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	<title>Comments on: Good News!</title>
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	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 05:34:11 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45837</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 18:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45837</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Magis.  By way of contrast, here&#039;s the text of Michigan Prop 04-2:
&lt;blockquote&gt;A PROPOSAL TO AMEND THE STATE CONSTITUTION TO SPECIFY WHAT CAN BE RECOGNIZED AS A
“MARRIAGE OR SIMILAR UNION” FOR ANY PURPOSE.
The proposal would amend the state constitution
to provide that “the union of one man and one
woman in marriage shall be the only agreement
recognized as a marriage or similar union for any
purpose.”
Should this proposal be approved?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

See, that proposal simply says asks for an up-or-down vote on one piece of language.  Hard to find a more unitary way to phrase it than that.  On the other hand, the Georgia initiative is susceptible (as the Fulton County Superior Court found) to an adoption of one part but not the other.

Of course, the terse wording of the Michigan prop is subject to interpretation on what constitutes a &quot;similar union.&quot;  The ideological greedheads in Georgia wanted to eliminate any such ambiguity, and in so doing, they created a voidable ballot measure.  Serves &#039;em right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Magis.  By way of contrast, here&#8217;s the text of Michigan Prop 04-2:</p>
<blockquote><p>A PROPOSAL TO AMEND THE STATE CONSTITUTION TO SPECIFY WHAT CAN BE RECOGNIZED AS A<br />
“MARRIAGE OR SIMILAR UNION” FOR ANY PURPOSE.<br />
The proposal would amend the state constitution<br />
to provide that “the union of one man and one<br />
woman in marriage shall be the only agreement<br />
recognized as a marriage or similar union for any<br />
purpose.”<br />
Should this proposal be approved?</p></blockquote>
<p>See, that proposal simply says asks for an up-or-down vote on one piece of language.  Hard to find a more unitary way to phrase it than that.  On the other hand, the Georgia initiative is susceptible (as the Fulton County Superior Court found) to an adoption of one part but not the other.</p>
<p>Of course, the terse wording of the Michigan prop is subject to interpretation on what constitutes a &#8220;similar union.&#8221;  The ideological greedheads in Georgia wanted to eliminate any such ambiguity, and in so doing, they created a voidable ballot measure.  Serves &#8216;em right.</p>
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		<title>By: Magis</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45833</link>
		<dc:creator>Magis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 17:57:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45833</guid>
		<description>Ftiz:

The first thing a lawyer (or student) should do is read the text of the matter at hand, to wit:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Paragraph I. Recognition of marriage.  (a) This state shall recognize as marriage only the union of man and woman. Marriages between persons of the same sex are prohibited in this state.

(b) No union between persons of the same sex shall be recognized by this state as entitled to the benefits of marriage. This state shall not give effect to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other state or jurisdiction respecting a relationship between persons of the same sex that is treated as a marriage under the laws of such other state or jurisdiction. The courts of this state shall have no jurisdiction to grant a divorce or separate maintenance with respect to any such relationship or otherwise to consider or rule on any of the parties&#039; respective rights arising as a result of or in connection with such relationship.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now, the first part is pretty clear.  Two men shall not be issued a marriage license by any Georgia jurisdiction.

But THEN...

They quit talking about marriage and start talking about unions of any type.  Does this prohibit contracts?  Successorships?

And THEN...

They statutorily attempt on a state basis to overthrow the Comnity Clause of the Constitution.  Nullification much?

