There’s a lot in this article worth dissecting (beginning with the title — she didn’t exactly “change her mind” — and continuing through with the heteronormativity) but there’s an honesty to it that I like. I think it can be hard for feminist women to talk about our love lives — the frustration that can come from loving men when you know that you just aren’t equal and that they just don’t have to care about these issues the same way that you do; the inevitable irritation when they just don’t get it; that twinge of recognition and deep fear when you read feminist writings that assert that men hate women, and when you glimpse a peek of that hatred in the men you care about. And at least for me, I occassionally find it hard to talk to my feminist friends about men and dating and love, in part because I find myself not wanting to admit that I “need” men — and I guess I don’t “need” them, but I sure do like them a lot.
So I’ll hand it to the author for, in a short space, at least trying to explore some of these issues. It’s not perfect, but a lot of it resonated with me. Like this:
In a country where you can’t show a penis on television, the popular rap star Snoop Dogg can sing a song on the radio called “Can U Control Yo Hoe,” in which he says a man has to do what it takes to put his woman “in her place” even if it means “slapping her in the face.”
Outside my office building in Times Square stands a billboard for the new HBO series “Big Love” — three women of varying ages stare blank-eyed and weary at one exhausted, oversexed man. Beneath them are the words “Polygamy Loves Company.”
A block away, there’s a long row of sex shops and strip clubs. When I run out to grab a sandwich at lunchtime, men are waltzing into these places without so much as a hint of embarrassment.
Who are they? I often wonder. What are their lives like?
It seems impossible that they all live in caves or in their mothers’ basements. Most must have jobs, homes, wives, girlfriends. They are not considered abnormal, any more than the guy who purchases a Snoop CD, or tunes in to see how Bill Paxton deals with those three demanding wives, poor lamb. If this is the culture in which we live and love, how must men, in their heart of hearts, view women?
When I think of men this way, as I often do, I want to go back to Smith and stay there among the shaved-headed sisterhood until I die.
God I feel her on this. I know some people will object to the term “shaved-head sisterhood,” but I’m going to look past it for now. When I do what she does here — when I really look around and try and take in all the cultural misogyny that surrounds us every second of the day — I feel so overwhelmed that I just want out. There are certainly days when I want absolutely nothing to do with men. (And I have full faith that that sentence will be excerpted on some right-wing site as evidence that feminists are all man-haters. So be it.) I’m not going to spend paragraphs explaining that I don’t actually hate men, and before any novice patriarchy-blamer attacks me, do some reading and some research, because I’m not going to explain feminism 101 to you. Point is, we’re all living in a culture that poisons men against women, that reinforces male domination and superiority, and that is so sick that a feminist like me just cannot leave her politics at the bedroom door.
And that terrifies me. I’ve dated some nice men — some incredible, intelligent, kind, wonderful, progressive men — but they’re still men who have grown up in a culture that teaches them to hate women. And they’re assumed to be superior, and they simply don’t have to question the status quo or do anything about it. And in just about every relationship I’ve been in, there have been at least a few feminist falling-outs. They weren’t usually deal-breakers, but they shaped my view of the person that I was with, and they generally just made me feel bad – like there was another reminder that I wasn’t entirely safe, even within my own relationship, and that this person who I cared about and maybe even loved could never really see me or get it. And when the relationships ended, they were always the moments that I looked back on in reminding myself that “it just wasn’t right.”
Now, it does occassionally go the other way, and I do agree with the author that dating a feminist can be quite a learning experience for lots of men. My college boyfriend, who is also in law school, is spending his summer clerking for a feminist federal court judge, who he specifically applied to because of her politics. He’s spent the past semester raving out his Constitutional Law class, because the professor is married to a feminist legal scholar and they read Catherine MacKinnon in class and talk a lot about feminist legal theory. Another guy I dated for a while recently stopped seeing the woman he had been dating because they had a conversation about feminism and she emphasized that she was not a feminist; he found that questionable, the same way that he would find it questionable if he was having a conversation about racism and someone stressed that they were not an anti-racist. So yes, feminist women can shift perceptions one man at a time. And sometimes we can’t — I’ve dated those guys, too.
