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  1. KnifeGhost
    KnifeGhost October 8, 2006 at 6:35 pm |

    Shit!

    I’ll DL it then catch up here.

  2. hanna joergel
    hanna joergel October 8, 2006 at 7:08 pm |

    Even more, I believe I read a comment by Jamie Bamber (or saw in a sneak peek?) that he was glad they “took the risk” to make him “fat.”

    But he looked like he was in a suit. When he didn’t have his shirt on, it was clear it was a body double. And he looked ORANGE the entire episode. What the frak? They have tanning beds on the Pegasus?

    I can nit and I can pick, but I love this show. I borrowed season one from the library this summer on a whim and was instantly addicted. Silver lining of moving closer to my aging parents…they have cable!

    I’m glad you started a pure BSG discussion here. I did a technorati search out of boredom earlier today and didn’t like the nature of most of the discussion. It seems like there’s lots of sloppy meta-analysis going on out there.

  3. If
    If October 8, 2006 at 7:14 pm |

    I have to agree that I was pretty peeved at the “fattening” of Lee, especially as a symbol for his “going soft”. I’m still sort of processing the whole bit about Starbuck and the child, both the non-consentual child in absentia bit and her bonding to both the child and the cylon father in the hospital. I was vaguely amused at the introduction of the middle-eastern undertone in the soundtrack after the arrival of the suicide bombers, just for the slow kids.

  4. nerdlet
    nerdlet October 8, 2006 at 9:35 pm |

    Yeah, good to have a separate thread, I was feeling entirely inappropriate.

    Much like the scene of Fat!Lee stuffing his face with space donuts and whining. That was pretty embarrassing to watch.

    And are we just supposed to feel like Lee’s being a jackass, here? Being “physically and mentally” out of shape while most of humanity is being held in Cylon camps? He didn’t seem stressed, he just seemed bored.

    I’m glad you started a pure BSG discussion here. I did a technorati search out of boredom earlier today and didn’t like the nature of most of the discussion. It seems like there’s lots of sloppy meta-analysis going on out there.

    Would that be like the freakout over on the sci-fi boards: “I’M NOT WATCHING THIS SHOW ANYMORE BECAUSE OF THE LIBERAL ANTI-AMERICAN AGENDA?” ’cause that was pretty funny.

  5. Mandos
    Mandos October 8, 2006 at 10:21 pm |

    I expect TV to make the fat->lazy analysis and to stereotype stress-eating, so I wasn’t as offended by the Fat Apollo. Thought it was reasonably daring to make the Designated Beefcake Character fat.

    It’s clear from the teasers for future eps that, um, half the cast does NOT die. This suggests that Cynical Priest Cylon actually has another agenda from the rest of the Cylons.

  6. Blue
    Blue October 8, 2006 at 10:53 pm |

    The season premier did actually do some depressingly typical things with gender roles. The women are busy teaching, staying home with the baby, and frakking for favors while the men play sports, plot resistance, run the battlestars and do almost all the decisive action in the episode.

  7. Mandos
    Mandos October 8, 2006 at 10:59 pm |

    True. I have to admit that this bothered me too. I am hoping that they pay us back.

    SPOILER FROM FUTURE EP TEASERS

    The teasers looked to me like they would—there’s a scene of Laura humiliating Gaius coming up.

  8. PLN
    PLN October 8, 2006 at 11:00 pm |

    Still, even if they were lazy in other ways, it was reasonably bold to turn the good guys into not-even-remotely-subtle stand-ins for the Iraqi insurgents. I mean, Tigh as Zarqawi? That was … something.

  9. Mandos
    Mandos October 8, 2006 at 11:07 pm |

    I thought that Caprica Sharon as trusted confidante and eventual agent of Adama Sr. was pretty interesting.

  10. Raincitygirl
    Raincitygirl October 8, 2006 at 11:10 pm |

    The show hasn’t done a damn thing with Lee that actually works since the Pegasus arc ended. He’s become a joke. The other characters make fun of him! At this point, maybe the writers should just kill Lee off and save Jamie Bamber’s salary. I don’t actually WANT them to get rid of Bamber, but if all they’ll give him to do is to stand around in a fat suit being the butt of jokes, what’s the point? They lost interest in giving Lee any kind of consistent characterisation before Black Market even aired.

    And did anybody else feel irritated that Lee’s good ideas were treated with contempt because he was the one making them? He had some damn good points, and Adama was acting like he was advocating caution because he was a lazy coward. Maybe he’s advocating caution because risking both warships and what’s left of the fleet on a possibly suicidal rescue attempt isn’t Adama’s best idea ever? And he made various other perfectly valid points, but all the characters acted so dismissively of him it felt like the writers were condoning it.

    I just, Lee may be a pissy, high-maintenance, Type A bastard, but he used to be more than a glorified extra standing around wearing padding. He used to have a consistent personality. It was a great premiere in most other respects (if a little anvilicious at times)

  11. KnifeGhost
    KnifeGhost October 9, 2006 at 1:17 am |

    They lost interest in giving Lee any kind of consistent characterisation before Black Market even aired.

    Word. WORD.

  12. Raincitygirl
    Raincitygirl October 9, 2006 at 2:37 am |

    PLN Says:
    October 8th, 2006 at 11:00 pm
    Still, even if they were lazy in other ways, it was reasonably bold to turn the good guys into not-even-remotely-subtle stand-ins for the Iraqi insurgents. I mean, Tigh as Zarqawi? That was … something.

    Nope. They weren’t even attempting subtlety. I mean, yeah, there were parallels with other historical conflicts (for one thing, the Cylons’ legalistic insistence on filling in all the paperwork correctly before carrying out mass executions was very WWII). But the biggest parallels were with Iraq. I mean, come on, they even referred to the Colonials as “insurgents”. First time I heard that word I thought I’d misheard. Next time I heard a character say it, I was all “Holy shit, they’re deliberately using a word which is heavily associated with Iraq.” I mean, ‘insurgents’ and ‘insurgency’ are not generic catch-all terms. I actually wished they’d dialled it down a notch. There were a few times when I felt like Moore & Eick were banging on the viewers’ heads with an anvil. I mean, they’ve got guts, but I’m hoping they’re a little less heavy-handed with the political symbolism in future episodes.

    Mandos Says:
    October 8th, 2006 at 11:07 pm
    I thought that Caprica Sharon as trusted confidante and eventual agent of Adama Sr. was pretty interesting.

    I really hope we get some flashback scenes explaining how they developed this best buddies relationship. Because 16 months ago Adama was having her dragged back to her cell after she knowingly let a Cylon on board Galactica along with the refugees. How the hell did they get from that to coffee and long chats and major trust in little more than a year?

    Mind you, I was wincing at the foreshadowing of the Adama/Sharon convo about trust and also the Helo/Sharon convo where she’s all “I won’t betray the uniform.” Because eventually the truth about Hera will come out (I’m totally spoiler-free, so that’s just an assumption) and Sharon will Flip. the Fuck. Out. At this point I’m desperately hoping Adama wasn’t in on the dead baby plot because if he’s known all along Hera was alive and still talked about trust, she’ll kill him. Slowly.

