Because respecting women means making all their decisions for them

suffrage
Now these guys had the right idea!

For many years, the political struggle over abortion was often framed as a starkly binary choice: the interest of the woman, advocated by supporters of abortion rights, versus the interest of the fetus, advocated by opponents of abortion.

But last month’s Supreme Court decision upholding the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act marked a milestone for a different argument advanced by anti-abortion leaders, one they are increasingly making in state legislatures around the country. They say that abortion, as a rule, is not in the best interest of the woman; that women are often misled or ill-informed about its risks to their own physical or emotional health; and that the interests of the pregnant woman and the fetus are, in fact, the same.

They support women so much that they want to make the right decision for us, since clearly we don’t know what we’re doing. And they make an excellent point. After all, we have a long national history of making decisions for women, in their best interests of course. Women wanted to work as lawyers? Silly rabbit, lawyers are mens! And so the wise old dudes on the Supreme Court of yesteryear reminded us that it is women’s “paramount destiny” to “fulfill the noble and benign offices of wife and mother. This is the law of the Creator.”

It’s also the law of the anti-choice view.

Because look what happens when the women are allowed to decide for themselves what to do with their lives: All havoc breaks loose! If we had just listened to the Court in 1873, we wouldn’t have had uppity female attorneys, judges and legal scholars like Ruth Bader Ginsberg, Sandra Day O’Connor, Catherine Waugh McColloch, Dorothy Roberts, Sarah Weddington, Linda Coffee, Catharine MacKinnon, Mari Matsuda, Kimberle Crenshaw, and on and on. It’s been women, after all, who have generally fought for women’s rights, and who have challenged long-held assumptions and social rules that privilege men. They’ve really shaken shit up. And look what’s happened — women today are miserable. They’re opting out. They’re raising juvenile delinquents. They’re making their kids fat. They aren’t sleeping. They even choose to make less money.

Clearly, American women are a collective mess. Now, I know what you’re saying — there isn’t a whole lot of actual definitive data to tie working mothers to fat kids or delinquent children, the whole opting-out thing never actually happened, and what kind of moron chooses to make less money than someone doing the same work (yes, Virginia, the pay gap and the motherhood penalty are real)? But we can’t let silly facts get in the way of making sure women don’t screw up by making their own decisions. And anti-choicers are carrying on that proud tradition of totally making shit up if it means that it’ll allow men to make women’s choices for them — always in the best interests of the little ladies, of course:

The foundation, a nonprofit public interest litigation firm that has handled an array of conservative causes, has increasingly focused on abortion through its project called Operation Outcry. Mr. Parker said the group began hearing from women in the late 1990s who considered themselves victims of legalized abortion — physically and emotionally — and wanted to tell their stories. Operation Outcry, which grew to include a Web site, a national hot line and chapters around the country, eventually collected statements from more than 2,000 women, officials said.

In its friend-of-the-court brief, the group submitted statements from 180 of those women who said that abortion had left them depressed, distraught, in emotional turmoil. “Thirty-three years of real life experiences,” the foundation said, “attests that abortion hurts women and endangers their physical, emotional and psychological health.”

There are 1.3 million abortions performed in the United States every year. Abortion has been legal here since 1973, and while the abortion rate has differed over the years, there have been somewhere around 40 million abortions performed since Roe was decided. The experiences of 2,000 women are valid. Certainly those women regret their abortions if they say they regret their abortions. But 2,000 out of 40 million is not exactly demonstrative of a trend or a widespread issue. Even if we assume that the 2,000 is incredibly low — if for every 2,000 women who sign the petition, there are 100 who are silent — that still isn’t even 1 percent of the women who have terminated pregnancies in this country. People sometimes regret decisions they make, and there isn’t any reason why abortion should be any different. But clearly, paternalism demands that we save women from themselves by taking away their very rights to themselves.

Now, there isn’t really a question that illegal abortion kills women, and that women who live in countries where abortion is legal and accessible have far lower abortion-related injury and death rates than women who live in places where abortion is outlawed. Abortion indeed endangers women’s physical, emotional and psychological health — when it’s illegal or inaccessible. Because then, it makes them criminals. It puts them in the hospital. It kills them.

But since women may regret a choice that they made, we should clearly take away the right to make that choice! The 1873 Court could see this one coming from a mile away — if you give women choice and freedom, they’re gonna just go and muck it up. Better to just make their decisions for them. Luckily, we are blessed with a modern court that looks to its century-old predecessors for guidance when it comes to ensuring that women don’t fuck up their lives by doing anything voluntarily:

“While we find no reliable data to measure the phenomenon, it seems unexceptionable to conclude some women come to regret their choice to abort the infant life they once created and sustained,” Justice Kennedy wrote, alluding to the brief. “Severe depression and loss of esteem can follow.”

