Yeah, and all. We *all* are. Thing is, I wish Twisty well, I mean, god know I’m sorry about her health.

But at this point I’m feeling a little disinclined to bend any farther over backwards to empathize with someone who, in the six months or so I’ve seen her interactions, and particularly now, with this, gives me no indication that she’s able or willing to reciprocate.

If you keep treating people like a bunch of sock puppets for your amusement, well, that’s well and good if you *like* being a sock puppet (hey, lookie-loo, there’s that wacky notion of “consent!”) But maybe don’t be too surprised when some other people get tired of it. (Speaking of objectification). That’s all, really.

Lynn Gazis-Sax:

my position is that they’re fine as long as there’s quid pro quo

I don’t know about that. Men of a certain type have a dim enough view of cunnilingus as it is, I don’t know about encouraging the view that it’s a chore that must be performed to placate a woman.

there are, yes, some cultural messages about blowjobs that are creepy, but that’s a separate issue from who enjoys them

That may be the argument that was being got at, although that’s not a particularly inflammatory way of putting it. And someone who replied to that by saying “well, I like sucking cock”* would sound rather defensive about the whole thing.

No single act comes standard in the sense that someone who doesn’t want to do it should just give in and deal.

In fact, Savage has made an exception to this rule (admittedly, for an abuse survivor). I look at it — and I think it was in this thread that I hinted at my perspective — as being true from the point of view of the would-be giver (or non-giver): you’re welcome not to do it if you have a partner who’ll accept** that, but your partner is not weird or perverted or abusive or indeed gross for wanting it. Pressing, yes, but not merely wanting.

*I never use “cocksucker” as an insult because I don’t want those people willing to give me head to have the opportunity to ponder the implications of that.
** I’m using the least loaded term I can think of; I almost wrote “tolerate”

At any rate, I’m sure as well that for many girls and guys, there have been partners for whom giving blowjobs may seem more or less appealing (i.e. for the considerate lover free of expectation, versus the fetishist porn junkie who insists on gagging or otherwise causing discomfort to the donating partner). In my experience, sex is different for everyone, so applying a universal standard of judgement to sex practices as a whole seems kind of foolish.

I think that while sex as an economic and political force should be politicized and addressed, I’m not sure that the sex act as a function of consenting contact between two (or more) individuals CAN be, really.

Dan Savage’s main redeeming feature, in my eyes, is that when he gets a letter where the obvious answer is DTMFA (DS acronym for “dump the motherfucker already”), he goes ahead and says right out to DTMFA, rather than doing the Cary Tennis thing of giving a really roundabout answer which eventually gets around to hinting that, just maybe, you don’t need to be at the motherfucker’s beck and call. Problem is, he’s just as blunt when he’s dead wrong, as he is, in fact, in his stupid “blowjobs come standard” rule. No single act comes standard in the sense that someone who doesn’t want to do it should just give in and deal. Rather, what should come standard is reciprocity, honesty, and willingness to look for ways to satisfy both people.

Sheesh.

>The thesis (such as it was, being a total wind-up anyway) was more: it’s gross – stop kidding yourselves that you’re enjoying it. Similarly the comments that took this side of things were not saying DONT, but were saying: examine what it is you’re doing and why the huge defensiveness ? No-one is saying don’t .>

As others have said: it effectively amounts to “shouldn’t.”

But even if that weren’t so, I think this

>it’s gross – stop kidding yourselves that you’re enjoying it.

is actually *worse* than out-and-out saying “you shouldn’t do this.”

If someone says, “You shouldn’t do thus and so,” well, that’s annoying, but at least it’s fairly straightforward. You can then ask,

“Why?”

“Because it’s gross.”

“Says who?”

“Says me.”

“Well I’m not you, so stuff it.”

“Says…Feminism.”

“How so? Why?”

…and so on.

But to tell someone who’s just told you, “yes, me, that is, me, I really really do like this,”

“stop kidding yourself,”

even without the extra little dollop of “it’s gross,” just to make you feel shamed and put down (shamed and put down for liking something sexual? why no, there’s nothing reminiscent of patriarchy about that experience!),

“no, you don’t like it; you only think you do, ’cause no woman does. Oh, c’mon now. You know it’s true”

…that is a headfuck. How are you supposed to argue with that one?

“Yes I DO TOO”

“No, you don’t. You’re brainwashed. Let me show you The Truth”

“I know my own truth already!”

“Then why are you getting so defensive?”

“I’M NOT DEFENSIVE, YOU’RE FUCKING WITH ME!”

“I’m only trying to help, really.”

…that way madness lies. That’s what the *real* brainwashers do. Works, too.

And no, “I’m just yanking your chain” doesn’t make it okay. Examine this, if you want to examine something: *why* do you feel the need to yank our chain? And why about this shit in particular, over and over and over again? And why are you so disgusted with this, and why is it you can’t stop talking about it, and why are you apparently more interested in talking about other peoples’ shit that you’re so disgusted with rather than what *you* like, or even what *you* (just you) *don’t* like, and *why* you don’t like it? Hm?

So, yeah. I’ve examined my shit already, thankyouverymuch; I just happen to have come to different conclusions than you. How about that. Now go examine yourself.

well, in any case: Savage. Ew. if nothing else for having made more than his share of “dead fish” comments himself…actually, a lot of parallels. “oh, haha, he’s just being funny, it’s okay because he’s critiquing hetnorms, not just being anohter misogynistic dickhead…”

Ohhhh, I am so sick and fucking tired of those. Like, WE GET IT, Dan. You’re like a vampire, except with female genitalia instead of garlic.

oh EW. i never liked the fucker, haven’t read him in years; but had no idea he’d become a Bushbot…

wait, am I irony-impaired? seriously?

well, in any case: Savage. Ew. if nothing else for having made more than his share of “dead fish” comments himself…actually, a lot of parallels. “oh, haha, he’s just being funny, it’s okay because he’s critiquing hetnorms, not just being anohter misogynistic dickhead…”

not.