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	<title>Comments on: What Does a Giant Q-Tip have to do With Your Privacy?</title>
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	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:14:04 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Bunny</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-105610</link>
		<dc:creator>Bunny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 May 2007 06:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-105610</guid>
		<description>We&#039;ve been having a similar problem in UK with the proposed (and laughable) ID cards.  Every citizen, whether a criminal or law abiding, would be required, the next time they buy a passport, to give up DNA, fingerprints an retinal information to be added onto some card which will be kept on a database including our personal information (age, criminal convictions, race, etc) and which, they say, will be useful in security.

Forget for one moment that a) DNA is not as good as everyone says it is, b) the retinal scan has been proven to be quite useless for people with certain blindness-causing conditions and c) our governments awful prior record at computerized information.

The only way those cards would be useful is if it became law to keep one on your person and present it to the police whenever they ask.  Again, even forgetting such incidents as Charles de Mendez and that awful prison Gladiator game, this is a bad idea.

You want to know the issue with the USA keeping DNA data on minor criminals?  You guys struggle to keep your rights even with such a powerful constitution explicitly stating those rights.  What you are experiencing is the slippery slope to what our government wants to bring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve been having a similar problem in UK with the proposed (and laughable) ID cards.  Every citizen, whether a criminal or law abiding, would be required, the next time they buy a passport, to give up DNA, fingerprints an retinal information to be added onto some card which will be kept on a database including our personal information (age, criminal convictions, race, etc) and which, they say, will be useful in security.</p>
<p>Forget for one moment that a) DNA is not as good as everyone says it is, b) the retinal scan has been proven to be quite useless for people with certain blindness-causing conditions and c) our governments awful prior record at computerized information.</p>
<p>The only way those cards would be useful is if it became law to keep one on your person and present it to the police whenever they ask.  Again, even forgetting such incidents as Charles de Mendez and that awful prison Gladiator game, this is a bad idea.</p>
<p>You want to know the issue with the USA keeping DNA data on minor criminals?  You guys struggle to keep your rights even with such a powerful constitution explicitly stating those rights.  What you are experiencing is the slippery slope to what our government wants to bring.</p>
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		<title>By: Danyell</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-105011</link>
		<dc:creator>Danyell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2007 02:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-105011</guid>
		<description>I, too, am confused about the potential for abuse here. I think it sounds like a pretty good idea.

Usually in ore serious crimes, cops look through people&#039;s priors ANYWAY. The first people they&#039;ll look at are those with the same type of crimes. If that doesn&#039;t match, they look for people with minor crimes. At least with DNA they can filter through all that more quickly to find the most likely (hopefully) correct suspects. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I, too, am confused about the potential for abuse here. I think it sounds like a pretty good idea.</p>
<p>Usually in ore serious crimes, cops look through people&#8217;s priors ANYWAY. The first people they&#8217;ll look at are those with the same type of crimes. If that doesn&#8217;t match, they look for people with minor crimes. At least with DNA they can filter through all that more quickly to find the most likely (hopefully) correct suspects.</p>
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		<title>By: Ursula L</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104842</link>
		<dc:creator>Ursula L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2007 02:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104842</guid>
		<description>I think I&#039;d like to see &lt;i&gt;at least&lt;/i&gt; one more step in the process.

A match from this database should be explicitly &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; probably cause for an arrest, or admissible on appeal.

Rather, such a match should be &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; grounds for collecting a new sample from the matched person for testing.  

This sample should be submitted for matching, along with &lt;i&gt;at least&lt;/i&gt; four other samples, with each sample being sent to a different lab along with the original from the crime scene, for comparison.  These are submitted by mail, with a standardized form that doesn&#039;t let the lab have any clue if their sample is the suspect or the controls.  Which lab each gets sent to is chosen randomly from an approved list. 

So five labs get one suspect and one evidence sample for testing, knowing they only have no more than a one in five chance of getting the actual suspect.

And the results of &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; tests must be given to the defense.  So any error will be evidence for exoneration, not a way for labs to help the cops they work with by telling them what they want to hear.  