    I have no idea what the writers will have her do when she finds out. She’ll be a complete wild card. I know, I know, the fake death and the fallout when the truth comes out are great from a plot POV, but the fact that by the time the Cylons arrived and the Fleet jumped away she had already gained some trust but they still hadn’t given her back her baby is pretty skeevy. I mean, Anders has spent the past four months on New Caprica being manly and blowing shit up, while she’s been on Galactica for four months. But they hugged! Which suggests that well before the Cylons came and the Fleet jumped away, Sharon had developed normal, friendly relations with some humans and was considered fairly trustworthy. Tigh has also been on New Caprica since the Occupation started, but he was only flipping out because Sharon was the liaison officer, not because she was out of her cell. So clearly she must’ve been out of her cell for a while during that missing year.

    So, um, why did they have to keep lying about Hera? They thought the Cylons weren’t coming back, they thought they could trust her, so why didn’t they just bloody tell her? I mean, yeah, she would’ve been deeply pissed off, but if they’d TOLD her and given back the baby, as opposed to her presumably finding out for herself in the future, she probably would’ve gotten over it fairly quickly. Even from a Realpolitik view it doesn’t make much sense. I mean, they’re gonna permanently alienate their best intelligence asset (which, given that they can’t send humans undercover to spy on Cylons, would suggest she’s pretty damn valuable).

    I know, I know, the writers wanted the drama. But it makes Roslin & Co. look rather stupid and politically short-sighted, taking decisions for plot reasons that heighten the drama but aren’t convincingly explained so the audience knows why they did something and why they thought it was the best option. Anyway, she’s on New Caprica now, and doesn’t know yet, but when she finds out, all hell will break loose. I don’t have to be spoiled to know that.

    I’m actually a little surprised she wasn’t pregnant again. I mean, it’s been 16, maybe 17 months since Hera died. You’d think they’d have started trying. And no, I don’t want the character pregnant again, because it’s so limiting. The actress spent half of Season 2 sitting in the cell set rubbing her fake belly and not DOING anything. But it surprises me that they haven’t addressed the issue. Unless of course, Cottle did a tubal ligation or hysterectomy along with the C-section, and told her it was medically necessary because of all the complications she had. One assumes they would prefer her infertile. And from a dramatic POV it’s better that way, but I hope they mention it. She and Helo are married, so presumably they’ve had sex a few times in the past 16 months.

  13. KnifeGhost
    KnifeGhost October 9, 2006 at 4:19 am |

    And no, I don’t want the character pregnant again, because it’s so limiting. The actress spent half of Season 2 sitting in the cell set rubbing her fake belly and not DOING anything.

    See Claire on Lost. A season and a half of “mah baybeh!”

  14. Raincitygirl
    Raincitygirl October 9, 2006 at 11:46 am |

    4) Tigh made a reference to Roslin being in charge once they get rescued, but she just said nothing. Later, in the Great Escape-style scene at the prisoner massacre, Roslin called Zarek “Mr. Vice President.” If that’s the case, and Baltar is removed from office, Zarek takes over. Expect Tigh, terrorist, to resist having Zarek, terrorist, as President. I do think the Roslin-Zarek relationship is going to get interesting, especially if they both escape together.

    Bwah! You’re absolutely right. If they follow the legal procedure, Zarek’s the next president. That could get *interesting*. And yes, Tigh is sure to start throwing stones despite living in a glass house himself.

  15. Gabriel Malor
    Gabriel Malor October 9, 2006 at 11:50 am |

    3) Speaking of which, does he feel guilty that he narced on Col. Tigh’s election fraud, now that things have gone so badly?

    Perhaps this is what’s motivated Gaeta to get over his crush on Baltar and start working for the resistance.

  16. Mandos
    Mandos October 9, 2006 at 12:51 pm |

    “1) How could it be a surprise that Starbuck had an ovary removed? I dunno, she spends time unconscious in a Cylon hospital used for breeding and wakes up with a mysteriour scar where her reproductive organs are, and they don’t have Doc Cottle give her a physical? You’d think they’d want to check for Cylon implants at the very least.”

    She knew this, I thought. What she didn’t know is whether her ovary survived the destruction of the breeding farm.

    Look: this is why I think it can’t possibly be her baby. The entire point of the “Midsummer Night’s Dream” story sequence was that the Cylons are having a devil of a time breeding, as God commanded them (whoever God is in this plot), the next generation of “God’s children”. Consequently, they discovered that True Love could bring it about, between Helo and Caprica Sharon. It’s extremely unlikely that Leoben’s sperm could have just worked on Starbuck’s ovary, given this framework of success. I mean, the whole point is that Caprica Sharon’s child is The Saviour, being the only successful mating.

  17. Mandos
    Mandos October 9, 2006 at 12:55 pm |

    I thought that the point was that all of them were experimental and none of them actually worked to produce human-Cylon hybrids. Otherwise we’d have seen them.

  18. If
    If October 9, 2006 at 12:57 pm |

    Just how does the resistance NOT know that their source is Gaeta (and can we discuss my new crush on him? Especially with the longer, curlier hair?) when there are very few people with access to the kind of documents they’re receiving, and at the top of that list is Gaeta?

    One thing is that it’s going to force me to revise my theory that Gaeta is a cylon. Or at least, come up with some suitably obtuse reason for his current behaviour, if he is.

  19. Mandos
    Mandos October 9, 2006 at 1:00 pm |

    In fact, I’d venture to say that Leoben is doing this to see if *he* can succeed where Caprica Sharon went rogue and ultimately (apparently) failed, by brainwashing Starbuck into devotion with him. It’s sick and it’s supposed to be a reminder that not all Cylons quite grok the concept of human love the way that the Sharons and now one of the Sixes do.

  20. Darleen
    Darleen October 9, 2006 at 1:02 pm |

    I think it’s silly to try and read a Cylon=America Humans=Iraqi terrorists parallel. Oh, I realize that a lot of people have leapt to that conclusion based on the deliberately challenging words that the writers have tossed in.

    For anyone who has followed BSG from the beginning, the writers are deliberately provocative while leaving a lot of the “is it/is it not” questions unresolved. I think people are so used to be forcefed “messages” from music/movie/tv they can’t help but try to read every show as The.Big.Message.

    BSG deals more with universal themes then just trying to do cheap gotcha politics. Gaius is no “Saddam”. Indeed, the invasion, his “surrender” then continuing to stay as President smacks more of Vichy and French collaborators (Galen’s rant about lynching them). Certainly the canvass covered trucks taking hostages to an empty quarry to be slaughtered is straight out of WWII. The Roman conquest of Israel, The British occupation of India or the Palestinian are of the old Ottoman Empire, Nazi occupation of France — you can find all sorts of parallels to all of that in the two BSG Friday episodes.

    You can even find a cautionary tale of what future life would be like under an Islamist regime.

    More than anything, BSG deals in the law of unintended consequences.

    And oh…. for the cliched whining about “gender roles” for the season opener… Hello? Just what do you think is going to happen 50,000 remaining humans they think they’ve found a new planet to settle? Worry about over-population and global warming? This was even something Roslin had to confront when stats showed that if she allowed abortion on demand to continue on the fleeing ships, stats showed humans would cease being PERIOD within a short time. Individual rights v species survival.

