Helo: Traitor?
Or simply the only good person left in the universe?
Discuss.
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i think it comes down to how one defines life. if my computer started killing people, i wouldn’t have a problem unplugging it. my computer clearly is not “alive” however. the cylons may exist in a gray area.
personally, i would have made the same decision as laura, and i think helo is a traitor.
I dunno. I’m a latecomer to BSG, mostly only watching this season (and some back episodes that I’ve come across) but it seems to me that Cylons pass the sentience test (that I just made up.) I think Helo was right.
Plus, having only watched this season, I’d gotten used to thinking of the Cylons as the equivalent of Americans – imperialist occupiers that nonetheless aren’t deserving of genocide.
One of the points of the show, I think, is this:
It takes characters, and makes you love them, and then puts them in situations in which they commit horrible acts that you, the viewer, will agree with and find justifiable because of the situation.
It also takes characters, and makes you hate them, and then puts them in situations in which they commit wonderful acts that you, the viewer, will agree with and learn to forgive the character because of the acts.
So the point of the show is something like that: hell is the distance between us. So people who think that, for example, Iraqi suicide bombers are evil and subhuman are forced to watch a character they love commit totally justifiable suicide bombings and, as a result, begin to understand that what was once viewed as unforgiveable and inhuman is more complex than that, and the people viewed before as monsters as human beings not unlike us. By demonstrating the full range of human behavior in a range of incredibly complex, trying situations, the show is trying to say: this is what humans are capable of, we can be demons and we can be angels, any one of us, and everyone you judge as good or evil has the capacity for both, and give the same circumstances, you might do the same.
Again: the span of hell is the space in between you and I. Divinity is crossing that space, it’s understanding that the space in between you and I is vast only so long as we decide it is vast. That is why this show is, fundamentally in a way that most other shows (and fiction in any medium) are not, is literature: it’s about what it means to be human, a being that thinks and feels and eventually dies and has to live in a world beyond its control.
In other words, how the hell did this show ever get made?
I lean towards Roslin’s POV, somewhat reluctantly. The (paraphrased) line that struck me most was – “And if they do hate us for doing it, at least there will be someone left to hate us.” For me, the issue wasn’t so much whether or not the Cylons count as humans as whether or not this counts as self-defense. The Cylons wiped out 99% of the known human population and pursued the survivors relentlessly. They’ve given no sign at all that they intend to stop. They’re vastly more powerful than the humans. This is, as far as the fleet knows, their only chance to even harm them – they typically are reincarnated every time they die, after all, and are therefore invulnerable to the fleet’s strongest firepower. Genocide typically isn’t committed by a weaker force desperately trying to survive against a vastly stronger force who has been repeatedly trying to, you know, commit genocide against that weaker force and has almost entirely succeeded. (Unless it has been, in which case I will surely be corrected!)
Helo’s arguments seemed pretty clunkily-written and cliched, but Helo has never been the brightest. His most convincing argument, I thought, was that, yes, the Cylons can change, yes, some of them can get better. I remain disgusted by his “If I was wrong, I can live with that” line – because every person who dies from now on sure as hell won’t be living with it as easily as you, boy. Did anyone else think Athena was going to come up and strangle him during that monologue scene? It was very weirdly shot, and particularly when she said “I’ll always love you,” I thought, oh god, she’s going to break his neck.
Other thoughts: Lee and Athena both looked *tiny* next to Helo. He is a large, large man.
This episode also reminded me of how much I love how Roslin’s gentle schoolteachery/mothery exterior is contrasted with her willingness to do anything to protect humanity – well, mainly toss lots of Cylons out of airlocks, both literal and figurative. “Strong yet feminine?” Gag. Try “brutal and cold yet feminine.”
Will they just let Gaius wake up with his clothes on, for once? I mean, I get it, he’s vulnerable and flesh-and-blood trapped in a cold cold metal place by cold cold metal robots, but I got that the first time he woke up naked.
Torturegasm. Ewwwwwwwwwwwwww. And HeadSix has the weirdest dirty talk ever. Is “believe in me! believe in me!” the Cylon equivalent of “say my name?”
Still: impressed that Gaius got a chance to use his OTHER massive, throbbing organ for once, given that he’s supposed to be the most brilliant human alive.
Given that Galactica had both the cure *and* the disease, couldn’t they have just used the disease to commit blackmail on a grand scale?
– ACS
Did Athena set the self-destruct?
