Well played, anonymous 23 yr. old. Well played.

It’s not the clothes. It’s how you feel in them. I’m all for bringing sexy back, but my definition of sexy doesn’t mean I’ll screw you. Just means you display your body in an artful manner that is pleasing. When we can own up to this and be comfortable with it, I think a lot of issues on the super crazy conservative and super lax liberal sides can be solved.

Pleasing to whom? Who gets to judge? This is the heart of the matter. The boys in this survey think that they are the right people to judge what is pleasing to them in the clothes chosen by another, independent human, because she happens to be female. That’s sexist and wrong, and there’s no getting comfortable with that AFAIC.

And what’s wrong with a woman dressing in a manner that conveys she wants to fuck someone? What if she does want to fuck someone? The assumption generally entertained by our culture of male privilege is that, upon making the decision that a woman wants to have sex, she loses the right to choose with whom she might want to have sex. She is branded a slut (or a “harlot”) and made sexual property of all men, of the community of men, and that too is sexist and wrong.

It’s just not as simple as drawing some subjective line in the sand and saying that, for example, a skirt that is 2″ above the knee is modest enough and allows a woman to maintain her independence as a human, but a skirth that is 5″ above the knee makes her a whore and the property of all men to do with as they will. Either women are independent and allowed moral agency or they are not. It cannot be conditioned on the choices they make, and it most certainly cannot be conditioned on the choices that others would make for them, for in each case the conditioning denies the inherent personhood of women in the entirety.

Lastly, the term “modesty” sickens me as it is used to encourage women to be so. That this survey discusses clothing and personal modesty does nothing to hide the baseline agenda of shaming women and reducing the ability of women to be proud of themselves, in each case because women have committed the crime of being female. I need not be modest — not of my body, not of my mind, not of my outspoken personality, not of my accomplishments, not of my irrepressible spirit. Anyone who suggests that I, as a women, need to incorporate modesty into an aspect of my life is trying to reduce my capacity to achieve greater heights, and such a reductive person’s efforts should be rebuffed at every opportunity.

Charity, sympathy, self-control.

Oddly enough, the very Scriptures they tote are just like this. Kind of funny how men are suddenly unaccountable when they are unattached,and women need to be protected until they are.

Having married a good Christian boy while I was young and stupid, I learned that he wanted me to be the virgin and the whore; that is, I was supposed to save myself for him (which I did) but I was also supposed to be very sexually exploratory. While I am somewhat bothered by promiscuity, I don’t think it’s the clothing that’s the problem, it’s the casualness with sex period.

Not saying you should marry the first person you screw (bad idea kids unless you are very very lucky) but there’s got to be a happy medium. If society can only come up with prudes and sluts, there’s something off about our thought processes. I think to some extent we create men like this just as much as they create “harlots” and the like.

Being open about sex and sexuality isn’t always about actually doing everything you can. Only thing I can really agree with on this survey is this: modesty is about attitude. Doesn’t mean you have to look like a school marm or hang all out like Paris Hilton. I think it’s the confidence in yourself that makes you modest. Knowing that you are comfortable in your own skin.

It’s not the clothes. It’s how you feel in them. I’m all for bringing sexy back, but my definition of sexy doesn’t mean I’ll screw you. Just means you display your body in an artful manner that is pleasing. When we can own up to this and be comfortable with it, I think a lot of issues on the super crazy conservative and super lax liberal sides can be solved.

God, this sounds preachy. Forgive me. Just got me going on one of my favorite rant subjects.

Because treating men and women as equals in the eyes of God is, like, totally not the part of Christianity we dig!

That being said, the results are still damned creepy, and I fully agree that the putting forth of female modesty as anything like a positive thing is really a veiled effort at obtaining more male sexual/property entitlement and control over women’s bodies (whether it is veiled to a conscious or subconscious level is hard to say). Given that nuns and elderly women are raped, the harlotry and connection of it with “consequences,” especially rape, are false on their face and misogynist.

With respect to the issue that feminists will sometimes criticize women for what they wear and how it fits with a feminist outlook, I have been there too, Natalia. In my first job out of college, I worked for a woman who was a self-proclaimed feminist, but she was very first generation about it. She ran a regional office for a first-tier global investment bank and kicked a lot of ass, but her approach was that to succeed, women had to play the men’s games the way men played them. It had worked for her, so, in trying to help women succeed, she wanted all women who worked for her to fit within her narrow band. She set the double standard for expressions of femininity, and if you were more “girly” appearance-wise, like I happened to be, or even if you were more boisterous and willing to be contrary to one’s peers and betters, like I also happened to be, you were criticized, and it was for your own good, because her path was the only possible path to success, and deviating from it would damage not only your own success, but also the view people had of her success as this female business leader.