At the end of the day, I think that there just may be no reconciling it. Feminist and pro-feminist men exist, and I do what I can to find them, but they aren’t going to be perfect feminists (neither am I). And if they’re also independent and ballsy — qualities that I certainly like in people — then they probably aren’t always going to agree with me when it comes to every feminist issue. And that can be a tough pill to swallow.
There will always be contradictions between our ideals and how we live our lives, and while younger feminists often find it necessary to stress that we aren’t man-haters, it can be very challenging to justify loving men in this oppressive system — even when in your heart of hearts you do love them unquestionably, and even when you don’t feel like that man who you love, as an individual, oppresses you. And it can be hard to hold feminist beliefs and still secretly want to find the man who sweeps you off your feet, or to just be taken out, or to lay in bed and be the inside of the spoon. What it comes down to, I think, is that most of us are just doing the best we can in the situation we’re in, but some of us don’t have the privilege (or perhaps the naivete) of ignoring those forces which do harm to us. And that makes for a lot of frustration, a lot of sadness, and sometimes just too much thinking — the kind of thinking that will make someone stay up until 2am spewing about things that she can’t change and that inevitably just depress her. So I appreciate that this writer didn’t always toe the line. There are a lot of things that I don’t love about the piece, but on a certain level I relate to it.
And let’s not even get started on the feminist politics of sex.
Just curious: Is she advocating outlawing Snoop Dogg from saying that on the radio, or allowing penises to be broadcast on the television? Otherwise, it’s a worthless point of reference, as virtually anything can be said on the radio or on television so long as it does not include some “magic words.”
Trade. Outlaw explicit sexism, and allow nudity. A dick for a dick—fair trade.
Laws aren’t going to help this stuff, Kyra. These are deeply rooted social problems. If you could get such laws passed, all you’ve get is immediate masculinist backlash, a new crop of legislators next election season, and a repeal. If it even took that long. To outlaw “explicit sexism”… That clearly would require some very extreme constitution-stomping. It can’t fly under existing obscenity standards, because it’s not a restriction on particular images or words (like naked breasts or “fuck”)… it would actually be a restriction on propositional content. It would be illegal to express certain ideas… ideas that are deeply ingrained in our culture. The Supreme Court would hold an emergency hearing.
Anyway, what I’m most concerned with is the immediate judgment expressed here: “A block away, there’s a long row of sex shops and strip clubs. When I run out to grab a sandwich at lunchtime, men are waltzing into these places without so much as a hint of embarrassment.” Wow. For one thing, I can promise you it’s not just “men”. (Well, maybe at the strip clubs.) But seriously, sex shops are very necessary for some women, because they are a source of vibrators that doesn’t show up on your credit card bill.
I’m glad to know that if a feminist acquaintance sees me coming out of the sex shop with my sweetie, that there could well be this rush to judgment. I mean, hell, we go shopping for sex toys together(or apart), the logical conclusion is that I hate her and all other women, that I force her to wear a dog collar and leash in private, and that on lean months I pimp her out for bottles of jack.
Seriously, though, everyone needs to work on treading with a little more care. Men and sex don’t need to be demonized for women to be liberated. In fact, I suspect that the two are mutually exclusive.
Neil, I think the question is why are words about sex and other natural bodily parts/functions taboo but violence is not taboo?
Why aren’t the seven things you can’t say on TV “kill” “stab” “shoot” “bomb” “rape” “murder” and “hit”?
Sure, it’s tradition, but is that a good enough answer?
Jill, I have to disagree with you about the Times article. I think the Times piece was annoying, cutesy, and shallow, and traded in some of the worst stereotypes about feminists. Blech!
Your post, on the other hand, is wonderful. It’s very moving, and very smart. You get at some of the pain and complexity of being a feminist trying to find love in a sexist, not infrequently misogynist, world. It’s so good that *you* should be writing for the Times, dammit, not her!
In my single days, my relationships with men were often difficult. When you are, like I am, a strong woman and an outspoken feminist, you sometimes attract guys who are both attracted to and repelled by your strength and your feminism. I spent way too much time and emotional energy on this type of guy. I don’t know if they were working out their mother issues, or what, but they tended to be emotionally unpredictable (supportive at some times, withholding at others), and were also ambivalent about my success (at least one of them was clearly jealous of my academic success, even though he was equally academically successful).
Eventually I learned to stay away from these kinds of guys, and for the past five years I’ve been blissfully married to a man who not only truly loves and supports me, but also really gets it when it comes to feminism. Such men are rare, but believe me, they exist!