Mandos reminds me: thank God for Athena’s new callsign. I was getting tired of this Galactica-Sharon v. Caprica-Sharon–but wait–Galactica-Sharon’s on Caprica and Caprica-Sharon’s on Galactica–well, only one of them was Boomer–but they’ve switched places–well, there’s the one we like–well, there’s the one who’s with the Cylons–oh, crap.
Boomer.
Athena.
So much easier to make nerdy fannish discussion now.
I will go ahead and admit that I am totally biased against Helo and I’ve hated him ever since he fell in “love” with Athena. Gawd he is a tool. A gullible tool at that. Yes, we can debate his whole situation on Old Caprica ad nausam but to me I just can’t bring myself to see his side and I find him weak and annoying. So feel free to totally dismiss me on this.
Helo is a traitor. Now, whether he did the right thing is the real question that will also cause endless debate. While I believe the Cylons are a race unto themselves, for reasons that have yet to be explained to us they attacked the 12 colonies unprovoked after years of peace between the two races. UNPROVOKED. And they continue to hunt down the humans relentlessly in order to either kill them or to force the humans to submit to their will. If this had been a mutual war then perhaps I could see the whole, “no genocide” point of view, however this is the enemy that killed billions of your people and are STILL trying to kill you.
Every single time the human fleet comes into contact with the Cylon fleet the Cylons are prepared to kill the humans, i.e. when the humans jumped into their orbit and the Cylon fleet came with guns blazing. Yes, we know what the humans were going to do but it doesn’t help that the Cylons are always ready to kill humans at any given chance and it’s the humans who are trying to protect their survival. Now, we have the survivors of the 12 colonies trying to find a new home that the Cylons are also trying to find and what would you bet that the Cylons aren’t going to be so nice to the people of Earth either? Especially with the other colonies there to explain the whole situation.
Helo disobeyed an order and if I were Adama or Roslyn I would serisouly have to rethink letting him in on any kind of future plans involving attacks, etc. He should be damn happy Admarial Cane isn’t there. His ass would have had a bullet in his brain or been shot out of an airlock in a split second. If anything I’d like to see him get his ass kicked, ESPECIALLY after he had the nerve to tell Roslyn about what the Cylons tried to do on New Caprica. I was half expecting her to walk over and deck him but she held her cool cause she’s a badass like that:)
Guessing that this back and forth between the two fleets continues, what’s the difference between killing Cylons a few at a time and perhahps over time wiping them out OR killing them all at once and knowing you are free? In war is it only okay to kill in self defense or using an upper hand when you have it?
oh yeah, welcome back zuzu!!!!
So is that it? After Three puts down the misapplied dental equipment, she’s now all in love with him or what?
That is how love works on this show, Mandos: you always hurt the ones you love. Really. With pain. And death.
Head!Six and Gaius? She loves him so much she had to slam his face into bulkheads and kick him around every other episode. Sadly, her love seems to have diminished lately.
Ellen and Saul Tigh? He didn’t say “I love you” until after he killed her.
Helo and Athena? Wasn’t true love until he shot her while she was pregnant. (Repeatedly, if my memory serves me right.) Still, every single main character (and many secondary characters) excepting Roslin has assaulted a Sharon, so I’m not entirely sure that counts.
Cally and Chief? He beats her bloody and she forgives him less than a day later and tells him she loves him, and he impregnates her half an hour of screentime after that. Hot.
Kara and Lee? She punched him, he punched her back; she shot him – by accident, sure, but what a *romantic* accident. And the upcoming “Fight Club” episode should prove beyond a doubt that they really have tru-luv-4-eva.
Leoben and Kara are not a couple because that’s gross, but he really didn’t seem to care that she tortured him or killed him repeatedly. In fact, he was pretty happy the last time – she said she loved him! And proved it by killing him!
Now, the couples who aren’t going to last, or didn’t?”
Lee and Dee had a dumb “training” match where apparently they were all turned on by wrestling with each other, which I guess would be more believable if the actors had any chemistry with each other. But did they really hurt each other? Nope.
Kara and Anders? Sorry – saying you’d like to hurt him just isn’t the same as actually hurting him.
Gaius and Caprica Six? You know, he would believe that she cared if she would just once – just ONCE – slam his head into a bulkhead. But she can’t even take the time to do that. They’re doomed.
Billy and Dee? Yup.
Did I miss anyone? I just can’t believe I found a show that made the relationships on Buffy look healthy and sane.
