I guess the real question I’m trying to get at is this: If I’m not, as a rule, attracted to men, and don’t particularly care if they’re attracted to me, why is it so important to me that men clearly read me as female?

Wow, that strikes a chord. Though for me, it’s a more general statement. If I”m not interested in a sexual relationship with a person (and that’s a true statement for the vast majority of people I encounter), why do I care if they read me as female? I’m not entirely sure; part of it is that I find my facial features on the harsh side of attractive, but part of it is definitely the fact that I’m androgynous enough that I could easily be taken for a boy (not so much an adult, but definitely a teenage boy). And that’s bugged me for a long, long time.

I guess the real question I’m trying to get at is this: If I’m not, as a rule, attracted to men, and don’t particularly care if they’re attracted to me, why is it so important to me that men clearly read me as female?

I dunno—living your whole life immersed in a culture that casts male attention and approval as being more important and meaningful, perhaps?

But that makes it unique “social space” of a sort, not just a “bathroom”–which possibly accounts for the increased policing. Just a guess.

I think that’s probably it. Think of how many women’s restrooms (especially in nice department stores like Nordstrom) are fitted out with a lounge area with couches and chairs. I doubt there’s anything like that in most men’s restrooms, even the fanciest ones.

I think I’ve only been mistaken for a man when I had short hair, and that was only from the back (I got nice wide shoulders to go along with my large breasts). At the time, the man who did it was very embarrassed, as was I. I didn’t think I looked that unfeminine at the time though, when I look at pictures from that period, I really did look like a 12-year-old boy from the shoulders up.

But since such a huge chunk of our social interactions (particularly those where people of more than one gender are involved) are sexualized, or at the very least colored by the sexual identities at play, how is, say, an interaction between two lesbians different from one between a lesbian and a man? Or a straight woman and a lesbian?

I guess the real question I’m trying to get at is this: If I’m not, as a rule, attracted to men, and don’t particularly care if they’re attracted to me, why is it so important to me that men clearly read me as female?

That I said I wasn’t sure exactly why didn’t mean I didn’t have maybe an idea. I was leaning toward your explanation about the gendering of public space, but (1) I wasn’t sure what to make of the degree to which fear of assault was also a reason (hence I wasn’t sure) and (2) I couldn’t quite figure out precisely what was going on with your preferred explanation, which is mine too.

Thank you for explaning what I had somewhat intuited but couldn’t even put my finger on precisely enough to express it.

The less space you have that is “yours,” the more fiercely you defend it (see also all those tedious arguments about mean mean women who won’t “let” their husbands “help out” in the kitchen.) The fact that public space is so strongly gendered as male that women are reduced to defending the places where they pee, for god’s sake, as sacred, is terribly sad, but one thing it is not is hard to understand.

I’ve long noticed: Women go to restrooms TOGETHER and exit TOGETHER. They talk about all kinds of stuff in there, and since that is a “personal” space, they talk about personal stuff. My wife has overheard lots of pregnancy and sexual discussions in bathrooms. Women go to public bathrooms to cry, diaper babies (often while talking about the babies to other mothers), to “compose” themselves during unpleasant evenings out, etc. By contrast, I can’t even remember the last time I heard a man say anything in a bathroom.

But that makes it unique “social space” of a sort, not just a “bathroom”–which possibly accounts for the increased policing. Just a guess.

I’ve seen people I thought might be women in men’s bathrooms, but it certainly wouldn’t occur to me to SAY anything.

men are less territorial about gender-segregated spaces like bathrooms … I’m not sure exactly why …

What, seriously?

The less space you have that is “yours,” the more fiercely you defend it (see also all those tedious arguments about mean mean women who won’t “let” their husbands “help out” in the kitchen.) The fact that public space is so strongly gendered as male that women are reduced to defending the places where they pee, for god’s sake, as sacred, is terribly sad, but one thing it is not is hard to understand.

(Many women will, if questioned, mention a fear of assault (which is a real fear, of course, and one we are encouraged — even ordered — at every turn to maintain) but it is easy enough to counter this argument: as things stand now, nothing at all actually prevents a man from going into the ladies’ room. If a guy wants to assault you, he knows where to go. And if we had mixed-gender bathrooms, he couldn’t count on finding only women there anymore.)

Based on one particular experience (*) — and of course the plural of anecdote is not data — men are less territorial about gender-segregated spaces like bathrooms … I’m not sure exactly why …

* in my undergrad residence hall, they had to remodel the bathrooms. when they remodeled the women’s room, the women just went into the men’s room whenever they needed to use the bathroom/shower and everything was hunky-dory. But when it came time to remodel the men’s room, the women weren’t so pleased with the reverse — that men could go into their bathroom at any given time.

I could be misreading what you are saying here, but what is the significance of wishing for attention from a sex to which you are not attractive. I have a friend who is a somewhat butch lesbian but nothing seems to flatter her more than attention from males (and she is butch in a way that a certain kind of hetero male, e.g. yours truly, finds super-duper hot). Similarly, in my case, I tend to like it when anybody, whether a man or a woman is flirtatious with me, even if I simply am not turned on by men. There is a certain desire to be found attractive that is independent of one’s own sexual orientation but is (of course) dependent on the sexual orientation of others.

To the extend that some people have a desire to be found attractive by anyone who is interested in their gender, how does this interact with homophobia? If a man has a need for anyone who’s attracted to men to be attracted to him (an ego thing?) what happens when he encounters a gay guy who simply is not attracted to him? Does he displace this feeling of rejection onto a hatred of those like he who rejected him? And what happens when he encounters a gay guy who fulfills this need? Does he begin to question his own sexuality for having a need that is actually relatively independent of sexual orientation? Is this the mechanism of “I don’t mind gay people as long as they don’t go for me or rub it in my face”?