I thought that the purity ball video would be enough to skeeve me out all day long. Then I read Cary Tennis’s latest column on Salon.
The question is simple enough: A woman is talking to her friend, and the friend tells her that her boyfriend told her not to take public transportation while wearing “party clothes.” The woman wonders if the boyfriend is being controlling or simply protective.
Cary goes on and on about the messages we send with our clothes, and the difference between our ideal world and the world we live in. He basically asserts that while it’s never a woman’s fault if she’s assaulted, the reality is that women don’t have the right to wear whatever we want. And then he says this:
There is something to be said for being invisible. For the city is also a stage, occupied by actors trying to become real. Suffocated by the sheer numbers around us as we sit on the buses and subways day after day, we sometimes feel that we are less real than others, less powerful, less important and respected; we dream of doing something to take some of that power and visibility away from them. So we attack them, take their money and spend it, take their credit cards, take their lives.
How do we pick our victims? We pick the ones who catch our eye, the ones whose bright colors enrage us, whose sexual attractiveness fills us with resentment and anger.
Who will be the victim? That pretty one there.
Perhaps this is what your friend’s boyfriend understands.
Perhaps it’s the use of the word “we” that creeps me out. It’s also the idea that attackers pick their victims based on who is the most attractive — in reality, most attackers pick the people who appear to be most vulnerable. But then he ends his reply with this:
I do not know the answers. I am just another man on the subway, invisible, hungry, alone, watching.
Ick.
Cary Tennis is everyrapist?
Yeah, that’s pretty disgusting. It’s also false: all the somber neutral fabrics in the world don’t offer protection.
As someone who was once crudely propositioned while wearing a plain headscarf, I believe that Cary Tennis is floating down a river in Egypt.
Why why why WHY do I always think that “This time, the reader responses at Salon will be different”? Their responses are creepier than Tennis’s.
Though I do love the idea presented that the boyfriend’s behavior is not about power, but about caring. Ummm….. right. Overprotective daddying in order to keep away those other bad men has nothing to do with keeping power…
gross.
i wish it was explained in health class, the difference between “i’m wearing this cute dress so people will think i’m cute and fun and attractive and maybe a cute guy will ask me out on a consensual date” and “i’m wearing this cute dress so that people will hurt me and make me feel bad about myself”. one is reality, one is snuff porn.
No, giant insulated parkas and -30C does, thank God for the incoming winter protective season;)
I just wonder what city Cary Tennis lives in because most people on my subway system are more enraged by the idiot with the backpack than the girl in the red dress. It is the vulnerable in society that are most likely to be attacked and they are often waiting by the stop for you to get off, never having met you but just going for the next available target. I’d argue that the boyfriend is clueless, with a clue he would simply offer to walk her to her door if necessary.
nod, smile, back away slowly.
yeah, “we.” okey-dokey. thanks for the tip, creep-o. mainly i take this as a warning to stay the hell away from Cary Tennis, but, you know: thanks, really.
That’s what the burqa is supposed to do, isn’t it? Make the woman wearing it invisible?
What’s a girl to do? If a woman takes a cab with a male driver (as many have), it seems fair to assume (in the land of Cary) that the cabbie will also be tempted to attack her based on her attire. And she is stuck in a moving vehicle that the cabbie controls. So, how exactly are we supposed to travel to and from events? Or do we just stay home unless we have a male chaperone to protect us?
I loathe Cary Tennis. In his first or second column on Salon, replacing Mr Blue, he wrote a lengthy reply to a woman who felt she was fat and unattractive. His reply amounted to: “Yeah, you are. Lose some weight or get used to it” – and mocked her for wanting to feel attractive when she was fat.
Anything to avoid the unacceptable conclusion that the only way to end rape is for men to stop raping people, I guess. Still, I’m surprised that someone would write something so…umm….COMPLETELY INSANE and publish it under his own name. “We pick the ones who catch our eye, the ones whose bright colors enrage us, whose sexual attractiveness fills us with resentment and anger.” He should really discuss that with a professional, because that sounds CRIZAZY, and the fact that he would WRITE it in a freaking COLUMN is even crazier. The moderately insane keep their scary thoughts to themselves.
Oh please. I’ve been harrassed by men on the street while wearing grungy sweatpants during finals week.
Sometimes Tennis tries way too hard to seem impartial and to make everything sound like some Gothic personal drama. It pisses me off when there really is a right answer and he just ignores it so he can go off on some totally narcissistic existential tangent.
Hmm… does this mean we ought to slash our faces with boxcutters? I mean, if rapists are looking for “the pretty one there,” the only answer is to disfigure yourself.
Or…wait…it’s coming to me… maybe men should just… not rape?
…But he’s a columnist at Salon. Do you want him to lose his job?
