ST. LOUIS (BP)–Oral arguments began April 11 before the 8th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in St. Louis, which must decide whether an injunction imposed by a federal judge on a law enacted by the South Dakota legislature in 2005 was appropriate. The law would have required doctors to tell women verbally and in writing that that childbirth could cause depression and suicide, and ends a woman’s constitutionally protected relationship with her unborn child.
Kidding! While those things might be true — post-partum depression is a medically recognized condition, unlike so-called “post-abortion syndrome” — it sounds pretty strange to require doctors to inform pregnant women that they may want to kill themselves if they give birth. And yet that’s exactly what several states do to pregnant women seeking abortion — despite the fact that abortion is physically safer than carrying a child to term, and depression is more linked to childbirth/childrearing than to abortion.
That isn’t to say that I think pregnant women should be warned out of childbirth — of course not. But pregnant women should not be given misleading and patently false information just because they choose a particular medical procedure.
And there certainly should be a greater awareness of the phsyical risk of pregnancy than there is now…
Back when I lived in the Midwest, the usual suspects in my home state tried to pass a scare-them-out-of-abortion bill. Democrats managed to amend the bill to require pregnant women to also be informed of the risks of childbirth.
The bill was quietly killed. Huh.
“…ends a woman’s constitutionally protected relationship with her unborn child.”
What could they mean by this? The only constitutionally protected relationship I can think of runs out around the point of viability.
Yep, whenever I get those crazy forwards about the dangers of birth control (from my well-intentioned mother) I send back the data on maternal mortality – much more dangerous all around.
.
There’s more info at the CDC.
When I was briefly pregnant (before miscarrying), I was warned at my prenatal appointment that eating soft cheeses and deli meats were VERY hazardous to my health and that of the fetus. I believe I cocked a skeptical eyebrow.
Upon returning home, I consulted Dr. Google who politely informed me that I was more likely to die in childbirth or in a car wreck than by brie.
They do warn pregnant women about things, but they’re the wrong things.
Consitutionally protected relationship with her unborn child?
Maybe it’s ’cause I’m going into theology rather than con law, but that seems a little silly to me. I’m open to correction though.
Totally off topic to this post, but, I read your update on the Duke post, Jill, and I’m just rendered speechless by the continued bullshit from the children on AutoAdmit. I’m so sorry it happened to you (again). :(
Hey akeeyu, I’ve never been pregnant so I yield to your experience, but I just have one thing to add:
I was exposed to listeria and it was really scary! (Which for anyone who doesn’t know is why they tell pregnant women to avoid cheeses and deli meats, b/c your immune system is compromised.)
Maybe not phrased quite that way, but it would be nice for issues such as post partum depression and post abortion depression to be recognized.
Whenever people talk about abortion, I think about a girl I used to work with. Swore up and down she was pro-life until she got pregnant off a one night stand. Surprise, surprise, abortion was okay in her case because it wasn’t from someone she loved.
Hypocracy from pro-life groups never suprises me.
This is a slight derailment, but one thing that always drives me up a wall is that as infrequently as postpartum depression is mentioned, depression during pregnancy is mentioned even less. The few times it is mentioned, people act like it’s some sort of new, shocking finding.
The reality is that most research suggests that 10% to 20% of women who become pregnant will experience depression during the pregnancy. It is at least as common– probably more common– than postpartum depression.
Erg, in regards to my above post, this is in no way a criticism of Jill’s post, which is spot on, but rather of the fact that our society apparently doesn’t give two craps about pregnant women.
Heterocentric much?
Who or what are you referring to?
Additionally, you straight feminists crack me up. You fall in love with, and have sex with, the people guilty of the very behaviors you speak out against. How do you explain this? Please don’t give me a “I’m biologically heterosexual argument,” we’ve all learned about compulsory heterosexuality and that sexuality is probably mostly just a matter of conditioning. Yet you go along mindlessly. Sad.
I can’t speak for all feminists, but I speak out against a system of oppression, not against every single man. And lots of people, including lots of women, are guilty of the behaviors I speak out against. I suppose the only solution, then, would be to hate everyone and never have sex, right?
What’s the problem with warning pregnant women about childbirth? I think we should get to a situation where when a doctor diagnoses pregnancy they automatically warn about the risks of childbirth and routinely offer an abortion. It should be treated like any other medical condition. There are cultural reasons this doesn’t happen at the moment – people don’t want to upset pro-life types. But it’d be a big step forward for reproductive rights if instead of having to go out of their way to ask about one women were automatically offers an abortion when a doctor first makes the diagnosis.
