I’m not racist, I just don’t get what the Chinamen are so upset about.
NYU hosted a concert last night by the band Ching Chong Song — and was met with protest from several students, who argued that the band’s name was (duh) racist. The protest was successful, and the band agreed to change its name to Church of Lurch.
But as usual, the defense against racism was “I didn’t know that was racist!”
The members of the band, which will now be called Church of Lurch, said they never intended to offend anyone. LaMendola said she had no idea the name was offensive when the band came up with it.
Jeff Lewis, who is a friend of the band members, said the phonetics of the name matched the style of music they play.
“The sound ‘Ching Chong Song’ sounds like a zany collaboration of sounds,” Lewis said.
Yes, just zany sounds.
But the best quote about this totally-not-bigoted-at-all band comes from a press release by Fredrick Loo Wong:
The band formerly known as “Ching Chong Song” experienced similar protests in December at Bryn Mawr College. The protests there successfully got the band’s scheduled performance to be canceled. Julia LaMendola, the other band member, wrote an open letter in the Bryn Mawr’s student newspaper in response: “Growing up a child of a gay parent in a tiny town, a poor second-generation Italian girl, I also have experience with the nuances of language. And give me a break you stupid twats…By the way, ‘ching chang chong’ is what people in Germany call the game rock paper scissors, and stupid petty retards is what I’m calling you.”
Thanks to Fredrick for sending this on.
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Oh, well, thank goodness that “Rock, Paper, Scissors” is called that (among other things) in Germany. That must make it okay!
Because, like, we’re in Germany… and that’s German… and no game has ever used racist terminology… and all of that has so much to do with the name of the band… and…
I’m sorry, what was the point of that, again?
Safe to say the the band didn’t pay much attention to newspapers over the last month with Rosie O’Donnell getting into hot water over use of the “Ching Chong” words. The “I did not know that” defense only works a couple of times. Once being told by credible sources that terms are offensive, a person must be held to intend to offend if he or she continues to use the terms ( or at least be prepared continually to argue that the term is not meant to offend and expect market consequences of keeping it up).
Intent behind acts, statements or term and perception of them as offensive came up in the Valentines Day comments below and I take the liberty of bringing up some of my comment there here:
You’re always entitled to you feelings. However, if the topic is whether those offended feelings are reasonable, then I do think it’s fair to discuss whether being offended is justified by a particular act in a particular circumstance. More importantly when we get into the area of whether sanctions can be brought against someone in an employment or educational setting, the question of how to judge whether a particular act or statement is offensive enough to justify a sanction does involve whether to consider perception of the offended or the intent of the actor.
This is a big topic, so I won’t say much more on it. I’ve been readng about speech and harraassment codes in the university setting recently. Some of them still look to subjective perception of the offended as the hallmark. I’ll simply say at this point that a “reasonable person” standard on what is offensive or harrassment should apply and that what may be offensive according to the community standard may not justify sanctions. Freedom of speech at a state university is required by the 1st Amendment and usually aspired to in private universities.
William Donohue wants to know why you don’t like the gook jokes.
If Donohue weren’t so dumb and committed to offend for effect he might have had a point about ethnic humor worth discussing. Suppose he actually had an ethnic joke involving Asians (what he actually used was not a joke, simply a slur flung at a theoretical Asian ping pong team) and suppose some people thought it was funny. Should the joke, written by Andy Hao for the Columbia Marching Band, which referred to “Fordham tuition going down like an altar boy” be considered ethnic humor just as out of bounds as an ethnic Asian joke equally as funny?
Since when is Catholicism an ethnicity?
SixtiesLiberal,
Ethnicity aside, last I checked, it wasn’t cool to mock survivors of sexual abuse, either.
Typically, here in Germany, this game is called Stein, Schere, Papier, but that is besides the point.
It may also be referred to as “Ching Chang Chong” because many people here think that this game originated in Asia, and these words are thought to mimic what Germans think “Asian languages” sound like.
The name is just as racist whether you view it through an English-speaking lens or a German-speaking one.
I read the comments following the article penny linked and many of them were thoughtful. They raised the issue as zuzu does above about religion being a matter of choice and ethnicity not. Does that matter in deciding whether jokes about either are offensive? I’m not entirely sure myself. I remember laughing at Bill Clinton’s joke at Coretta King’s funeral. He thanked former Pres. and Barbara Bush for coming, even though they might be a little uncomfortable with the freewheeling Southern Baptist service, since the Bushes were part of the Episcopalean “frozen chosen”.