No question, though, being a heterosexual feminist looking for a loving, committed relationship can be hard, and lonely. It’s lonely in two ways — first, because you won’t settle for just anyone, you end up being alone a lot of the time. (I’m the oldest of five kids and the last to be married — in fact, I didn’t marry until my mid-30s, which is unheard of in my traditional family). Second, it’s lonely because our culture in general is not exactly sympathetic to feminism, nor is it supportive of feminist women trying to develop egalitarian relationships.
One thing that I think would help is if we feminists spoke out more about this issue, and gave each other support. Your post is a step towards this, and I commend you for it.
Within every man there is a deep seated fear of inadequacy. Within every man there is a deep seated fear of women, and an anger. These may be so deep seated they are subconscious only, but they are there. To live in the porno world* is to live vicariously and never have to face your fears or anger. The anger is over the power given to women (even in the Patriarchy) to say no.
A man’s journey to becoming well adjusted consists of accepting women first as humans and then as equals and then finally as soul mates. To be able celebrate her flowering and liberation is simultaneously to celebrate the conquest of that scared little boy in all of us.
I don’t disagree with anything Jill wrote and sympathize with it all. But, it might be helpful to rememberr we are on a difficult journey too.
I can’t only say that the journey is worth the cost. And there is a cost. If it was easy to be a well adjusted adult there wouldn’t be so many crazies out there.
*Porno that depicts subjugation
See this is where I feel like I’ve kinda copped out a little bit. I’m bisexual, and I’ve been in a wonderful relationship with a girl for the last two years. The nice thing about dating a girl is that you can completely avoid the most thorny of this stuff.
But then I feel guilty when I see my straight feminist friends struggle like you’ve described, to find a man that won’t indirectly oppress them or be threatened by thier sucess and strength, or just doesn’t get what the big deal is… while I never have to deal with that problem in my relationship. I feel kinda guilty, like I should be there in the trenches with them, like its only through luck that I ended up bisexual and they didn’t, so they have to go through all this shit. Then again, maybe it is a trade off since I’ll have to deal with issues being a same sex couple that they will never have to deal with….
The end point, no matter how smartly we critique the system, living our actual lives in it just sucks sometimes.
This really resonates with me. I feel like family and some friends are waiting for me to get “realistic” and just accept things, but I can’t. I won’t be a Stepford wife.
I agree with Sarah S that relationships with women don’t have the same issues. And yet, sometimes the person I fall for is a man, and then I have to make my way through his issues regarding women and feminism. And then somehow, his issues become my issues, and I find myself sorting through them even after the relationship is over. (The bisexual = slut thing, for starters.)
Thanks Jill… posts like this are exactly why I read feminist blogs… it is a difficult and lonely world for single feminists, and it can be so goddamn depressing just watching TV and seeing those things that, as feminists, we resent and recognize as oppressive, but most of the population just sees as totally acceptable parts of our culture. When talking to people I work with and trying to discuss sexism, sometimes I come away from it feeling as though I’m the one whose mind needs to change, because I feel like I’m the only one who even notices the sexism inherent in seemingly EVERYTHING I see in the media and hear in the conversations of the men around me. Reading what you write reminds me that I’m not crazy (well, not in this particular way, anyway) and gives me a little hope, knowing that there are others out there sharing my experiences… So, thanks.
This really rings true for me, too.
“Feminist and pro-feminist men exist, and I do what I can to find them, but they aren’t going to be perfect feminists (neither am I). And if they’re also independent….then they probably aren’t always going to agree with me when it comes to every feminist issue. And that can be a tough pill to swallow.”
Being feminist in this culture, no matter what your gender or sex, is an act of independance. But i think its superbly valuable to note that even if we’ve got (legitimate and real) deal breakers, that among allies, partners, lovers…that it’s about broader trust that gives context to individual disagreements.
Sarah S…don’t feel like you’ve copped at all. while i don’t use “bi” as a self-descriptor (gender binary issues, etc…), i’m most attracted to bi-identified, attraction queer, and other people who form relationships in those ways. like jill says, feeling unsafe in your own relationship is really unnerving, and if somebody already “gets it” then so much the better.
I’ve been blissfully married to a man who not only truly loves and supports me, but also really gets it when it comes to feminism. Such men are rare, but believe me, they exist!
