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86 Responses

  1. Ana Casian Lakos
    Ana Casian Lakos April 25, 2007 at 12:31 am |

    Next thing you know they’ll be blaming women for rape.
    Oh wait…

  2. annaham
    annaham April 25, 2007 at 12:57 am |

    Wow, she’s got an absolutely stunning lack of empathy and a brain stem.

    I honestly didn’t think she could sink any lower, but…

  3. prairielily
    prairielily April 25, 2007 at 1:01 am |

    I will be sure to tell my boyfriend that because he was left out of hook-up culture and graduated a virgin, he is vulnerable to becoming a crazed mass murderer.

    What a disgusting and pathetic excuse for a human being.

  4. MattC
    MattC April 25, 2007 at 1:07 am |

    Jesus, Camile Paglia? Really? Of the names of the 90s I wish I would never here again, I think only “Wilson Phillips” ranks higher.

  5. mustelid
    mustelid April 25, 2007 at 6:39 am |

    Fucking lovely. While we’re blaming women, can we blame Paglia for glorifying rape and killing sprees?

  6. Chicklet
    Chicklet April 25, 2007 at 7:17 am |

    The late, great Molly Ivins said it best about Paglia:

    Sheesh, what an asshole.

  7. Mostly Normal
    Mostly Normal April 25, 2007 at 7:33 am |

    Since when did sex become known as “servicing?” As in, “11 year old girls servicing boys”? Is this some sort of social duty I was not aware women needed to perform, starting before puberty?

    Prarielily, I will also inform my amazing boyfriend– who was a virgin through most of college (blame me for “servicing” him near graduation)– that his seeming functionality in society is just a facade.

  8. micheyd
    micheyd April 25, 2007 at 7:34 am |

    Of all the fucked up things happening recently, this comment somehow sets me off :(

    I love how she manages to blame women for being too slutty because it degrades them, but they clearly NEED to go and fuck random strangers just in case they decide to go kill people.

    If argumentation obeyed the laws of physics, she would self-annihilate.

  9. Rachel
    Rachel April 25, 2007 at 7:55 am |

    Ya know, it’s not up to me to keep people from going crazy. If you can’t control yourself, there’s no WAY I’ll sleep with you.
    dangerous= sexy only works in fiction

  10. Elley
    Elley April 25, 2007 at 8:18 am |

    Any 11 year old “servicing” boys is going to start demanding reciprocal action by at least college, and he’d probably be too busy calling them sluts to do that, so that wouldn’t work out very well. Kinda like the girl his roommate said he tried to date but she had “promiscuity” in her eyes. But that’s totally her fault. She shouldn’t be dating random college boys otherwise she’s too much of a slut to date this random college boy. That totally makes sense.

  11. norbizness
    norbizness April 25, 2007 at 8:32 am |

    MattC: Hold on for one more day, they’re due for a comeback.

    She wouldn’t be so visible if Salon hadn’t thought that publishing the dreck of a washed-up academic qualified as ‘edgy’

  12. Frumious B
    Frumious B April 25, 2007 at 8:54 am |

    I like this Salon article. She questions the Times article and many of the other pundits. She fails to notice that the liberal west is just as much as of a patriarchy as Korea, but she does at least notice that patriarchy creates “angry male losers.”

  13. nausicaa
    nausicaa April 25, 2007 at 8:58 am |

    I’m confused. Was the massacre caused by girls putting out? Or was it caused by girls who don’t put out enough?

  14. The Happy Feminist
    The Happy Feminist April 25, 2007 at 9:08 am |

    I think the argument is that if girls are going to put out, they’d better make sure that everyone, including the Chos of the world, get their fair share.

  15. The Happy Feminist
    The Happy Feminist April 25, 2007 at 9:17 am |

    Because of course they shouldn’t be acting as though their bodies are actually their own.

  16. Bruce
    Bruce April 25, 2007 at 9:18 am |

    Paglia is a troll who should not be fed.

  17. Michelle
    Michelle April 25, 2007 at 9:30 am |

    I think the argument goes (in general) that if a woman is deciding for herself what to do, then it’s wrong.

  18. FemNYC
    FemNYC April 25, 2007 at 9:45 am |

    Other than blaming women for the massacre, this article has understones blaming others too! The multiple references to Islamic fundamentals, and towards the end the reference to “gangsta rap” subtly points towards African-Americans. Well I guess if anything goes wrong in this world, it seems like the only possible culprits are women, muslims and blacks. This article is unbelievably disgusting.

  19. Red Stapler
    Red Stapler April 25, 2007 at 10:10 am |

    You hear that, ladies?