    Lee didn’t come out of his “near death” experience better for it. It only seems to have exacerbated his issues with always having been in his father’s shadow. What I like best is that the long story arcs allow for characters to evolve…for good or bad and back again.

    For all the flaws, BSG is still the best show on TV.

  21. Mandos
    Mandos October 9, 2006 at 1:14 pm |

    Actually, I take this arc as a critique of Euston-manifesto-style liberal interventionism. Galactica Sharon and Caprica Six thought that they could bring a New Way of Being to humans and Cylons first by occupying and then by integrating the populations. Peace and flowers would then abound on New Caprica.

    However, for the other Cylons to go along with this, God’s Will would have to be fulfilled. Since they can’t do breeding farms anymore…they have to resort to other tactics. Humans are smart enough to see through this and resist. The newly malevolent and cynical among the Cylons take advantage of this.

  22. nerdlet
    nerdlet October 9, 2006 at 1:49 pm |

    And oh…. for the cliched whining about “gender roles” for the season opener… Hello? Just what do you think is going to happen 50,000 remaining humans they think they’ve found a new planet to settle?

    But they aren’t settling down and raising babies to save the human population. Starbuck was a captive and was given a magical baby – she wasn’t breeding for the cause. Roslin is teaching children though she’s proven to be the best leader (I mean, has she ever been wrong? ever?), gets a few minutes of screentime showing she’s working with the resistance and little else. (On the plus side, at least she has a job, which nobody else seems to.) Ellen Tigh is just ineffectively screwing a Cylon and apparently has no life skills at all aside from ineffectively screwing men. In the webisodes, Duck’s wife doesn’t want to settle down and repopulate the planet, she wants to settle down and make babies because she’s bored with the whole invasion thing. Cally is the only one who seems to be purposefully breeding and raising the baby.

    All of that makes it seem more like an oversight than anything. And especially in Starbuck’s case, where they CLOSE the season on a shot of her saying “fight ‘em until they can’t,” implying that yes, she will be one of the leaders of the rebellion… oh, no, she’s just been sitting in one room for the past four months, neither making babies nor fighting Cylons.

  23. Mandos
    Mandos October 9, 2006 at 1:52 pm |

    They couldn’t resist the turnabout, in the case of Starbuck. I mean, you have to admit that the first scene with her was pretty symbolic.

  24. piny
    piny October 9, 2006 at 1:59 pm |

    (I mean, has she ever been wrong? ever?)

    Well, the forced-pregnancy thing. But then, Baltar played her. And the stolen-election thing. But then, Baltar was running against her. The stolen-baby thing was horrible, and I strongly suspect that it will blow up in her face. No one on this show is more wrong than when they are trying to draw a border between themselves and the enemy.

  25. Mandos
    Mandos October 9, 2006 at 2:16 pm |

    “Or you could read the way the invasion played out, and their bewilderment at the failure of the human population to love them, as a critique of the neocons’ flowers-and-sweets expectations.”

    True, but these are not contradictory readings. The other Cylons are the neocons, disappointed that they didn’t get flowers and puppies. Six and Sharon are the handwringy liberals.

  26. nerdlet
    nerdlet October 9, 2006 at 2:26 pm |

    On the abortion ban – I thought the same thing, zuzu. They really hammered in the limited resources thing, and suddenly everyone’s supposed to be reproducing and filling up the ships with babies?

    I did like that there wasn’t actually an abortion debate or anything, though – here’s the people who are for it, here’s the people who are against it, and we already know all the arguments. Whew.

    Well, the forced-pregnancy thing. But then, Baltar played her. And the stolen-election thing. But then, Baltar was running against her. The stolen-baby thing was horrible, and I strongly suspect that it will blow up in her face. No one on this show is more wrong than when they are trying to draw a border between themselves and the enemy.

    Yeah, but she still went ahead and gave the girl an abortion, which meant that she knew what she was doing was wrong. And the stolen election – she was still right, though! A vote for Baltar is a vote for a shivering half-mad half-chihuahua! Plus firing squads and secret police.

    Either of those still seemed to be the least-lousy decision she could’ve made, as far as the show has displayed. She could’ve repealed the ban after she won the election, and how many people died on New Caprica and Cloud Nine because of Baltar’s stupidity? Even if she’s not right, she’s more right than anyone else.

    The stolen magicbaby #1, yeah, somehow I forgot about that. That will not end well – especially with Sharon apparently being totally trusted by Adama now, and all, except for that one little detail.

  27. nerdlet
    nerdlet October 9, 2006 at 2:33 pm |

    2) Just how does the resistance NOT know that their source is Gaeta (and can we discuss my new crush on him? Especially with the longer, curlier hair?) when there are very few people with access to the kind of documents they’re receiving, and at the top of that list is Gaeta?

    Crush! He is looking good, and he was fantastic in the scenes where he immediately bolts from the office/where he confronts Gaius about the orders.

    And Tyrol’s talk about stringing him up freaked me out – first because I’d forgotten that Tyrol is kind of a psychopath with serious anger management issues, and second because it’s embarrassing that these people are too dumb to figure out who the contact is. But then, with Tigh’s “yes! suicide bombing our immortal enemy is an awesome plan! keep it up until we’ve killed off all the remaining humans!” speech… sigh.

    They couldn’t resist the turnabout, in the case of Starbuck. I mean, you have to admit that the first scene with her was pretty symbolic.

    The domesticity? I don’t know. I liked the fork through the throat and her creepy smile, but mostly it just irritated me. I suppose it’ll take a few weeks to see exactly what they’re up to.

  28. Kelly
    Kelly October 9, 2006 at 2:44 pm |

    But these are all completely true to their personalities. Roslin was a teacher before she was thrust into the presidency, and has admitted several times that she never wanted to be in politics. Sure, she’s going to end up the leader before the end of the season, but teaching children is familiar to her, and makes sense that she would go back to it after a pretty humiliating electoral defeat.
    Ellen Tigh having no skills besides sex? Well, have you seen the rest of the series? She’s pretty much a complete moron (and drunk) who will screw anyone to get her and her husband ahead. Cally? She is raising a child, but she’s also part of the resistance, and was pretty impressive facing off against Caprica Sharon in prison. As for the Starbuck? She’s killed five versions of her captor so far. I’m curious to see where the show goes with her ‘child.’ Frankly, my money’s on the child not being hers, or else Leoben would have offered her a DNA test by now.

  29. Kelly
    Kelly October 9, 2006 at 2:45 pm |

    That was in reply to comment #25 by the way, I forgot to add the quote in. Whoops!

  30. nerdlet
    nerdlet October 9, 2006 at 2:58 pm |

    Kelly – the series has been promoted as having a “gender-neutral” universe. In a gender-neutral universe, there’s little excuse for a character like Ellen Tigh even existing. Unless, I suppose, you also have a number of dumb men whose only power lies in manipulating women with sex. Which they don’t.

    Cally hasn’t been shown to have done anything with the resistance. She was brave against Caprica Sharon, but still, she didn’t actually *do* anything. Roslin *is* involved with the resistance, not just teaching, but they had very few scenes with her actually doing anything. And Starbuck, sure, she’s killing her captor over and over and I think the whole situation is pretty interesting (and cannot put my finger on exactly what it reminds me of) but she’s still a captive.

