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	<title>Comments on: Missing the Point</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 03:57:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: MDtoMN</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92499</link>
		<dc:creator>MDtoMN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 03:33:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92499</guid>
		<description>Previously I&#039;ve tended to comment when I disagreed with you.  On this, I say &quot;Right On!&quot;  Honestly,I hear this sort of thing way too often - for lawyers, from Ivy Leaguers, from members of specific ethnic groups, etc.  It&#039;s so disgusting, it makes me want to vomit.  And so ignorant.  The fact that a newspaper will publish this but not curse words really tells us something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Previously I&#8217;ve tended to comment when I disagreed with you.  On this, I say &#8220;Right On!&#8221;  Honestly,I hear this sort of thing way too often &#8211; for lawyers, from Ivy Leaguers, from members of specific ethnic groups, etc.  It&#8217;s so disgusting, it makes me want to vomit.  And so ignorant.  The fact that a newspaper will publish this but not curse words really tells us something.</p>
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		<title>By: Margaret</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92479</link>
		<dc:creator>Margaret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92479</guid>
		<description>Zuzu, I missed that article but will look for it.  I am not an expert at all on admissions-- but find it a fascinating topic generally, so am always interested in learning more.

&lt;i&gt;Please explain how paying attention to an unjustifiable, anti-merit admissions practice with its roots in bigotry actually detracts from looking at how privilege operates in other ways.&lt;/i&gt;

It doesn&#039;t.  I suppose that&#039;s my point.   

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zuzu, I missed that article but will look for it.  I am not an expert at all on admissions&#8211; but find it a fascinating topic generally, so am always interested in learning more.</p>
<p><i>Please explain how paying attention to an unjustifiable, anti-merit admissions practice with its roots in bigotry actually detracts from looking at how privilege operates in other ways.</i></p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t.  I suppose that&#8217;s my point.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92475</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92475</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Yeah, I think that’s a factor, but I tend to think that people (not zuzu in the post, but people in general) emphasize legacy admissions at the expense of looking at the other ways in which privilege operates to keep certain people in the “in club” and others out.&lt;/i&gt;

Please explain how paying attention to an unjustifiable, anti-merit admissions practice with its roots in bigotry actually detracts from looking at how privilege operates in other ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Yeah, I think that’s a factor, but I tend to think that people (not zuzu in the post, but people in general) emphasize legacy admissions at the expense of looking at the other ways in which privilege operates to keep certain people in the “in club” and others out.</i></p>
<p>Please explain how paying attention to an unjustifiable, anti-merit admissions practice with its roots in bigotry actually detracts from looking at how privilege operates in other ways.</p>
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		<title>By: zuzu</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92474</link>
		<dc:creator>zuzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:52:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92474</guid>
		<description>Margaret, did you happen to read the Malcom Gladwell article from a year or so ago about the Ivies&#039; admissions policies?  It&#039;s unfortunately not on the New Yorker website (I have yet to figure out their policies), but if you can find it, it&#039;s an eye-opening examination about how very different the admissions process for the Ivies is than the remainder of the colleges in the US.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Margaret, did you happen to read the Malcom Gladwell article from a year or so ago about the Ivies&#8217; admissions policies?  It&#8217;s unfortunately not on the New Yorker website (I have yet to figure out their policies), but if you can find it, it&#8217;s an eye-opening examination about how very different the admissions process for the Ivies is than the remainder of the colleges in the US.</p>
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		<title>By: Margaret</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92472</link>
		<dc:creator>Margaret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92472</guid>
		<description>Mythago asks, &quot;So what?&quot;  Well, it seems to me that if we want to address the problem of unearned privilege in college admissions, we should have a sense of how unearned privilege actually operates.  What are the main factors that give a student unearned privilege? Is it legacy admissions? Yeah, I think that&#039;s a factor, but I tend to think that people (not zuzu in the post, but people in general) emphasize legacy admissions at the expense of looking at the other ways in which privilege operates to keep certain people in the &quot;in club&quot; and others out.  

