Marianne commented on At Risk:
I read this book thinking it would be sort of a funny satire-type thing, not a serious book giving serious advice about eating and nutrition….and it turns out it is not really either thing. I read the entire book, and what it actually is about is pushing a completely vegan diet. I’m not sure the motivation of the authors was good nutrition or even diet or weight loss at all, their agenda was getting people to stop eating meat and dairy. I can’t remember how much time they spent on encouraging exercise, but I don’t think it was much. The majority of the book spouts scientific facts about meat and dairy and why neither thing is any good for anyone. Agree or disagree (I myself didn’t find it all that helpful), but it’s NOT a book about diet or exercise.
This is a fair criticism of my post: I did not make explicit the vegan agenda–not to use a loaded term or anything–that makes up a large portion of the book. (Actually, it’s not just veganism. You have to buy vegan organic foods, and they give you a list of recommended brands, many of which this veganophile foodie in the greenest finickiest foodiest city on the planet has never heard of.) There are volumes that could be written about the attitudes towards bodies exhibited in that book. I wanted to tackle one particular aspect from a personal angle.
Also, I have a healthy respect for veganism when it’s adopted for political or health reasons by people who seem not to hate themselves or others. I’ve met my share of Savonarolic vegans, but their counterparts are not exactly scarce amongst the omnivores either–and as a recovering anorexic omnivore, I recognize the pathological attitude as one that can attach to virtually any dietary program. While I have never met any in person, I know there were Atkins fanatics who derived sanctimonious pleasure from abstaining from tortilla chips and strawberry jam.
I should point out, though, that veganism can exacerbate the threat posed by eating as punishment. Veganism in an omivorous culture is not a casual committment. It’s feasible, but it requires planning and dietary education. If you aren’t paying informed attention, it’s really easy to cheat yourself of vital nutrients, and to create deficiencies that you might not notice immediately. Healthy veganism is incompatible with a philosophy of deprivation. Surviving as vegan means assiduously replacing all those foods that are no longer on your menu, frequently with rich substitutes. Anorexics in particular have a tendency to confuse “emaciated” with “fit,” and cannot be trusted to worry about red flags like dizzy spells.
While I agree that this book is very pro-veganism, it is pushing veganism in a “healthy” “eating” way. Veganism is a diet, both in the technical sense and in the fatphobic sense, if the people telling you to be vegan are telling you to avoid cheese because of teh FAT!1!!, which will make you teh lardass. These vegans are taking advantage of a poisonous phobic attitude towards food, nourishment, and (female) human bodies in order to get women to reject meat and dairy, not encouraging them to become political agents with respect to their consumerist habits. It is possible that this is a calculated attempt to exploit body-hatred in order to spare the pilloried chickens, rather than veganism for fatphobia’s sake. Given the base level of constraint advocated by other diet books, I see no reason to assume that.
There’s also a punitive attempt to impose control and responsibility where it might not be possible. It’s sort of like the difference between, say, making pregnant women into self-advocates and telling pregnant women that a glass of red wine in the second trimester will cause their children to be born without heads. What I reacted to most strongly was the undertone of purity that is anti-human. That type of perfection is an unattainable goal, and therefore an end in itself. The point is not to achieve it, but to fail and make oneself miserable in the attempt.



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It’s all but impossible to live a perfectly vegan lifestyle, considering how many animal byproducts are used surreptitiously in the food and cosmetics industry, so I think you’re on to something with the unattainable goal. I know plenty of healthy vegans who don’t sweat the refined sugar or catsup (it’s easy to eat vegan in a big city with lots of options), but too often veganism attracts the pathological self-deniers (which plays into the cultural fear of vegans – what’s there to be afraid of? hippies?)
I don’t think veganism has to be a fatphobic “diet.” I know chubby vegans – I’m only veganish (my dad grew up on a dairy farm, so it’s hard to give it up), but I eat fattening vegan food all the time. Avacados, sugar, and fried tofu haven’t managed to make me skinny yet…
The funny thing is, I developed a low tolerance for meat while pregnant and still have it now that the boy is born. Used to love it. Diet is so fecking mysterious.
Oh, and I suddenly have a craving for tortilla chips with strawberry jam…
I wanted to jump in with a vegan perspective. I completely agree that a perfectly vegan lifestyle is a practically unattainable goal. Often that very fact is used by omnivores to beat us with the “you can never *really* be vegan, you know, so you’re just a big hypocrite” stick. (Which I detect none of here, let me hasten to add!) And so many new vegans fall in to the self-denial trap, able to find fulfillment only in abnegation, just as many ED sufferes do. What I see represented less (perhaps because it’s difficult to express without sounding judgemental? I’m not sure) is the joy that can be found in striving for perfection. The greatest gift I’ve gotten out of becoming vegan is learning to accept my own imperfections and mistakes with good grace, and to take joy in whatever positive contribution I can make. I struggle with it, but the scales are beginning to tip. Instead of beating myself up for eating something non-vegan without reading the label carefully enough, I simply mark that off the list of “edible things” in my head. I try to think instead of the suffering I have conciously not caused that day, and be happy with that. I feel like I’m actively working to make myself the kind of person I admire, and that is a very good feeling. It’s the same feeling I get when I stand up to someone who has made a sexist/racist/classist remark to me, or in my hearing. I feel, as cliched as the word has become, empowered. I begin to truly believe in my own moral agency, and I think it’s made me a more confident person and feminist, because I feel easy in my own mind about my choices, which makes me confident in defending them.