    I’m not objecting to what they’re doing in their situations – I’m objecting to the writers for portraying them in those situations in the first place. Roslin and Cally might be secretly kicking ass for the resistance, but if the only resistance scenes we see are 100% composed of male action-taking, how can we tell?

    Hell, even Caprica Six and Boomer, leaders of the revolution, are outnumbered by the other Cylons and don’t seem to be doing much of anything.

  31. Kelly
    Kelly October 9, 2006 at 3:29 pm |

    Hey, I’ve been rooting for Ellen Tigh to either be discovered to be a cylon, or to be offed by one, since she first arrived. No argument there.

    And while the society is gender-neutral when it comes to work and the military, they’ve all shown themselves to be weak when it comes to sex and love. Part of the weakness that is humanity. So I totally buy women (and unseen men who i’m sure exist) getting ahead using their looks and sexuality.

    And yeah, so far, it seems that it’s mostly been the men who have been involved in the actual resistance action, which is a little disappointing. But I have a feeling that will all change next week, especially with Sharon leading the Galactica brigade and Cally on the run from the cylons.

  32. nerdlet
    nerdlet October 9, 2006 at 3:33 pm |

    I hope so – wait and see, and wait and see. I watched the entire first two seasons within a month, not too fond of this whole weekly episode business. sigh.

  33. Tanooki Joe
    Tanooki Joe October 9, 2006 at 3:44 pm |

    Plus, just how much snack food does Pegasus have on board? Everyone’s complained about the food and the rationing, and suddenly, they have enough for Lee to get fat?

    I was wondering when mini-donuts became standard military rations.

    Expect Tigh, terrorist, to resist having Zarek, terrorist, as President. I do think the Roslin-Zarek relationship is going to get interesting, especially if they both escape together.

    I noticed this, and I hope they play this aspect up. Tigh, oh-so-ironically, has become the very thing he once held Zarek in such high contempt for. Interesting possibilities, no doubt.

  34. Mandos
    Mandos October 9, 2006 at 3:45 pm |

    “The domesticity? I don’t know. I liked the fork through the throat and her creepy smile, but mostly it just irritated me. I suppose it’ll take a few weeks to see exactly what they’re up to.”

    No no. That whole scene, until the forkstabbing, was a reversed rehash of what *she* did to *Leoben*. Especially the food business. Remember that she tormented him with food.

  35. Mandos
    Mandos October 9, 2006 at 3:49 pm |

    We’re supposed to have twelve “tribes” of Cylons. Let’s count how many we *know* we have yet:

    1. Blonde Ladies/Sixes
    2. Sharons
    3. Sports Jacket Guys
    4. Leobens
    5. Reporter Ladies/Xena
    6. Priest Dudes
    7. Doctor Guys.

    Any I’ve missed? We’re still missing five remaining types.

  36. nerdlet
    nerdlet October 9, 2006 at 4:05 pm |

    No no. That whole scene, until the forkstabbing, was a reversed rehash of what *she* did to *Leoben*. Especially the food business. Remember that she tormented him with food.

    Ooh. I’ll take your word for it – it’s been months since I’ve seen that. I just vaguely remember the torture, him shoving her against the wall, and his creepy, creepy knowledge of her background.

    And yes, those are all the Cylon models we know of so far.

  37. Kelly
    Kelly October 9, 2006 at 4:07 pm |

    Ha ha, I had the same problem with Deadwood, having seen the first two seasons on dvd.

    The other five haven’t been revealed yet. Though I’m betting another one of the colonists will find out that they’re a sleeper agent this season.

  38. Raincitygirl
    Raincitygirl October 9, 2006 at 4:28 pm |

    I actually found Roslin’s decision on abortion to be counterproductive. While on the one hand, you have a population problem if the colonists don’t start reproducing, on the other hand, you have a HUGE problem with resources. While they were on the fleet, they had limited space, limited fuel, limited food. If they were to start encouraging more babies prior to getting to Earth, they would have reduced the length of time they could survive. Moreover, you also have a situation where trained and capable pilots are in short supply (and, presumably, so are birth-control methods), so that the pregnancies of pilots could not be allowed to continue — for the good of the group.

    Good point. However, another good point would be that if they think they have enough supplies and want women in non-essential, non-combat jobs to have babies, maybe they should try the carrot first before they whip out the stick.

    In 2.17 it was implied that Cottle* has performed quite a few abortions in a quiet way, hence Rya asking for him by name when she snuck aboard. Which would imply that quite a few female survivors of childbearing age, when finding out they’re pregnant after a holocaust nearly exterminated their entire species, does not feel there’s any hope for the future. If Roslin wants the birth rate to go up, she needs to start with non-coercive measures to encourage people to breed. Like, say, talking up the value of having children in her speeches, and getting daycare co-ops organised so mothers can get a break, and announcing that pregnant women and nursing mothers will get extra food rations, and announcing that in times of scarcity, priority for medical treatment etc will be given to children.
    \
    Because if you’ve got a woman who’s just found out she’s pregnant, and the women she sees around her who already have kids are having to prostitute themselves as the only way to get antibiotics for their sick kids (as in 2.14), that’s a hell of an incentive either to not have children at all, or if she already has them, not have more.

    Yes, they want to preserve their population’s diversity, and yes, SOME babies are a good idea. But as you said, they have limited resources even when said resources are being distributed equitably (which at times they’re not). So take positive steps to encourage women to have kids. And encourage people who don’t want to have kids right now to do sperm or egg donation (particularly if they’re in high risk jobs). Stick ‘em in the freezer and wait until you have more resources to thaw ‘em out and start asking for surrogates..

    * We’ll leave aside the irony of Cottle being perfectly willing to do a forced abortion on a woman who wants to stay pregnant. Overall I respect the character, and I really liked his stance in 2.17. But his actions in 2.13 and 2.18 continue to grate a little.

  39. hanna joergel
    hanna joergel October 9, 2006 at 5:19 pm |

    Would that be like the freakout over on the sci-fi boards: “I’M NOT WATCHING THIS SHOW ANYMORE BECAUSE OF THE LIBERAL ANTI-AMERICAN AGENDA?” ‘cause that was pretty funny.

    Well, there was that. And then there was Darleen.

    And oh…. for the cliched whining about “gender roles” for the season opener… Hello? Just what do you think is going to happen 50,000 remaining humans they think they’ve found a new planet to settle? Worry about over-population and global warming? This was even something Roslin had to confront when stats showed that if she allowed abortion on demand to continue on the fleeing ships, stats showed humans would cease being PERIOD within a short time. Individual rights v species survival.

    So clearly the Cylons had the right idea with the farm. They could even get Baltar to run an analysis and set up a breeding schedule to make sure the greatest genetic diversity is maintained. It would be like Battlestar Gilead because, if you’re being realistic, that would be what they would have to do. They have to save the human race!!1! [/snark]

  40. hanna joergel
    hanna joergel October 9, 2006 at 5:31 pm |

    Sorry, that last comment was out of line.