One of the commenters posted about humor as follows:
Well, it’s a gay joke and an asian joke at the same time, but arguably doesn’t demean either group. Does the fact that it’s ethnic (x2) automatically make it offensive?
When Rosie O’Donnell imitated Chinese people with a “chong, ching, chong” on her show, did you mind?
Yeah, that marching band joke is classist too, really. I’m guessing the context here — but it does seem like the Ivy League kid is sneering at the more working-class Fordham. Sort of like the “your gonna pump our gas some day” taunt.
And while Catholicism is certainly not an ethnicity, anti-Catholicism (the real, and rather rare now, I think, kind, not the bullshit Donohue kind) had a lot to do with fearing the filthy, breeding micks and dagos.
“When Rosie O’Donnell imitated Chinese people with a “chong, ching, chong” on her show, did you mind?”
uh yep, i seem to remember that being on a few of the feminist blogs, with them of course saying how wrong that was.
Hmm, did I mind? Well, I did recognize it as offensive, but since I’m no fan of Rosie I was kind of happy she stepped in it. I also figured with her self-righteousness she would bungle the apology, which she did. So, no, I didn’t mind; I actually enjoyed the whole thing.
This is a little different from Rosie’s gaffe; it kind of sounds like they were going for something like the band !!! (pronounced “chick chick chick”) I think it’s pretty plausible that the offensiveness didn’t occur to them.
Ridiculous, and I’m not talking about the story rather the ridiculousness of the accusations of racism. I highly doubt if you asked one of the band members if they’d ever committed any actual hate crimes against people you’d see how silly it is to call them racists because I’m sure they haven’t lynched anyone or made someone feel inferior because they named their band a few silly words.
I’m sure if the words “ching, chong” meant “kill the Chinese” you’d have an actual issue here, but you don’t. It’s just a bunch of sounds. I guess from now on ching and chong, two harmless words when used will cause a giant uproar, however harmless they actually are.
Or maybe we should all go attack every wind chime or gong we see because when the wind hits them right they go “chong chong, gong, ching” and that’s just racism everywhere!
Sure did.
So lynching is now the standard for racism? I can say whatever I want, but as long as I don’t kill or physically injure another person, it’s not racist?
“Nigger” is just a sound, too. Am I a racist if I going around calling people “niggers,” or is it just when I lynch a black person that I cross the line? What about when I call a woman a cunt? Sexist, or just a sound?
And Lindsay, read the Wikipedia link, which should demonstrate that these aren’t “just sounds.”
What is it lately with people coming up with the “hey, they’re not [whatever]ist because they’re not actually causing *harm*” and forgetting that there’s more than one kind of harm?
Gordon K ~ I don’t know, but I think it has something to do with the attitude expressed in the Avenue Q song, “Everyone’s a little bit racist.”
Ethnic jokes might be uncouth
but you laugh because they’re based on truth.
Don’t take them as personal attacks
Everyone enjoys them, so relax.
Some people don’t want to be bothered by worrying about their words, so if everyone just chills and doesn’t lynch, it’ll all be fine.
I think it also comes out of the shock humor of shows like South Park. It’s a fine balance between shockingly funny and racist and most people aren’t capable of treading that nuance.
In re: Everyone’s a lttle bit racist:
No… everyone does not enjoy ethnic jokes, especially if it targeted against your group.
South Park should not be basis of your reasoning. Behind the racist jokes, stereotypes, and caricatures is a historical context that is not at all funny…
Nuanced racism is still racism… it is wholly unacceptable, despite the fact you would rather rationalize your denial and immaturity.
But perhap some people aren’t capable of treading that nuance.
There is nothing new, interesting or funny about white people using racial slurs.
And as for the whole “ching chong” business, even Michelle Malkin admitted that she’d been called that as a child.
Church Lurch and Rosie didn’t apologize either like Michael Richards and Mel Gibson did (profusely) for their racism and anti-Semitism. Richards and Gibson also “went to rehab” to rehabilitate themselves I guess. Church Lurch and Rosie said I’m sorry people were offended which is different than saying I’m sorry I was anti-Semitic or racist. Now Isaiah Washington is in “rehab” for homophobia and I wonder if Hardaway is next (for homophobia).
So I wish Church Lurch and Rosie would go to rehab just to make anti-Asian racism an equal offense.
Hm. Apparently I didn’t make it clear that I don’t agree with the opinions expressed in the Avenue Q song or with South Park’s racist jokes, but that I was identifying two mainstream pop culture places where this “relax” attitude is perpetuated.
Your post would have been better without the attack on me in your name, though.