Now, Fitz, shine up your lawyerly microscope and try to tell me this is a single issue amendment.  It is, at best, a poorly crafted piece of crap.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ftiz:</p>
<p>The first thing a lawyer (or student) should do is read the text of the matter at hand, to wit:</p>
<blockquote><p>Paragraph I. Recognition of marriage.  (a) This state shall recognize as marriage only the union of man and woman. Marriages between persons of the same sex are prohibited in this state.</p>
<p>(b) No union between persons of the same sex shall be recognized by this state as entitled to the benefits of marriage. This state shall not give effect to any public act, record, or judicial proceeding of any other state or jurisdiction respecting a relationship between persons of the same sex that is treated as a marriage under the laws of such other state or jurisdiction. The courts of this state shall have no jurisdiction to grant a divorce or separate maintenance with respect to any such relationship or otherwise to consider or rule on any of the parties&#8217; respective rights arising as a result of or in connection with such relationship.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Now, the first part is pretty clear.  Two men shall not be issued a marriage license by any Georgia jurisdiction.</p>
<p>But THEN&#8230;</p>
<p>They quit talking about marriage and start talking about unions of any type.  Does this prohibit contracts?  Successorships?</p>
<p>And THEN&#8230;</p>
<p>They statutorily attempt on a state basis to overthrow the Comnity Clause of the Constitution.  Nullification much?</p>
<p>Now, Fitz, shine up your lawyerly microscope and try to tell me this is a single issue amendment.  It is, at best, a poorly crafted piece of crap.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45829</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 17:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45829</guid>
		<description>Fitz, I was making fun of you because I was pretty sure that you had no specialized knowledge of the law of Georgia ballot initiatives, and I called you &quot;perfesser&quot; because it seemed pretty silly to reach out and wing an opinion on a specialized area of law in a state you don&#039;t practice in with unqualified certainty.  It&#039;s pretty silly for a layperson, and more so for a lawyer.  I remember predictions from some of my colleagues that &lt;em&gt;Romer v. Evans &lt;/em&gt;and &lt;em&gt;Goodridge v. DPH&lt;/em&gt; were &quot;almost certain&quot; to go the other way, too.

(In fact, whether law professors know anything is a more complicated question -- some, like Sam Isaacharoff, Anthony Amsterdam and Barry Sheck, have reputations as practitioners, and others are pure academics.  Some of the pure academics know areas of law very well, but some areas only lend themselves to practical experience.  If your professors didn&#039;t know anything, that may have more to do with where you went to school.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fitz, I was making fun of you because I was pretty sure that you had no specialized knowledge of the law of Georgia ballot initiatives, and I called you &#8220;perfesser&#8221; because it seemed pretty silly to reach out and wing an opinion on a specialized area of law in a state you don&#8217;t practice in with unqualified certainty.  It&#8217;s pretty silly for a layperson, and more so for a lawyer.  I remember predictions from some of my colleagues that <em>Romer v. Evans </em>and <em>Goodridge v. DPH</em> were &#8220;almost certain&#8221; to go the other way, too.</p>
<p>(In fact, whether law professors know anything is a more complicated question &#8212; some, like Sam Isaacharoff, Anthony Amsterdam and Barry Sheck, have reputations as practitioners, and others are pure academics.  Some of the pure academics know areas of law very well, but some areas only lend themselves to practical experience.  If your professors didn&#8217;t know anything, that may have more to do with where you went to school.)</p>
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		<title>By: zuzu</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45828</link>
		<dc:creator>zuzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 17:03:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45828</guid>
		<description>Also, Fitz?  You still have to answer for your elitist, classist swipe at Hugo.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, Fitz?  You still have to answer for your elitist, classist swipe at Hugo.</p>
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		<title>By: zuzu</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45827</link>
		<dc:creator>zuzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 16:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45827</guid>
		<description>It would require clarity, Fitz, and it would require the people who push these amendments to unpack and spell out their agendas.  Which would mean, of course, that the idea might become a little less palatable to voters.

But you wouldn&#039;t want that happening, so you handwave the legal issues.  I&#039;m going to guess that the judge was a hair more conversant with Georgia constitutional law as well as the facts of the case than you are.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would require clarity, Fitz, and it would require the people who push these amendments to unpack and spell out their agendas.  Which would mean, of course, that the idea might become a little less palatable to voters.</p>
<p>But you wouldn&#8217;t want that happening, so you handwave the legal issues.  I&#8217;m going to guess that the judge was a hair more conversant with Georgia constitutional law as well as the facts of the case than you are.</p>
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		<title>By: Fitz</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45826</link>
		<dc:creator>Fitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 16:45:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45826</guid>
		<description>But I am a trial lawyer &amp; those are not the questions.Was this a valid single issue amendment? Watch it get overturned on appeal.  Here in Michigan the ballot measure was challenged on the same grounds. The amendment stood. When they say single issue they mean a single issue. The people are allowed to protect the institution and should not have to do it one piece at a time.
I mean imagine what this would require.
A vote on the word marriage.
A vote on the term civil unions.
A vote on the term domestic partnerships.
A series of votes on what could and couldn’t be included? 