Yeppers. They are out there — nobody should be satisfied with anything less.
My husbands “gets” the part in the Handmaid’s Tale where the narrator speculates about her lover — where she wonders if her lover from the time before would secretly enjoy the new property laws (and unequal civil rights laws) that favor men in Gilead. It’s a good sign if a man can talk about that section of Atwood’s book with you.
Yesterday I told my husband how happy I was that he’s a feminist.
I don’t have much of substance to contribute here, but I will say something in response to this:
Thing is…there really is kind of a shaved-headed sisterhood at Smith. It’s a little bit of an exaggeration, but it’s not too far off from the truth.
Just sayin.
What a wonderful post, Jill. When I feel these sort of pressures coming down, this is when I remember the number one most important part of feminism–it’s a movement first and foremost, and not about self-help or improving your life per se. (Though patriarchy-blaming is very useful for improving your personal circumstances.) Pro-feminist men are still men and are therefore privileged, but realistically speaking, they are very good for the cause because their very existence shows that men can resist the patriarchy.
It’s also worth noting that there’s a reason feminists prefer the term “patriarchy” to “male domination”. The latter implies a simple system of putting men over women. The former, however, is a term that more accurately describes the situation–patriarchs over everyone else. Men are over women in a sense, but it’s more that women are objects in an intra-male domination game. Sometimes it’s hard to see how it works in our own society but by looking at those that don’t try to hide their patriarchal inclinations as well as ours, it’s easy. For instance, the way polygamous Mormons have to eject lower status young men to avoid competing with them for women.
Once men realize that by dominating women they are participating in a system that is also about other men dominating them, they’re usually more inclined to see why feminism is in their own self-interest. I therefore find it useful to point these dynamics out to straight men that are pro-feminist but maybe have trouble resisting the urge to indulge their privileges. :D
I’m reminded of an old Jules Feiffer cartoon, which showed a string of battered female talking heads, which started off with the first saying, “They say that men hate women …” with each having some brief explanation of why. The last three panels, though, went:
“Men don’t hate women.”
“Men need women.”
“Men hate needing.”
I suspect that until the ramifications of the emotionally inhumane and frequently brutal way boys are often treated in this culture is folded into the broader feminist consciousness, there will continue to be a lot of ‘they just don’t get it’ ruminations amongst both men and women who are sensitive to these issues.
Magis, I would counter that the first step for a man’s journey is to accept himself as human and equal, and not to conquer the “scared little boy” inside but to accept that part as a perfectly valid, deep part of himself. Repudiating that psychic core may allow better functioning as a ‘normal’, “privileged” man in this society — where male vulnerability is viewed with suspicion if not outright contempt — but the buried anger and resentment that results from that repudiation is unlikely to be conducive to empathy with intimates.
[...] ” Over at Feministe, blogger and twenty-something NYU law student Jill has posted very interesting and compelling commentary about tensions related to [...]
Oh, come on. Such blanket statements are never accurate . At least back through your post and replace “every man” with “most men.”
You bring up a simple, yet to be, radically profound point when you say (more or less) that no man can be the perfect feminist, but then again, YOU’RE not the perfect feminist either. I tend to be dismissive of straight feminist women who get overly defensive about the fact that they commit themselves to men. You are obviously not doing that. Just because you’re making your primary romantic relationships (and most people regard their romantic relationships as their primary relationships, period) with MEN, not with women (which, if we want to be truthful, is objectively not the most feminist thing, to commit yourself primarily to men over women), does not mean you have to answer for anything more than any other feminist who does not live her life as a 100% perfect feminist. I’ve yet to meet such a feminist. If YOU meet her, let me know!
I say this with some trepidation, but the tension between living philosophy and living that exists in feminism is present in any other ideology we care about. The problem that makes lived feminism different from many other political values, as I see it, is that it will at time run counter to a woman’s existentiale characteristics. A patriarchal society is a purely ontic fact – there’s nothing necesary about its existence and feminism can and will succeed at fighting against it.
But I think the notion that (heterosexual) feminists can or should somehow escape any attraction, sexual relationships or partnerships with men is futile in its denial of the human condition. The frustrations that might come from dating men who are allies or less should not come as a reflection of a woman’s feminism, but a recognition that we can’t escape relationships and connectivity as we go through life.
