute, he starts talking about how women creators are viewed, and how the female writer of Witchblade back in the nineties was featured in Wizard magazine. Actually, that whole podcast was pretty good and discussed a lot of women in comics stuff because he was crossing over with a female podcastor. Here’s a rundown with the topics timestamp.
There was supposed to be a link in my previous post.
I’ll try again
http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/n/e/nelson/kliche.jpg.html
I feel the same way about witchblade. Wont read it, the ‘reason’ she is half naked is her weapon/armour. But of course its not the real reason.
I play computer games, mostly rpgs, roleplaying games (tabletop) and read manga and comics. I am pretty regulary annoyed by the industrys. In manga, while it has dealt with some subjects much much better than the big two of american comics (more types of people, lesbians, gay, more topics) it also deal with some far worse (male rape, panty shots, fan service, underage sex).
[side note: 'womens romence' books like mills and boon annoy me for the same reason as about every 4 one has a women being convienced and overpowered into sex. blah. male or female the choice is yours and whoever doesnt respect that deserves to be shot.]
But in manga you can avoid this rubbish. In the big two any comic you pick up will have something that annoys you. The female characters not talking to each other. Women not wearing armour. Not wearing any sort of practical clothes. I stopped reading marvel because I complete started hating them for exploting their characters, and not just in this way. They would break a character just for a storyline, making characters do things they clearly wouldnt. It really really annoyed me. So I stopped reading them and start reading other things, books and manga and manhawa.
In computer games the crap you come across is also sickening at times. Good games with half dressed women.
Oh and my pet peeve that I personally stake people for.
The female character is faster but weaker and the male character is slower but stronger….
I cant describe how much that annoys me. What so hard about 3 options male and female, high dex/low str mid dex/mid str high str/low dex. Btw I am a programmer so I do have an idea of the work involved.
I the tabletop games I run. Everyone wears armour. You are half naked = you are dead. Dont be stupid. Men and women fight, lie, cheat, love, talk and work. Its not that hard to do. Put some men in power, put some women in power, have the majority in power older as they have more experience. People who do risky jobs tend to be younger as its risky (doh), managers are often older as its a safer job.
So I dont see why Im not reading or playing this. Women heros, male heros, girl heros, boy heros which a mixed bunch of supporting characters and love interests. Its not that hard to do.
Btw the way we came up with a word based on frank millers comics
‘filler’ a half dressed person who mixes up being a solo/fighter with a hooker.
Its based on the women who hang off the big strong mens arms and point guns but dont know how to use them.
That’s why I loved the Maid in Top Ten: The Forty-Niners. She got to wear ARMOR. Real Knight’s armor, not a chainmail bikini.
Yeah, if women could just be dressed for battle when they’re actually doing battle (and my tabletop groups have also always done “everyone wears armor”), I’d be fine with them looking cheesecakey (preferably with some corresponding beefcake pictures as well) in situations where it would be realistic for them to doff the battle clothes and wear something more sexy.
I know, that’s what drove me nuts about one of the new comics a couple weeks ago. It’s a male character whp normally he gets a cheesecakey artist who draws him looking boyishly cute, puts him in suggestively perilous situations, and throws in a lot of shots of his backside. Well, I guess me and my blog-friends spent too much time making jokes about this, because it’s gone now! This new artist saved all his cheesecake for the women in the book. It was irritating. I don’t care if she flies, a bounty hunter shouldn’t arch her back all pinup-like that in battle.
On the other hand – the people who are threatening to stuff you into your locker unless you do your homework, because you wear glasses and play D&D, and therefore must be smart (because you’re sure as hell not good-looking) are pretending you’re an object – some kind of genius object.
You’re certainly not being credited with having feelings, hopes, desires, and all the rest that makes up a human being. Sounds like objectification to me.
Look, I don’t even believe that Frank Miller drew that. It looks like shit. It looks like some crap somebody drew in MS Paint. No idiot is going to put that on the cover of their comic book. If it’s real, let’s get a shot of that in a comic book store or something.
Chet,
it’s the cover to All Star Batman and Robin #6, which will be on sale in July. If you still refuse to believe it, maybe you should check out the DC website. I’m sure that given all the hype re: omg our God Miller is pencilling the covers!!!!1! they’re not, actually, kidding about it.
Chet, maybe you got stuffed into lockers because you’re annoying.
Gawd.
That’s truly astounding. In a bad way, I mean. July doesn’t look so bad.
Maybe you lose arguments all the time because you don’t know how to do anything but attack your opponent.
Er, that cover IS July. June is what I meant.
The more I think about this, the more surprised I am that Zuzu would say it. Can you imagine her reaction if somebody had said something like this to a woman? “Maybe you got raped because you’re a bitch.”
Truly amazing. I was under the impression that a person’s views and attitudes and arguments were never justification for violence against their person, but apparently that only applies to women?