Way WAY better than last weeks mediocre outting.
Yeah, he is really about the least interesting of the regular cast going. Having him replace Tigh has just been a nightmare.
I have to agree that the use of biological weapons was definitely warranted. I don’t think the arguments about how the war started are nearly as important as the ongoing jeopardy to the survival of humans. Helo would have been a much more sympathetic character, however, if he hadn’t busted out with that “Cylons tried to live with humans on New Caprica” crap, though. I am just shocked nobody in the room knocked him on his ass for it.
ROFL!
I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t have a few infected blood samples in Doc Cottle’s lab to use in the future.
Sorry, guys, but I disagree. Helo may be simple, he may be the big, dumb, decent, loyal one–that doesn’t make him uninteresting. It might make him uninteresting to his crewmates; it makes him, as far as I’m concerned, very interesting for plot.
He’s loyal to a fault, and now his loyalties are in conflict. He seems like he has a pretty simple code of moral decency; now it’s a mess. Helo is a good soldier and a good husband in a really, really shitty conflict of interest, and he doesn’t seem equipped to process it, and is probably making terrible decisions because of it. He’s not cut out to be XO, and he’s trying his damnedest anyway. That’s interesting to me. Just ’cause he’s a golden retriever in human form doesn’t mean he’s not very useful for plot purposes.
As to the big question: I think he may be both a traitor and the last good guy there is, for certain values of “good.” Other people are different kinds of good; Roslin’s willing to be a monster in order to ensure human survival, for instance, and sacrifice her own morality and decency for the greater goal of posterity. That’s a kind of good I don’t think Helo could ever be. It’s a kind of good most human beings could never have the strength or the perversity to ever be, and thank God, though we need it.
At the same time, for all that he was an idiot with his comment about New Caprica, Helo’s another kind of good–the stubborn, basic kind that says if we have to do inhuman things to save humanity, it’s not worth saving. And while I think, on a macro level, maybe Roslin’s right, Helo’s is the kind of morality I can get my teeth in: the kind that interlocks with Sharon’s question as to whether or not humanity deserves to survive. Helo, dumb as he is, infuriating as he is, is the answer: yes. Because we’ll even make stupid, self-sacrificing, self-destroying decisions in order to guard the things that make us human in the first place. Because we’ll see real people in our worst enemies, and give to those who’d just as soon see us dead. Because we won’t give up on love even when we don’t want it, it doesn’t make sense, and it could absolutely destroy us.
Roslin’s the kind of good that makes humanity possible. Helo’s the kind of good that makes it worth it. He did the right thing, and he’s a traitor.
I thought Sharon was gonna snap his neck, too.
One thing I find interesting, as an aside, is that no matter which side of the argument people come down on, nobody seems to bite down on the “they are just machines” argument that always comes up in the show. It is well established that this is Roslin’s view of the Cylon in the show. I don’t think she is even seeing it as a “real” question of doing something monstrous. Indeed, Adama had this view early, and I think his relationship with Athena changed that. It is a recurring theme that it is only the people who get close to the Cylons see them as something other than “toasters”, and absent that, I don’t think Roslin is even in the space to raise the moral question.
That may be so, cooper. I think Roslin considers Adama sort of dim for being taken in by Athena. At the same time, we’ve seen the pattern from her before–like during the abortion debate, when she made it clear that she thought outlawing abortion was a vile and unjust thing to do, but was willing to take the sin of doing it on herself in order to ensure human survival as a species. She’s made that call for rigging the election, for blowing up the bugged passenger liner in “33″ and even before that in the decision to cut and run instead of fighting, in the pilot. It seems like part of her character to consider these decisions, and then do the personally awful or ruthless thing for the greater good.
I don’t think ends justify means, myself, but I can’t say I wouldn’t do the same, with the stakes so high.
I imagine the folks who were on New Caprica would be even more likely to see the “only machines” view, anyway, having been around a bunch of the same model at the same time, alongside the bullethead Centurions. Good point.
I’m still intrigued by the previous ep. When Three says, “She doesn’t GET a vote,” I was thinking, “Oh. Yes. She. Does.” I think that was foreshadowing: we’ll find that the hybrids do, in fact, get a vote.
Also, I am generally thinking about an Abel and Cain story for the Missing Five.
Since there was a pledge to keep the tecno-babble in check, I wonder why no one has questioned how the virus could download (a la Snowcrash). One might think that it would not work, and if we are going to go that route, what’s to stop the Cylons from inventing “bio-filters”, as seen in Star Trek?
