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	<title>Comments on: Why You Should Marry a Doormat*</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 10:18:49 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Lorelei</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61866</link>
		<dc:creator>Lorelei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:57:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61866</guid>
		<description>Oh, sweet God, Vincent, no-one&#039;s here to convince you to stay with your wife. But by the comments by you that I&#039;ve seen here, she&#039;d probably be better off by getting rid of you.

But if you do want to reverse your ridiculous thought pattern about this, your best bet is to see a therapist, not ask a blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, sweet God, Vincent, no-one&#8217;s here to convince you to stay with your wife. But by the comments by you that I&#8217;ve seen here, she&#8217;d probably be better off by getting rid of you.</p>
<p>But if you do want to reverse your ridiculous thought pattern about this, your best bet is to see a therapist, not ask a blog.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Clarke</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61865</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Clarke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61865</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;when you all reach my age&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Heh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>when you all reach my age</p></blockquote>
<p>Heh.</p>
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		<title>By: Starfoxy</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61864</link>
		<dc:creator>Starfoxy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:42:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61864</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s the thing: if Vincent&#039;s wife was happy with her career there would (probably) be no problem at all. As far as I can tell from his comments they are unhappy because she wants to stop working. They aren&#039;t unhappy because she has a career, they&#039;re unhappy because she has a career she hates. 
Noer&#039;s article is saying that *even if she were happy with her career* there would still be a problem with the marriage, and that the problems would go away if women didn&#039;t value their careers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s the thing: if Vincent&#8217;s wife was happy with her career there would (probably) be no problem at all. As far as I can tell from his comments they are unhappy because she wants to stop working. They aren&#8217;t unhappy because she has a career, they&#8217;re unhappy because she has a career she hates.<br />
Noer&#8217;s article is saying that *even if she were happy with her career* there would still be a problem with the marriage, and that the problems would go away if women didn&#8217;t value their careers.</p>
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		<title>By: Vincent</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61863</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Aug 2006 03:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61863</guid>
		<description>I have to divorce myself from this blog.  With the problems my wife and I have been having, after reading Michael Noer&#039;s article a feeling of panic overcame me with the thought that I had made some tragic error in marrying a career oriented woman.  It is quite frankly not something that had occurred to me before.  I came here in the hopes of hearing persuasive arguments to the contrary.  Instead I got belittled and attacked, but have not heard a single persuasive argument that would assuage my fear. I hope and pray that when you all reach my age you are not confronted with the abyss that faces me now.  Good luck to you all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to divorce myself from this blog.  With the problems my wife and I have been having, after reading Michael Noer&#8217;s article a feeling of panic overcame me with the thought that I had made some tragic error in marrying a career oriented woman.  It is quite frankly not something that had occurred to me before.  I came here in the hopes of hearing persuasive arguments to the contrary.  Instead I got belittled and attacked, but have not heard a single persuasive argument that would assuage my fear. I hope and pray that when you all reach my age you are not confronted with the abyss that faces me now.  Good luck to you all.</p>
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		<title>By: Vincent</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61859</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Aug 2006 02:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61859</guid>
		<description>In response to you April, to make up for my wife&#039;s lost paycheck if she were to become a stay at home mom I would have to take on more than three jobs.  Her paycheck is significant, but if she were to stop receiving it even if I took on three jobs we would experience a step down in our standard of living.  By the way I would happily work three jobs and have suggested as much to my wife.  I am presently seeking a part time teaching position in addition to my current work, although, I&#039;ll be honest I don&#039;t like the idea because it takes me away from my kids and she is not around to make up the difference. So the kids get cared for by essentially a stranger.  Not a good option in my book.  My wife doesn&#039;t want to move the kids around and that is her reason for not returning to our &quot;home&quot; state.  My kids are still relatively young so its not an argument I am buying.  I have a friend who was career military who had three kids within five years of graduating from West Point.  That was 20 years ago and he has moved his family 12 times in that span.  Two of his three kids are in college, one at MIT another is at UVA and the third graduates from high school next spring.  We have moved once since my kids were born.  They will adjust.  Her reluctance to move is not reasonable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to you April, to make up for my wife&#8217;s lost paycheck if she were to become a stay at home mom I would have to take on more than three jobs.  Her paycheck is significant, but if she were to stop receiving it even if I took on three jobs we would experience a step down in our standard of living.  By the way I would happily work three jobs and have suggested as much to my wife.  I am presently seeking a part time teaching position in addition to my current work, although, I&#8217;ll be honest I don&#8217;t like the idea because it takes me away from my kids and she is not around to make up the difference. So the kids get cared for by essentially a stranger.  Not a good option in my book.  My wife doesn&#8217;t want to move the kids around and that is her reason for not returning to our &#8220;home&#8221; state.  My kids are still relatively young so its not an argument I am buying.  I have a friend who was career military who had three kids within five years of graduating from West Point.  That was 20 years ago and he has moved his family 12 times in that span.  Two of his three kids are in college, one at MIT another is at UVA and the third graduates from high school next spring.  We have moved once since my kids were born.  They will adjust.  Her reluctance to move is not reasonable.</p>
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		<title>By: Vincent</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61857</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Aug 2006 02:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61857</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;The substantive law is easily learned, but the abilities to take and defend a depo, draft a pleading, stand up in court and persuade a judge, open to a jury, examine a witness, and negotiate a settlement; those skills take years to learn and are worth far more than familiarity with the law of the jurisdiction.&lt;/em&gt;