In some ways, I think the exaggerated popular belief in legacy admissions is perhaps another factor that sometimes keeps less privileged student out.  If you think, &quot;I&#039;ve got no shot at Yale because everyone in my family went to community college,&quot; then you may not bother applying even though you may actually be very bright.  The truth is that vast swathes of bright but unprivileged high school kids are not attending the most prestigious colleges for a variety of reasons, of which legacy admissions are only one factor.   

And no, I am not defending legacy admissions.  Just trying to work through the issues raised in the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mythago asks, &#8220;So what?&#8221;  Well, it seems to me that if we want to address the problem of unearned privilege in college admissions, we should have a sense of how unearned privilege actually operates.  What are the main factors that give a student unearned privilege? Is it legacy admissions? Yeah, I think that&#8217;s a factor, but I tend to think that people (not zuzu in the post, but people in general) emphasize legacy admissions at the expense of looking at the other ways in which privilege operates to keep certain people in the &#8220;in club&#8221; and others out.  </p>
<p>In some ways, I think the exaggerated popular belief in legacy admissions is perhaps another factor that sometimes keeps less privileged student out.  If you think, &#8220;I&#8217;ve got no shot at Yale because everyone in my family went to community college,&#8221; then you may not bother applying even though you may actually be very bright.  The truth is that vast swathes of bright but unprivileged high school kids are not attending the most prestigious colleges for a variety of reasons, of which legacy admissions are only one factor.   </p>
<p>And no, I am not defending legacy admissions.  Just trying to work through the issues raised in the post.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92470</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92470</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I only said (up in comment 18) that legacies are not admitted with as much ease these days as in the past and that people tend to exaggerate how easy it is for a legacy to be admitted to a place like Harvard&lt;/i&gt;

So what? They&#039;re still a vestige of a system designed to keep Jews and Catholics out of higher education, and they&#039;re still a pointless exercise in whoring out college slots based on money and nepotism, not merit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I only said (up in comment 18) that legacies are not admitted with as much ease these days as in the past and that people tend to exaggerate how easy it is for a legacy to be admitted to a place like Harvard</i></p>
<p>So what? They&#8217;re still a vestige of a system designed to keep Jews and Catholics out of higher education, and they&#8217;re still a pointless exercise in whoring out college slots based on money and nepotism, not merit.</p>
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		<title>By: Frumious B</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92445</link>
		<dc:creator>Frumious B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:55:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92445</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;a trend he says is pushing many of his alumni to marry not so bright women.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Funny how that trend isn&#039;t pushing his alum to marry not so bright men.

Re:  intelligence and autism:

there&#039;s a hypothesis which gets a lot of press that personality aspects which accompany geekitude are in fact low level autism.  when geeks breed with each other, they produce autistic children.  the evidence?  a high incidence of autism cases in Northern California.

there are several questions to be asked, like, if we define geekitude to be apptitude in computer programming, does the diagnosis trend hold for programmers nationwide?  or, if we define geekitude to consist of some collection of social behaviors, does the diagnosis trend hold across careers?  or, is the rash of diagnoses in NoCal even real?  (that one might be a yes, but I&#039;m not sure.)

re:  legacies:

the upperclassmen advisor at my undergrad university once said &quot;One dumb, rich guy can pay for three smart, poor guys.&quot;  I don&#039;t know if that&#039;s really how the economics work out, but it&#039;s funny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>a trend he says is pushing many of his alumni to marry not so bright women.</p></blockquote>
<p>Funny how that trend isn&#8217;t pushing his alum to marry not so bright men.</p>
<p>Re:  intelligence and autism:</p>
<p>there&#8217;s a hypothesis which gets a lot of press that personality aspects which accompany geekitude are in fact low level autism.  when geeks breed with each other, they produce autistic children.  the evidence?  a high incidence of autism cases in Northern California.</p>
<p>there are several questions to be asked, like, if we define geekitude to be apptitude in computer programming, does the diagnosis trend hold for programmers nationwide?  or, if we define geekitude to consist of some collection of social behaviors, does the diagnosis trend hold across careers?  or, is the rash of diagnoses in NoCal even real?  (that one might be a yes, but I&#8217;m not sure.)</p>
<p>re:  legacies:</p>
<p>the upperclassmen advisor at my undergrad university once said &#8220;One dumb, rich guy can pay for three smart, poor guys.&#8221;  I don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s really how the economics work out, but it&#8217;s funny.</p>
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		<title>By: Margaret</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92443</link>
		<dc:creator>Margaret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92443</guid>
		<description>Eva, I assume that you are referring to the notion of parents who don&#039;t believe in educating girls.  I wouldn&#039;t be so quick to assume that those kinds of parents are uncommon in the U.S. and other industrialized countries.  