I hope they remember why this is the best spec-fic evr on teh idiot box.
Transcript, captured Simon:
Naw, no techno-babble here!
Still, if they do go and ahead weaponize the virus, and make a make an effective (local) bio-weapon, instead of Cottle’s temporary cure, humans have the permanent cure for the Cylon plague in Athena. So should the Cylons, in Hera.
Roslin’s insta-cure last season was bad enough, if we keep on this route, we will soon arrive to the point where Galactica will adjust their forward shields to emit tachyon particles, such that Starbuck can travel back in time and try to kill all the Cylon agents and attempt to fix the backdoor exploit in the defense software. Of course, [plot thickens] the Cylons have also been fooling with tachyon particles…
And with the surplus of pilots/not enough ships, what’s the logic again on putting Athena in a firefight where she could get killed, captured and boxed by the other side? And why the heck would a unarmed resurrection ship jump to a location where there was a battlestar and a likely firefight again? Isn’t the standard tactic to keep it out of the firefight, in range, and one jump away?
In regards to the genocide question, the best reason to use the opportunity is that the Cylons have shown a clear and past intent to commit genocide against the humans. However the best reason why it should not be attempted is because it would not work. As soon as the Cylons detected the sickness in their own resurrection ship, one would think that they could destroy it, stopping the infection, and making them mortal for a while until they could build a new one. Of course, now you’ve just escalated the conflict that has shown signs of cooling. Clearly the Cylons have demonstrated self-awareness, and therefore inalienable rights.
I was mostly impressed that they found something for Gaius to do that was actually *creepier* than genocide or torture. He’s not about to let those amateurs out-”ick!” him.
Roslin’s willingness to do monstrous things to save humanity is exactly what Tigh was willing to do with the suicide bombers and his wife, and exactly what Adama Sr. WASN’T willing to do with Admiral Cain.
nerdlet Says:
Heh.
Tourette-Torturegasm. Heh.
Heh.
The mere fact that we’re having this discussion, and that there are so many different points of view being expressed says more than anything else could for the quality of the show. Good TV entertains. Great TV makes you think while it entertains.
Honestly, I don’t know if I think Helo is a traitor or the last good guy, but that’s part of what I like about the show . . . the ambiguity.
All is not necessarily well in BSG land, however. According to some of the reports my husband has been looking at, the ratings have been going down some (to the point where they’re equal of SG-1 when it got cancelled). Now, the ratings are fabulous, when TiVo and other delayed viewing systems are figured in, but those aren’t the figures that advertisers look at.
Hopefully, since Sci-Fi owns the product, they’ll actually keep hold of it. But I have to admit I’m getting a bit worried.
Wow, I’m surprised by how many people think Helo’s a traitor. I’m convinced that the Cylons, the “skinjobs” at least, are persons — albeit a lot more homogeneous than the humans — and genocide would not be a permissible act, although it might save human lives.
(Incidentally, my then-boyfriend and I had our first fight over Roslin’s abortion policy [yeah, we're geeks], about the same issue — is there a course so morally questionable that it shouldn’t even be adopted for self-preservation?)
P. S. Yeah, creepiest sex/torture scene ever. Though there probably aren’t many of those anyway.
P. P. S. Oh, please don’t let them cancel it. How could they possibly cancel it?
A big part of the moral calculus for me is figuring out whether there are parts of Cylon society that are ‘civilian’ and not involved withthe war effort.
I mean, there’s a big difference between pushing a button and destroying ‘every last Cylon’ and pushing a button and destroying ‘every last Cylon, every one of which is actively attempting to commit genocide on us.’
Well, it’s obvious both that Helo is a traitor and that he did the right thing. Though I was hoping the Cylons would be infected with the plague, and Baltar would find a permanent cure.
Welcome back zuzu!
Second to 22/Armagh444. One of the great strengths of BSG is the role of internal conflict among the protagonists.
Another outstanding feature of the show: Characters are constantly being put into situations where they must make heart-wrenching decisions; situations where there are *no good choices*; situations where, no matter what course of action they choose, somebody is going to get hurt or die. This happens, I think, in every single episode, starting with the pilot (where they had to decide whether to seal the bulkheads to prevent explosive decompressions from spreading throughout the ship). This makes BSG absolutely excruciating to watch, but it gives it a lot of its dramatic power.