Yes, all straight feminists fall in love with and have sex with horrible, pro-life, fundamentalist misogynists. It’s all clear to me now.
You know that in this system men generally oppress women, correct? Yet you choose to exclusively date, have sex with, and fall in love with them. Good job.
When I say “heterocentric much” I’m pointing out that the feminist debate always tends to be about topics concerning straight women. Most of you never even bother to challenge compulsory heterosexuality or even think to question why you mindlessly exclusively like guys.
Jill, did you start dating Eric Keroack again?! You wench! He was totally mine!
Moreover, you always talk about abortion/birth control, yet you never bother to challenge vaginal intercourse as the predominant sexual activity in our culture. Did you ever stop to think that maybe we should be arguing against that? Vaginal intercourse is relatively risky and unsatisfying (for the woman) compared to other sexual activities.
I really get frustrated with you so called straight feminists. I feel like you’ve failed, yet you seem to have control over the feminist debate in this country.
I appreciate how you assume that we’re all heterosexual here. No jumping to conclusions or anything like that.
Bwahahahaha!
Oh…you were serious.
Not all men are misogynists. I mean, duh. That seems like kind of a no-brainer.
I’m sure the anecdote of how women you know keep going for guys who treat them mean whilst tewtally ignoring a nice guy like you is coming any minute now…
Uh, evil fizz, how can I assume otherwise when this topic is about abortion and birth control? Even if you’re not all straight, it’s still a heterocentric topic, like I originally said. My problem with this is that it seems feminist debate is ALWAYS about heterosexual women’s problems. You’ve completely failed to challenge heterosexuality or the predominance of vaginal intercourse, which is a relatively risky and unsatisfying sexual activity for women.
I meant to say compulsory heterosexuality and heterocentrism instead of heterosexuality in that last post.
Okay, now I feel stupid because I assumed MN was a man. 40 lashes with a wet noodle.
Because, you know, vaginal intercourse is the only kind of intercourse straight women have with men…
Did an actual strawfeminist show up?
Vanessa, I’m not a guy. Is that not obvious? You have to admit, it is weird that you so called straight feminists challenge sexism, yet wholly fail to ever question heterosexual conditioning and its effects on you.
I happen to like vaginal intercourse, MN (it’s better than a guy trying to figure out cunnilingus). Do I have to turn in my feminist card now? Whatever.
Vanessa, the question is not whether or not it’s the ONLY type. It’s that vaginal intercourse really isn’t worth it when you have to deal with birth control and its side effects, abortions, stds, all for a sexual activity that doesn’t even bring most women to orgasm.
Yeah, MN I’m sorry. It’s just that with all of the MRAs and other assholes around recently I jumped to conclusions. Also I stepped away from the computer before publishing, and missed your other comments.
Sorry.
But still, your argument is silly. I don’t understand how a feminist blog can’t be expected to discuss abortion, since all women can be raped, all women can become pregnant.
I’m very disappointed with the so called straight feminists on this board. I’m raise a serious issue here, the problem of heterocentrism in the feminist debate, and some of you are responding with sarcastic remarks. Does that remind you at all of the way sexist men respond to feminist concerns? Do you like it when they do that? You think those kinds of conversations ever go anywhere?
Vanessa, most abortions aren’t performed following a rape. Also, you would probably just get emergency contraception in that situation. You really have to admit that abortion is mostly a straight woman’s issue.
Additionally, abortion particularly accomodates the vaginal intercourse as the predominant sexual activity. I think we should stop having this type of intercourse altogether.
“It’s that vaginal intercourse really isn’t worth it when you have to deal with birth control and its side effects, abortions, stds, all for a sexual activity that doesn’t even bring most women to orgasm.”
Thank you for your opinion.
In any setting in which what you’re saying has credence, I would like to add that lesbian sex is not worth it because of the risk of social stigma.
“raise a serious issue here, the problem of heterocentrism in the feminist debate”
You could try
A) raising it in an appropriate place
B) raising it in an appropriate manner
Failing that, you’re just being a troll. Although, admittedly, an entertaining one.
well, jeez, let’s all just arrange our sex lives to be exclusively a protest against the heteronormative! i think that’d be more orgasm-killing than, you know, engaging in vaginal intercourse if you enjoy vaginal intercourse.