This all happened 14 years ago, and things have gotten better in a variety of respects. But there are still women who, while claiming to wave the banner of feminism, will be critical of women’s personal expressions to the extent they appear to be not-feminist-enough. It’s not a critique of feminism to recognize that this happens. It’s a critique of those particular feminists and their misguided efforts to think of themselves as the sole arbiters of what is an is not acceptable for other women or, especially, other feminists. It’s okay — it just means feminists, like every other type of human, can count among its number people who are also hypocrites and crackpots.

On a different note — you can totally wear pants to law firm interviews. Even the “white shoe” firms have given up caring about that. Fine if people wore skirts, but really not a problem. I don’t know why law school placement office people make a big deal about it, because lawyers really couldn’t give a shit.

Finally, if you read the responses to the question, “As a guy, what is your responsibility in this area? What is your role in guarding your eyes and mind (as opposed to the women’s role of dressing modestly)?” you will find that most of the respondents identify themselves as primarily responsible for their own lust.

“Primarily”? How about “solely”?

I wonder why you folks at Rebelution didn’t feel a survey about modesty for men was as important. Do you think women don’t have sexy thoughts when we see hot guys? When I see a good-looking guy, I can appreciate him, and then go on about my business. It doesn’t ruin my life or my marriage. It doesn’t devalue me or him as a person. It doesn’t need to be a big shitty struggle.

All due respect, Brett, but you do know it’s possible to be attracted to someone mentally AND physically, and that sexual feelings alone don’t turn people into pieces of meat? What a terrible attitude to carry into marriage. “I love and respect my wife so much I don’t think of her sexually”? How do you live a lifetime of “anything remotely sexual is bad and should be avoided” and then just flip a switch once the vows are taken?

Women make up 50% of the world’s population. And it’s not our job to police our clothing and attitude all so you men won’t get boners. I personally wear what I want, for my own personal pleasure. Don’t like it? Don’t look.

If all these fine young Christian men are so worried about women causing them to “stumble”, maybe they should stay home until they can master self-control. Really.

1) The survey questions were submitted by Christian teenage and college age women. The guys did not decide to scrutinize every little detail of female dress and design a survey about them. In fact, if guys had written the survey questions you can be sure it would have been much, much shorter. As it was, we cut the 148-question survey down from over 360 submitted questions. It should also be noted that we (and 99% of the guys) had no idea what gauchos, sheer sleeves, or empire waists were until this survey. The items and terms were appropriately photo-illustrated or defined throughout the survey to avoid confusion.

2) TheRebelution.com merely facilitated this conversation. We had no control over the results. We tell young ladies that the results are accurate of what the respondents think, but are not necessarily true of what God desires for men and women in their interaction with one another. It is a resource—a glimpse into the minds of a group of 1,600 men—not a list of rules.

3) I believe you could benefit from looking for the good in the survey, rather than just looking for the bad. It’s unreasonable to expect every single one of 1,600 men (many young teens) to have an accurate view on this issue. There are many inaccuracies (on both extremes), but there are also many balanced and reasonable answers. If you view it as a resource (not a dress code) you have the freedom to keep the good and disregard the bad.

4) If you read our two-part series, The Responsibility of Modesty, you will understand the view Alex and I actually promote. I still don’t expect that we will agree on everything (or anything), but I want to be honest about where we really stand. Combating harsh male dominance and promoting equality between the sexes are goals we share.

5) Finally, if you read the responses to the question, “As a guy, what is your responsibility in this area? What is your role in guarding your eyes and mind (as opposed to the women’s role of dressing modestly)?” you will find that most of the respondents identify themselves as primarily responsible for their own lust.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. Our only desire is to improve in representing accurately the truth of God. Our goal will never be to please feminists, but we welcome constructive criticism wherever we find it.

In closing, Alex and I don’t believe that Christianity has ever perfectly modeled God’s beautiful plan for men and women. I hope that you can think of Alex and I as young men who are trying to love and respect women the way Jesus demands and who aren’t satisfied with the status quo. If nothing else, we are all devoted to change and have a common enemy in those who want to keep things the way they are.