For those people who view women’s bodies as commodities, like $100 bills or wallets, to be “taken” by someone who “wants” that object, it makes sense to rely on protective arguments and suggestions. For them, rape is not a crime of violence, but one of passion and of giving in to temptation. Women, like $100 bills, are vulnerable precisely because people want them in a positive way. Thieves aren’t interested in hurting $100 bills, they’re simply interested in having them and having the things that they can buy. But rapists are very interested in hurting women. They may also be interested in sexual gratification, but that gratification is coming from injuring someone else, not from sex itself. Men are not so animalistic that, at the very presence of an erection, they absolutely must put it in someone, even if doing so means physically hurting someone else. But that is what the sex-as-commodity crowd would have you believe: That sex is something women possess and men want, and if some men see sex (also known as “women”) then they will take it.

Hmm. I’d question some of what you’re saying, but in a very subtle way.

I don’t think that all rapists *want* to hurt women. Some do, for sure, and you can hear it in some of the talk misogynists use. Just like some bullies get of on hurting others, some rapists get off on hurting their victims.

But there’s another class of bully that just wants to get what (he, in this case) wants. It’s not about the pain; (he might even try to minimize any (physical) pain), but getting what he wants. A rapist has a clear willingness to see another human being suffer, but maybe doesn’t actively desire it.

I think it’s important to recognize that both types of rapist continue to rape despite clear signs of nonconsent; rape doesn’t happen accidentally. Both have to be sick enough to keep going despite clear knowledge that someone else is being hurt.

I suppose you could argue that there must be some enjoyment in causing hurt, or the guy would lose his erection, and you might be right. It’s just, well, I know some guys, and I’m sure some of them are able to just blank out the pain. It doesn’t add anything for them, but it also doesn’t subtract anything.

I could be wrong about this, and I certainly don’t argue with your main point, that rape is an entirely different crime from swiping money (even if it’s a mugging, not theft) because rape requires directly, and obviously, hurting the victim in the very process of the rapist trying to get what he wants.

And I’m not really sure the difference matters all that much. It certainly doesn’t to the victim! But I think it might matter in discussions of rape as a cultural thing.

Blaming men– It’s like blaming the untrained dog for crapping on the floor.

As zuzu points out, we do, in fact, TRAIN dogs to not crap on the floor. Are men such useless beasts that we lack even a dogs capacity to learn desired behavioral patterns? I never understand how such “Boys will be Boys” responses are somehow excused from being far more anti-male than anything those who proclaim it could even imagine from the supposed anti-men straw-feminists that they’ve created.

I don’t accept that men should be excused from civilized society by virtue of having a penis. I don’t accept then men are nothing but fearsome creatures to protect oneself from. No man should accept these excuses. The supposedly pro-male purposes of anti-feminists are wildly betrayed when they launch into this line of thought. There is nothing pro-male about excusing, condoning, or trivializing sexual assault. That’s not what being a man is about. A major factor in sexual assault is the way males are conditioned to view seem themselves as dominant over women. To sex as a conquest rather than an equal partnership. If we want to change a culture of sexual assault, we need to be lecturing and teaching MEN.

Anyone can take steps to be more safe, obviously. But constantly obsessing over “prevention” as a victim’s responsibility will do nothing to stop sexual assault. We need to change the culture of male entitlement. That means men have to stop making excuses for their gender. We have to demand better of ourselves and we have to teach others, our sons, brothers, and friends, to do the same and to expect others to do the same. We have to put the responsibility for change where it most appropriately lies. With men.

I wish I had some male insight onto how to get “Men” to listen, but I never really understood male entitlement. I guess we just have to treat men like dogs and keeping smacking us in the back of our heads with great posts like this until we get the picture.

Um, he’s comparing all men to dogs that take a crap on your floor, and we’re the man-haters?

It’s not hate if it lets people get away with doing what they want without any repercussions.

Or something.

Blaming men– It’s like blaming the untrained dog for crapping on the floor.

Um, he’s comparing all men to dogs that take a crap on your floor, and we’re the man-haters?

Blaming men– It’s like blaming the untrained dog for crapping on the floor.

And whaddaya know — dogs can be trained not to crap on the floor.

wren: if no one beats me to it: genderqueer is a gender identity claimed by people who do not wish to define as male or female, but equally don’t consider themselves trans, which would imply changing from one to another. Genderqueers may consider that they fall at any point on a spectrum of gender, at many points on it, or that they are gender-neutral.