It’s so cutely clueless when a bunch of white folks talk about Asians.
Penny Lane: It’s crazy how Donohue doesn’t seem to get (and that no one on that show pointed out) that “gooks go home” is NOT a joke. Where’s the punch line? Seriously, it’s not a joke. It doesn’t in any way conform to any joke format out there… so how is it a joke?
Exangelena
So non-white people using racial slurs IS new, interesting and/or funny? I can’t imagine that’s really your point but specifically targeting white people in your comment… well, it doesn’t look good on you.
Yes, and, depressingly, the same kind of “it’s not really racism” comments ensued
Rhiannon–It is amazing that Donahue doesn’t understand that repeating the phrase “gook joke” over and over again is not in itself hilariously funny. Also on display is his patented debate style in which he furiously attempts to prevent his interlocutor from saying ANYTHING. And, of course, no one calls him on the fact that he calls anyone who mentions the Church Sex Scandal anti-Catholic.
I do find the point that the Fordham joke betrayed class bias interesting.
And when is Gwen Stefani going to stop parading around those horrible “harajuku girls?”
It’s so cutely clueless when people think they can discern ethnicity through the intertubes.
I highly doubt if you asked one of the band members if they’d ever committed any actual hate crimes against people you’d see how silly it is to call them racists because I’m sure they haven’t lynched anyone or made someone feel inferior because they named their band a few silly words.
I’m going to assume that you actually mean to say that you highly doubt that they’ve ever committed an actual hate crime, not that you highly doubt that we’d see how silly it is to call them racists.
There are plenty of people who do find the “Ching Chong Chinaman” slur to be pretty offensive. I don’t think you have to resort to physical violence in order to do something stupid and racist.
I also don’t think that acting on or having certain racist views makes you an evil person. Sometimes people hold racist/sexist/homophobic views or say racist/sexist/homophobic things without even fully realizing they’re doing it. Sometimes that happens.
If it does, the best response might not be to tell the people who call you on it that they’re “stupid petty retards.”
I don’t know… that’s just a hunch.
Regarding what Jill brings up, and Gordon K follows up on, there’s a book by two law professors called Words that Wound: Critical Race Theory, Assaultive Speech, and the First Amendment. At the heart of their argument is the idea that language is just as real and injury-causing as more physical forms of discrimination (e.g, it does the same work in keeping you in your place, it inflicts psychic violence, it naturalizes the dominant way of thinking that makes the privilege accorded to some groups to seem natural and right, etc.) Here’s the book jacket description.
“Words, like sticks and stones, can assault; they can injure; they can exclude. In this important book, four prominent legal scholars from the tradition of critical race theory draw on the experience of injury from racist hate speech to develop a first amendment interpretation that recognizes such injuries. In their critique of “first amendment orthodoxy,” the authors argue that only a history of racism can explain why defamation, invasion of privacy, and fraud are exempt from free-speech guarantees while racist and sexist verbal assaults are not.”
Rhiannon – I was mostly referring to an extremely exasperating discussion that went on here a while ago, where one of the bloggers (I think Jill) cited a story where a white conservative writer said that he doesn’t hate black people, he hates n****rs (which he had taken from the black comedian Chris Rock). And then there were white people in the comments saying, why is it ok for Chris Rock to say n****r but not for a white person to say it?
There are some people of color (or other traditionally subordinated groups, like gays or women) who will “reclaim” offensive terms (like “chick” or “queer”), and I wanted to leave them out of this discussion, because their use of those offensive terms is not meant to entrench prejudice and privilege, in the way that a person of the more privileged class using it as a slur would.
For example there was a post here awhile ago by piny that used the word “tranny” in the title, and that’s fine, but it wouldn’t be appropriate for me, a non-transgendered person, to scream “tranny” from the rooftops.
I understand that people of color can be racist, because I have nonwhite relatives who are racist, and both my family and I have experienced racism from other nonwhite groups.
I am in the middle of a book that discusses the “Words that Wound…” book and argues for a more absolutist position on First Amendment and free speech in the context of universities. That book is “The Shadow University” by Alan Kors (U. Penn historian) and Harvey Silverglate (Boston attorny and ACLU lawyer).
First Amendment protections only apply in state universities, of course, but private universities usually say they treasure the free exchange of ideas, even while enacting codes which do provide sanctions for offensive speech.