I’d disagree with that, but so? So it should never be mentioned ever? There are *two* posts about abortion on the front page right now, it’s hardly the main topic of the blog or anything.
But you seem to be doing the same annoying thing most radfems (not saying that you are one, just that they do this a lot) do. Assuming that *your* experience is the exact same as every other womans, and if they don’t agree with you they’ve fallen under the spell of society.
For instance:
Vaginal intercourse isn’t worth it *to you.* That’s fine. I don’t really have a problem with it. That’s fine too,
Don’t you see that if you substituted “vaginal” with “anal” and “women” to “men” you’d sound like one of the homophobic American Taliban types?
Posting calm, on topic, pointed comments on a feminist blog is not an appropriate way to raise this issue? I’m being a troll for engaging in this debate? I’ve never even been on this board before, and I’ve been commenting on here for about ten minutes. What you meant to say was “I don’t like what you’re saying, but I have no way of attacking your actual message, so I’ll attack you instead.”
But don’t worry, I’ll just leave. Most of you sound pretty unintelligent and immature, which probably explains why were duped by compulsory heterosexuality in the first place. Enjoy birth control, stds, spousal abuse, and monthly pregnancy scares.
You wrote:
Mandolin Says:
April 14th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
“raise a serious issue here, the problem of heterocentrism in the feminist debate”
You could try
A) raising it in an appropriate place
B) raising it in an appropriate manner
Failing that, you’re just being a troll. Although, admittedly, an entertaining one
But beyond that, I apologize for participating in the threadjack.
Anyway, I also don’t see the problem with warning women about the dangers of childbirth, particularly post-partum depression. PPD is like the big elephant in the room, especially dealing with a situation that’s supposed to be as rosy as having a newborn around. I blogged (well, ranted) about it not too long ago.
having tossed that off a bit heatedly:
mn, why are you so invested in tying feminism to gender? in my experience, it’s not a gendered thing. hell, sometimes even identified gender isn’t a “gendered” thing — at least, not tied to the sex organs that one happens to be born with, or what one does with those sex organs. would getting off with, say, phyllis schlafly be a more appropriate feminist sexual activity than vaginal intercourse with a dude who believes in gender equality?
to me, exploring a post-gendered equality is a more fruitful path. why chase away those who want to help in the fight, even if they happen to have penises? why assume that just because someone has ovaries, they’re on your side? why turn sex and love into political acts when you don’t have to? judge people by their actions, not by their bodies.
What sort of lesbian doesn’t do vaginal intercourse?
Hate the spermies, not the love tunnel :(
Oh come on, MN has got to be performance art.
And if she isn’t, God help us
I don’t see abortion as a heterosexual feminist issue, it is a health care issue. All women can get pregnant. A lesbian who initially decides to conceive can change her mind and have an abortion if she doesn’t feel it would be the best thing for her to continue the pregnancy, for whatever reason. It probably doesn’t happen that often, but it doesn’t mean that women that define themselves as lesbians have nothing, or should have nothing, invested in the matter of reproductive choice.
My question for MN is this: at church I know a young lesbian couple expecting their first child. They are lesbian and eschew heterosexual vaginal intercourse, but they, Lisa, is now pregnant. So does that mean, in your paradigm that they are simplying fulfilling compulsory pregnancy to produce a “worker” for the man-machine or are they, through sperm donation (adoption is really difficult to do for same sex couples in Tennessee) expanding their family for their own purposes? So, the issue above, the idea about warning pregnant women about the risks involved in terms of childbirth and pregnancy is relevant to them. I do not deny that “straight” feminists ought to consider the experiences and insights of GBLTQ feminists–and there are many forums on this very site for this. This particular post has to do with pregnancy, which may or may not result from heterosexual vaginal intercourse. I don’t consider you a troll and I don’t take your concerns for granted. I want you to know that you are heard and supported, but I hope that you understand that it is not the content of your posts, the desire to de-centralize feminist dialogue from exclusively heterosexual norming, that I object to, but the context in which you make this stand. Talking about pregnancy and heterosexual sex acts cannot be ignored and should not be ignored by feminists. This post is entirely valid and should be explored. Trying to limit feminist discourse is not the answer–we should expand.
Peace
Well, she sure does do a great Nice Guy(tm) impression.
She’s allegedly gone now, but sheesh, MN: entitlement much?
MN is entitled to derail any old thread, because her cause is so pure?