    Donate your vagina today to ward off psychotic shooting sprees!

    Now that’s what I call “doing for society!”

  20. Mnemosyne
    Mnemosyne April 25, 2007 at 10:10 am |

    I will be sure to tell my boyfriend that because he was left out of hook-up culture and graduated a virgin, he is vulnerable to becoming a crazed mass murderer.

    I guess I’d better keep a close eye on my husband — he got to almost 30 before I de-virginized him. That must mean that the backup of sperm to the brain will make him snap and kill 30 people aaannnnnyyyy day now.

  21. ekf
    ekf April 25, 2007 at 10:21 am |

    I’m surprised Paglia didn’t write admiringly of Cho for finally exhibiting some traditional masculinity by embracing Thanatos where he could not embrace Eros, faulting him only for shooting actual people instead of doing something she might do, like find transcendance through disco music, or empower himself by dropping the names of famous people or writing defenses of misogyny. Her need to pump up her ego through self-aggrandizing, faux-shock nonsense appears to be insatiable.

  22. nausicaa
    nausicaa April 25, 2007 at 10:22 am |

    EKF – I love you.

  23. W. Kiernan
    W. Kiernan April 25, 2007 at 10:37 am |

    The imaginary pervasive hook-up culture at college, that only exists in the imagination of bullshit artists like Camille Paglia, where, in the inane masturbation fantasies of sex columnists and correspondents to Penthouse Letters, girls are prepared to sleep with boys they barely know or fancy, can be a source of seething resentment and alienation for those who are stupid enough to fall for the sex columnists’s bullshit, and therefore feel left out.

    Fixed those typos for ya, Sarah Baxter! You’re welcome.

  24. Kyra
    Kyra April 25, 2007 at 10:41 am |

    I love how she manages to blame women for being too slutty because it degrades them, but they clearly NEED to go and fuck random strangers just in case they decide to go kill people.

    Oh, haven’t you heard? It’s women’s duty to degrade themselves when more important things come up—to “take one for the team” and toss away one’s all-important purity and virginity and wholesomeness to be the fuck-toy and punching bag of some guy they don’t like, because otherwise he might become a psycho and start shooting at nice white college boys and ruin their lives. Which are so important that it’s entirely justifiable to protect them from an exceedingly minor threat by rendering countless women worthless whores. And there’s a bonus too! Every woman who thus pity-fucks a potential psycho automatically becomes a slut, and thus available for the taking to every other guy around! Ain’t patriarchy grand?

    Huh? The women? Oh, they get to dance and strip for cash and wear miniskirts and flash the cameras for Girls Gone Wild! It’s empowering, doncha know? It’s really doing them a favor. Most of them probably wouldn’t’a made it as virtuous women anyway, the whores. And you know, if they were gonna be whores anyway, well, really, they’re women—you can’t just have them going off and selfishly being whorish without any responsibility. They need to earn their keep, you see, and keeping potential psychos from being psycho is the perfect job for them, ’cause if they fail, he just kills them, and they’re worthless sluts so it really doesn’t matter.

    /sarcasm

    I need to scrub out my brain with a Brillo pad now.

  25. SunlessNick
    SunlessNick April 25, 2007 at 10:57 am |

    I guess I’d better keep a close eye on my husband — he got to almost 30 before I de-virginized him. - Mnemosyne

    Hey I’m 35 and still a virgin. Ticking time bomb, me.

    I think the argument is that if girls are going to put out, they’d better make sure that everyone, including the Chos of the world, get their fair share. - The Happy Feminist

    That was my read too. Sicksicksicksicksick.

  26. Miss Robyn
    Miss Robyn April 25, 2007 at 11:10 am |

    I think one of my favorite parts is about how the women he stalked were so stupid that they didn’t realize his special “love message” was from Romeo and Juliet (which, if you ask me, makes it even creepier).

    I think I’ve figured it out though- the moral of this story is “you’re not supposed to chew gum in class unless you’ve brought enough for everyone!”

    oh, also- ranted about this a bit yesterday: http://notesfromtheunderwhelmed.blogspot.com/2007/04/were-sluts-and-feminists-responsible.html

  27. twf
    twf April 25, 2007 at 11:24 am |

    There is at least a hookup subculture in college… I know because I was willingly a part of it. Yeah, I was interested in fucking people, and looked for people who were interested in fucking me, and we found each other, and it was all good. It may be less common than Paglia thinks it is, but it certainly exists.

