Try here, here, here, here, and here, to start. – zuzu

I never knew Saletan was that much of Brooksian … I actually would say that he ventures into anti-Semitic territory with his misrepresentation of how Jews think about certain issues.

Has Saletan otherwise shown any signs of anti-Semitism? I actually don’t know much about him — for all I know he could be Jewish …

Encouraging everyone in poor position to be a parent to abort, working to pressure people not to have children they couldn’t afford on their own, forcing abortions on the unwilling–that would be extreme, that would be pro-abortion, that would be something that cried out for a compromise position. – dragonsmilk

Maybe the political problem of the pro-choice movement is that we are the compromise position then? Those in the media, who by training have a reflexive desire to think in Hegelian “objective” terms about there being “two sides to every issue” and a “compromise position in between” make us out to be a strawman, pro-abortion version of ourselves as we must be on one side? And in this environment, especially when ill informed consumers of media assume that media to be taking our side, is it any wonder that the majority of people think there should be an abortion compromise exactly between the “pro-life” and “pro-choice” positions — and since the pro-choice position is itself a compromise, the “compromise” people think would be “fair” is necessarily tilted toward the pro-life side?

While some argue that having anybody be “pro-abortion” as you use the term would disgust people right into the arms of the pro-life movement, perhaps it would be better for our side if there really was a “pro-abortion” movement (rather than just a straw-movement used to frighten people into the pro-life camp) that way we could be the moderates?

In general, I wonder to what degree the Republican’s constantly throwing bones (if no meat, so as to keep them hungry and wanting more) to their base so the base remains rabid is done exactly to allow more moderate Republicans to position ourselves at the center? Perhaps the abortion debate, as I hinted at before, is a microcosm for what we Dems. should be doing in general? Should we, rather than being straw liberals used to scare moderates away from our party, actually nurture a true radical leftism in our country so as to position ourselves as the moderates?

You’ve got to adore the gall of a guy who tosses out the quote generally (and stupidly, in context, but that’s an entirely different matter) used to support the idea of Biblical inerrancy five sentences after telling a flat-out lie about what the Bible says.

It’s enough that these people show ridiculous priorities in the passages they cherry-pick, that they twist the meaning of so much, that they desperately look for anything to support their positions, ignore what doesn’t fit and pretend they’re the only ones who respect the whole thing. You would think that they could settle for doing that. But no, we need an absolute, unspinnable, unmitigated lie about an explicit statement that IS NOT THERE. And that goes against the heavy implications of several passagesthat do exist, but that’s nothing unexpected.

I am sick of these literalist assholes shitting all over the Bible. I am sick of them having a lock on piety the way the neocon numbskulls have a lock on patriotism, while the one shows the same regard for the ideas in Christian holy texts that the other shows for the welfare of their nation.

I love how all the pro-life people call their opponents anti-life and the pro-choice people call their opponents anti-choice. Can’t we find a middle ground, such as simply trying to reduce the total number of abortions?

Going back upthread a bit, but here’s what pro-choicers work hard for in order to reduce the unintended pregnancy rate and the abortion rate:

-Comprehensive sex education
-Affordable and available contraception
-Affordable and available healthcare, including pre-natal and well-baby care
-Aid to low-income families with dependent children, making it more feasable for low-income women to continue wanted pregnancies
-Wider availability of adoption services, including letting gay and lesbian couples adopt
-Emergency contraception (EC) available over-the-counter
-EC available in emergency rooms for rape survivors

Here’s what pro-lifers work for:
-Illegalizing abortion.
-Limiting abortion.
-Stopping sex education
-Allowing pharmacists to refuse to dispense EC
-Blocking EC from hospital emergency rooms
-Cutting aid to low-income people
-Crisis pregnancy centers that lie to women in order to convince them to give birth, and promise to aid them, then cut all help off when the child is a year old

So please do tell me who’s trying to find a middle ground, who’s actually trying to prevent the need for abortion, and who’s just digging their heels in.

Obviously it’s a load of crap, I’m just wondering how they justify this.

In Dan Simmons’ “Hyperion Cantos” there’s another interpretation: that Abraham was testing God – that is, any god who wouldn’t stop the knife from harming Isaac wouldn’t be worth worshipping. – Ledasmom

So … why did God command him to sacrifice Isaac in the first place? And at what point would Abraham have stopped (assuming here that he’s not willing to kill his son just for the sake of figuring out what this God dude is all about)? And isn’t it kind of ludicrous to play chicken with an omnipotent being?

What woman wants to be married to a man who not only wants her to give birth all the time whether she wants to or not, but could care less if she dies doing so? Do their wives have any self-respect?

That is exactly why anyone who cares about the status of women is very concerned about the status of girls and young women.

The wives obviously have little self respect as you and I understand it and frame their value only in relationship to serving a man. Millions of girls and young women are being brought up either in homes where they are horribly abused, exploited and/or indoctrinated. Men like this asshat prey on such women and hate social services or any person/agency who tries to interfere with the way in which they treat ‘their women’.

The fundies operate among the working class. As a woman in a male dominated field — the trades, I meet fundies all the time. Although most are respectful on a business level, I’ve dealt with some who have refused to do business with me. If that were it alone, I’d chaulk it up to any number of reasons, but usually the doubting of my decision making, a preference to defer to other males they think may have influence over me (a long search indeed), or a plainly and uncalled for disrespect and an unexplanable withdrawl of bid/proposal/appointment(upon learning I am the head of the company) — all these or a few working together are a pretty good hint.

It gives me comfort to know that a) they know their views are not mainstream and go against the grain of truth they see everday — which must cause them great discomfort and s) they are cowards and cannot even garner the kahunas to tell me their stupid views to my face.

If the woman knows she will die if she has the child, doesn’t it then become suicide NOT to have the abortion? What to do, what to do??? – Michelle the Red

That is why in Jewish law a woman in such a position must have an abortion — to do otherwise would be a suicide (although probably it would be considered ok because anyone having to choose between their own life and even the life of a fetus could fairly be described as “as distressed as Saul” which is the standard in Jewish law for when suicides are considered not to have sinned — which pretty much applies to all suicides) — you know, the whole “choose life” thing that fundies are always mis-applying.