I like that Sullivan is able to recognize the place romantic relationships have in her life without having it be a detraction of her as feminist. The expectation of the flawless activist is extremely damaging to any movement and it seems like Sullivan is able to confront it in a real, lived way. There are some things we can fight, others we can’t. It’d be a pretty scary thought to expect feminists to force themselves into celibacy just because the perfect male feminist doesn’t exist.
Apologies for the excessive Heideggerian terminology in this comment…
There is a strip club a half a block from my job as well. I also have passed it on my way to my favorite chinese fast food joint (next door) at lunch. I have wondered why a guy goes to a strip club for lunch. Is it for a cheap burger with a side of titties? Or does the partial nudity become just part of the decor, like the RC Gorman prints found in the local family friendly buffet restaurant, and the cheap burger become the primary reason for going to lunch there?
Do the men go back to work after lunch sporting wood? If so, how would that affect their job performance? Could an on-the-job accident be blamed on working with a semi-erect penis? Would they be more likely to be hostile to women?
A beautiful post. I have a six month old son, and I think about how I’m going to be able to help him with this, to be a feminist man. The fact that his father is a feminist (not a perfect one, but then neither am I ) is the first and best step. But he’s going to be out there in a world that tries to brutally kill off the “softer” side of boys, with ridicule and threats and lies about what men and women are. His father went through that already, and has the scars to prove it. But he persevered to become the amazing person he is now, and I think his son has a good chance of doing the same.
Edith, the thing is that I don’t see partnering with a man as a “flaw”. Men are oppressed by the patriarchy, albeit less so. If they can see this, they can be allies. The logic that privilege means you can’t be an enemy of the status quo would mean that rich women have no place in a feminist movement, either. But it was rich women, for instance, that helped free women from marital oppession by funding contraceptive research.
Re-reading the article, I’m inclined to think my view that turnabout is fair play really still might be the best approach to taming the force of male privilege in your sex life. This is why men fear sluts; they take away a man’s power to direct women in his life to agree with his political views by depriving him of his ability to deny her a sex life. Things always go sour when you assume that men have the upper hand when it comes to getting laid. The patriarchy has fucked itself over; by putting so much pressure on women to be chaste and on men to be sluts, they have created a supply and demand situation where a woman can in fact have lots of sex while refusing to partner with anyone who can’t respect her.
On top of this, the ugly truth is that bright, opinionated, iconoclastic people will always have problems easily finding a partner. High standards are not a whole lot easier on men than women, really. In fact, it sounds like Sullivan has the same issues a lot of people do–she didn’t meet a man she liked for a long time and when she did she found that they were willing to work together because they liked each other. This is true of your feminist politics, but it’s also true of say, taste in music. (Big with me.) More feminist-blaming from the NY Times.
One more thought–Andrea Dworkin had a faithful male partner, Mo Dowd doesn’t. This isn’t to say that anecdote is data or anything, but I think that it’s useful to remind yourself of these sorts of things when the patriarchal lie that women are so debased that we can’t be loved unless we concede our inferiority starts to chew on you.
Dennis—I’m joking.
It was meant to be a commentary on the fact that the thing outlawed (“you can’t show a penis on television”) is less harmful than something that is allowed.
Ballgame:
Yes, if you haven’t. Perhaps conquer was a poor choice of words. But as they say, at some point, you have to put the things of childhood aside. Hopefully the playful part will always be there. But the under-the-bed monsters just have to go.
Marksman:
K. I settle for 98% or so.
I don’t, and never have, believed secret evil things about women in general. But I was, at one point in my early life, an anti-feminist. When I was, I believed many things about women, most of them contradictory, most of them unexamined.
In the same sense that one can take he who hesitates is lost and haste makes waste as incontrovertable truisms simultaneously, I simultaneously held some toxic beliefs* about women in general while holding contradictory beliefs about every women I knew in particular. Women in general were less capable, less able, less rational. Women in particular, women I knew, were as able as myself, as capable as myself, as rational myself. The snapping point came when I realized that every single woman I know was the exception to the rule. Not everyone reaches that point.