It might be just me, but it looks as though Cary Tennis is expressing his sympathy for the rapists. This reads like a “don’t worry fellas, I know exactly where you’re coming from” piece. This may not be what he meant at all, but that’s the impression that I get.
I don’t like male writers who try to justify or romanticize sexual violence against women. They have this ridiculously melodramatic approach to the entire phenomenon, and many of them seem to almost be jealous of what they perceive to be some sort of hyper-masculinity gone bonkers: the bruised male ego getting its revenge on some poor soul who just happpens to “enrage” the beastly, hairy-chested hero with her “sexual attractiveness.” It’s a very dismissive, disturbing approach.
They try to temper it by pitying the victim, shedding crocodile tears and giving other potential victims half-baked advice. Be invisible, don’t leave the house without a male guardian, don’t have a job, don’t have a life. And they say this because they know what the “real world” is like, they can relate to those “hungry” wolves on the subway, they’re just looking out for us, really!
How gross.
…the ones whose bright colors enrage us…
Yep. Rapists, muggers, and bulls all charge when they see red.
I always thought that what everyone on the subway and bus wanted was for everyone else on the subway and bus to shut the hell up, and the more optimistic might hope to arrive somewhere on time. Silly me.
One letter write got it right:
Actually, Cary got it right, too, when he said women don’t have the freedom to dress however we please, but he doesn’t understand why he got it right or why that’s a problem.
Fair point in #13, piny. : )
What I really want is to know how he ever got that job and how he keeps it. I swear to God, my neighbor’s cat could give better advice.
Come on, guys and gals — Cary does not sympathize with rapists. Saying he’s just another creep on the subway is a literary device, not his opinion. There is nothing wrong with wearing a coat or a shawl over a sexy outfit while on public transportation, it is just street smarts and doesn’t mean anything other than protecting yourself from psychos. I too have been harassed while wearing ugly baggy clothing, but it goes without saying that wearing sexy and flashy clothing DOES attract more attention from more people (that’s why women wear it).
Women really need to stop saying “maybe men should just stop raping” because that doesn’t solve anything — the men who agree with that statement would not rape anyone, and the rapists are very unlikely to change their attitude or behavior because a bunch of feminists tell them they should! They’re anti-social and violent to begin with, and their consciousness definitely is not amenable to being raised. Women need to take steps to protect themselves other than expecting human nature to change.
Personally, though, I go wherever I damn well please, wearing whatever the hell I want. Why? My license to carry a concealed weapon and my sweet little .45 give me that freedom. I don’t rely on men, either to protect me from rape or to graciously decide not to rape me. And heck, if I ever did encounter a woman being raped, I could help HER out too!
I’m convinced that nobody has ever taken his advice. It’s a cruel joke that Salon is and has been playing on us, and by “us” I mean the people that read his columns, which does not include me. So, more accurately, “y’all.”
Whenever I see crap like this, I think of a quote by Lewis Grizzard. It was something like, “Just because she’s dressed like she’s looking for sex doesn’t mean she’s looking for sex WITH YOU. She might be looking for sex with her boyfriend Harold, who’s arriving later.”
Anyway, I didn’t know what the fuck to make of this. Yeah, some people (my mother included) think that sexy clothes = sign stuck on your tits saying RAPE ME. But plenty of nonsexy dressed people get raped. Hell, the creepiest ogling I ever got was when I was covered from neck to ankles in a trench coat.
Cary just scored a 110 on my creep scale of 0 – 100. Yech!
You know, this is same conflation of a bizarre sense of male entitlement; a sad, sad view of men in general; prurience; and weird logic that my first boyfriend articulated when he told me that I should just stop holding out and have sex with him, because one in four women is raped and he wanted my first time to be with him rather than with some rapist that I would undoubtedly attract when I went off to university and he wasn’t around to look out for me.
I didn’t buy that logic when I was sixteen, and I don’t buy the view now that a woman should allow men to make her feel unsafe now.
Go jennie!! That was awesome! :)
It’s all a subset of Cary’s odd “stream of consciousness and super-identification with the subject of his writing” style. Very, very, strange shit. I read it for entertainment value, not for advice.
I don’t think he’s exactly sympathizing with rapists (though I wouldn’t want to sit next to him on the subway); I think he’s trying to “get into the mind” of rapists, and failing miserably both in conclusion and presentation.
(p.s. I know Slate has a “shadow column” of Dear Prudence; I saw it once. It’s hilarious. Does anyone know where to find it?)
Oy. I’m an advice column junkie–yep, I still read Dear Prudence, even though she sucks–and I cannot read Cary Tennis. BECAUSE HE DOESN’T GIVE ANY GODDAMN ADVICE. He just babbles all “what if?” and “truth be told” and OH. GOD. JUST TELL THE PEOPLE WHAT THEIR PROBLEMS ARE AND WHAT THEY SHOULD DO.