    I just listened to the podcast while doing my weekly cleaning and Moore commented on Kate Vernon, the actress who plays Ellen Tigh. It seems she had trouble filming those scenes with Stockwell for various reasons. He made a big point about how we are watching how these characters react to their circumstances (echoed above on this thread). Given how they have created her, how else would the character Ellen act? Take up arms?

    But he seems to have brushed aside any objections she had. On the other hand, Moore had cut the scene of Caprica Six getting shot, but restored the footage at the absolute insistence of James Callis (Baltar). Those concerns he took seriously.

    * We’ll leave aside the irony of Cottle being perfectly willing to do a forced abortion on a woman who wants to stay pregnant. Overall I respect the character, and I really liked his stance in 2.17. But his actions in 2.13 and 2.18 continue to grate a little.

    With Sharon? Those number 8’s seem to suffer all kinds of indignities that are “excused” by their not being human.

  41. Mandos
    Mandos October 9, 2006 at 6:18 pm |

    The Baltar actor was probably right about restoring the Caprica Six shooting. It kind of put an edge on the whole human/Cylon distinction—she can afford to object as often as she likes, he can’t.

    And Moore is right about Ellen Tigh. For better or for worse, she’s been constructed as the woman who uses sex to social climb. We’ll see if we ever get any male characters whose role is the same.

  42. hanna joergel
    hanna joergel October 9, 2006 at 6:28 pm |

    Sorry Mandos,

    Moore didn’t explicitly make that point about Ellen Tigh, but about the episode in general. That was where my elaboration took over.

  43. Darleen
    Darleen October 9, 2006 at 6:43 pm |

    #25 nerdlet

    Roslin is teaching children though she’s proven to be the best leader

    She conceded the election. What? She was to start overthrowing Gaius? She was the secretary of Education and as far as the PEOPLE decided..they wanted to stay and settle New Caprica.

    See…that’s what BSG does…it questions all forms of government, including democracy.

    And we don’t know yet what Kara’s full reaction to Kasey will be (or even if Kasey is what Leoben claims)… Kara has been doing all she can to resist her No Exit meets I Love Lucy nightmare, including killing Leoben five times in four months.

    And this! from your #32

    the series has been promoted as having a “gender-neutral” universe. In a gender-neutral universe,

    Gender NEUTRAL universe? Where have you gotten that? God lord … Men and women can pursue their talents to where it will take them without giving up their genders. And the cultures even among the colonies differed, hence the squabbling among the more religious Gemini with others AND the conflict about abortions for minors.

  44. Darleen
    Darleen October 9, 2006 at 6:47 pm |

    hanna

    Can we maybe leave aside viewing everything from a contemporary political lense and look at the general idea of a people who are reduced to fleeing to survive and what their reactions will be?

    Why do you think there’s this thing called “Baby Boomers?”

  45. Darleen
    Darleen October 9, 2006 at 6:52 pm |

    Mandos

    From early on Ellen has never been a sympathetic character … she’s grasping, shallow and manipulative. For heaven’s sake, give her power and she’s Gaius Baltar. Gaius has been an utterly amoral humper since the pilot episode which is why the Cylons were able to annihilate 99% of the human race. Is there anymore a more stereotypical ruled-by-his-little-head male character than Baltar?

  46. hanna joergel
    hanna joergel October 9, 2006 at 7:01 pm |

    Darleen,

    May I quote myself? From comment number three. This morning.

    I’m glad you started a pure BSG discussion here. I did a technorati search out of boredom earlier today and didn’t like the nature of most of the discussion. It seems like there’s lots of sloppy meta-analysis going on out there.

    I thought those there things called “baby boomers” had something to do with the “end” of a war. I assumed, from our example of Callie and Galen (as well as the couple from the internet episodes from the summer) that there was a baby boom-let on New Caprica. What with supplies running low and all, I’m assuming whatever they use for birth control is running low as well. I’d also assume that Doc Cottle wouldn’t be giving abortions if he’s out of antibiotics.

    Not every fertile woman in America had a baby after WWII.

  47. Mandos
    Mandos October 9, 2006 at 7:12 pm |

    Oh, true. Gaius Baltar *is* that character, I guess. Oversexed male with much more ambition than responsibility. With power, though.

  48. Darleen
    Darleen October 9, 2006 at 7:44 pm |

    Not every fertile woman in America had a baby after WWII

    ??? So? Enough did that it created a spike in the demographics.

    The colonialists decided that New Caprica is where they wanted to put down roots, to build a new world. That would include babies, and not just because they’ve “run out of birth control.”

  49. nerdlet
    nerdlet October 9, 2006 at 7:45 pm |

    She conceded the election. What? She was to start overthrowing Gaius? She was the secretary of Education and as far as the PEOPLE decided..they wanted to stay and settle New Caprica.

    See…that’s what BSG does…it questions all forms of government, including democracy.

    She doesn’t have to start overthrowing Gaius. Given that she is involved in the resistance and still gives a damn about fighting the Cylons, I suggest that she be shown… being involved in the resistance and fighting the Cylons.

    Gender NEUTRAL universe? Where have you gotten that? God lord … Men and women can pursue their talents to where it will take them without giving up their genders. And the cultures even among the colonies differed, hence the squabbling among the more religious Gemini with others AND the conflict about abortions for minors.

    The show was advertised as having a gender-neutral universe and the producers bragged about having male and female characters in an equal amount of roles of equal importance. This is not my bizarre imaginary take on it (because I think they’ve failed in their goal), this is how the producers presented it and how a lot of fans see it – remember how wacky it was that Starbuck was a chick? Notice how nobody freaks out over Starbuck’s behavior because of her gender or questions Roslin’s authority because of hers? The use of “sir?” Here’s a recent article describing the universe as “gender-blind.” That’s what’s meant by the phrase, and I’m not sure what makes you think it’s incorrect.

    The colonies do likely differ in their beliefs, but we haven’t seen anything to show that some of them are less gender-blind: even the Gemini leaders have been female.

  50. nerdlet
    nerdlet October 9, 2006 at 7:52 pm |

    From early on Ellen has never been a sympathetic character … she’s grasping, shallow and manipulative. For heaven’s sake, give her power and she’s Gaius Baltar. Gaius has been an utterly amoral humper since the pilot episode which is why the Cylons were able to annihilate 99% of the human race. Is there anymore a more stereotypical ruled-by-his-little-head male character than Baltar?

    Gaius, though hardly a sympathetic character, is a doctor and apparently the most brilliant scientist in their known universe, useful enough that Helo was willing to give up his life for him. Ellen has no abilities aside from sex. Gaius does/did have power and was elected president because of his charisma, whereas Ellen… I think she once got her way using manipulation, but I can’t remember it being about anything terribly important. He doesn’t use sex to get what he wants, so yeah, pretty different all around.

  51. Darleen
    Darleen October 9, 2006 at 8:37 pm |

    Maybe, nerdlet, we have different definitions of “gender-blind”

    If you mean, allowing individuals to pursue their own talents and to be recognized for use, yes… the BSG human colonialists value the talents of the individual regardless of gender. But if you want the genders to be interchangeable or the same, then BSG is going to disappoint because you have men and women who love, hate, lust, fall from grace and actually :::gasp!::: have babies! And WANT to have babies!