Every man I know — and I still associate on friendly terms with a lot of men who don’t consider themselves feminists — is the same way. Even when I and my friends were perfectly in step as far as our beliefs, I never had a man express that they hated women, or thought that women were primarily sex objects, or that they thought women were their property. A lot of men don’t believe they have to think about how they think about women; that what they’re told refers to the real world and not to a structure designed to keep the world a certain way and women in a certain place.
But people betray their worst principles as frequently as their best. This is not to defend the behavior of all them men I know, all the time, but decency is the rule and not the exception. Because reality is the way it is, because it openly contradicts the systems designed to keep men on top, they betray their public principles more frequently than they uphold them.
Until they vote. Or until they’re in a pack led by someone who never betrays their worst natures. This is always irritating, frequently frightening, and sometimes dangerous. I don’t mean to discount or make light of that. But in all but the worst men, I’ve heard beliefs and intuitions that are opposed to the fucking idiotic way our society is organized.
Not that I have any clue who feminists should sleep with. Just that I think more men are tractable, convinceable, than a lot of female feminists who haven’t been with men in homosocial settings believe.
– ACS
Amanda, you’re definitely right about rich women and how they’ve helped women as a whole. Of course, het feminists have helped women as a whole too. I think “flaw” was a poor choice in words. I’ll just stick to “privilege” — it’s tried and true!
Edith:
So women can only properly serve and live feminism by being gay.
Just like gay people can only properly serve religion (or society, or their parents’ picket-fence dreams…) by becoming straight.
I don’t buy it.
Furthermore, the idea of a “perfect feminist” sounds like a contest I don’t want to be in. “King of the hill” wasn’t my favorite game as a kid, and “Queen of the (feminist) hill” isn’t any more appealing.
Thank you Jill for the excellent post and opportunity for discussion.
Ah! Thank you, Philo.
Thanks, Edith! By the “perfect” standards I, too, am no feminist at all. I’m hopelessly het, took my husband’s last name (mainly to satisfy social/legal expectations) and have turned myself into a walking uterus since Christmas. Worse…
I stripped my way through my second degree and years 2-6 of my kid’s life. And I refuse to look back in horror. I liked it. It was fun. At worst it was like any other boring, commission-based job on slow days. Now, I worked in a tiny, kind of rural place. Unless it was a busy weekend, and often even then, most guys just came in for a drink and someone to talk to. Very often, regulars just bought table dances and such because they knew we were there to make money and that was the price of conversation. I imagine that’s what the lunch crowds are for…look at some boobs, talk to a girl you’d never talk to outside that venue. Also most of the places open for lunch have super inexpensive plate/buffet deals and such to enable the club (and girls) to make money on the day shift.
I did travel and worked in some clubs that had a very different culture…no conversation, table dance or leave, blows and more in the VIP if they could get away with it. Not coincidentally, these clubs were much more the anti-SOB (sexually oriented business, a licensing term) idea of strip clubs, and while I made a lot of money (outside the VIP room!) I didn’t like them. Lots of hookers, lots of illegal stuff from drugs to whatever. I admit that I did accept tips for hooking up the girls that “did” with customers that wanted that extra something after making it clear that I wasn’t the chick for them. I never got hassled or anything, probably because I found a role and stuck to it. But the atmosphere was sad and dehumanizing and I was glad to be back home after a weekend there (I worked three, and made more money on a weekend in the “bad” club than a whole week, on average, than the “good” home club).
But I’m straying OT. I just wanted to share about the “imperfect feminist” issue and try to opine about the lunchtime strip club customers.
[...] 5/22/2006 You Are My Everything I was reading this interesting post by Jill of Feministe. She’s talking about the situation tha [...]
I should have named my blog “Sleeping With the Enemy since 1984.” It started out as a place for me to document the pleasures in my life, sex and dating being among them. What it’s turning into, however, is a journal that documents this very struggle. For instance, my last “big” date included an impromptu visit to a Playboy studio. How to reconcile THAT with my feminist sensibilities, even if I may fall into the so-called “sex-positive” camp? (I so hate that term!!!!!!) I couldn’t reconcile it, so I just wrote about it instead.
This was a beautifully written post, and I’ll probably blog about this when I get home tonight. And Amanda, I can totally relate to your suggestion of “turning the tables” on men. But then again, I’m old enough not to be intimidated with the “slut” label . . .
By the way, that “sleeping with the enemy” quip was meant tongue-in-cheek. I know men aren’t really the enemy :-) Although while in the midst of a breakup with one, he can SEEM like the enemy . . .