..Oh, wait, you can’t do that. And your smarmy, pretentious-ass (dude: it’s an advice column, not a philosophy paper) writing covers for the fact that you don’t actually know how people do or should work out their problems.
I would appreciate if he gave some sort of figures to support his conclusion that pretty girls are more likely to get raped (um. NOT) or that random rape by a stranger is even all that likely to happen (yes it happens far too much, but rape by someone the victim knows is much more common, and anyway men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes and I don’t see anyone telling them “don’t wear a nice watch or you might get mugged for it”).
…Anyway. The bottom line is, everyone should ignore Cary Tennis and read the Vine because she is direct, to the point, and basically always right. Also: Shut up, Cary Tennis.
I can’t imagine what was going through Cary Tennis’ head when he wrote that column, but this lyric popped into mine when I read it.
When I first read the quote, I was misled into thinking this might be an example of genuine cognition. After all, the drive to fashion an identity and feel powerful is universal, but men and women are encouraged to channel that desire very differently. Maybe Tennis was trying to explain, badly, how things looked to the boyfriend–as a prelude to indicating how the girlfriend might remind him that she’s a big girl.
Then I read the entire column, and it really is just another stupid, entitled screed about how men are slavering beasts who can’t be held responsible for our behavior toward women, who probably deserve it anyway for dressing like sluts.
Well, f*ck you, Mr. Tennis. Pretentious, patronizing BS like this is why I stopped reading Salon, and all you’ve done is demonstrate that ignoring it continues to be the right choice.
Going to goth nights and such, I’ve worn some pretty flashy stuff–vinyl and corsets and vinyl corsets and whathaveyou. Stuff that’s associated with BDSM by strangers who tell me that wearing a choker means I want to be dominated. Stuff that’s associated with other kinks I have no interest in.
I would get on the bus to the station, take a 30-40 minute train ride from there, and pass through the busiest train station in the world. Then from there to the busiest intersection in the world. Can you guess how many problems I had? Zero. None.
On the other side of things, I would be in the same city wearing conservative clothes–long skirts and long blouses or even a heavy wool coat. I would be standing around minding my own business, sometimes on the phone. One very forward man asked “how much?” and others were a bit more subtle. “Why don’t we go somewhere?” Etc.
IT IS NOT WHAT YOU WEAR.
When I was dressed like a dominatrix, I was not treated like a prostitute. When I was dressed like a librarian, I was.
Go figure.
I admit it, I wasn’t quite convinced that “entitlement” was an apt accusation to be thrown around. I found it overused and the sort of thing that brings to mind the bad images of feminism. But this article, and something I came across yesterday completely changed my mind…
I’ve been a huge fan of the radio personalities Opie&Anthony since high school, but yesterday morning, I woke up to the most horrifying piece of bullshit ever, courtesey of them.
They were discussing attractive patients of dentists and the like. They were saying that attractive women who go under for things like root canals etc. are at an obvious risk for being groped or molested. Their logic was that a) she’s asleep and unaware, and b) she’s so hot, how can you not?
I was shocked, because it was the most asinine logic ever. Just because Jack left his lunch on a table in the middle of the office and walked away doesn’t mean I have the right to steal a french fry. Just because I’m under anesthetic and have nice breasts doesn’t mean you can touch them.
Entitlement can suck its own dick.
That’s pretty much my experience. When I dress sexy, I get a lot of annoying meat-head comments, but nothing that I find seriously threatening. The really dangerous ones, who get a thrill out of violating, go after you when you’re modestly dressed.
Eshie,
Well, yeah, but “attention” != “rape.”
I take public transit all over the place at all hours wearing whatever I happen to have worn out (work clothes, dance-practice clothes, jeans, going-out-dancing clothes, going-out-to-the-opera clothes, whatevs). I have no problem with being ogled, especially if I’m dressed up (I think the people who ogle me when I’m bundled in a sweater over my dance pants, all tired, grotty, and dishevelled are weird, but, hey, their thoughts aren’t hurting me, I can look away). People noticing if I’m displaying my cleavage don’t hurt me. If I don’t want them to look, I can cover up; if they don’t want to see, they can look away.
“Look at me!” does not mean “lay so much as one finger on me.” If a man goes out wearing a cut-away muscle shirt and nicely cut jeans, nobody takes that as an invitation to rape him or otherwise violate him. We may speculate as to his sexuality (if we’re impolite we may even do so aloud), we may simply admire the body as revealed by the clothes, but we don’t say “he’s asking to be attacked,” whether he’s carrying a weapon or not. We know he’s asking to be noticed, and we’re smart enough, when it comes to men, to know that there’s a difference between looking and attacking.
Not sure why this is so difficult when it comes to women, really.
So, if anything, we could say, “Dress sexy and talk loud! You’ll scare away more panty-sniffers and bullies that way than if you’re looking like you don’t want to cause any trouble!”
