Comments on: Tea and Crumpets http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/ In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 09:13:48 +0000 hourly 1 By: philosophizer http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89133 philosophizer Sat, 24 Feb 2007 01:38:59 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89133 so what about the differences between European style and American? for example, if I recall correctly from fancy dinners out with the French Club in high school, where American table style says to keep your free hand in your lap when not using it, Continental style frowns on it and prefers you keep both hands above the table line. I used to be really into table ettiquette trivia, but never found a satisfactory answer to that. I need to know these things - I work for a business-casual IT startup now, but I may be a political wife someday! so what about the differences between European style and American? for example, if I recall correctly from fancy dinners out with the French Club in high school, where American table style says to keep your free hand in your lap when not using it, Continental style frowns on it and prefers you keep both hands above the table line. I used to be really into table ettiquette trivia, but never found a satisfactory answer to that.

I need to know these things – I work for a business-casual IT startup now, but I may be a political wife someday!

]]> By: Red Stapler http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89109 Red Stapler Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:52:04 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89109 <em>lucizoe:</em> Yes. Yes it was. :) <em>larkspur:</em> Thank you for your post. You eloquently made all the points I was trying to. People entering the workforce are expected to exhibit certain habits. Some are taught in schools...most are not. There's plenty I didn't know <em>after graduating college.</em> This isn't a gender or race thing. This is a "world is changing, but not all of it at the same time" thing. lucizoe: Yes. Yes it was. :)

larkspur: Thank you for your post. You eloquently made all the points I was trying to.

People entering the workforce are expected to exhibit certain habits. Some are taught in schools…most are not. There’s plenty I didn’t know after graduating college.

This isn’t a gender or race thing. This is a “world is changing, but not all of it at the same time” thing.

]]> By: zuzu http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89091 zuzu Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:27:50 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89091 It was always one of those unspoken-but-well-known things, though I have heard of cases of judges sanctioning attorneys for wearing pants b/c they didn't show the proper respect for the court. I finally started wearing pants to court in 2000, when I had a hearing in front of Kimba Wood and I could see she was wearing pants under her robe. It was always one of those unspoken-but-well-known things, though I have heard of cases of judges sanctioning attorneys for wearing pants b/c they didn’t show the proper respect for the court.

I finally started wearing pants to court in 2000, when I had a hearing in front of Kimba Wood and I could see she was wearing pants under her robe.

]]> By: lawbitch http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89086 lawbitch Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:12:24 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89086 zuzu, is there some precedent that judges cannot require females to wear skirts in court? I've been out of Texas for many years, and I must have missed something. Many thanks for assisting me to avoid skirts (and panty hose, which brings up another contested issue). zuzu, is there some precedent that judges cannot require females to wear skirts in court? I’ve been out of Texas for many years, and I must have missed something. Many thanks for assisting me to avoid skirts (and panty hose, which brings up another contested issue).

]]> By: syfr http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89076 syfr Fri, 23 Feb 2007 18:20:04 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89076 My understanding is that Catholic Charities is separate from the Catholic Church, and so that it could behave in a non-discriminatory fashion and receive federal funds. Of course, with the Chimp in charge, that could have all changed. My understanding is that Catholic Charities is separate from the Catholic Church, and so that it could behave in a non-discriminatory fashion and receive federal funds. Of course, with the Chimp in charge, that could have all changed.

]]> By: Aimee http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89056 Aimee Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:08:34 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89056 @ #3:<em> It maintains the view that the workplace is a white-normed place, that business values are white, middle-to-upper-class values, not those of ‘the other.’ This suggests (and I want to acknowledge possible transgression) that others who try to enter these spaces and act on the white terms will be seen, if they are seen at all, as intruders.</em> As someone else pointed out, this is TRUE (that the workplace is white-normed and minorities are often seen as intruders--which is part of why they may not get hired) in many cases. Our society as a whole is incredibly white-normed (see Robert Jensen's "The Heart of Whiteness" for his explanation of why the US is essentially a white supremacist society). Of course, the solution isn't erasing minority identities by imposing white values on them. Ideally, proper business behavior would become something that trascends racial boundaries--but who knows how/if/when that's going to happen. With regard to the makeup issue, the book "Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office" (Lois Frankel) features an anecdote that was really striking to me. I may not have it entirely right (and that might not even be the right book, but I think so), but I'll try to communicate the gist of it. Essentially, the (male) colleagues of a female scientist were asked what the female scientist should do to present a more professional image. The most prevalent answer? She should wear more makeup. Not conduct more research, publish more papers, write more books, or teach more classes. If a woman is to be viewed as professional, even in the sciences (a discipline I wouldn't have associated with the whole skirt/heels/makeup thang), she needs to WEAR MORE MAKEUP. Wow. @ #3: It maintains the view that the workplace is a white-normed place, that business values are white, middle-to-upper-class values, not those of ‘the other.’ This suggests (and I want to acknowledge possible transgression) that others who try to enter these spaces and act on the white terms will be seen, if they are seen at all, as intruders.