We’re getting closer to the question the series has been dancing around: How do you decide when a Cylon is human? I think the script has deliberately avoided (or evaded) having the characters engage in any real dialogue on that; presumably they’re saving that for the right moment.
Well, Baltar was a physicist and cyberneticist before. I don’t seem him doing biological research.
The TV role of “Scientist” who knows everything about everything always pisses me off. The Stargate shows are worse than Gillighans Island on that point.
Does anyone else still see the Cylons as children of humanity? For me, no matter how powerful they are, or how desperate the humans are, I always see the Cylons as rebellious kids. Okay, I’ll stop.
Will they just let Gaius wake up with his clothes on, for once? I mean, I get it, he’s vulnerable and flesh-and-blood trapped in a cold cold metal place by cold cold metal robots, but I got that the first time he woke up naked.
James Callis has been one of my emergency fantasy back-up husbands for several years now, so I don’t mind the nudity a bit. What followed, mind you, was very hard to watch. It’s an interesting take on torture. If anyone “deserves” it, it’s Baltar, but the actual execution – Jesus, who can bring themselves to do that shit in real life? I know people do, I just don’t see how.
He’s a traitor.
If morality will lead to extinction of the human race, morality must be shelved (for the time being).
As has already been stated, it would be different if the humans had started the war, or if they refused a truce.
If your enemy is bent on genocide, you musy reply with genocide. Ask some old jews if they would have advocated the genocide of Germans in 1940.
That’s a pretty horrifying viewpoint, RM. If you have to become as bad as the “bad guys,” as your enemies, or worse, in order to beat them–what’s the point of beating them? Who wins?
It’s not much different than the justifications for torturing would-be terrorists or the justifications of the terrorists themselves–they’re under the impression that they and their way of life will be wiped out, so that makes it okay to do horrible things–including acts of violence normally forbidden by their religion–to their enemies.
I don’t think everyone met by oppression or violence feels that responding in kind is going to solve everything, even if they must do terrible things in the moment to survive. Why the overkill? I don’t, after all, hunt down and kill transphobes and racists as a masked vigilante. And as a volunteer medic, I don’t refuse to treat skinhead demonstrators who’d be inclined to hurt me if they could. I’d rather be better than them, thank you.
Fighting back is one thing. Becoming your worst enemy is another. I don’t think morality ever “must be shelved.” The ends don’t justify the means.
i don’t see this situation as becoming “as bad as the ‘bad guys’” there’s a difference between *responding* to attempts at genocide with genocide, compared with unprovoked attempts at genocide. killing in self defense is different than killing for its own sake, or what excuse the cylons use in killing humans at every opportunity.
I think that the Cylons are a legitimate military target. I agree with Myca – a lot of my thinking hinges on the fact that all the Cylons who would be destroyed are actively trying to finish off the last few humans.
After all, the plan hinged on getting the Cylons to jump in close when they spotted Galactica – I don’t think they were there to negotiate.
Also, I was under the impression that some Cylons had stayed behind on Caprica, and that those who were chasing the humans were some sort of military expeditionary force. Maybe I just made that up, but it seemed to me that there were a LOT of Cylons back on the original colonies, and that not very many were still involved with the ongoing military operation. If that is the case, I am even more strongly in favor of sending the disease to the nearest resurrection ship.
As far as deserving it goes – though I think Baltar technically does, as far as I’ve seen he’s never actually been punished/hated for the things he did. He was hated and blamed for letting the Cylons take over New Caprica, signing the execution orders – but surely nobody on the planet believes the Cylons would have just killed him and then decided they weren’t going to kill anyone else. Meanwhile, nobody knows about him giving Gina the warhead, lying about Boomer’s status as a Cylon, living with a virtual Cylon in his head, and, oh yeah, giving the New Caprican defense codes to a Cylon in the first place. When he does get punished, it’s never for things he’s done – a Six comes aboard and shares fake images of Gaius betraying humanity in a *different* way and he’s due to be executed, Gaeta is willing to shoot him for letting the Cylons take over the planet, and now a Three tortures him to get knowledge he doesn’t have.
I don’t know if that actually means anything, it’s just odd.
Which is why, when watching the DVDs of the first season, I started VO’ing every such instance with “STRONG PEOPLE MAKING DIFFICULT DECISIONS.” There were an absurd amount of those situations early on. Try it, it’s fun!
If you have to become as bad as the “bad guys,” as your enemies, or worse, in order to beat them–what’s the point of beating them?