    And there are certainly people who get very, very angry if they don’t get their share. Having a reputation as a slut, and then turning down a particular man, can be a very risky endeavour. Once you’ve made it clear you have no moral objections to casual sex, any objection at all to a particular man is obviously a personal rejection and can be taken very, very badly. Even worse is deciding to have sex with someone once, and then choosing not do so anymore.

    I no longer tell most people my marriage is open. It was too often interpreted as “oh, if your husband doesn’t have a claim on you, that means you can and will fuck anybody. Lie down and spread your legs.”

    But these men’s sense of entitlement over my body is their problem, not mine. The culture of casual sex is not the issue; the culture of misogyny is. Paglia can go fuck herself for blaming the deaths of 33 people, including a researcher in my field, on us sluts being too choosy.

  28. Jenny Dreadful
    Jenny Dreadful April 25, 2007 at 11:33 am |

    This type of misdirected, mysognistic invective is par for the course for Camille Paglia, but I’m truly disappointed that Salon continues to give her a forum. Increasingly, I’m disappointed in Salon in general. Did anyone see the headline for the interview with Jessica yesterday about her book? The headline was, “Is boob flashing a feminist statement?” As if that had fuck all to do with her book, or even the interview, really, excepting some lame questions in the middle.

  29. Clare
    Clare April 25, 2007 at 11:41 am |

    The Times Online article is staggeringly awful, incidentally: rambling, illogical, not to speak of offensive. I can’t believe they pay someone to write this rubbish. Extensively quoting a shameless self-promoter like Paglia only adds to the overall effect…

  30. Roy
    Roy April 25, 2007 at 12:19 pm |

    Jenny, it’s no better now- the article’s headline is “Tough titties” now.

    Salon is definitely disappointing. Look at the comments that they’ve tagged as “Editors’ Choices”. They’re… yeah. They’re choice, alright.

  31. Natalia
    Natalia April 25, 2007 at 12:59 pm |

    You know, I’ve been willing to give Camille a break as of late. But THIS?

    I’m surprised Paglia didn’t write admiringly of Cho for finally exhibiting some traditional masculinity by embracing Thanatos where he could not embrace Eros, faulting him only for shooting actual people instead of doing something she might do, like find transcendance through disco music, or empower himself by dropping the names of famous people or writing defenses of misogyny.

    You say it so much better than I ever could.

  32. raging red
    raging red April 25, 2007 at 1:18 pm |

    Wait, so do Paglia and this Sarah Baxter think we’re supposed to feel sorry for Cho because he couldn’t get laid? Let’s see what we know about him: He never talked. He secretly took photos of women in class. He sent IMs to women he didn’t know, then tracked them down and knocked on their doors. He was mean. Oh, and he was a really terrible writer.* Yeah, he was a real catch. That Times article is pure fiction. Cho sent “shy love messages full of yearning?” Yeah, and John Hinkley was just a hopeless romantic trying to woo Jodie Foster with his heartfelt poetry.

    * I mean, seriously — the only thing that really disturbed me about those two essays of his was that a senior in college, majoring in English no less, could write so horribly.

  33. Jump!
    Jump! April 25, 2007 at 1:30 pm |

    oh norbizness…you tricksey little punster.

  34. Clio Bluestocking
    Clio Bluestocking April 25, 2007 at 1:49 pm |

    To repeat, because it can never be said enough, “Sheesh, what an asshole.”

  35. Sylke
    Sylke April 25, 2007 at 1:52 pm |

    *Sigh*

    Women are too slutty and men resent them for being whores.
    Women aren’t slutty enough and men resent them for not being whores.
    Women think they’re equal to men and men resent them.
    Women are succeeding in college and men resent them.
    Women are succeeding in the military and men resent them.

    Women exist and men resent them.

    I am sick of all these nasty, resentful men who feel the need to lash out and “punish” women for not properly worshiping them. And it really makes me want to vomit when women join the chorus. When will the sniveling losers realize that IT’S NOT ALL ABOUT THEM!?! When I read story after story about crap like this, it makes me want to give up on trying to co-habitate amicably with the male race at all. What’s the point? I’m sure there’s some guy out there who resents the hell out of me for having more raisins in my beakfast cereal than he has in his.

    /rant

    Oh, and Camille Paglia is a douche.

  36. Holly
    Holly April 25, 2007 at 2:03 pm |

    There’s been a ton of speculation recently about how one of Cho’s main motives, or his main motive, must have been “frustrated and angry because he couldn’t get a date.” I’m a little confused as to how much evidence there actually is for this. That he was a creepy, maladjusted guy there’s no doubt. And he did creepy things like take pictures of girls’ legs and send love letters, and he didn’t have a girlfriend, but sadly I can think of any number of guys I went to college who fit that profile. Because a lot of college-age guys are really disgustingly misogynist, there’s often an atmosphere that tolerates or promotes that, and they were all raised in a misogynist culture.