    And “gender-blind” is used by the actor Jamie Bamber to describe the way the military is structured, not the whole of the 12 colonies. These are characters who have no problem with being men and women.

    Gaius uses power to get sex … the flip of side of Ellen. You think he’d have all those babes in his bed on the Presidential ship if he wasn’t President?

    Ellen uses her sex to get power. She blinds Tigh and her manipulation of him to seize power in “Resistence” by declaring martial law and disbanding the Quorum was fairly important.

  52. nerdlet
    nerdlet October 9, 2006 at 9:50 pm |

    If you mean, allowing individuals to pursue their own talents and to be recognized for use, yes… the BSG human colonialists value the talents of the individual regardless of gender. But if you want the genders to be interchangeable or the same, then BSG is going to disappoint because you have men and women who love, hate, lust, fall from grace and actually :::gasp!::: have babies! And WANT to have babies!

    Dude, this is not what I said. I said that it’s been presented as a gender-blind show in terms of how society, not just the military, is structured (even the religious conservatives have female leaders), and I think it has fallen short of that (for other reasons, I’m not judging this season until we get a few more episodes). I am not opposed to the fact that there might be some female characters who want babies or to have sex with men or whatever else you think is essentially female.

    I am opposed to the fact that at a point when is it far more important for humanity to actually be fighting than making babies, and on a show that has a lot of competent female characters who understand that fact, all the previously-competent female characters are put in positions where they’re helpless and useless and/or obsessed with babies – or, even when they’re shown to be involved in something, as Roslin is shown to be involved in the resistance, they don’t get screentime to show what they’re doing.

    These are characters who have no problem with being men and women.

    Define “being men and women,” then. Plus, how that works when half the characters are robots.

    Gaius uses power to get sex … the flip of side of Ellen. You think he’d have all those babes in his bed on the Presidential ship if he wasn’t President?

    That’s the opposite of Ellen, yes. Someone who has power over someone else and uses that to get sex is different from someone whose only power is in sex – not to mention that Ellen apparently doesn’t have that power in the first place. The only common element is that they’re characters who have sex, and most people on the show do that.

    And he did cheat on 6 before he was President, and he’s all British and stuff, so I don’t think he had a problem getting women when he was just a famous doctor.

  53. nerdlet
    nerdlet October 9, 2006 at 9:58 pm |

    zuzu, I basically agree with everything you said, plus I have some musings on the various rape issues that I’ve never taken to conclusion. (What the hell was with the last names, how careless was that?)

    If I had any idea where to look for all the early ravings about how gender-blind the show is, I’d link ‘em. That’s the reason I have higher expectations for BSG – they made a big deal about all that, and I care more when they fall short than when something like Firefly does (though damn, Firefly’s had blatant carelessness as well).

  54. Mandos
    Mandos October 9, 2006 at 10:03 pm |

    Here’s a question to bake your sci-fi noodles: why do the Cylons always download into the same kind of model? Why wasn’t Caprica Six resurrected as a Leoben, for instance?

  55. Mandos
    Mandos October 9, 2006 at 10:06 pm |

    You can excuse the Sharon renaming thing by invoking an attempt to distinguish Galactica Sharon and Caprica Sharon. However, it doesn’t explain Ellen *Tigh*. Maybe if Adama Sr. and Laura Roslin ever get together, we’ll have Admiral Roslin? We’ll see.

  56. nerdlet
    nerdlet October 9, 2006 at 10:24 pm |

    Maybe if Adama Sr. and Laura Roslin ever get together, we’ll have Admiral Roslin? We’ll see.

    “Goodbye, future Mr. Dr. Girlfriend!”

    “Goodbye, future Mrs. The Monarch!”

    I’m sure I’m horribly misquoting, but ah, Venture Brothers.

  57. Darleen
    Darleen October 9, 2006 at 11:01 pm |

    all the previously-competent female characters are put in positions where they’re helpless and useless and/or obsessed with babies

    Roslin is teaching and is part of the resistence. Hardly “useless”. Calley has a baby… hardly useless or “obsessed.”

    The obsession arc is what is happening with Kara and TO her. Has her competence been compromised because she hasn’t escaped Leoben yet? For four months she has been his captive and he hasn’t turned her. I’d say there’s a lot of competence/toughness in that.

    BTW zuzu, if life is so darned great “egalitarian” as a Cylon skinjob, then why are they so desperate to be fully human as to reproduce naturally? Does biological pregnancy mean society is NOT “egalitarian”? We don’t know if all the colonies were “egalitarian” culturally, we only know the military culture is. And certainly Admiral Cain was greatly admired and respected by Adama and everyone else before we knew she had gone Queeg on everyone. I even think it was interesting to note that she approved the use of rape against her Cylon captives.

    Re: downloading to the same model…I would think that would make for psychological consistency. Memories and experience by a Six suddenly awakening in a Leoben might likely create a psychological break. I don’t think a story arc of Goodbye Cylon Charlie would work.

  58. Raincitygirl
    Raincitygirl October 10, 2006 at 1:08 am |

    The various copies of a model all seem to be fairly similar in temperament. One Six is not exactly like another, but they all start from the same basic template, like identical twins (or in this case, identical quintrillionuplets). So presumably it would be difficult to download the ‘wrong’ consciousness into a body.

    I can fanwank Ellen taking her husband’s last name as her being socially ambitious and basking in the reflected glory of being a colonel’s wife. In 1.09 Tigh tells Roslin that his wife’s name is “Ellen. Ellen Tigh.” So presumably it’s not entirely taken as read that a married woman would take her husband’s last name if he tells Roslin her name instead of just letting her assume. And Sharon taking her husband’s last name makes sense because Sharon Valerii was an alias. But like other viewers, I’ll flip my lid if Kara is now Mrs. Anders.

    One mistake they made in the premiere was calling Cally “Cally Tyrol.” I’m pretty sure Cally is her last name, not her first. I think her first name is Jane or Jenny or something. Everybody has always referred to her as Specialist Cally, and nobody else gets called by their rank and then just their first name.

  59. Armagh444
    Armagh444 October 10, 2006 at 4:21 am |

    Nerdlet says:

    Roslin is teaching children though she’s proven to be the best leader (I mean, has she ever been wrong? ever?), gets a few minutes of screentime showing she’s working with the resistance and little else.

    Okay, I haven’t read all the way through the thread yet, so I may be coming to the party a little late on this one, but I’m going to throw my fifty cents (adjusted for inflation) into the kitty in any case.

    Roslin, if you’ll recall, was Education Minister before the original Cylon attacks. Now, this doesn’t mean she’s an automatic school teacher, but they did establish last season (via a flashback conversation with the then President of the Colonies) that she despises politics, that she thinks it’s corrupt, and given her druthers, she would rather be teaching. Now, of course, there’s the argument that the time since the attack has changed all that, and to an extent I think it has, but those who decry her return to teaching and disavowal of all things political aren’t taking into account the potential impact that rigging the election had on her. One thing that has been established throughout the show is that her character is possessed of unimpeachable integrity – to the point where, on being informed of the deceit, Baltar refuses to believe it because Roslin simply wouldn’t do that sort of thing. Now, consider how someone of that sort of integrity would react on being put into a position where they feel it is necessary to do something utterly abhorent to everything they stand for? Is it any wonder, really, that an individual in that situation might want to retreat from a field he or she perceives as fundamentally corrupting to return to work that is seen as not carrying that potential risk?