As someone else pointed out, this is TRUE (that the workplace is white-normed and minorities are often seen as intruders–which is part of why they may not get hired) in many cases. Our society as a whole is incredibly white-normed (see Robert Jensen’s “The Heart of Whiteness” for his explanation of why the US is essentially a white supremacist society). Of course, the solution isn’t erasing minority identities by imposing white values on them. Ideally, proper business behavior would become something that trascends racial boundaries–but who knows how/if/when that’s going to happen.

With regard to the makeup issue, the book “Nice Girls Don’t Get the Corner Office” (Lois Frankel) features an anecdote that was really striking to me. I may not have it entirely right (and that might not even be the right book, but I think so), but I’ll try to communicate the gist of it. Essentially, the (male) colleagues of a female scientist were asked what the female scientist should do to present a more professional image. The most prevalent answer? She should wear more makeup. Not conduct more research, publish more papers, write more books, or teach more classes. If a woman is to be viewed as professional, even in the sciences (a discipline I wouldn’t have associated with the whole skirt/heels/makeup thang), she needs to WEAR MORE MAKEUP. Wow.

]]> By: zuzu http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89043 zuzu Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:01:45 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89043 I was required to wear skirts up until 1998. And until the turn of the century, it was questionable whether you could wear pants to court. I was required to wear skirts up until 1998. And until the turn of the century, it was questionable whether you could wear pants to court.

]]> By: lawbitch http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89041 lawbitch Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:58:10 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89041 <em>Didn’t some law firms and random ass-backwards judges - until extremely recently, and perhaps even still - require that female associates wear make-up and skirts?</em> I know that there is a judge in Texas that requires all women appearing before him to wear skirts. I think that he's still on the bench. It'll be a another decade or so before we get rid of some really geriatric judges in Texas. Didn’t some law firms and random ass-backwards judges – until extremely recently, and perhaps even still – require that female associates wear make-up and skirts?

I know that there is a judge in Texas that requires all women appearing before him to wear skirts. I think that he’s still on the bench. It’ll be a another decade or so before we get rid of some really geriatric judges in Texas.

]]> By: anonycat http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89008 anonycat Fri, 23 Feb 2007 05:46:58 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-89008 I do think the tea/beauty pageant thing sounds pretty ridiculous, but I can definitely see how even some of the 'girly' stuff could be useful. For example, I've never understood why <strike>face paint</strike> makeup should be mandated in any business-related setting -- who the f*** cares whether my eyelids are blue, much less how long my eyelashes are? But it is often an unspoken requirement, and as such, I would appreciate being shown what makeup is appropriate if I aspired to such a job. (I'm a dancer, so I can do stage makeup just fine, but I honestly don't know 'how' to wear makeup off the stage.) None of which is to say that I think it's a good thing that I would need to learn that skill; that's a different debate. I do think the tea/beauty pageant thing sounds pretty ridiculous, but I can definitely see how even some of the ‘girly’ stuff could be useful. For example, I’ve never understood why face paint makeup should be mandated in any business-related setting — who the f*** cares whether my eyelids are blue, much less how long my eyelashes are? But it is often an unspoken requirement, and as such, I would appreciate being shown what makeup is appropriate if I aspired to such a job. (I’m a dancer, so I can do stage makeup just fine, but I honestly don’t know ‘how’ to wear makeup off the stage.)
None of which is to say that I think it’s a good thing that I would need to learn that skill; that’s a different debate.

]]> By: Kat http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-88991 Kat Fri, 23 Feb 2007 03:55:56 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/02/21/tea-and-crumpets/#comment-88991 Well, Glastonbury could be considered multi-cultural if you count the Townies.... ;) Well, Glastonbury could be considered multi-cultural if you count the Townies…. ;)

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