!!!
Y’know, I just had a brainstorm. Looking like you don’t want to cause any trouble may in fact be a so-called “red flag” to those looking for a victim. Because, hey, that girl in the long skirt and librarian glasses, the one taking up not-so-much room in the seat and trying to read, she’s not going to scream or struggle or anything, right? She’s the vulnerable one out of the group.
*shudder* This is so NOT victim blaming! (Mainly because that description could easily be me, just being me, any day of the week) I think I just got a glimpse into the mind of those that do assault, and it scared the bejeebers out of me!
I also posted about this.
I got horrified by the part where he explained that we wouldn’t complain if a naked woman were arrested, so how can we possibly expect an attractive woman dressed to go out to be not harrassed. Because the two are somehow the exact same.
I was also irritated by that one paragraph where he says “but really, women shouldn’t be raped just cause of what they look like”, surrounded by all the stuff saying “ladies, you know what to expect if you’re too female in public”. How dare you look attractive if it’s not for the express enjoyment of your SO?
I agree that on public transportation, we all just wish everyone would shut the Hell up and sit the Hell down.
I have a job where I can dress rather casually – I usually wear jeans and a tshirt or blouse to work, my outfits peppered with an occasional skirt. I have a train stalker. He gave me his number once and I never called, but every time we happen to be on the same train, he does this cute little thing where he shakes my seat until I pay attention to him, or will walk by multiple times, hoping I’ll look up and make eye contact. And he does this to an overweight girl with acne, glasses, and brunette roots who wears tshirts and jeans and sneakers. Golly gee, Cary, what can I do to be less sexy and attention-getting?
The thing is, though, that although it’s not class-”men” who commit rape, it’s not the case that men who commit rape are entirely dissimilar from the rest of us. It’s a reasonable argument to say that nothing can prevent jump-from-the-bushes rape, rape that arises out of sociopathy rather than entitlement, but jump-from-the-bushes rape is an epidemic only slightly worse than the epidemic of people being struck by lightning or attacked by killer bees. It’s the men that can be reached that commit the majority of rapes: the ones that have been taught that, once certain triggers are given — a certain dress, a certain blood alcohol content — they are allowed to claim that their behavior is beyond their control.
As a man, I know this is nonsense.
– ACS
Just saying that a lot of nice, but socially inept guys will try to chat you up in misguided ways if you dress sexy. That can be annoying, but it’s not dangerous. People looking to violate aren’t interested in what you have to say or are trying to convey with your dress, they’re just looking to violate. Dressing like a good girl won’t protect you from them. I DO NOT mean to imply that people who dress like good girls are asking to be violated!
I’m a little confused and a lot concerned by this pithy nugget-o-deepness of CT’s:
“We pick the ones who catch our eye, the ones whose bright colors enrage us, whose sexual attractiveness fills us with resentment and anger.”
Catching someone’s eye, I get. WTF is up with enraging bright colors? My red coat makes you angry? My yellow rain boots elicit fury? And that makes you wanna rape me?
And what of sexual attractiveness that fills [CT, some man, whoever] with resentment and anger? I thought [CT, some man, whoever] really want women to be sexually attractive. Isn’t that The Feminine Mandate? But attractiveness leads to anger? What sort of jacked-up, crossed-wires BS is that?
Oh JW I got that one from the messed-up first boyfriend. Here’s the deal, as I remember it being explained to me:
As a Good Girlfriend it was my job to Look Good for Him. This meant dressing in a way that he enjoyed looking at, not only for his aesthetic pleasure, but also to increase his social standing among his peers and in the eyes of other men—having an attractive, sexy girlfriend with him broadcast to other guys just how fortunate he was, and how enviable he was.
Dressed sexy on my own, though, I wasn’t bringing him any glory. People might notice me as a sexual creature independent of him. I shouldn’t be dressing for some other guy’s gaze, went the reasoning, only for him, to increase his primate whatsis.
Being a teenager kinda sucked. I was pretty dumb. I’m much better now.
Dear heavens, Jennie. I devoutly hope that your old high school boyfriend never has a daughter.
And it’s pretentious drivel. Are feminists not allowed to hold aesthetic opinions?
Good luck to you if you think that works.
Women wear flashy clothes so someone will harass them? Well, if that’s their motivation they’re going about it all wrong. As I noted at my place, if you want some guy to call you a cunt, do something that indicates to him that you think you’re more than a cunt. For instance, in the past couple of weeks, this has what has gotten me harassed: reading in public, trying to walk across the street in a hurry before the light turned red while wearing jeans and a T-shirt, and putting groceries in my truck. What these three activities have in common is the indicate to the misogynist that I am a woman who has things to do other than stand around hoping he wants to fuck me, and this enrages him. So he feels the need to remind me that I’m just a woman and he could hurt me if he wanted to.