    Nerdlet says:

    And especially in Starbuck’s case, where they CLOSE the season on a shot of her saying “fight ‘em until they can’t,” implying that yes, she will be one of the leaders of the rebellion… oh, no, she’s just been sitting in one room for the past four months, neither making babies nor fighting Cylons.

    Well, it’s rather hard to do either when one has been in prison for the last four months. And when you get right down to it, it shouldn’t be all that big a surprise that Starbuck would be one of the first people that the Cylons would take into captivity, nor should it be all that shocking that she would be one of the ones they would keep there.

    As far as the overall “gender-blindness” of the show is concerned, by the standards of the genre, it’s doing a damn fine job. Are there things we can quibble about? Of course. But I learned a long time ago that there is such a dearth of good TV out there that when a show comes along that’s written well, acted well, directed well, and not afraid to tackle difficult, potentially controversial issues, I thank the gods (not making a BSG reference there, I’m actually a polytheist of long-standing) for being nice enough to drop a present in my lap.

  60. nerdlet
    nerdlet October 10, 2006 at 12:53 pm |

    Well, it’s rather hard to do either when one has been in prison for the last four months. And when you get right down to it, it shouldn’t be all that big a surprise that Starbuck would be one of the first people that the Cylons would take into captivity, nor should it be all that shocking that she would be one of the ones they would keep there.

    I’m not complaining that Starbuck was taken captive in the universe itself. I’m complaining that she was taken captive in the meta-universe, when it was meta-implied that she would be one of the leaders of the resistance – blaming the writers, not the characters, I guess.

    It’s plausible that Roslin might wish to retreat from the resistance, certainly, but it’s made clear that she *is* working with them in some capacity, but her scenes are still mostly just teaching children and getting captured. Again, mostly meta – though I really can’t imagine her sitting back and not trying to wrestle control of the resistance from crazy-eye-Tigh. She may no longer have official authority but neither does he (iirc), and he’s the one whose awesome plan is to slowly kill off humanity.

    And Darleen, what zuzu said.

    Raincitygirl, Cally’s last name was Henderson.

  61. Socraticsilence
    Socraticsilence October 11, 2006 at 7:07 am |

    So, am I the only one who see’s the season setting up a big redemption arc for Baltar, I mean think about it, if he’s removed from the presdiency (which the “scenes from future episodes” thing suggests) there’s really only one reason not to summarily execute him; the hail mary type act of genius thing (which quite frankly he hasn’t really shown in any episode ever in the series– think about it, he’s made a couple lucky guesses do too pyschosis, and the one thing he did produce, reliable cylon detection methods, he suppressed out of fear.)

    As for the gender equity, or lack there of, of New Caprica, I think it has something to do with the facts on the ground rather than any overarching sexism:
    1) Roslin’s best skill at this moment is as a teacher/ voice of reason (which is what she’s doing)
    2) Cally is basically providing food for the kid that the chief couldn’t provide (I honestly doubt that baby formula is a well stocked commodity)
    3) As has been previously mentioned Starbuck is doing the best see can (Along with Zarek she’s the most logical person to keep imprisoned, well besides Anders)

    My biggest problem with Tigh’s tactics is that they’re fucking retarded (at least in terms of accomplishing anything other than killing/terrorizing collaborators) on what level does matching your single most vulnerable asset (humanity’s population) against your enemies strongest asset (Cylon immortality) make sense?

    My 3rd point raises my other objection: If the Cylon’s know enough about the events on Caprica to keep Starbuck imprisoned (though obviously beeding plays into this) why isn’t Anders locked up (Hell, he’s a far more accomplished terrorist than Zarek, at least in terms of Cylons)?

  62. Blue
    Blue October 11, 2006 at 3:42 pm |

    Except Starbuck isn’t currently imprisoned for terrorism or breeding. She’s there to fall in love. Well, and then breed.

  63. hanna joergel
    hanna joergel October 11, 2006 at 4:06 pm |

    Golly, when is Friday going to hurry up and get here already!

  64. Kelly
    Kelly October 11, 2006 at 4:32 pm |

    We don’t know yet why Leoben chose Starbuck as his potential love interest/sick plaything. As someone pointed out above, he is taunting her in similar ways that she did to him while she was torturing him.

    Also, this could be seen as another cylon experiment, a reverse of Season 1 with Helo. They’ve found that they can get a female cylon to get a human male to fall in love with her, now they could be trying the reverse. Sure, he’s using her because she’s a woman and has ovaries, but wasn’t Helo used the same way because he was a man and had a penis? And while they’ve had female cylon models fall in love, they haven’t had any male cylons yet, and maybe they’re trying that out to see how that works. The cylons don’t understand love or emotion, but desperately want to.

    Anyway, I don’t think Starbuck’s capture is the writers being gender-biased so much as they’re evening out what they did in Season 1.

  65. Blue
    Blue October 11, 2006 at 4:45 pm |

    Maybe I made this up in my head, but I thought Leoben explained himself in the season premier last week. He said he’d had a vision that he and Starbuck were in love. So, he’s trying to make that happen.

    And, of course, the Cylons now believe that love is the key to successfully making babies.

  66. Standard Mischief
    Standard Mischief October 12, 2006 at 1:11 am |

    Blue Says:

    The season premier did actually do some depressingly typical things with gender roles. The women are busy teaching, staying home with the baby, and frakking for favors while the men play sports, plot resistance, run the battlestars and do almost all the decisive action in the episode.

    Oh, come on! Explain to me how any of these things are out of character here. Laura is out of office and she was a teacher back on Caprica. Ellen Tigh is Ellen Tigh, and I don’t think Cally is gonna hand the Chief the baby and sign up to be one of the ones with semtex underroos.

    Tigh is the highest ranking human, Anders has 9+ months of being a resistance fighter back on Caprica, and the Chief has ascended himself up to the head of the labor union. Of course they’re the core group of insurgents. Anders’ second, Jean Barolay, is active in the resistance and I’m just sure you completely forgot about the second suicide bomber.

    And all this is in the framework of a show that had a female Admiral outranking Adama, A woman for President, female priests, and Starbuck (the BEST viper pilot, unless you count Kat) re-imaged as a woman. Yet one extra long episode without the quota and you are already whining. You’re as bad as those R’s saying “librial bias in the media, BSG is too much like Iraq” idiots.

    PLN Says:

    Still, even if they were lazy in other ways, it was reasonably bold to turn the good guys into not-even-remotely-subtle stand-ins for the Iraqi insurgents. I mean, Tigh as Zarqawi?

    Heh, you don’t want to have the show turn into another space opera, now do you? Visiting another planet in this weeks episode? To keep things exciting they turned the entire show upside down.