    Was there actually anything in Cho’s writings or the package that he sent to NBC that indicated he was on his murder spree out of sexual frustration? Or are we just assuming that because somehow naturally that must be why a young man would have a psychotic flip-out and massacre people? He wasn’t targeting female students, with the possible exception of the first one, and it’s not clear why he shot her. The incredibly crappy Times UK article suggests “maybe she reminded him of another girl he liked” — what kind of half-assed speculation is that?? All this looking-for-an-explanation might be necessary, but it also seems like people are diving for the obvious answers instead of the more subtle ones… which definitely DO have to do with patriarchy and who is an “outsider” and mental illness, among other things. But a lot of these articles just make it sounds like “dude couldn’t get a date so he went nuts,” which is problematic for about eighteen different reasons.

  37. Thom
    Thom April 25, 2007 at 2:06 pm |

    Hey I’m 35 and still a virgin. Ticking time bomb, me.

    Yeah…me as well. I guess I am obligated to warn Human Resources at my job, huh?

  38. Lynn Gazis-Sax
    Lynn Gazis-Sax April 25, 2007 at 2:11 pm |

    I totally don’t get how Camille Paglia manages to claim to be “of the pro-sex wing of feminism,” when the natural conclusion of actually believing any of the stuff she writes would be either to want to lock yourself in a convent for life or to want to go become a lesbian separatist, somewhere far away from all men.

    I mean, it’s hard to imagine a stronger disincentive to ordinary heterosexual sex than being obliged to “service” absolutely any potential serial killer who might want you, any time, for the rest of your life.

  39. Doctress Julia
    Doctress Julia April 25, 2007 at 2:26 pm |

    Sylke, I had to quote you on my blog. I hope you don’t mind. I get so angry and I cannot articulate myself; you do it very well. Thanks.

  40. Donna Darko
    Donna Darko April 25, 2007 at 2:42 pm |

    His main motivation was the bullying from
    bullying from the rich kids from his church group.
    Lovely, eh? Hence his “manifesto” against rich kids and Christianity.

    Cho was trapped in a generational warp, neither quite Korean like his parents nor American like his peers. His parents turned to the church for help with his emotional problems, but he was bullied in his Christian youth group, especially by rich kids. “Cho was a smart student who could understand the meaning of the Bible,” recalled his boyhood pastor at Centreville (Va.) Korean Presbyterian Church, who asked not to be identified in an interview with NEWSWEEK to avoid further media inquiries. But the pastor doubted that Cho believed the words.

  41. Mighty Ponygirl
    Mighty Ponygirl April 25, 2007 at 2:57 pm |

    Wasn’t that an episode of The Gilmore Girls?

  42. Tanooki Joe
    Tanooki Joe April 25, 2007 at 3:34 pm |

    I totally don’t get how Camille Paglia manages to claim to be “of the pro-sex wing of feminism,” when the natural conclusion of actually believing any of the stuff she writes would be either to want to lock yourself in a convent for life or to want to go become a lesbian separatist, somewhere far away from all men.

    I’ve been wondering that too. I haven’t read anything by Paglia (admittedly, I do try to avoid her, for the obvious reasons) that actually approves of women enjoying their sexuality.

  43. greensmile
    greensmile April 25, 2007 at 3:38 pm |

    I thought I had a pretty far-out solution to the problem of massacre-mined loners but Paglia is so incredibly backward its hard to believe she was serious. And sick: that is an enabling attitude for rapists if I ever read one.

    I volunteer Paglia to implement her amazing advice.

  44. greensmile
    greensmile April 25, 2007 at 3:43 pm |

    Donna Darko: yes there are are now a pile of similar reports with that same conclusion, the Boston Globe article I link is particularly clear on it. That it was mean kids in church seems particularly damning…what does Paglia say about churhces? Not much.

  45. R. Mildred
    R. Mildred April 25, 2007 at 4:07 pm |

    Was there actually anything in Cho’s writings or the package that he sent to NBC that indicated he was on his murder spree out of sexual frustration?

    Well the mr beefsteak (or whatever it was called) script could be read with the son character as a symbolic archetype for the “jerks” he railed against during the killings – with of course the mother figure standing in for the women who like the jerks rather htan nice guys like the titular character (representing Cho).