This guy does know that burqa-clad women in Taliban-era Afghanistan were often kidnapped and raped? And that little kids and old people in nursing homes are, too?
Perhaps I should clarify:
If a woman is trained in self defense AND armed with a firearm, she doesn’t need to give a flying fuck who’s looking at her or what she’s wearing.
However, if you dress provocatively and attract attention but have no effective means of defending yourself from the negative aspects of that attention, then you are being foolish.
Time for women to take responsibility for their safety. The meek librarian and the club-hopping sexpot BOTH would have nothing to worry about if they have “the great equalizer” —- ie a gun —- in their posession.
The point isn’t that anyone actually thinks he’s sympathizing with rapists — the point is that it comes off that way and it’s REALLY CREEPY.
Covering oneself up and carrying a gun while traveling outside doesn’t really help the majority of rape victims who are raped in their homes and by men that they know.
Because a gun is going to help me so damn much when I’m at home with my boyfriend.
Jennie–
I get (as much as one can get your old bf’s asinine “logic”) the whole “Unga! Girlfriend mine! All pretty for me!” thing.
But in this case, in CT’s scenario, he’s speaking as Everyman on the subway, trolling for victims, not as a dude who’s policing his “property”. In that case, this Everyman picks (how nice! I was “picked”!) his mark because her attractiveness and bright colors (again, whaa?) fired his resentment and anger.
That’s what I’m confused by. “You’re pretty and desirable and oooh i hate you so much i’ma rape you” doesn’t make sense to me.
Not that any of the long list of rapist’s “justification” do.
Yeah, most women are raped by people they know.
And while I do understand Tennis’ devices (woo, that’s what an English degree is good for!) – the implications of said devices are rather multi-layered.
Because nothing says “safety” like a shootout on public transportation.
However, if you dress provocatively and attract attention but have no effective means of defending yourself from the negative aspects of that attention, then you are being foolish.
Yeah, it’s not like any women have reasons for not carrying a gun. It’s not like any women have moral problems with them, or don’t want their children to be anywhere near them, or believe that guns make crimes worse, or can’t afford a gun or lessons to learn how to use it properly, or just don’t want to carry something that dangerous with them wherever they go. These aren’t legitimate complaints, not at all; it’s just more foolishness.
Seriously, I fail to see how a gun will solve more problems than it’ll create — for many woman, anyhow.
Really? It came off more to me, not that he was sympathizing with rapists, but that he was saying he IS one. That’s how it read to me.
Eshie, I think I was perhaps unclear.
I reject your “if you dress provocatively and you cannot defend yourself then you are being foolish” line of reasoning for several reasons:
1) If I dress provocatively, I am not saying “attack me,” I am saying “look at me.” Anyone who can’t understand the difference is not fit to live in civilized society.
2) A society in which citizens must go armed in order to feel safe does not meet my criteria for a civilized society.
3) A civlized society recognizes and enforces the inviolability of my body and my person no matter what I am wearing.
4) Many people may be in some way unfit for civil society, but not to the extent that they would attack someone. They might harrass a woman or ogle her, and the effect of the harrassment and ogling might be to cause her to feel less safe, but they do not constitute attacks against the person. They are rude and stupid. Therefore, even in this vastly imperfect society I do not need a gun.
5) I refuse to allow rude and stupid people to dictate what I wear or how I comport myself. Carrying a gun would allowing them to dictate how I comport myself.
6) Most attacks against women do not happen in situations where one would likely have a gun to hand. What good is a gun when you’re already mostly naked and you’ve said “No, I don’t want to do that.”
Several people have already made that last point. I know that you think that we’re all too focussed on making a society in which rape is taken seriously enough that women needn’t feel unsafe. My view is that, for the most part, no woman needs to feel unsafe as it is right now, and that carrying guns, wearing bulky sweaters and baggy pants, or not going out at all are all ways of letting the fear-mongers control what we do and how we interact.
Out of curiosity, have you had to deploy your weapon or use your self-defense skills?
I can kind of see the connection. I figure, yes, rape is about power, but with some rapists it is probably about the power to consent or not consent. They’ve been turned down by women in the past and are angered that women have the right to turn them down. Therefore, an attractive woman is, for those guys, a particular target because to him she represents the girls that have turned him down, and women’s sexual power over men in general. They want to strike a blow against her power to refuse them.
That’s always been my theory as to why I get cold prickles when I see a man going off on a misogynist rant about all the ‘bitches’ that turn him down, at least.
Actually, I started to carry a gun after I was attacked in ***broad daylight*** in the city by a bunch of hispanic gang kids, and if a MAN (a police officer, with a gun) hadn’t come along and literally saved me then who knows what would have happened. I decided that I wasn’t going to depend on men for my physical safety anymore. I am a tiny, petite woman who couldn’t fend off 99% of men even with years of martial arts training. A gun is pretty much my only option, and I live in a dangerous city and have to be out and about at night for my job.