It’s rude when anybody does it, not just the antifeminists.
I’m with Raincitygirl and Echolalia. I’m not so sure that MN isn’t a NiceGuy(tm) or worse, trying to bait the ladeeez into saying something s/he can make fun of elsewhere.
And you know that there are categories other than heterosexual and homosexual, right?
evil fizz – That might be the funniest troll response ever.
(reponse #19, that is)
great post!
Yeah, because telling people to stop having a type of sex that they and their partners enjoy is WAY less oppressive. And the exact reason people want to outlaw abortion is because it makes it possible to have penetrative vaginal sex without having to fear for your life, health, and future. Sounds too similar for me.
It does suck that “sex” in our culture always means “heterosexual vaginal intercourse.” I don’t even know what to answer when nosy people ask me if I’ve had sex. “Which do you mean?” just makes them think you’re a freak or ask you details about what you have or haven’t done. In my opinion, sex should be broadened to mean any kind of intimate sexual activity. (But then kissing would be sex, which just seems very odd to me.)
Nah. More like “hate the fact that you can’t biologically,naturally control the result of spermie-love tunnel interaction.” The gonads of both sexes really should have come with on/off switches.
That argument can go both ways, you know. (ie: “You were just conditioned to be homosexual, MN, it’s not biological. Stop going along mindlessly with the gay agenda and cure yourself already!” Sound familiar?)
(And yes, response #19 was pretty funny. )
Dang. I hate when I miss the good trolls. I mean, seriously, this is classic comedy:
Heh.
The first time I heard the phrase “politically correct”, it was in the context of whether women who enjoyed vaginal penetration were entitled to call themselves lesbians. (because, y’know, vaginal penetration/ dildos equate to submission to patriarchial rape culture etc.) .
So a few years later, when I started seeing chubby old white christian republican talking heads blathering on about “political correctness” or proclaiming their pride in being ‘politically incorrect’, I couldn’t help but snicker…
MN was hilarious. And no blog to check out? I’m bummed.
Also, The phrase “so called straight feminists” has never been uttered more times in a single page of text. Amazing.
I’m impressed. The fake radical-feminist trolls are usually less literate.
I wish there was some way to get the word out to more women (and men, I should add) about how pregnancy can affect people – both of them. I mean, there are books out there, but they all seem so chirpy and never seem to really talk about what it’s like to be pregnant.
And this isn’t even going into the lack of books to support “So you decided to place a child for adoption” and how that its own set of issues.
There should be a damned awareness campaign for this, so women stop feeling so damned alone. So men stop feeling so confused and helpless.
Word, Anna. I know a few women, feminist and super-awesome, that have had kids recently and hearing them talk about the process and debunking all the ’9 months of glowing sereneness’ stuff was simultaneously sobering and hilarious.
The women in my family have always been rather practical about the whole pregnancy. It is a health care issue and not a moral code issue. It always starts with – If you are going to do this then… and ends with excruciating details about hemorrhoids, constipation and water retention. The problem is that we need to have these discussions with women before they are sexually active and not after. The mass media is no place for a woman to learn about her body, it is much more embarrassing and funny to have it done in a room full of aunts, great-aunts and grandparents.
Wow.
The vast majority of women who get pregnant, and an even larger proporation to choose abortion are heterosexual (or perhaps bisexual, but it’s through heterosexual behavior, anyway). Still, that doesn’t make abortion a straight women’s issue. If I am ever faced with a (planned) pregnancy that I need to terminate either for my own health or for severe fetal abnormalities that would preclude a meaningful life for a child, I’ll be damn glad that all of those straight women fought for my right to do so. Not to mention that how many of straight sisters support GLBT rights, and they seem to be the same ones who are pro-choice. I’ll be right there in the battle with them as they are with me.
Perhaps the feminist writers here could put together information on adoption and the lot?
What’s to stop us? There IS a need for pregnancy books that aren’t vaguely targeted at 30something middle-class white women who planned it or at least welcomed it.
There was no book for my mom when she got pregnant with me.
“I already had your brothers, and they were both so little, I didn’t want another baby, literally I’d have three babies at once… Ugh. They didn’t tell me that you have to get your diaphragm refitted when you loose weight! I thought I might be pregnant so I said to your father ‘They better have a gun at the bottom of that pregnancy test box in case it’s positive!’”
Meanwhile, I am sitting there not knowing what to say.