Well, Chet, given that you seem to think that the impetus for your getting beaten up in school was that you were being objectified for your geekery, I threw an alternate explanation out there. In either case, the explanation depends on the perceptions of those who were doing the attacking — you insist it was objectification of geeks. I posited that those who preyed on you found you annoying as well as a soft target.
Either way, it does not excuse or justify the violence, simply explains it. Your theory — that you were abused because you were a geek — is subject to the same criticism you level at mine, that it appears to place the burden on the person being beaten up to avoid the violence, in the case of your theory, to stop being a geek.
Where you run into additional problems is your insistence that because you were subject to ridicule, harassment and violence for your geekery, that all geeks everywhere should be exempted from criticism for their objectification of women, their misogyny, or other issues.
I’m surprised you’re surprised, frankly. Haven’t you noticed I’m a cranky bitch?
“some kind of genius object”
Dude – dolls and tea-cups don’t think.
The word you are looking for is sub-human, de-humanized, or any of it’s synonyms.
If they are punishing you for being different, they are being assholes – and are proabably treating you as non-human in the process. That doesn’t mean, however, they are necessarily treating you as an object.
If they are reacting exclusively to physical attributes that are completely beyond your control, then you are being objectified.
In other words – the kids who called me four-eyes because I had glasses were just being mean. They didn’t call me four-eyes because they saw I had glasses and decided they hated me – they wanted to make me feel small (for whatever reason) and chose a physical attribute as their starting point. They were just as likely to make up rhymes with my name or call me a nerd because I did well in school. Such ridicule is meant to say “you don’t matter”. You are less than us, you are not really a person.
The jackasses that yell at me as I walk down the street – no matter what I’m wearing – simply because I have DD’s – That’s fucking objectification. The point is not to upset me (although that’s a nice bonus) so much as it is to let me know that I only matter as an object. It goes beyond them saying that I don’t matter; the problem is that my body does, but I don’t.
Take it from someone whose been both objectified and ridiculed – they aren’t the same thing.
“If you still refuse to believe it, maybe you should check out the DC website. ”
Oh, but Mael, Chet can’t possibly be wrong.
Is it going to be possible for you to actually address arguments? All the ad hominem gets a little boring after a while. Do you need me to restate my points, or something?
Is this how it works in your legal office? I ask because I don’t know. Do you just file motions or whatever that say “the plaintiff is entitled to judgement because the defendant has a big stupid doo-doo head?”
The personal attacks should really come to an end, I guess is what I’m saying. If you don’t think I’m worth the time and effort to apply your expansive intellect, the rest of us are trying to have a conversation here, ok?
Actually what I had noticed is that you’re a great writer and a sharp thinker, which is why I started reading your blog in the first place. Which is why I find your spittle-flecked playground tactics so disappointing. Whatever, though. You’re hardly under any obligation to live up to my standards, or something. It’s your blog.
Objectified is a synonym for de-humanized. I mean I’m hardly proposing that geeks are being rendered as animals, or something.
Like, say, physical unattractiveness? Lack of coordination? Poor eyesight? Acne?
Yeah. An object.
I don’t see the difference. They don’t like you, they want to upset you, they use a physical attribute as the lever to do so. I honestly don’t see the point of this hair-splitting about who’s the bigger victim. What’s the deal here? That, because you’re a woman, there couldn’t possibly be a man who has it as bad as you?
And take it from a geek who was objectified. It can happen, and does.
Chet,
if you walked into the street right now, what is the probability that you will be publicly insulted because of your glasses, your acne, your physical unattractiveness or your lack of coordination? What is the probability that random men will grab your arm and stop you to make sure you listen to what they have to say, which will invariably be a comment on your glasses, your acne, your physical unattractiveness or your lack of coordination? What is the probability that drunken men will see it fit to approach you because of your glasses, your acne, your physical unattractiveness or your lack of coordination?
Let me guess. Pretty damn low.
Guess what most women have to deal with on a daily basis?
Also, please keep in mind that not only does our plight not end with high school, the members of your in-group or similar (geeks, nerds, dorks of all species) did not blame you for the actions of those who ridiculed you. Women get blamed for getting harrassed way too often, both by other women and by members of our social in-group (male geeks/nerds/dorks in this case, who might not only blame us but in some cases compound to the harrassment.)
Please, in the future refrain from equating the social awkwardness that comes with being a high school outcast with systematic misogyny and sexism. Until you walk a mile in our shoes and realise that women fear this kind of objectification for most of their lives, you’re not going to understand where we’re coming from.
Chet: I think you make a lot of valid points on this thread. The counter-arguments against you have been mostly unpersuasive, to my mind. They seem to be made primarily to buttress the idea that only women suffer gender penalties, and only men have gender privileges (and all men have these privileges), which I think is just blatantly untrue.
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