In terms of rape by men known to the woman, she has more control over that than stranger rape actually. She can not hang around creepazoids, not allow them to become her boyfriend, and not go to parties and get drunk and pass out. She can watch her drinks carefully and never accept them from a weird guy, and not take her eye off it. Most the things that lead to rape by an aquaintence are influenced by behavioral choices of the woman, but women do NOT control the random psycho on the street who wants to rape her! That’s where a gun comes in.
Forgive my writing please, English is not my first language and I’m still learning. I am very pro-feminist because I am Asian and men think they can harass me because I am very petite and they think I should be submissive to them. It sickens me. I think women should take control of their lives and not let men lull them into being victims.
JW, Cecily, I think Cecily’s got some notion. I also think that there’s a sort of “you poke it, you own it” thing going on there, and a weird sort of entitlement “Flash-woman is dressed up for something not me, and dammit I deserve some booty.”
I don’t think there’s any sort of sane logic happening there.
Raincitygirl, I sincerely hope that he has, in the decade-plus since I last saw him, learned how to be a human being. We were both very young and very wrongheaded about a lot of things. Failing learning how to be human, I do hope that other women have been sensible enough to avoid him, thereby seriously damaging his chances at spawning either a son or a daughter (his particular weird attitudes wouldn’t do anyone any good).
JUST TELL THE PEOPLE WHAT THEIR PROBLEMS ARE AND WHAT THEY SHOULD DO.
Darling, do YOU take the advice of persons who tell you what your problems are, and what you should do? How has this worked out for you, in the past? I am curious. For me, personally, this line of action has generally created a great many more problems than it has solved.
I am quite shocked at the virulent attitudes displayed toward my dear associate on this thread–I had not thought t’were possible! Such poetry, such meditation, such honest empathy has Cary, in my long-term personal experience! How very sad, to have my illusions that universal popularity is even possible, shattered.
I do concede that Cary was in error, when he noted that the flashy ladies are the ones most likely to be attacked; in my experience, psychotic creeps are drawn to the mousy, cringing, paranoid ones every time. I find that an aura of genial, confident friendliness, coupled with a set of brass knuckles and the willingness to kick an obsteperous fellow in the balls, has kept me safe in innumerable dicey situations.
Also, as I pointed out to Cary, associating with caring, concerned gentlemen who are willing to escort me into cabs has been a major source of Psychotic Creep repellent.
Eshie, I’m sorry you were attacked: that must have been really terrifying, and it sounds to me like the sort of thing my mom has nightmares about, with me living downtown alone. I’m glad that a police officer was around to help you out. And your writing is just fine.
Yes, women can control their circumstances, and we can take “sensible precautions” whether socially, with the people with whom we choose to keep company, or in the city, avoiding high-crime areas or deserted areas, paying attention to the tingly-uncomfortable feeling that tells us that “maybe this isn’t such a good short-cut.”
But we also need to create a society in which rape, whether by the random psycho or by the sozzled boyfriend, is viewed as a serious, unjustifiable crime, and one that is punished as such. In order to do that, we need to think very carefully about saying that women who dress a certain way or behave a certain way are more likely to be attacked or raped—just how far is that from blaming the victim?
My sweetie was mugged in full daylight in Montreal. He cried for help, and nobody paid the slightest bit of attention. Is it my sweetie’s fault that he was mugged? Did the mugger care what my sweetie was wearing? (Seems unlikely—R’s fashion sense is carefully nondescript and runs to inexpensive and baggy.) Was anyone going to say “Well he shouldn’t have been out, he was unwise to be there”? Of course not. He fit whatever the mugger’s profile for an easy mark was (turned out that he wasn’t such an easy mark: his girlfriend jumped on the mugger from behind and screamed her head off. Mugger refrained from hitting her when he noticed that she was a woman.)
Random sociopathic crazy people are a worry, yes, but they’re not really a worry that one can screen for much, which is what you’ve said: they’re random and crazy. However, statistically speaking, more violent crimes are committed against women than against men; however, women are more frequently the victims of sexual assault and rape (See the Bureau of Justice; note that these statistics don’t say anything about the nature of the reported sexual assaults—whether they were the stranger-danger variety or the date-rape variety.Lila Pinter-Reed’s analysis (which is, admittedly 10 years old) notes that women were most likely (40%) to experience violence at the hands of an acquaintance, and slightly less likely (29%) to experience it as domestic violence. 23% experienced violence at the hands of a stranger, and yes, this is a significant number, but significantly lower than 40%) .
Yet articles like Cary Tennis’s make it sound like women are just sitting ducks for violent attacks and rape if they dare to go out in public.