I believe every time a Judge Thwarts the will of the people like this it only helps the pro-marriage side. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But I am a trial lawyer &amp; those are not the questions.Was this a valid single issue amendment? Watch it get overturned on appeal.  Here in Michigan the ballot measure was challenged on the same grounds. The amendment stood. When they say single issue they mean a single issue. The people are allowed to protect the institution and should not have to do it one piece at a time.<br />
I mean imagine what this would require.<br />
A vote on the word marriage.<br />
A vote on the term civil unions.<br />
A vote on the term domestic partnerships.<br />
A series of votes on what could and couldn’t be included? </p>
<p>I believe every time a Judge Thwarts the will of the people like this it only helps the pro-marriage side.</p>
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		<title>By: zuzu</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45824</link>
		<dc:creator>zuzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 16:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45824</guid>
		<description>Was that a swipe at Hugo&#039;s job, Fitz?

Rather classist of you.

And if you seriously think that because the question was on the ballot then, ipso facto, it was fine, you know nothing about the way these things work.  And if you think that the &quot;single issue&quot; was the protection of the institution of marriage, well, you must not be a trial lawyer.  Because if you were, you&#039;d recognize that, as the judge said, there are many elements to the ultimate question whether banning same-sex marriage &quot;protects the institution of marriage,&quot; and that each element must be determined independently, just like a jury verdict.  

First question is whether marriage is in need of protecting.  Another, separate question is whether this is the way to do it.  See how that works?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was that a swipe at Hugo&#8217;s job, Fitz?</p>
<p>Rather classist of you.</p>
<p>And if you seriously think that because the question was on the ballot then, ipso facto, it was fine, you know nothing about the way these things work.  And if you think that the &#8220;single issue&#8221; was the protection of the institution of marriage, well, you must not be a trial lawyer.  Because if you were, you&#8217;d recognize that, as the judge said, there are many elements to the ultimate question whether banning same-sex marriage &#8220;protects the institution of marriage,&#8221; and that each element must be determined independently, just like a jury verdict.  </p>
<p>First question is whether marriage is in need of protecting.  Another, separate question is whether this is the way to do it.  See how that works?</p>
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		<title>By: Fitz</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45822</link>
		<dc:creator>Fitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 16:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45822</guid>
		<description>Community colleges are more like ivory bungalows.   </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Community colleges are more like ivory bungalows.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugo</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45821</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 15:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45821</guid>
		<description>I was going to say something sensible from up here in my ivory tower, but realized that it would be meaningless.

So I&#039;ll just add to the chorus of qualified and hopeful &quot;Yays.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was going to say something sensible from up here in my ivory tower, but realized that it would be meaningless.</p>
<p>So I&#8217;ll just add to the chorus of qualified and hopeful &#8220;Yays.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Fitz</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45819</link>
		<dc:creator>Fitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 May 2006 15:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/05/16/good-news/#comment-45819</guid>
		<description>Tom old buddy.

I&#039;m not a professor. (Were did you get that idea?)

Just your average lawyer who keeps abreast of these issues. Here in Michigan the ballot measure was challenged on the same grounds. The appeal is automatic since it’s a constitutional amendment and has the effect of binding law until the State Supreme Court grant review.

You shouldn’t listen to professors anyway, they aren’t down in the pits actually practicing, their up in there ivory towers dealing in “theory”.
(little tip)
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom old buddy.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a professor. (Were did you get that idea?)</p>
<p>Just your average lawyer who keeps abreast of these issues. Here in Michigan the ballot measure was challenged on the same grounds. The appeal is automatic since it’s a constitutional amendment and has the effect of binding law until the State Supreme Court grant review.</p>
<p>You shouldn’t listen to professors anyway, they aren’t down in the pits actually practicing, their up in there ivory towers dealing in “theory”.<br />
(little tip)</p>
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