Books they need to make:
“So you’ve got an infant in one arm, a toddler in the other, and you’re pregnant again? How to choose the spacing of your children, and what to do if it doesn’t go according to plan.”
Okay, now I’m ranting.
http://breadnroses.ca/birthpangs/
(written by some friends of mine)
One Jewish Dyke — I agree with you but think that there are even more ties between abortion rights and GLBT rights, as they both center on personal autonomy and the right to control our own bodies. Most anti-abortion laws are aimed at punishing women for having sex, perpetuating 1950s gender roles, and rejecting the idea that women can make choices for themselves.
The same anti-sex, gendered agenda is the same one that drives anti-GLBT rights. So there’s much overlap in both movements.
It’s so ridiculous of that troll to think abortion is only a hetero issue. Laws that take away the rights of citizens to control their own bodies affects us all.
Shorter version: Go kill yourself, bitch.
These people aren’t even trying anymore to pretend that their agenda consists of anything other than sheer, naked hostility to women.
*scratches head* Wait a minute, so gay men and women DON’T deal with STDs and partner abuse? Oooh, me so stupid! All that penis must have jabbed my brain!
Actually, I do enjoy my birth control — it’s reduced my cramps down to a bearable level so I don’t have to spend 2 days writhing in agony.
But, hey, I’m sure no lesbian anywhere in the history of the Pill has had any kind of problems with, say, uterine fibroids or PCOS or other conditions that would be helped by taking BCPs. Those are straight woman diseases, right?
Snerk. Now I have to clean the coffee off my screen!
I know MN was a troll, but those posts made me angry. I don’t know about you, but my feminism is not so selfish. Feminism is not just for the privileged amongst us, it is about securing rights and safety for all women, including those who are not in a position to make our choices and join our fight.
It’s great that you’re in a position to choose political lesbianism, but please recognise that you are in the minority, not only for the path you have chosen but for being able to choose it in the first place.
I still think childbirth is terrifying. My sister’s preggers, and I worry about her all the time. It’s a major medical event.
Wow, I’ve never seen a fake radfem troll before. That was teh funnee!
Sayna,
Would you settle for “Any activity in which the intended outcome for at least one participant is orgasm.”? I’ve found it a very helpful working definition (and one for which I cannot, alas, take credit.)
I would love to put together such a book. I can’t write it, never having been pregnant (and also being white and 30something; although I do get really annoyed at pregnancy and child-rearing books that presume a two-parent household). But I can edit and do publishing stuff.
I’ve just had enough of this glorified mama stuff. It’s good that pregnant women aren’t hidden away anymore, but pop culture has taken a taboo and made it a fetish instead. *d’oh*
There are a few good resources out there for pregnant teeangers who want to keep their babies, but very little about under 18 abortion.
I live in Massachusetts, where the age of consent is 16. If I can have sex at 16, not to mention drive and have a job, it’s a little silly to hold a medical procedure over my head without my parent’s consent.
I’m ranting again.
As my ex-boyfriend said once, “The more I learn about the world, the less I want to be a part of it”. I get that feeling a lot out of frustration. Sigh.
What’s a young 3rd-waver to do?
PS — I’m 18 now, so now I’m politically active AND pissed off.
Here here, fellow Masshole! Apparently at that age you’re old enough to have sex, yet not old enough to take care of your overall sexual health.
So, MN, we’ll just tell pregnant rape survivors that they shouldn’t have “let” their rapists have vaginal sex with them.
Honestly. Do you live in the real fucking world?
Post partum depression is scary stuff too. I had a wicked case following my first born’s birth and that was with a proactive doctor who took one look at my family history and started me on anti-depressants 2 months before my due date. I shudder to think what it could have looked like. I do think women should be advised of everything that goes along with pregnancy and childbirth, it’s just good medical practice.
Why do we have to include every single woman/person, every single time? I am female, and heterosexual, and white, and middle class, and educated. Should I be forbidden from talking about any of those things, or talking to other women who share those characteristics, because that would exclude women without those characteristics?
It reminds me of a bit in Naomi Wolf’s ‘Fire with Fire’, where she has to defend herself against radicals who first complain that her books have footnotes, which is overly scholarly and academic, and excludes the non-academic. It eventually gets to ‘you shouldn’t write books, because that excludes women who are illiterate’.
MN is like some sort of stereotype of the angry, man-hating, lesbian feminist that I thought only existed in the minds of the conservative wingnuts.