You’ve found a sense of security and freedom in your belief that you can stop a random attacker with a gun, and if that works for you, okay. I don’t believe that I should feel compelled by virtue of my gender to carry one, nor do I accept that my sole options are to go armed and prepared to attack a random assailant or to pretend that dressing a particular way will make me safer.
Eshie – if acquaintance rape happens, it’s not a woman’s fault for making poor decisions. A lot of rapists (especially date rapists) seem like nice, normal guys. You can’t just look at a guy and tell if he’s a rapist or not a rapist. Child molestation victims are often abused by clergy, teachers, babysitters, etc. Do you think that if parents could *tell* on first sight if the clergyman/teacher/babysitter was a “creepazoid”, that they would even dream of leaving their kids with that person? Besides poor decision-making – which is often not the person’s fault for being stupid, it could be a result of naivete in a strange situation or just plain old inexperience – people make mistakes. A normally careful woman might take her eyes off her drink for a second – does that mean that she was an idiot and “earned” date rape for her stupidity?
I do agree that women should be informed and educated about things like watching their drinks, staying in well-lit public places, etc. But I don’t think that if a woman doesn’t adhere to those rules, that a rape is her fault. And unfortunately, rape can happen even to the most careful woman.
That being said, *I* am Asian, too, and very pro-gun rights.
Pretty Lady – why in this day and age, should a woman have to be escorted to travel unmolested? Are we back to the pre-modern days when young women had to always be accompanied by a chaperone? I have walked through a certain neighborhood alone and been harrassed, and I have walked through the same neighborhood with male friends and been treated like a princess. I don’t think that’s right. I hate the misogynistic attitude that I don’t deserve respect for being a human being, but only get if I’m with a guy.
This thread is great. It looks like the cats are still after the meat, so to speak. Where do these guys crawl out from? They seem to be an entirely different species than normal people. I wonder what Cary Tennis would say to Shaikh Al Hilali (or the gang-rapists that got SUCH harsh sentences, poor dears, that Al Hilali sympathizes with).
Ick. And Eww. And Gross. Calling all decent men, can you educate these neanderthals? And calling medical research teams, can we get a pill we could make them take that would cure their narcissistic misogyny?
I find that an aura of genial, confident friendliness, coupled with a set of brass knuckles and the willingness to kick an obsteperous fellow in the balls, has kept me safe in innumerable dicey situations.
Pretty Lady, I understand you feel safer believing you have the magic bullet to protect yourself, but it’s an illusion. You’ve been lucky, not cleverer or tougher than those of us who have experienced sexual assault.
Pretty Lady has to be understood in context.
The character is a pastiche of Myra Breckenridge.
eshie.
if find your second post to be the most offensive and incorrect of the two.
time and time again, when incarcerated people (mostly men), are asked what they remember about the survivors that they have raped they respond with either the survivors shoes or hair style.
SHOES and HAIR.
not skirt length. not cleavage. no flashiness of outfit. not looks. but their shoes and hair.
this is because when selecting someone to victimize, attackers scan and choose the victim most easily vicimized. if someone has high heels on, then they are less likely to be able to run away as fast. if someone has long hair or a long pony tail, the attacker is able to then pull them down by their hair.
once again, it has NOTHING to do with their looks or dress style.
in reference to saying that women have “more control over aquaintence rape”: that is complete bull shit.
we live in a world that tells women that there are two types of guys–good guys and bad guys. Also, this same discourse tells us that women are able to deciipher between the two. This discourse fails at aiding women in anyways, and actually perpetuates aquaintance rape. women let their guard down often times when they are with someone society has taught them is “good.” In the case of a woman in the book by lynn phillips titled FLIRTING WITH DANGER, she ended up being raped because she tooks her parents advice of “finding a nice boy from church to walk you home.” On her walk home with him, he ended up raping her.
point of this, you can never have control over rape.
what we need instead, thich has been voiced by many posters, is a society that has a male accountability discourse. Until men are held accountable for their actions, then progressive social chcange can never occur.
loose the gun, and read FLIRTING WITH DANGER. Education, in my opinion, is more powerful than any bullet.
peace and love,
jen
I think you smart feminists find so much fault with Cary’s chunk of substandard prose not only because of its creepiness factor, which is definitely off the charts, but also because it is full of clichés, generalizations and shoddy logic. When Cary makes claims, not only does he support them with fallacies and generalizations, but he does not address warrants or counterarguments.
(Incase you were wondering: I AM a feminist, I DO have a vagina and it IS full of cobwebs—Jane Awake—new to the neighborhood.)
Warrants are an important part of any argument. They are the underlying assumptions that connect claims to reasons. For example, if I say that political prisoners should not be tortured because it is cruel and unusual, the warrant that connects my claim (political prisoners should not be tortured) to my reason (because it is cruel and unusual) is: cruel and unusual punishment is ethically wrong no matter the situation. If a reader does not agree with my underlying assumption, then my logic does not work for them. For this reason, I must address my warrants as part my argument.