Once I’m done with this one I may go find the the “Words that Wound …” I’m hovering around a position that recognizes some words as assaultive, when their purpose from an objective viewpoint is intended solely to hurt rather than to make any political or artistic argument, but tolerates speech which has political content but is perceived as hurtful or offensive by people who hear it. And by “tolerate” I just mean don’t punish with prosecution for harrassment or impose academic sanctions (community service, probation, recorded conviction in student judicial proceedings, expulsion). “Tolerate” doesn’t mean don’t criticize.
Nomie, many of the commenters here have self-identified their race in the past, so I’m not using any magical powers or anything. If you’re implying that the internets are colorblind, I don’t think it is. Race exists here as much as anywhere.
Anyway, thanks for posting this, Jill, I’ve been kinda tracking this story from a distance. The band is getting a lot of publicity from this, so who knows, maybe in the end this will be good for them. I doubt they’ll have many progressive fans, though.
When I was a kid, Mom would recite this rhyme at bedtime:
Ten little monkeys jumpin’ on the bed,
One fell down an’ broke his head.
Took him to the doctor and the doctor said,
NO MO’ MONKEYS JUMPIN’ ON THE BED!
(repeat for the other 9 monkeys)
I didn’t think anything of it at the time, of course. Besides, the mental image of ten screaming, hairy apes bouncing on an old mattress was just too funny.
Knowing the nature of these sort of rhymes, “monkey” was probably originally “nigger”. Mom says she learned the rhyme from her mother, and it was “monkey” back then, too (I didn’t mention that it used to be “nigger”.) The real kicker? We’re black. I’ve been reciting a self-depicrating rhyme for over 20 years and not realized it.
@@
Uh, Donna…Gibson went to rehab for massive alcoholism, and Richards went to rehab because he was pretty clearly on something on the order of cocaine–not for being racists. And their ‘profuse’ apologies were mostly on the order of ‘I’m not a racist/sexist/homophobe/anti-Semite, and I’m sorry people were offended by my outburst.’ I don’t really buy it, any more than I buy Rosie’s bullshit non-apology.
And as much as Isaiah Washington’s rehab-for-homophobia thing gets joked about, it’s not the homophobia he went to rehab for. There is no ‘homophobia rehab.’ If they’re connected, it’s through a claim that whatever he’s abusing caused him to speak injudiciously.
The non-apologies are common to the lot of them, as far as I’m concerned. And since O’Donnell was just being a racist, and not, say, blackout drunk or flying on coke when she did so, rehab is hardly the solution. (the question of whether or not it makes her nonsense less excusable remains to be seen. At least her racism wasn’t violently hostile, just stupid.) This whole trivilization of rehab in the news, lately, drives me nuts. That’s not how it works.
I want anti-Asian bigotry to be taken seriously as much as the next Asian-American does, but seriously. Let’s not mix and match our cases and consequences.
Laser, why would you assume that? I never heard it that way in 8 years as a kid in Tennessee in the 50’s (with side trips to North Carolina for grandparents). I heard plenty of other uses of the word then, so I wasn’t just being oblivious. I’m also not oblivious to the use of “monkey” as a disparaging moniker for blacks. (I heard Howard Cosell’s blunder with it in reference to Redskins’ Gary Clark on live tv.) But for the rhyme, it works,doesn’t it? The cadence fits, and we all have images of monkeys bouncing around in trees, so it fits the bedtime bouncing too. It was harmless in itself, unless you consider it deprecating in that context. Ain’t nothing wrong with keeping that memory with your mom a good one.
Laser Potato,
I also was sung this song at bedtime (I’m white) and it never occurred to me until *just now* that the song might have racist origins.
I did know, however, that my version of “Eeeny, meeny, miny, mo” didn’t always have “catch a tiger by the toe” as the second line.
Sorry, little light, I was being glib. Didn’t Richard apologize for being racist and say he was going to work on himself? Gibson also said he had to to work on himself. I realize they had substance abuse problems but their entrance into rehab programs immediately followed these racial incidences which seemed to coincide with their announcements that they were “working on themselves.” I realize there’s no rehab for homophobia but similar to Mark Foley’s admittance to rehab following his admission of guilt about messaging minors, rehab coincides with admissions of guilt.
From ABC News:
“Grey’s Anatomy” star Isaiah Washington has announced that he will check into a treatment center for psychological evaluation, following the controversy over his anti-gay slur against co-star T.R. Knight.
“I have begun counseling,” Washington said. “I regard this as a necessary step toward understanding why I did what I did and making sure it never happens again.”
Related: Are Celebs Using Rehab as Excuse?
Washington is just the latest in a string of celebrities and politicians who have sought psychological or addiction treatment following public scandals.
Do all of these people need rehab, or are they using it as an excuse for bad behavior?