    Raincitygirl Says:

    I mean, ‘insurgents’ and ‘insurgency’ are not generic catch-all terms

    They seem to be created and added to the language as a “neutral” term that lies somewhere between “freedom fighter” and “terrorist”. Of course with the political discourse it didn’t exactly stay neutral for very long.

    zuzu Says:

    1) How could it be a surprise that Starbuck had an ovary removed? I dunno, she spends time unconscious in a Cylon hospital used for breeding and wakes up with a mysteriour scar where her reproductive organs are, and they don’t have Doc Cottle give her a physical? You’d think they’d want to check for Cylon implants at the very least.

    Good point. But at the tail end of Resistance Starbuck said that she “didn’t want to know”. Denial?

    2) Just how does the resistance NOT know that their source is Gaeta (and can we discuss my new crush on him? Especially with the longer, curlier hair?) when there are very few people with access to the kind of documents they’re receiving, and at the top of that list is Gaeta?

    Heck, if Baltar would have been stoned to death the moment he walked outside the security fence, how is Gaeta allowed to just roam around New Crapica City leaving the Pentagon Papers?

    4) Tigh made a reference to Roslin being in charge once they get rescued, but she just said nothing. Later, in the Great Escape-style scene at the prisoner massacre, Roslin called Zarek “Mr. Vice President.” If that’s the case, and Baltar is removed from office, Zarek takes over. Expect Tigh, terrorist, to resist having Zarek, terrorist, as President. I do think the Roslin-Zarek relationship is going to get interesting, especially if they both escape together.

    Perhaps Baltar asked for, and got Tom’s resignation. (Heck we still call Marion Barry “Mayor” out of protocol.)

    Darleen Says:

    I think it’s silly to try and read a Cylon=America Humans=Iraqi terrorists parallel. Oh, I realize that a lot of people have leapt to that conclusion based on the deliberately challenging words that the writers have tossed in.

    The fall of the Colonies evoked 9/11. Cally shooting Sharon evokes Oswald. Swearing in Laura Roslin evoked Lyndon B. Johnson.

    Don’t forget that the humans were torturing teh Cylons last season. The Humans=Iraqi terrorists parallel is there, but I don’t think it’s a sign of bias.

    nerdlet Says:

    All of that makes it seem more like an oversight than anything. And especially in Starbuck’s case, where they CLOSE the season on a shot of her saying “fight ‘em until they can’t,” implying that yes, she will be one of the leaders of the rebellion… oh, no, she’s just been sitting in one room for the past four months, neither making babies nor fighting Cylons.

    Umm, she’s been fighting the Cylons, she killed that stalker Cylon five times already. Shortly after being invaded, it looks like she got picked up and was locked into that apartment for brainwashing. You’ll notice too that Lebon is far to busy with his plaything to attend the Cylon meetings in Colonial One.

    nerdlet Says:

    I did like that there wasn’t actually an abortion debate or anything, though – here’s the people who are for it, here’s the people who are against it, and we already know all the arguments. Whew.

    Oh come on now! I’m strongly pro-choice and I could clearly see how every single pro-choice bogey man was trotted out without balance. She was afraid of her parents, she asked for asylum, that religious woman claimed she was her parents property, smuggled across between ships, etc. That episode was about the most bias one so far.

    zuzu Says:

    Jesus. I actually agree with Darleen. To an extent.
    I don’t think the show has come off as entirely gender-neutral. Surely, the military is structured so (though I don’t really understand why they use “sir” for gender-neutrality, since it has the effect of making the male gender the standard),

    What would you use instead of sir for gender-neutral?

    …except possibly for the Marines, who look to be nearly all-male. And the one command-level officer we saw who was female was sadistic and “well-connected,” implying that she was promoted over more deserving men.

    Huh? Are we talking about Cain or Master-at-arms Sergeant Hadrian?
    en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Hadrian

    Raincitygirl Says:

    One mistake they made in the premiere was calling Cally “Cally Tyrol.” I’m pretty sure Cally is her last name, not her first. I think her first name is Jane or Jenny or something. Everybody has always referred to her as Specialist Cally, and nobody else gets called by their rank and then just their first name.

    Cally Henderson, now Cally Tyrol.

  67. Armagh444
    Armagh444 October 13, 2006 at 8:52 am |

    nerdlet says:

    I’m not complaining that Starbuck was taken captive in the universe itself. I’m complaining that she was taken captive in the meta-universe, when it was meta-implied that she would be one of the leaders of the resistance – blaming the writers, not the characters, I guess.

    Honestly, I don’t think you’re giving the writers enough credit. I’ve been mulling this over quite a lot, and I think I may have figured out what the writers are doing with Starbuck. I think they’re using her captivity and the various ways that she has to find of resisting while still in captivity (because, of course, Starbuck is as likely to stop fighting the cylons as she is to stop breathing) as part of a comparative study in how human beings respond to extreme oppression. Tigh, Anders and Tyrol represent one means of resisting. Their methods are the blunt instrument, the archetype of physical resistance. Starbuck, while still very physical (having killed Leoban five (?) times), she has also adopted methods that are more mental, more reliant on deft and subtle means of using her horrifying situation to undermine the cylons. That, at least, is where I think where they’re going.

    Remember at the end of the last episode where she takes Cassie’s hand and also takes Leoban’s? Did you have a moment of “what the fuck” in response to that too? That’s the natural response, since it seems completely contrary to her character to surrender so suddenly and so completely to circumstance. I don’t think she has surrendered. I think where the writers are going to go with that is toward her using deceit to get Leoban to think she’s relented, so that she can get in a position where she can do real harm to the cylons. Not a bad idea on her part, especially since it has the potential to cause substantially more harm than anything Tigh, Anders, and Tyrol are doing.

    So, why have Starbuck be the one in captivity?

    Honestly, I don’t think it has anything to do with the prototype of the woman as passive. Nor do I think it has anything to do with the actions of Tigh and his group.

    In part, I think Starbuck’s captivity has to do with her sex, insofar as Leoban’s obsession with her would not exist – would likely wouldn’t – if she weren’t female.

    Beyond that, however, I think the key issue is that Starbuck has hurt the cylons in ways that no one else has. If you look back through the series, who has undermined the cylon cause in quite as many effective ways as Starbuck? Who escaped the farm and made sure it was destroyed? Who captured and tamed the raider? Who retrieved the arrow of Athena? Who was able to penetrate the defenses around Caprica not once but twice? And the list goes on. Given all of that, it shouldn’t be the least bit surprising that the cyclons who take her first and try to co-opt her first. And given the character’s nature, as demonstrated through the course of the series, it’s not the least bit surprising that she would find new ways to resist. “Fight until we can’t fight any more.”

    Socraticsilence says:

    So, am I the only one who see’s the season setting up a big redemption arc for Baltar

    I think there’s absolutely a very good chance that may be where they’re going. And it would fit too. The writer’s haven’t followed the original series to any major extent, but there are certain thematic elements and certain character elements they’ve carried over. In the original series, there was a redemption arc for Baltar, and I think that’s one aspect they may well adopt for this series. And based on where they’ve been so far, I think this redemption arc is likely to be better executed and more compelling than the one in the original series.

  68. archive : s0metim3s  | Frakking blogs | October | 2006

    […] e blogdimensions are interesting, and funny. A small fragment from the lengthy thread at Feministe: I take this arc as a critique of Euston- […]

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