    Of course I think that Cho was just a regular Nice Guy type without the usual release valve of guys or platonic female freinds to whine at.

    So privelage + social isolation + general lameness of character = 32 murdered and a suicide, imho.

    Of course Pagllia’s wrong on the simple count that as a Nice Guy, if a girl had seriously offered herself to him he’d either have refused becuase Nice Guys exist with the basic neurotic need to be disliked to justify their paranoia, histrionics and general persecution complex or if he had managed to allow himself to get laid, he’d probably have had the final psychotic break earlier as he tried to square the sex with the persecution complex.

    though the most simple wya to sqaure those two circle would have been by locking hte poor woman into an archetypal acquaintence rape abusive relationship – whether she wanted out of the relationship or not.

    Of course, ymmv.

  46. Mostly Normal
    Mostly Normal April 25, 2007 at 4:17 pm |

    It’s mean kids at church now?

    As long as somebody gets blamed.

  47. Danyell
    Danyell April 25, 2007 at 4:43 pm |

    I’m a little confuses here: Are we having sex with too many men, too much; or too few men too little? I get that ALL women are to blame for ALL violence, because of men’s supposed inability to control their sexual desires or emotions comprised therein, I’m just not sure exactly how.

    (In case anyone doesn’t get that I was being completely sarcastic, I’m saying it now: sarcasm.)

    I admit, I don’t know a whole lot about Camile Paglia, but not much that I’ve heard is good. I’m wondering if I should read one of her books just to get a clearer sense of her negative impact on contemporary feminism. Then again, I’m afraid it would hurt my brain as much as reading an Ann Coulter book. Does she make any good points about anything? I had heard that she thought being a stripper is an empowering choice, but on the other hand will blame sex workers (or just very sexual women) for “encouraging” men to rape them. That sort of logic makes no sense to me.

    But this kind of language; blaming feminism for society’s faults, is only a powerful sign of how much the powers that be are still intimidated by feminism and why REAL feminism is still very much needed.

  48. nik
    nik April 25, 2007 at 5:16 pm |

    Seriously, why the hate for Paglia? This is the umteenth time I’ve seem feminists react to her the way MRAs react to Andrea Dworkin. What is it? She is at least nominally on your side, isn’t she?

  49. Steph
    Steph April 25, 2007 at 5:27 pm |

    Nice to know we women are to blame. Had to wonder about that.

    So let’s see… do I teach my daughter to have sex more freely or never at all until marriage? Which will cause the least blame? Ahh, the decisions a parent must make! Good thing I have a few years. Hopefully by then someone can tell us.

    What a nutcase. Salon, surely you can do better than her.

  50. nik
    nik April 25, 2007 at 5:37 pm |

    No, it’s not specifically about this. I wouldn’t be posting if it were just one article complaining about one comment. I’ve seen her bashed so many times for different things on so many different sites.

  51. MattC
    MattC April 25, 2007 at 5:54 pm |

    No, it’s not specifically about this. I wouldn’t be posting if it were just one article complaining about one comment. I’ve seen her bashed so many times for different things on so many different sites.

    Clio (post #36) linked to an article by Molly Ivins. It’s a review of Paglia’s original vacuous academic shitfest “Sexual Personae”. Aside frome being completely hilarious and a shining example of why Molly Ivins will always be one of my favorite Texans, it basically hits the major complaints that intelligent people have with Paglia. One is that here whole work is based around universalizing conclusions that she draws from her own bizarre anecdotes. The second is that all of her work is based around ridiculous binary oppositions that make very little sense. The third is that she unnecessarily critical of second-and-third-wave feminists. And I don’t mean, like, she’s too mean. I mean that her arguments don’t actually make any sense… like when she blames anorexia on second wave feminism.

    Maybe you didn’t read efk’s post. But its really funny because its completely true. “…[E]xhibiting some traditional masculinity by embracing Thanatos where he could not embrace Eros” is precisely the kind of crap that Paglia writes. And she is out-of-control obsessed with Maddona. That last part isn’t a real critique, but its creepy.

  52. Aura Kitten
    Aura Kitten April 25, 2007 at 5:56 pm |

    Not to change the subject but since I can’t find a way to contact Jill or zuzu or anyone, but I think this needs to be addressed ~~~

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/25/comfort.women.ap/index.html

    Quote: “As expected, after it opened it was elbow to elbow,” the history says. “The comfort women … had some resistance to selling themselves to men who just yesterday were the enemy, and because of differences in language and race, there were a great deal of apprehensions at first. But they were paid highly, and they gradually came to accept their work peacefully.”