How do you draft a pleading without being familiar with the procedural law of the jurisdiction?   Do you do mostly Federal or State court work?  How long have  you been practicing law and how many laterals has your firm hired from other jurisdictions with little or no Federal Court experience?  How big is the firm you work for?  I have never worked for a big firm and medium and small firm practice is radically different.  Your attempt to minimize my past success is a transparent effort to minimize my loss of career advancement thereby mitigating the damages imposed upon my career by the sacrifices made to accommodate my wife&#039;s career.  You&#039;re arguing irrelevant points.  At the time we left I was starting to bring in more business than I had in the past.  How much more would I have brought in?  I don&#039;t know but in the last year there I brought in about 18 new clients.  In the year before I had brought in only 6. At my present place of employ I am starting to bring in new clients, three this year so far, but the fee split is less, a third of a third.  In my prior locale it was 50% of a third.  I am not going to convince you of the merits of Mr. Noer&#039;s article.  But my experience is very clear.  I made more there then, than I do now, here.  My skill level is no less.  I am older and therefore not as attractive to firms and I don&#039;t have a &quot;book of business&quot;, at least not a significant one.  

As far as the language is concerned, you are correct, Lawyers curse worse than sailors.  Does that mean its attractive or appealing.  NO it is not.  We work in a profession that is generally reviled.  When I graduated from law school I promised I would change that one person at a time.  So I avoid use of that kind of language as best as I can.  I am not perfect in that regard.  And by the way I won&#039;t end up a drunk, because I don&#039;t drink.    

Finally your last sentence-It sounds like the back story is more complicated-- what did you mean by that?  
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The substantive law is easily learned, but the abilities to take and defend a depo, draft a pleading, stand up in court and persuade a judge, open to a jury, examine a witness, and negotiate a settlement; those skills take years to learn and are worth far more than familiarity with the law of the jurisdiction.</em></p>
<p>How do you draft a pleading without being familiar with the procedural law of the jurisdiction?   Do you do mostly Federal or State court work?  How long have  you been practicing law and how many laterals has your firm hired from other jurisdictions with little or no Federal Court experience?  How big is the firm you work for?  I have never worked for a big firm and medium and small firm practice is radically different.  Your attempt to minimize my past success is a transparent effort to minimize my loss of career advancement thereby mitigating the damages imposed upon my career by the sacrifices made to accommodate my wife&#8217;s career.  You&#8217;re arguing irrelevant points.  At the time we left I was starting to bring in more business than I had in the past.  How much more would I have brought in?  I don&#8217;t know but in the last year there I brought in about 18 new clients.  In the year before I had brought in only 6. At my present place of employ I am starting to bring in new clients, three this year so far, but the fee split is less, a third of a third.  In my prior locale it was 50% of a third.  I am not going to convince you of the merits of Mr. Noer&#8217;s article.  But my experience is very clear.  I made more there then, than I do now, here.  My skill level is no less.  I am older and therefore not as attractive to firms and I don&#8217;t have a &#8220;book of business&#8221;, at least not a significant one.  </p>
<p>As far as the language is concerned, you are correct, Lawyers curse worse than sailors.  Does that mean its attractive or appealing.  NO it is not.  We work in a profession that is generally reviled.  When I graduated from law school I promised I would change that one person at a time.  So I avoid use of that kind of language as best as I can.  I am not perfect in that regard.  And by the way I won&#8217;t end up a drunk, because I don&#8217;t drink.    </p>
<p>Finally your last sentence-It sounds like the back story is more complicated&#8211; what did you mean by that?</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61792</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61792</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Lawyer’s&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Vincent, I&#039;ve been practicing law for almost at long as you, in both state and federal courts.  I&#039;ve commented here before that I grew up on a construction site and, my more formal writing notwithstanding, I swear like a guy from the framing crew in person.  But in my experience, that&#039;s not uncommon among lawyers.  Most of the warstories I have heard and told at the water cooler begin either, &quot;so this fuckin&#039; guy ...&quot; or &quot;here&#039;s the latest bullshit story ...&quot;  

