Mackenzie,

I’m still willing to contest the statement that anorexia is the only sure fire way to lose weight.
It isn’t a sure fire way to lose weight. The reality is that there are anorexics out there who are “heavy” and aren’t losing weight dispite their anorexia.
You also claim that conventional dieting ALWAYS leads to rebound weight gain. That’s complete and utter BS. I’ll be the first one to raise my hand and attest to the fact that I’m eating and behaving in an intelligent manner and have for years now maintained a body weight below my pre-anorexic weight. I’m quite certain there are plenty of other wierdos like me who can blow your theories to bit if you would stop inundating us with your opinions long enough to witness our realities.

I would love to understand why it is you think you know more about anorexia than anorexics do.
Your black and white style of thought and preaching are over-simplified, destructive and completely wrong.

I call troll.

Nope — I’m also including people who make committed “lifestyle changes.” I think the social demonization of fat has radically altered how researchers study fatness.

Well, then, I’m glad to know that my husband and I are complete and utter freaks who have not only lost weight but — shocker! — kept it off for at least three years. (My husband has kept his off for over 10 years.)

I actually know a lot of people who have lost weight and kept it off, but I guess they’re all freaks, because “everyone knows” that statistic from 20 years ago that says that it’s impossible to keep weight off.

So subtle that I’d miss it entirely, but not subtle enough that I’d internalize it even slightly?

You can internalize a subtle new view while missing it entirely at a conscious level. It’s not mutually exclusive.

Look, if you changed your view about your disease during therapy, chances are it happened.

What part of the eating disorder constitutes this moderate perspective in other cultures?

Binging, purging, fasting, food rituals, social meanings for body size, etc. Pretty much everything cited in EDs.

pigeon:

i’ve yet to meet a care provider or a person in recovery who’d suggest as much.

You’re conflating subsidary objectives with ultiamte objectives. I’m talking about the latter; you’re talking about the former.

if you’re going to AA because of a court mandate, you don’t *have* to do anything but show up. and the rules you’re being subject to are not set down by AA, they’re the court’s.

Wrong again. Courts frequently demand updates which must be confirmed by AA members. It’s why the step about surrendering power to God is problematic.

how is that blaming the victim? i did not say 12-step programs are the only thing that work & those who didn’t find success in them weren’t willing to do the work. i said that that has been my experience within them.

That’s the clear implication of your assertion: “my experience is that 12-step programs work for those who are willing to do the work.” If people are willing to do the work, then the programs work. Therefore, if the programs don’t work, it’s the fault of the individual. To the extent that this has been “your experience,” then you are blaming the victim.

are you really going to argue that people who aren’t ready or willing to deal with their addictions miraculously fall into recovery? they become willing, or they don’t.

Absolutely: I have considerable experience with the American legal system, particularly as it is related to health care issues.

and i know lots of people in AA who decided they didn’t need to do all the steps. do i agree with their decisions? no, not really.

Then this contradicts your assertion that 12 step programs aren’t the only things that work.

in my experience that doesn’t equate becoming an outcast within the group.

Of course this hasn’t been your experience — you’re not the one questioning the party line.

I suggest you record the sessions and parse their reactions: body language and linguistic analysis supports this assertion. More importantly, so far I’ve yet to meet anyone who disagreed with the party line who didn’t feel ostracized.

that doesn’t make my assertion “unquestioned” or mean that i’m parroting back what doctor’s have told me.

Questioning my arguments =/= Questioning psychology’s assertions.

Despite the fact that you claim this, I don’t see an iota of evidence in your substantive arguments that this is actually occurring.

Mnemsomne:

S/he’s seeing a very select group: people who can afford hospital treatment.

Only because that’s the scope of the argument — we’re talking about psychological treatment. I’ve argued in the past (in academic forums, not here) that a major problem with the disease construction of both addictions and EDs has to do with how a tiny slice of patients are treated.

But if you’re trying to say that any weight loss inevitably leads to a re-gain (as I’ve seen some people say in other threads)

I have an epidemiology background, so I tend to not use the word “inevitable.” But statistically speaking, this is true.