Another step might work as follows:

The investigating detectives and prosecutors don&#039;t get to know which lab did the test until  the case is actually at trial.  The trial must have people from all the labs testify, followed by a witness who knows which went where testifying (without knowing results) which sample was the suspects.  

The last, I don&#039;t feel quite as strongly about. The main thing is to have a test specific for the case, with the lab folk believing that the odds are that they don&#039;t have a match, and that any false positive would be specific evidence against the state&#039;s case, not a way to help detectives they work with and know. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;d like to see <i>at least</i> one more step in the process.</p>
<p>A match from this database should be explicitly <i>not</i> probably cause for an arrest, or admissible on appeal.</p>
<p>Rather, such a match should be <i>only</i> grounds for collecting a new sample from the matched person for testing.  </p>
<p>This sample should be submitted for matching, along with <i>at least</i> four other samples, with each sample being sent to a different lab along with the original from the crime scene, for comparison.  These are submitted by mail, with a standardized form that doesn&#8217;t let the lab have any clue if their sample is the suspect or the controls.  Which lab each gets sent to is chosen randomly from an approved list. </p>
<p>So five labs get one suspect and one evidence sample for testing, knowing they only have no more than a one in five chance of getting the actual suspect.</p>
<p>And the results of <i>all</i> tests must be given to the defense.  So any error will be evidence for exoneration, not a way for labs to help the cops they work with by telling them what they want to hear.  </p>
<p>Another step might work as follows:</p>
<p>The investigating detectives and prosecutors don&#8217;t get to know which lab did the test until  the case is actually at trial.  The trial must have people from all the labs testify, followed by a witness who knows which went where testifying (without knowing results) which sample was the suspects.  </p>
<p>The last, I don&#8217;t feel quite as strongly about. The main thing is to have a test specific for the case, with the lab folk believing that the odds are that they don&#8217;t have a match, and that any false positive would be specific evidence against the state&#8217;s case, not a way to help detectives they work with and know.</p>
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		<title>By: zuzu</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104831</link>
		<dc:creator>zuzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2007 01:18:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104831</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But the proposed NY law would require that anyone convicted of any crime be entered into the database.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Exactly.  Even misdemeanors, like turnstile jumping.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But the proposed NY law would require that anyone convicted of any crime be entered into the database.</p></blockquote>
<p>Exactly.  Even misdemeanors, like turnstile jumping.</p>
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		<title>By: Mnemosyne</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104828</link>
		<dc:creator>Mnemosyne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2007 01:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104828</guid>
		<description>Erika, link please.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erika, link please.</p>
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		<title>By: I *Heart* Eliot Spitzer &#171; Reality-Related Program Activities</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104825</link>
		<dc:creator>I *Heart* Eliot Spitzer &#171; Reality-Related Program Activities</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2007 00:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104825</guid>
		<description>[...]  George W. Bush   									 		 			I *Heart* Eliot&#160;Spitzer  			May 15th, 2007 		 		 			This Feministe post brough [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  George W. Bush   									 		 			I *Heart* Eliot&nbsp;Spitzer  			May 15th, 2007 		 		 			This Feministe post brough [...]</p>
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		<title>By: preying mantis</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104816</link>
		<dc:creator>preying mantis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2007 23:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104816</guid>
		<description>&quot;Haven’t they asked entire neighborhoods or towns for samples before?&quot;

There have been multiple instances in several countries where the police have &lt;i&gt;requested&lt;/i&gt; that, say, all post-pubescent males in a small town submit DNA samples for comparison to evidence collected during the investigation of a specific case.  They&#039;ve had good participation rates in the past when there haven&#039;t been chilling factors (concern over the collected samples not being destroyed in a timely fashion as promised, concern over general police trustworthiness) in effect.  Police misconduct can fairly well dismantle what community outrage sets up; people give the samples when there&#039;s no reason not to and community opprobrium to encourage it, but they&#039;re less likely to comply when they can field a legitimate excuse and refuse without implicating themselves.