Edith, I’m also confused on that point. As a heterosexual woman, I’ve never met a woman who I was attracted to enough to have a relationship with. There are women I feel are beautiful, absolutely, but I’m simply not sexually attracted to women. I am, however, sexually attracted to men, so I don’t see how it’s a more feminist thing for me to have sex with a woman I’m not attracted to then it is to have sex with a man I am attracted to? I’ll be the first to admit, it is a little depressing when the man you are in love with just doesn’t get it. I was trying to explain the misogyny in the “you poke it, you own it” man law commercial when it was on tv the other day, and my husband looked at me like I had two heads and told me I needed to lighten up, they were just talking about beer, not women. So on that hand, yeah, being with a woman would make life a lot easier. But at the same time, trying to be someone you’re absolutely not just to be a more consistent feminist doesn’t sound like a lot of fun to me either. I’m certainly not the perfect feminist- like K, I changed my name when I married (not because my husband gave a shit, because he told me he had no preference either way), plan on being a stay at home mom for a couple of years and have been a walking uterus for awhile now. My husband is, however, an overall good guy who doesn’t treat women like property or inferiors (and in fact, would be the first to tell you that I am smarter than he is), who sees me as his equal and does his share (and many times more than his share) of housework without me nagging him to do so. He’s certainly not perfect, nor am, nor do we have the perfect equal marriage, but it works well for us and if I call him on something, he’ll apologize for it and we move on.
Magis: I appreciate your response to my comment, but I think your wording (“things of childhood”, “monsters-under-the-bed”) tends to validate my point about the disparaging way male vulnerability is viewed in this society.
This seriously hits home with me despite the fact that I am not a feminist.
when I really look around and try and take in all the cultural misogyny that surrounds us every second of the day — I feel so overwhelmed that I just want out. There are certainly days when I want absolutely nothing to do with men. (And I have full faith that that sentence will be excerpted on some right-wing site as evidence that feminists are all man-haters. So be it.) I’m not going to spend paragraphs explaining that I don’t actually hate men, and before any novice patriarchy-blamer attacks me, do some reading and some research, because I’m not going to explain feminism 101 to you. Point is, we’re all living in a culture that poisons men against women, that reinforces male dominatio
I adore men it is just that the fact that they don’t get it, will never get it, and it has become increasingly obvious to me over time that most of them do not get it no matter how good their intentions, began to affect my relationship with them from summer after high school through the present and I sometimes fear there is no reconciling this predicament.
emjaybee:
YES! It’s hard enough trying to be in a sexually romantic relationship with a man, it’s even hard trying to raise one I think. Perhaps it is so because we have all of society to contend with and there are days that I hope (a lot) that whatever we’ve talked about at home will carry him over until the next week. Peanut will be 7 in mid-August and there are many many many days when I feel as if I’m fighting an uphill battle. Not-to-mention my severly anti-feminist ex-husband who at one time thought I was teaching Peanut to hate men since, hey, aren’t all feminists man-haters?
So yeah, I’m totally feelin’ this post Jill and all the other silent mommies of sons out there.
I’m actually scared of this myself…. I have a daughter who’s two and a son on the way and I am petrified of what I am going to do with him. I don’t know how to raise a boy…. I really don’t know how to raise a feminist/pro-feminist man. We’ll do the best we can, but it is scary and sort of overwhelming all at the same time.
I think the best way to be a feminist is live the life you want to live, fight for the things you want to fight for and be with the people you want to be with.
If you let anyone tell you you can’t do that, then your not standing up for yourself.
Sidenote: I think the best way to raise a boy, is teach them to think, teach them to stand up for themselves and others (martial arts and self defence help) and teach them that everyone has their bad days when they feel terrible and there is nothing wrong with that.
Then again, Id teach a girl all that too :)
On that note, does anyone know of any books about raising feminist kids, especially boys? My gf and I would like to start having kids in the next couple of years and I would love a book on child rearing that emphasizes how to raise gender conscious kids in our society. Anybody Anybody? Bueller?
ballgame:
I guess I’m still not getting there. I’m talking about accepting vulnerablity (the monster under bed) and that it takes an adult to do that. That is putting away the “things of childhood.” Growing up is accepting that we’re all vulnerable, and mortal and of equal worth.