    =(

  53. Mnemosyne
    Mnemosyne April 25, 2007 at 5:56 pm |

    She is at least nominally on your side, isn’t she?

    Uh, no, she isn’t.

    Remember that weird kid in junior high school who glommed on to you, insisted on sitting next to you on the bus, and thought s/he was so funny when s/he repeated a joke from Jay Leno that you’d all heard a year ago? And then you found out that this person was running you down to everyone else behind your back the whole time s/he was insisting that s/he was your best friend in the whole world, even though you refused to give him/her your phone number.

    That’s who Paglia is to feminists.

  54. Sandy D.
    Sandy D. April 25, 2007 at 6:01 pm |

    Clio Bluestocking, thank you so much for linking to the Ivins column on Paglia. That was the best and funniest review of Paglia I’ve ever read. I wish Molly Ivins was still here today to do a follow-up.

  55. ali eteraz
    ali eteraz April 25, 2007 at 6:05 pm |

    i think ur reading too much into it zuzu

    she says:

    Also, our sex-permeated mass culture, popular culture makes it seem to a marginal and socially inept person like Cho as if everybody’s getting it.

    “marginal and socially inept”

    she’s blaming cho. she also calls him psychotic.

    also lets b honest. we do have a sex obsessed mass culture. hip hop, porn, tabloids, maxim, girls gone wild.

  56. Elley
    Elley April 25, 2007 at 6:10 pm |

    Nik, read the articles linked. Paglia is saying that women who have sex with lots of guys are being incredibly cruel to the guys we don’t have sex with. Because it’s not women have opinions or anything, we’re either virgins or we’re whores “servicing” any guy we see. Read the articles, or just try reading the rest of the comments. If you actually want to try defending Paglia, then give it a go, but I think we’ve established why we don’t like her.

    On another note, why don’t people like Paglia ever say that guys should start having sex with “fat” or “ugly” women, because you know, poor them. If I said that guys should “service” me because they’ve been with other women people would look at me like I’m completely nuts. But a guy doesn’t get laid and women are sooo mean. Asshats.

  57. ali eteraz
    ali eteraz April 25, 2007 at 6:11 pm |

    i do concur w.comment above that paglia is not in the pro-sex side of feminism.

    pro-sex side values autonomy

    it is clear that paglia places autonomy below other concerns i.e. not being exploited.

  58. Jorge
    Jorge April 25, 2007 at 6:30 pm |

    The various theories on the causes that contributed to the Virginia Tech massacre that have surfaced from all kinds of sources have convinced me of one thing: I’m not cynical enough. It wouldn’t have occurred to me that anyone could make up this drivel.

  59. Clio Bluestocking
    Clio Bluestocking April 25, 2007 at 6:34 pm |

    Sandy D, you are quite welcome! That one, among many of Ivins’ essays, just never gets old for me. Whenever I hear Paglia’s name, I just think of that essay and giggle gleefully to myself all day. The mirth and insight must be shared!

  60. Lynn Gazis-Sax
    Lynn Gazis-Sax April 25, 2007 at 8:10 pm |

    Seriously, why the hate for Paglia?

    In my case, it’s her view of the nature of sex. If I were given a choice of accepting the worldview about sex of one of the following four people: Andrea Dworkin, Susie Bright, the Pope, or Camille Paglia, Camille Paglia would be my dead last choice.

    She is at least nominally on your side, isn’t she?

    I care more about taking seriously the “consenting” part of “consenting adults” than I do about who’s “nominally on my side.”

  61. mythago
    mythago April 25, 2007 at 8:35 pm |

    . I’ve seen her bashed so many times for different things on so many different sites.

    Why do you think that might be? Perhaps because she’s said so many hateful, dumbfuck things to get attention and because she loves the sound of her own voice? She’s the perfect mate for John Derbyshire.

  62. ninjanurse
    ninjanurse April 25, 2007 at 8:40 pm |

    wow, Life Site is blaming pornograpy and an exotic dancer for his killing spree. i guess it’s women’s fault either way.

  63. Danyell
    Danyell April 25, 2007 at 8:49 pm |

    Ali eteraz-

    It is true, we do live in an over-sexed culture. But she seems to imply that this is the fault of women, rather than a role often placed on women. And she is not the first to suggest that had his crush girl given him some, he might not have flown off the deep end.

  64. I should have invited that guy over for tea and sex, right? « Natalia Antonova

    [...] 17;t he combine Apollonian coldness and efficiency with Dionysian fervour, or something? A commenter on Feministe [...]