Taking that necessity as a given, on to Cary’s argument:
(Bad writing note: cliché: “For the city is also a stage, occupied by actors”)
(Bad writing note: use of the pronoun “we” in an immature and assumptive fashion: his logic is “If I say ‘we’ the reader will be forced to empathize with attackers; he or she will consider rapists’ humanity.” Barf.)
Here is a chain of “reasoning” in Cary’s piece:
“Suffocated by the sheer numbers around us as we sit on the buses and subways day after day, we sometimes feel that we are less real than others, less powerful, less important and respected; we dream of doing something to take some of that power and visibility away from them. So we attack them, take their money and spend it, take their credit cards, take their lives.”
So Cary’s argument is:
“We” live in a city with a large population.
THUS
“We” feel unreal, powerless, disrespected.
THUS
“We” seek vengeance against those we deem visible, powerful, respected.
THUS
“We” attack those people, rob them, and kill them.
So, the insane warrants he left out, in order, are:
1. Living in close proximity to lots of other people is dehumanizing; the metropolis itself strips people of their power and selfhood.
(Any city gals disagree with that one? I do, and his warrant is not addressed.)
2. People who feel unimportant plot against people they deem more visible and powerful than themselves.
(Anyone ever suffered disrespect (or, in Cary’s piece, imagined disrespect) in silence and then gotten over it? Or any pacifists in the audience? Any non-vengeful ladies? Readers who just aren’t jealous? Any Ugly Betties who were friends with the hyper-attractive gal? I have been, and his warrant is, again, not addressed.)
3. When “we” are jealous of people “we” imagine to be more powerful than “us”, “we” rape, rob or murder them.
(I mean, seriously that’s not even motive enough for a Law and Order episode.)
And then of course, the kicker:
“How do we pick our victims? We pick the ones who catch our eye, the ones whose bright colors enrage us, whose sexual attractiveness fills us with resentment and anger.
Who will be the victim? That pretty one there.”
Which you have all exposed as a fallacy in excellent detail.
Kudos, feminist rhetoricians.
– ————————————————————
On a personal note: I like to call attention to myself on the subway AND feel safe at the same time, which is why I wear a medieval suit of armor, which, as you can see, includes a cute mini skirt.
oh is that what it is? i just held back because i noted she has a link to jackadandy, whom i adore, and therefore figured it had to be -some- sort of performance art…
http://jackadandy.net/blog/blog.html
At 50, I read this and find the arguments confusing, As both a male and a human, I know that some think themselves to be at the center of the universe and all of that is as wrong as something is as capable of being wrong. For starters, having read the requisite column, I have no idea of the degree of dress that has caused this discussion. Let me say up front that for myself, in the compay of a woman wearing anything from baggy sweats to nothing at all, you are 100% safe from me as far as uwanted sexual activity, “No Means No”, DAMNIT. But I also know my sex, If you’re a cute women dressed as a playboy bunny travelling on public transportation some of my less ethical brothers are going to think they are at the playboy mansion and act accordingly. I do not have any good answers, just 1) try to dress appropriately for the situation keeping in mind one can always take off layers and 2) sympathetic males like myself are almost always available and will be be happy to show our less enlightened bethren what absolute fools they are by messing with you guys.
darms,
The points that many of us are trying to make are
1) Most women who are attacked or harrassed by strangers in public places are not dressed “inappropriately,” by most people’s standards, so the advice to covering up to avoid male attention is kinda useless.
1a) Most rape, which is the threat women are trained to view as most scary, takes place at the hands of acquaintances in places that aren’t public, so again, covering up on public transit isn’t going to help one avoid that.
2) In a society that views women’s bodies as sex objects, men feel more entitled to harrass women, so the problem isn’t the women (however they may dress), but the men and the social mores that allow them to think that it’s okay to harrass a woman.
3) Harrassment and the threat of rape are both ways of using fear to restrict women’s mobility and autonomy—what I call “making the world smaller” for women. If women have to take more precautions (covering up, carrying pepper spray or guns, always going out in groups, whatever) than men, and if we accept this as “normal,” and part of being a woman in this society, we’re accepting limitations on our behaviour from the fear that in a nominally egalitarian, civilized society, male-nature means that men will hurt women.
3a) Notwithstanding that both harrassment and the threat of rape accomplish the same thing, in terms of creating a climate of fear for women, verbal harrassment is NOT the same as rape.
3b) It’s not wrong to look at a woman who is dressed up for display. Looking is not the same as harrassment or rape.
While it’s noble and all to help a woman who is being harrassed, and I’m glad there are decent guys like you who will do that, ultimately wel all need to stop tacitly condoning boorish behaviour with any sort of “guys will be guys” rhetoric and make “women are not sex objects” a basic tenet for all guys.
Yeah, arm all the women! No rapist will ever be convicted again!