What I don&#039;t expect from lawyers is plain grammatical error, like confusing the plural with the possessive: the former makes us look insensitive and boorish, which is sometimes true, but the latter makes us look stupid, which is a much more serious matter for one of the three traditional &quot;learned professions.&quot;

Also, Zuzu has a point about transferrable skills.  The substantive law is easily learned, but the abilities to take and defend a depo, draft a pleading, stand up in court and persuade a judge, open to a jury, examine a witness, and negotiate a settlement; those skills take years to learn and are worth far more than familiarity with the law of the jurisdiction.  My firm takes in people who are radically changing practice areas, and we only knock them back a year or two in the progression.  I have even seen people move from transactional to litigation without going back to square one.  It sounds like the back story is more complicated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Lawyer’s</p></blockquote>
<p>Vincent, I&#8217;ve been practicing law for almost at long as you, in both state and federal courts.  I&#8217;ve commented here before that I grew up on a construction site and, my more formal writing notwithstanding, I swear like a guy from the framing crew in person.  But in my experience, that&#8217;s not uncommon among lawyers.  Most of the warstories I have heard and told at the water cooler begin either, &#8220;so this fuckin&#8217; guy &#8230;&#8221; or &#8220;here&#8217;s the latest bullshit story &#8230;&#8221;  </p>
<p>What I don&#8217;t expect from lawyers is plain grammatical error, like confusing the plural with the possessive: the former makes us look insensitive and boorish, which is sometimes true, but the latter makes us look stupid, which is a much more serious matter for one of the three traditional &#8220;learned professions.&#8221;</p>
<p>Also, Zuzu has a point about transferrable skills.  The substantive law is easily learned, but the abilities to take and defend a depo, draft a pleading, stand up in court and persuade a judge, open to a jury, examine a witness, and negotiate a settlement; those skills take years to learn and are worth far more than familiarity with the law of the jurisdiction.  My firm takes in people who are radically changing practice areas, and we only knock them back a year or two in the progression.  I have even seen people move from transactional to litigation without going back to square one.  It sounds like the back story is more complicated.</p>
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		<title>By: April</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61785</link>
		<dc:creator>April</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61785</guid>
		<description>i know that in the 1950&#039;s, my grandfather had THREE jobs to support his stay-at-home wife and 2 kids.  so, the answer is obvious, vincent.....you offer to take up more than one job to compensate for your wife&#039;s lost paycheck in order to ease the transition and hopefully help in your situation in regards of the &quot;D&quot; word.  you have to realize, also, that sometimes a wife can feel so backed into a corner that she doesn&#039;t know what else to say to make her husband HEAR her...and divorce pops up as an alternative to listening to her voice (what&#039;s the point in sticking around with someone who was always so supportive only to have them suddenly stop listening to you?).  i&#039;m very curious as to why she refuses to move back (as vincent has stated in just about every one of his posts)...is there trauma there?  is it about the comfort of your children (not having to move them around)?  if you don&#039;t have that answer...you are not communicating.  if you are not communicating, you two will not work anything out.  the most constructive thing i can offer here is marriage counselling.  on a personal note, i would appreciate it if you, vincent, would stop blaming an &quot;ism&quot; that is clearly not YOU or your WIFE and see that your situation was born of the decisions you and your wife have made.  hey, i&#039;ve made some pretty dumb decisions, but i don&#039;t blame anyone but myself for what i&#039;ve done.  take up some accountablilty and get another job or two or three or four, whatever it takes, to take care of your family!  you want to be the &quot;man&quot; in the forbes article, then DO SO!  don&#039;t complain about your situation to a bunch of people who have very little sympathy for someone who criticizes their beliefs.  and to hide behind insults and then request to be taken seriously?  i wouldnt blame anyone for being turned-off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i know that in the 1950&#8242;s, my grandfather had THREE jobs to support his stay-at-home wife and 2 kids.  so, the answer is obvious, vincent&#8230;..you offer to take up more than one job to compensate for your wife&#8217;s lost paycheck in order to ease the transition and hopefully help in your situation in regards of the &#8220;D&#8221; word.  you have to realize, also, that sometimes a wife can feel so backed into a corner that she doesn&#8217;t know what else to say to make her husband HEAR her&#8230;and divorce pops up as an alternative to listening to her voice (what&#8217;s the point in sticking around with someone who was always so supportive only to have them suddenly stop listening to you?).  i&#8217;m very curious as to why she refuses to move back (as vincent has stated in just about every one of his posts)&#8230;is there trauma there?  is it about the comfort of your children (not having to move them around)?  if you don&#8217;t have that answer&#8230;you are not communicating.  if you are not communicating, you two will not work anything out.  the most constructive thing i can offer here is marriage counselling.  on a personal note, i would appreciate it if you, vincent, would stop blaming an &#8220;ism&#8221; that is clearly not YOU or your WIFE and see that your situation was born of the decisions you and your wife have made.  hey, i&#8217;ve made some pretty dumb decisions, but i don&#8217;t blame anyone but myself for what i&#8217;ve done.  take up some accountablilty and get another job or two or three or four, whatever it takes, to take care of your family!  you want to be the &#8220;man&#8221; in the forbes article, then DO SO!  don&#8217;t complain about your situation to a bunch of people who have very little sympathy for someone who criticizes their beliefs.  and to hide behind insults and then request to be taken seriously?  i wouldnt blame anyone for being turned-off.</p>
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		<title>By: zuzu</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61784</link>
		<dc:creator>zuzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61784</guid>
		<description>So?  You have no transferable skills or something?  So you take a hit of a year or so, but how did you get 10 years of practice wiped out if you were actually any good?  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So?  You have no transferable skills or something?  So you take a hit of a year or so, but how did you get 10 years of practice wiped out if you were actually any good?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Clarke</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61783</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Clarke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/08/23/why-you-should-marry-a-doormat/#comment-61783</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;By the way is ZuZu a lawyer? And she called me an “asshole”? That’s nice, but not deserved. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