I don&#039;t think there&#039;s any place where the cops can go about willy-nilly &lt;i&gt;demanding&lt;/i&gt; that citizens who are neither well-established suspects nor particularly beholden to the state (incarcerated persons and persons on parole being two frequent exceptions) submit DNA samples.  There&#039;s that whole being secure in one&#039;s person deal, for one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Haven’t they asked entire neighborhoods or towns for samples before?&#8221;</p>
<p>There have been multiple instances in several countries where the police have <i>requested</i> that, say, all post-pubescent males in a small town submit DNA samples for comparison to evidence collected during the investigation of a specific case.  They&#8217;ve had good participation rates in the past when there haven&#8217;t been chilling factors (concern over the collected samples not being destroyed in a timely fashion as promised, concern over general police trustworthiness) in effect.  Police misconduct can fairly well dismantle what community outrage sets up; people give the samples when there&#8217;s no reason not to and community opprobrium to encourage it, but they&#8217;re less likely to comply when they can field a legitimate excuse and refuse without implicating themselves.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s any place where the cops can go about willy-nilly <i>demanding</i> that citizens who are neither well-established suspects nor particularly beholden to the state (incarcerated persons and persons on parole being two frequent exceptions) submit DNA samples.  There&#8217;s that whole being secure in one&#8217;s person deal, for one.</p>
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		<title>By: evil fizz</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104809</link>
		<dc:creator>evil fizz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2007 23:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104809</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Haven’t they asked entire neighborhoods or towns for samples before? Or the Duke lacrosse team?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Emphasis on asked.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Haven’t they asked entire neighborhoods or towns for samples before? Or the Duke lacrosse team?</p></blockquote>
<p>Emphasis on asked.</p>
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		<title>By: bean</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104793</link>
		<dc:creator>bean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2007 22:20:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104793</guid>
		<description>Yes, there are plenty of cases in which DNA makes a difference. And I think crimes of violence (burglary is often considered to be a crime of violence b/c it requires force) are prime candidates for DNA collection. But the proposed NY law would require that anyone convicted of any crime be entered into the database. 

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, there are plenty of cases in which DNA makes a difference. And I think crimes of violence (burglary is often considered to be a crime of violence b/c it requires force) are prime candidates for DNA collection. But the proposed NY law would require that anyone convicted of any crime be entered into the database.</p>
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		<title>By: Erika</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104785</link>
		<dc:creator>Erika</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2007 22:08:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/05/15/what-does-a-giant-q-tip-have-to-do-with-your-privacy/#comment-104785</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Tragedy struck on the night of July 7, 1993 when Zapata was brutally raped and murdered by Jesus Mezquia while walking home from a friend&#039;s house.

According to Unsolved Mysteries, a couple watching the late show heard what sounded like screams. A streetwalker found her beaten and mutilated body posed in a Christ-like fashion around 3:30 AM. According to the medical examiner, if she had not been strangled she would have died from the internal injuries suffered during the beating.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;A jury convicted Florida fisherman Jesus Mezquia of her murder on March 25, 2004, and he was sentenced to 36 years in prison...Mezquia was linked to the crime in 2003 when a DNA profile was extracted from a saliva sample left on Zapata&#039;s body. It had been kept in cold storage until the STR technology was developed for full extraction. An original entry in 2001 failed to generate a positive result but &lt;b&gt;Mezquia&#039;s DNA entered the national databank after he was arrested in Florida for burglary in 2002.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Tragedy struck on the night of July 7, 1993 when Zapata was brutally raped and murdered by Jesus Mezquia while walking home from a friend&#8217;s house.</p>
<p>According to Unsolved Mysteries, a couple watching the late show heard what sounded like screams. A streetwalker found her beaten and mutilated body posed in a Christ-like fashion around 3:30 AM. According to the medical examiner, if she had not been strangled she would have died from the internal injuries suffered during the beating.</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>A jury convicted Florida fisherman Jesus Mezquia of her murder on March 25, 2004, and he was sentenced to 36 years in prison&#8230;Mezquia was linked to the crime in 2003 when a DNA profile was extracted from a saliva sample left on Zapata&#8217;s body. It had been kept in cold storage until the STR technology was developed for full extraction. An original entry in 2001 failed to generate a positive result but <b>Mezquia&#8217;s DNA entered the national databank after he was arrested in Florida for burglary in 2002.</b></p></blockquote>
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