  65. Holly
    Holly April 25, 2007 at 9:24 pm |

    Not to change the subject but since I can’t find a way to contact Jill or zuzu or anyone, but I think this needs to be addressed ~~~

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/25/comfort.women.ap/index.html

    Wow, thanks for posting that, I didn’t know the AP had confirmed this stuff recently. I mentioned this part of WWII history the last time there was a story on Feministe about Japan and comfort women, and the only response I got was one guy who claimed to be an expert on Japanese history telling me that it wasn’t comparable to the pre-occupation comfort women system run by the Japanese military. Which is true in a whole lot of ways, I don’t think it’s exactly the same at all, but still, it was a US-government-sanctioned system of exploitative and coercive prostitution, and that is worth paying attention to, not sweeping under the rug.

  66. mythago
    mythago April 25, 2007 at 10:13 pm |

    I mean, I think that is kind of, over the long run, kind of degrading for women, OK? They’re playing a male game

    How dare those girls do what we guys do! Bitches be stealin our flava!

  67. preying mantis
    preying mantis April 25, 2007 at 11:26 pm |

    “They’re playing a male game, and I don’t think they understand the psychological consequences.”

    …the hell? It’s not like guys are an alien species, or that having a penis makes you proof against the cold world of people not calling you the next day. Or, for that matter, that having a vagina means you’ll want the person to call you the next day.

  68. Lynn Gazis-Sax
    Lynn Gazis-Sax April 26, 2007 at 12:32 am |

    Don’t you know? Guys never experience any psychological consequences from sex; they’re immune to heartbreak; they just bounce. Except for the minor psychological consequence that they kill dozens of people any time you don’t sleep with them.

    And, you know, under this whole theory it doesn’t even matter whether I, personally, am a slut or not. The fact that all those other scabs women are hooking up just guarantees that any rejection I dole out has to be super personal; their sluttiness has brought my price down to the point where I’m not allowed to say no.

  69. Mnemosyne
    Mnemosyne April 26, 2007 at 1:03 am |

    Don’t you know? Guys never experience any psychological consequences from sex; they’re immune to heartbreak; they just bounce. Except for the minor psychological consequence that they kill dozens of people any time you don’t sleep with them.

    Kinda like the whole thing of “women suffer from depression more than men do,” but it turns out that twice as many men kill themselves as compared to women.

    Hey, Dr. Genius, think there’s any possibility there that the men who are killing themselves might be depressed? And yet it’s only just within the last year or two that psychologists have even been willing to concede that maybe men do get depressed at higher rates than we’ve been willing to admit.

  70. Donna Darko
    Donna Darko April 26, 2007 at 1:16 am |

    Criminologists are saying mass murderers are failures and feel the whole world is responsible for their failure. Part of this failure is lack of success with women. But they’re not going to pin this one on women:

    NBC said the package contained a 1,800-word diatribe and 29 photos, 11 of them showing him aiming handguns at the camera. Much of the rant is incoherent and filled with obscenities. He rails against Christianity and the rich.blockquote>

    He rants against Christianity and the rich. Rich kids in his church youth group. Good luck trying to pin it on women, folks.

  71. Donna Darko
    Donna Darko April 26, 2007 at 1:42 am |

    Here is the link.

  72. Confused
    Confused April 26, 2007 at 6:39 am |

    I’m with ali eteraz; I think that Paglia’s past opinions must have caused you to read something into this that just isn’t there.

    I’ve read the quotes several times, and I don’t see where she’s blaming women for the tragedy.

    Where do you see it?

  73. preying mantis
    preying mantis April 26, 2007 at 8:16 am |

    “Hey, Dr. Genius, think there’s any possibility there that the men who are killing themselves might be depressed?”

    Pfft. Everyone knows that men kill themselves for the same reasons ninja do–they get super pissed and can’t find anybody else to kill. It certainly can’t be depression. Everyone knows that testicles are nature’s cure for that.

  74. Lina
    Lina April 26, 2007 at 10:34 am |

    I just did a blog post on this (actually, all I was doing was drawing attention to this, I’ve really not said anything at all other than it left me speechless, not terribly interesting) and I had a commenter telling me more or less that I gave feminism a bad name…. Another interesting interpretation…

  75. Donna Darko
    Donna Darko April 26, 2007 at 5:48 pm |

    Here is everything she said in that article. Clearly, she blames women, schools and strangely enough, blacks:

    Camille Paglia, professor of humanities and media studies at the University of the Arts in Philadelphia and author of Sexual Personae, believes Cho is emblematic of the crisis of masculinity in America. “Women have difficulty understanding the mix of male sexual aggression with egotism and the ecstasy of self-immolation,” she says. Or to quote Martin Amis on that other killer, Fred West: he became “addicted to the moment where impotence becomes prepotence”.