I don&#039;t have any hard numbers but consider that the ranks of Christian Reconstructionists (who don&#039;t even believe in daughters leaving the home until marriage) are growing.    Consider the questions being raised in our own op-ed pages as to whether girls should be going to places like Yale if they are just going to &quot;opt out&quot; of the professions in the long run.  Consider the many subtle biases that may be harbored by western parents regarding girls&#039; abilities in fields like math and science, or suitability for the professions.  Consider that the numbers of immigrants from other countries where girls&#039; education is more blatantly devalued and whose daughters might fluorish in the Ivy League if only encouraged and permitted to go for it.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eva, I assume that you are referring to the notion of parents who don&#8217;t believe in educating girls.  I wouldn&#8217;t be so quick to assume that those kinds of parents are uncommon in the U.S. and other industrialized countries.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have any hard numbers but consider that the ranks of Christian Reconstructionists (who don&#8217;t even believe in daughters leaving the home until marriage) are growing.    Consider the questions being raised in our own op-ed pages as to whether girls should be going to places like Yale if they are just going to &#8220;opt out&#8221; of the professions in the long run.  Consider the many subtle biases that may be harbored by western parents regarding girls&#8217; abilities in fields like math and science, or suitability for the professions.  Consider that the numbers of immigrants from other countries where girls&#8217; education is more blatantly devalued and whose daughters might fluorish in the Ivy League if only encouraged and permitted to go for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Eva</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92438</link>
		<dc:creator>Eva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 18:32:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92438</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;or because they lacked the kind of support system that would get them to college at all, let alone Harvard; or because they’re girls, and their parents don’t believe in educating girls&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I do not think that&#039;s too common in the developed world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>or because they lacked the kind of support system that would get them to college at all, let alone Harvard; or because they’re girls, and their parents don’t believe in educating girls</p></blockquote>
<p>I do not think that&#8217;s too common in the developed world.</p>
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		<title>By: Red Stapler</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92420</link>
		<dc:creator>Red Stapler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/03/10/4571/#comment-92420</guid>
		<description>1) There was an excellent article in Wired back in &#039;02 about the upswing in Autism and Asperger&#039;s in Silicon Valley because of nerds marrying nerds and spawning. It may not be as dire as Simon Baron-Cohen says, but it&#039;s definitely a noticible situation.

2) I have an essay bubbling about race and class relations, and how learning to play the game can have incredible effects on a person&#039;s success. There&#039;s an English play from the 1950s called &quot;Live Like Pigs&quot; that resonates eerily with a lot of problems we still have today. Race issues are important, but I think a lot of them can be addressed by answering financial issues first. Education is an incredible tool, and should be available to everyone. And if it&#039;s not, make extra sure that it IS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1) There was an excellent article in Wired back in &#8217;02 about the upswing in Autism and Asperger&#8217;s in Silicon Valley because of nerds marrying nerds and spawning. It may not be as dire as Simon Baron-Cohen says, but it&#8217;s definitely a noticible situation.</p>
<p>2) I have an essay bubbling about race and class relations, and how learning to play the game can have incredible effects on a person&#8217;s success. There&#8217;s an English play from the 1950s called &#8220;Live Like Pigs&#8221; that resonates eerily with a lot of problems we still have today. Race issues are important, but I think a lot of them can be addressed by answering financial issues first. Education is an incredible tool, and should be available to everyone. And if it&#8217;s not, make extra sure that it IS.</p>
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