But Xenabot said that as long as there are any humans left to pass on hatred, the humans will be a threat and need to be exterminated. I’m not saying that Roslin and the others are justified in going ahead with the genocide, but they have yet to believe that anyone besides Athena can be trusted. We all know what happened the last time–last two times–peace was declared.
I would say that the Cylons have made it clear that it’s us or them, but recently they seem to be putting more energy into finding Earth than exterminating the refugees. Maybe this is a sign that their intents really have changed as a result of Caprica Six and Boomer.
(Has Gaius ever called Six anything other than Six? Even in the miniseries?)
Nerdlet
When he does get punished, it’s never for things he’s done
I think that can be filed under “Karma is a bitch.”
I found it interesting that the suggestion of using the virus (and it’s a real one, not a writer’s deus ex machina invention) as a bioweapon came from Lee; who, until his near-death experience, had always been the character to voice the moral conundrums (he even chose Roslin over his father). That role has shifted to Helo.
We still know nothing of the Cylon homeworlds…and how out-of-touch the pursuing Cylons are with them. Indeed, their idea of looking for a “new start” shows that maybe some have “gone native” in their contact with humans. Behaviors are overlapping.
I’m still intrigued with Six’s fearful comment to Baltar last episode when he asked about the other five Cylon skinjob models
“We do not speak of them.”
oh?
Something has been burbling around in the back of my mind since this week’s episode aired. Athena’s moment of decision, where she decides to keep her promise no matter what, what impact is that going to have, character-wise when she – inevitably – finds out that Hera is still alive. It seems to me that it will just make that betrayal all the more wrenching for her to cope with.
A comment on the abortion episode, which has been mentioned a few times:
didn’t anyone else find it a bit forced? one of those moments where the hands of the writers intrude into the action in an un-natural way? I was aghst that Roslin would go against everything she believes in for the “greater good”. It wasn’t necessary for her to make abortion criminal. She could have just explained to the fleet that unless they started making babies, the human race would be extinct in 18 years. at this time aobrtion will remain legal, with the strong encouragement to think of the greater good.
why legislate?
The part that got me about the abortion debate was that it ignored that, like all anti-abortion legislation, it’s not going to work. Women of the fleet will get abortions, or give themselves abortions, in the time-honoured way of risking their lives and health and fertility because their other options are untenable and the safe solution has been taken away. And they just completely ignored that.
To me, the solution would have been tax breaks, extra food, plenty of perks for pregnant women who carry children to term. Emphasise “having babies for the sake of humanity is good” rather than “choosing not to have babies is not an option”.
I think you have to draw a finer line than that. Responding to attempts at genocide doesn’t necessarily warrant it. What warrants it, IMHO, is the continuing existential thread from a vastly superior force and no other options. Maybe it is a fine distinction, but it matters.
Wasn’t the decision to make abortion illegal so she could get the Gemenon voters on her side and not really/entirely because of the practical issues?
They did deal with the issue of the futility of anti-abortion law: Cottle was doing one at the same time as the bill was being signed.
Wasn’t the decision to make abortion illegal so she could get the Gemenon voters on her side and not really/entirely because of the practical issues?
No. Infact she had a very testy exchange with the Gemenon representative over it.
Mandos
I believe that Roslin made it clear to Cottle that that was to be his last elective one.
That abortion was before the law change was announced, and grandfathered in as legal. Roslin banned abortion not for political support (though that was what brought the issue to her attention) but because Baltar gave her the numbers and said “we need to have babies”.
As far as “they” not mentioning the legislation wouldn’t work, I meant both the they of the characters and the they of the writers/producers. Roslin, who had fought her adult life for a woman’s right to choose, suddenly forgot one of the most basic arguments of the abortion rights debate is that anti-abortion legislation doesn’t stop abortion? I didn’t buy it.
Wow, I totally misremembered that, then. That wasn’t logical of Roslin at all.
Roslin’s argument with the Gemenon representative wasn’t about the abortion law, though, it was abuot returning Maya to her parents, because under Gemenese law she was their property. Roslin specifically said to Sarah Porter (the rep) “you got your pound of flesh (ie the abortion ban)”, and I suggest you take your victory and move on”. So I think it’s at least plausible that she was also looking for political support.
Yeah, the why not try the carrot before the stick thing wrt Roslin and the abortion episode thing has always bothered me too. So, people need to have babies, tell them that and make it really easy to do so. That and the various incarnations of baby magic (Sharon, Cara, Gaius/Six).