…and I see that I’ve written a novella, rather than a comment, so I’ll save the rest for any ensuing discussion that might… ensue.
One last thing. Thank you thank you thank you to all the Feministe contributors. Along with Pandagon, Feministing, and all the other usual suspects, you lot have done more to further my education and give me the tools to examine the world around me than any other force in my life. I blame you entirely for the obnoxious, uppity, outspoken woman I’ve become. I’ve outraged old men, used to being listened to unquestioningly, and had younger women look at me with wonder and tell me they could never be so brave. And I’ve given them your URLs. Just so you know, you truly are changing minds and lives.
what a nice comment. I ditto, and thank hornet queen for spreading some appreciation around.
I was a vegan for several years.
I started off on a no-protein diet, as a punishment for myself because I couldn’t bring myself to cut a chunk of flesh from my hips. I was aware enough to realise that no-protein would weaken me to the point of hospitalisation in a very short time, so I managed to convince myself that no-animal would be a better challenge. I learned a lot about food and nutrition, and when I was ready, went back to being an omnivore.
Aw, thanks, Hornet Queen! (And Other Ryan!) That’s so sweet!
And do feel free to write novels here in comments. I’m more of a harm-reduction veggie, so it’s interesting to hear.
Nick: Good on you (and good to hear from you). I know a few people, actually, who’ve managed to fit veganism and vegetarianism into recovery plans. Like other ryan said, there are opportunities for feasting. I’ve made some inroads towards healthy-foody eating; my gut feeling is that any broad restriction would (a) be a great opportunity to start hating myself and (b) make it far too easy for me to simply deprive myself of nourishment. Doesn’t seem like such a good idea for now.
I’m interested in the fact that they singled out yogurt as a Very Bad Food. If I had to cut back to only one animal product, I’m thinking yogurt would have to be it, because it’s so good for you. Seriously, just a little bit cures digestion problems and keeps the Organ That Shall Not Be Named By Dr. Mike Adams in good working order.
I have no idea whether there’s any soy-based equivalent for keeping the ol’ hoo ha in good working order, but yeah. To be fair, it wasn’t yogurt so much as everything that comes out of a cow. But yogurt was included and mentioned.
Well, it’s not the yogurt in and of itself, it’s the bacteria in the yogurt that do good things for the hoo-hah. Which also makes yogurt digestible even for the lactose intolerant.
Right. I just have no idea how that works in the vegan equivalent of yogurt. Can the same cultures do the same things to soy?
Well, according to the Silk soy yogurt page, they have 6 live and active cultures, which likely means acidophilus and the like.
I can’t say I care for soy yogurt, though. Doesn’t taste right.
I have a problem with people pushing pseudo-science to make money. Veganism is fine, but many of these diet plans and “health foods” and whatnot are just bullshit. I’m not any kind of nutritionist (she said, eating Oreos), but I do know that the chlorophyll in wheatgrass isn’t likely to do anything for those of us who don’t photosynthesize.
The problem is, we don’t educate people well enough to protect them from bullshit. Some people simply lack the mental capacity for skepticism, but some are so open-minded all their brains have fallen out. As such, large numbers of people pay money to astrologers, faith healers, and other purveyers of bullshit.
Heh. Or that eating an Oreo will make you a diabetic. The other problem with this is that it obscures some of the political aspects of veganism that are both right on and much easier to defend without resorting to flat-out lies about dietary threats.
I think, too, that consumerism teaches a kind of uncritical desperation–to women about their bodies in particular. You are a failure, and you need this, which will make you a success. After a couple decades of that, Gee, maybe I shouldn’t ever eat refined sugar again becomes reflexive.
Cultures living in curdled soymilk do indeed do the same job of keeping your hoo-hah happy, if my own happy hoo-hah is any indication. (and now I’m going to try very hard to forget I ever wrote that sentence) And personally, I prefer soy yoghurt. I like how sweet it is. There’s something about that oddly wheat-y sweetness that soymilk gives things, that I really like.
Nymphalidae: Preach it. Psuedoscience and it’s evil twin Mad Science (I made it in the lab! Let’s put it in food! Why? Because we can make more money!) are the banes of our society. Neither of them give people the tools (or the foods) they need to eat well and stay healthy, and it’s a damn shame. It should just not be this difficult for humans to feed themselves.
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