And the reason for Vincent&#039;s career miasma becomes more apparent. I imagine him played by the guy who played the priggish vice principal in Boston Public:

Vincent: &quot;Hey, are you fellows heading out for lunch? Mind if I join you? Where are you going?&quot;

New Guy In Office: &quot;PF Changs!&quot;

[other attorneys groan almost audibly, roll eyes, glare at New Guy]

Vincent: &quot;Oh, let&#039;s not go there. PF Changs&#039; food is too spicy. It inflames my pyloric valve. Why don&#039;t we all go to Applebees?

Just Made Partner: &quot;Because PF Changs sucks, but Applebees sucks worse.&quot;

Vincent: &quot;You know, attorneys really shouldn&#039;t use language such as that. It is ignorant and obnoxious. But you&#039;re smart, though naive. You&#039;ll learn the ways of the world soon enough. So are we on for Applebees?&quot;

Just Made Partner: &quot;Why, um, SURE. We&#039;ll go to &lt;em&gt;Applebee&#039;s&lt;/em&gt;. But the thing is, um... oh. I &lt;em&gt;don&#039;t have room in my Range Rover&lt;/em&gt;. Why don&#039;t you meet us there, Vermint... I mean Vincent.&quot;

[suppressed giggling]

Vincent: &quot;Sounds like a plan!&quot;

[others depart]

Vincent, thinking, voiceover: I wonder why he did that air quote thing with his fingers when he said &#039;meet us there?&#039; Oh, well. Bloomin&#039; Onion, here I come!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>By the way is ZuZu a lawyer? And she called me an “asshole”? That’s nice, but not deserved. </p></blockquote>
<p>And the reason for Vincent&#8217;s career miasma becomes more apparent. I imagine him played by the guy who played the priggish vice principal in Boston Public:</p>
<p>Vincent: &#8220;Hey, are you fellows heading out for lunch? Mind if I join you? Where are you going?&#8221;</p>
<p>New Guy In Office: &#8220;PF Changs!&#8221;</p>
<p>[other attorneys groan almost audibly, roll eyes, glare at New Guy]</p>
<p>Vincent: &#8220;Oh, let&#8217;s not go there. PF Changs&#8217; food is too spicy. It inflames my pyloric valve. Why don&#8217;t we all go to Applebees?</p>
<p>Just Made Partner: &#8220;Because PF Changs sucks, but Applebees sucks worse.&#8221;</p>
<p>Vincent: &#8220;You know, attorneys really shouldn&#8217;t use language such as that. It is ignorant and obnoxious. But you&#8217;re smart, though naive. You&#8217;ll learn the ways of the world soon enough. So are we on for Applebees?&#8221;</p>
<p>Just Made Partner: &#8220;Why, um, SURE. We&#8217;ll go to <em>Applebee&#8217;s</em>. But the thing is, um&#8230; oh. I <em>don&#8217;t have room in my Range Rover</em>. Why don&#8217;t you meet us there, Vermint&#8230; I mean Vincent.&#8221;</p>
<p>[suppressed giggling]</p>
<p>Vincent: &#8220;Sounds like a plan!&#8221;</p>
<p>[others depart]</p>
<p>Vincent, thinking, voiceover: I wonder why he did that air quote thing with his fingers when he said &#8216;meet us there?&#8217; Oh, well. Bloomin&#8217; Onion, here I come!&#8221;</p>
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