If by “conventional dieting” you mean people who do Atkins or South Beach Diet for a few weeks or months and then go back to their old habits, you’re pretty much right.

Nope — I’m also including people who make committed “lifestyle changes.” I think the social demonization of fat has radically altered how researchers study fatness.

But that’s a different subject for a different thread.

white upper middle-class women are not the only ones with eating disorders. they are the ones who can afford help.

I think this is the part that Mackenzie is missing. S/he’s seeing a very select group: people who can afford hospital treatment. That means that the people she sees are probably white (possibly Asian) and at least middle-class, probably upper-middle-class if they can take time out of their lives for hospitalization.

Now that they’ve found that binging (without purging) is the most common eating disorder, don’t be surprised if an ED diagnosis suddenly becomes very declasse, so to speak.

Conventional dieting always leads to a rebound weight gain.

If by “conventional dieting” you mean people who do Atkins or South Beach Diet for a few weeks or months and then go back to their old habits, you’re pretty much right. But if you’re trying to say that any weight loss inevitably leads to a re-gain (as I’ve seen some people say in other threads), you should spend some time with this web site.

Then why does it exist in other cultures as a moderate perspective?

What part of the eating disorder constitutes this moderate perspective in other cultures?

Yup.

Okay, so do you starve yourself sometimes? Are you able to keep from abstaining from food only so long as you abstain from television? What parts of the disorder do you refrain from, and what parts are you allowed to keep?

my experience is that 12-step programs work for those who are willing to do the work (i think it’s safe to say that no program will work for someone who isn’t willing).

how is that blaming the victim? i did not say 12-step programs are the only thing that work & those who didn’t find success in them weren’t willing to do the work. i said that that has been my experience within them.

are you really going to argue that people who aren’t ready or willing to deal with their addictions miraculously fall into recovery? they become willing, or they don’t.

Think about this for a second. What happens if someone feels that the fourth step “suggestion” doesn’t apply to them? What’s the social consequence within the group? What happens for people ordered to AA for DUIs if they say that they don’t feel like following one or more suggestion?

if you’re going to AA because of a court mandate, you don’t *have* to do anything but show up. and the rules you’re being subject to are not set down by AA, they’re the court’s.

and i know lots of people in AA who decided they didn’t need to do all the steps. do i agree with their decisions? no, not really. in my experience that doesn’t equate becoming an outcast within the group. do people judge? of course. AA is full of people, no one is perfect. we’re human. but AA is there for the alcoholic who still suffers, sober or drunk, and you stay sober by giving back to others. AA makes the suggestions it does because those suggestions have been incredibly successful in the lives of millions. that still doesn’t make them rules.

I know. The entire point of my posts is to question this unquestioned assertion

you and i fundamentally disagree about the nature of addiction. that doesn’t make my assertion “unquestioned” or mean that i’m parroting back what doctor’s have told me.

as i said above more than once, this is my experience. you’re entitled to yours. i’m done arguing with you. to each their own.

In therapy sessions, these ideas come out in far more subtle, indirect ways. If you’re not familiar with the specific disease constructions beforehand, you’ll probably miss them. (Hell, I did.)

So subtle that I’d miss it entirely, but not subtle enough that I’d internalize it even slightly?

my experience is that an addict cannot moderately participate in their addiction. i can’t use everyone now and then no more than i can’t fast or purge every now and then. so if someone comes to me asking for help, that is the experience i have to share with them. no one is telling anyone else what is or is not true for them. you share your experience and if it resonates with someone else, they can do with it what they will.

(shrug)

I know people, myself included, who have gone through periods where their disordered behaviors were less frequent or less extreme. Sometimes that has to do with the amount of stress they’re under, and sometimes it has to do with changes in their surroundings or routine. I have no idea whether or not I could sustain a moderate level of disordered behavior indefinitely. It might be possible, but that’s…irrelevant. Frequency was sometimes a measure of how stressed out I was; it was not a measure of how unwell I was.

If there are people who can only make it as far as starving themselves sometimes, then I respect their needs. And if there are people who somehow manage to exhibit some of the same disordered behavior without the disordered mindset, good for them. But that’s not how it works for me, or for anyone I’ve ever encountered.