Anti-Gay Slur Revisited
At first, Washington denied reports that he had referred to Knight by an anti-gay slur. Then he raised eyebrows with a public statement at the Golden Globe awards.
“No, I did not call him a f—t,” Washington said in front of reporters.
That made the whole thing worse, though. Knight appeared on the “The Ellen DeGeneres Show,” saying that he was shocked by Washington’s denial.
On “Access Hollywood,” another “Grey’s Anatomy” co-star Katherine Heigl said: “He [Washington] just needs to stop talking.”
Washington apologized and planned to meet with gay rights groups; then he announced his decision to go to rehab.
Image Rehab Only?
That move could backfire, however.
“Going to treatment is a good option for people who need help, but going to treatment for people who are looking just to shift the blame and otherwise avoid the consequences is not a good thing,” said William Moyers, an addiction treatment expert.
Some say more celebrities and public figures seem to be using rehab to clean up their image instead of vanquish their demons.
At least he apologized and rehab is an admission of guilt:
Church Lurch and Rosie have not apologized for being racist and have not met with Asian groups.
The rhyme I learned as “Ten Little Indians” (another one of those count-em-down rhymes) was originally “Ten Little N****r Boys.” Of course, “Ten Little Indians” is no great shakes, either. In fact, the Agatha Christie novel And Then There Were None was Ten Little N. Boys first, then Ten Little Indians, before gaining the title it as today.
Also, my copy of Where the Sidewalk Ends has the poem “The Gypsies Are Coming,” which in later editions became “The Googies Are Coming.”
Exangelena:
It’s just having been a victim of racism when I was a child, it’s always a bit painful to see the negative trait aimed only at the color of *my* skin. Given my past, I’m a bit sensitive to inuendo’s of “only white people are racists/bigots”. So I felt obligated to point that out. I was fairly certain that wasn’t how you meant it.
So … white people are not supposed to criticize other white people for being racist? Huh?
Rosie made a half-assed apology so she did apologize. Kind of. With that annoying “if anyone was offended” qualifier.
Personally, I strongly suspect that what Isaiah Washington underwent was anger management classes, not “anti-homophobia rehab” or whatever it was supposed to be. He’s got a major temper and I believe he has been fired from movies before for fighting with his co-workers.
When told that a term you’re using is racist and offensive, the correct response is embarrassment and “Oh, I am so sorry! I had no idea! I’ll stop using that term immediately.” Not defensiveness and explanations as to why other people shouldn’t be offended by offensive language.
Sheesh.
Mnemosyne, sorry that line was confusing, especially since I just kinda dropped it and took off, letting it stand alone…but I was referring to white folks who aren’t convinced that “ching chong” is racist. White folks who see the obvious racism are not the ones I’m calling clueless…
Peace.
Mnemosyne, he was referring to cutely clueless Kaytie who thinks people should relax, chill and get over it.
Ah, okay. That’s what I thought, but I wanted to be sure. You see people say some weird things on the intertubes sometimes. ;-)
Donna Darko, Mnemosyne and all –
No, I do not think people should relax and let people be harmlessly racist. I clarified my point in my second post, that I was referring to two mainstream pop culture phenomenons where this “relax” attitude is perpetuated, in response to Gordon K’s possibly rhetorical question about where this relax attitude comes from.
Posts 17, 18, 19 and 23.
And yes, I regret that I wasn’t clear enough the first time around.
I don’t think that the “Harajuku girls” comment is racist–it’s descriptive. And I know EXACTLY what the person is referencing because I used to quite often take visitors to Meiji-jingu on the weekends and see the teeny-bopper clones.
“Shibuya gaaru” was the term I ran into more in discussion with friends. “Shibuya gaaru” at the time I was there referred to: young female, hair dyed grey, moonboots, pale lipstick and very over-made-up eyes, kaleidoscopic clothing. The “uniform” has undoubtedly now changed.
God I love Tokyo….
from the wikipedia link: “[Shaquille] O’Neal was quoted as saying, “You tell Yao Ming, ‘Ching-chong-yang-wah-ah-soh.’” Yao Ming responded with: “Chinese is a hard language to learn.””
Shaq 0, Yao Ming 1. Nice.
What’s everybody’s stance on Hong Kong Phooey?
Kaytie, sorry. I misread your comments.
Donna, Thank you. You can imagine how horrified I was to think I might be stuck with that early impression around here!
I’m going to make sure, in the future, that my posts are clearer than that one was.
Cheers,
Whenever someone says “Hong Kong Phooey”, all I can think of is Scatman Crothers…
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