    WTF so women don’t understand that men don’t want sex; men just want to kill themselves and others. She blames women here.

    Paglia believes the school Cho attended would have been no better equipped to deal with frustrated young males. “There is nothing happening educationally in these boring prisons that are fondly called suburban high schools. They are saturated with a false humanitarianism, which is especially damaging for boys.

    “Young men have enormous energy. There was a time when they could run away, hop on a freighter, go to a factory and earn money, do something with their hands. Now there is this snobbery of the upper-middle-class professional. Everyone has to be a lawyer or paper pusher.”

    Cho is a classic example of “someone who felt he was a loser in the cruel social rat race”, Paglia says. The pervasive hook-up culture at college, where girls are prepared to sleep with boys they barely know or fancy, can be a source of seething resentment and alienation for those who are left out.


    “Young women now seem to want to behave like men and have sex without commitment. The signals they are giving are very confusing, and rage and humiliation build up in boys who are spurned again and again.”


    The sex, Paglia argues, “is everywhere but it is not erotic”, as can be seen by the sad spectacle of Lindsay Lohan and Britney Spears flashing their lack of underwear during a night on the town. “It’s not even titillating. It’s banal and debasing.”

    She blames women here.

    Paglia is a defender of the constitutional right to bear arms in America. She is troubled, however, by the ease with which Cho bought his weapons. “The problem is not hunting guns but these semi-automatic weapons. He could not have cut down that many people so quickly or with such brutal efficiency without them. They have no use except for commandos, swat teams and paramilitary organisations.

    “This is part of the plague that has come with the drug culture in the inner cities,” she says. “Cho’s use of semi-automatic weapons can ultimately be traced back to gangsta rap. It is a fabrication of urban life which is sold to teenagers trapped in the utterly sterile shopping-mall culture of the American suburbs.”

    “Throughout most of human history men have been armed, but with swords not guns,” Paglia observes. As the weapons grow more deadly, even a solitary “boy” can commit the worst massacre in American history. This is the 19th such scenario in the past decade. Unfortunately it is unlikely to be the last.

    So American male violence is due to blacks and gangster rap.

    What also annoys me right now is the focus of the investigation on his ties to Emily Hilscher. They are trying to play up Yellow Peril stereotype to keep white women away from Asian men.

  76. Hector B.
    Hector B. April 26, 2007 at 8:31 pm |

    I think the argument is that if girls are going to put out, they’d better make sure that everyone, including the Chos of the world, get their fair share.

    Although Paglia’s conversation was hard to follow, I’m thinking her argument is slightly different: She’s not advising pity fucks for the deranged, but that women should not appear to be fucking everyone but Mr. Psycho. To me, she’s saying: “girls” shouldn’t put out freely because that leaves “the marginal and socially inept” with no illusions why they’re not getting laid: not, for example, because the women are saving themselves for marriage, not because the women are only having sex within the context of a committed relationship, but basically because women wouldn’t have sex with you if you were the last man on earth. Once Mr. Psychopath is forced to realize this, rather than accept his inadequacies, he goes postal. Again, I don’t think Paglia’s advising women to screw the unhinged to keep them happy.

  77. Raincitygirl
    Raincitygirl April 27, 2007 at 12:13 am |

    Either way, it’s women’s fault.

    Well, duh! Are you new?

  78. appletree  » Blog Archive   » Thursday Links: ‘Feminists Against Bigotry’ Edition

    [...] ecomes a bit awkward. Zuzu of Feministe points out that Paglia’s comments were later cited by the UK Times, an outlet that n [...]

  79. Manju
    Manju April 28, 2007 at 7:39 pm |

    I have a quick Q about comment policy. I left a comment on this thread a few days back. After my name it said “your comment is awaiting moderation.”

    It was like that for a few days. Now I’m at a different computer and I don’t see my comment. What happenned?

  80. SpiritofMargaretBrent
    SpiritofMargaretBrent April 29, 2007 at 11:29 am |

    When people blame women for this kind of thing, I think they should be locked into a room with Margaritaville playing on a 24/7 loop. Until they finally understand the last chorus which goes “And some people claim that there’s a woman to blame/But I know it’s my own damn fault.”

    Sure, it might lead to inappropriate flip flop wear, excessive margarita consumption and lost shakers of salt, but it’s a risk I’m willing to take.

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