Given those stakes, the justice argued, “The state has an interest in ensuring so grave a choice is well informed.”

Kennedy wrote that a month ago, in the most recent abortion-related Supreme Court decision. How beautifully it echoes truths of the past.

I say we take this a step further and really ensure that women don’t regret anything ever. We should institute a fresh new system wherein women are property of their fathers until their father chooses who they marry (wouldn’t want her to mess that up and have to get a divorce — just look what happened when we gave women full divorce rights!), and then their husband controls all of the money, property, progeny and decisions. Obviously she would stay home and raise the children — in the manner dictated by her husband, of course, since the children would be legally his. Wouldn’t want her to make a bad parenting decision and regret it forever! And we definitely wouldn’t want her to regret going to school or getting a job.

If we do this long enough, we could get to the point that the incredibly enlightened Dean Barrett has reached — where he writes about reproduction, pregnancy abortion and manages to not use the word “woman” a single time.

I think it’s a brilliant and innovative plan. And because I know pro-lifers love women as much as I do, they will be the first to give up their decision-making roles as the heads of major conservative and anti-choice organizations. The women in these powerful positions are not only abandoning their motherly and wifely duties by working, but they are making major decisions which affect many, many people — what if they regret it later? I look forward to the immediate resignations of Wanda Franz, Patricia Heaton, Judie Brown, Phyllis Schlafly, Linda Chavez, Mary Ann Glendon, Dr. Pamela Smith, Beverly LaHaye, Wendy Wright and Janice Crouse.

And I definitely know some women who are regretting voting for George W. Bush. To protect them from future suffering, we must end women’s suffrage. It even sounds catchy.


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65 comments for “Because respecting women means making all their decisions for them

  1. Blue Jean
    May 22, 2007 at 1:05 am

    So…in the words of “Schoolhouse Rock”, we’re sufferin’ from suffrage?

  2. May 22, 2007 at 6:31 am

    Jill, thanks for putting words to my disbelief after reading that article this morning on NYT.com. My favorite quote, from the well-dressed white man whose photo is featured in the article:

    But Allan E. Parker Jr., president of the Justice Foundation, a conservative group based in Texas, compares the campaign intended for women to the long struggle to inform Americans about the risks of smoking. “We’re kind of in the early stages of tobacco litigation,” Mr. Parker said.

    Because abortion is absolutely akin to smoking. Absolutely.

  3. Mary
    May 22, 2007 at 7:47 am

    Because abortion is absolutely akin to smoking. Absolutely.

    Didn’t you know abortions give you breast cancer?

    What scares me are even pro-choice men like my father believe every woman wants and should have kids. I’m 24 and I don’t know my own mind. I need to be protected from the disappointment of an empty uterus.

    Sometimes I feel we’re doomed when even people who donate money to NARAL on a regular basis don’t think women know themselves.

  4. May 22, 2007 at 8:29 am

    I think that Scott Lemieux had something up about the twin pushes of most of these theocrats: anti-abortion and anti-contraception. Which means, naturally, that it’s less about being pro-life than pro-control of female sexuality. Man, Eve makes ONE mistake and nobody ever hears the end of it.

  5. May 22, 2007 at 9:03 am

    I will be saved from such concern, thank you. Not that I’m personally ever going to need an abortion, but women’s rights issues are human rights issues are my issues.

    I really, really, really wish that The Handmaid’s Tale didn’t keep looking more and more like prophecy.

  6. May 22, 2007 at 9:11 am

    Didn’t you know abortions give you breast cancer?

    Ha. And you know that these guys (powerful Texan conservative lobbyists) are the same ones who argued that smoking doesn’t cause lung cancer.

  7. Kristen
    May 22, 2007 at 9:57 am

    What scares me are even pro-choice men like my father believe every woman wants and should have kids. I’m 24 and I don’t know my own mind. I need to be protected from the disappointment of an empty uterus.

    Indeed.

    At 28, I still have not been able to find a doctor in the U.S. that would be willing to tie my tubes. Because of course I might regret it.

  8. Bitter Scribe
    May 22, 2007 at 10:13 am

    …women are often misled or ill-informed about its risks to their own physical or emotional health…

    That’s not a new one. Anti-choicers have been maintaining for years that the poor little dears just don’t know their own minds, they’re being pressured by their irresponsible boyfriends, etc.

    Which is only logical. Because otherwise, if women who get abortions actually knew what they were doing, they’d have to be prosecuted as murderers. And good luck trying to convince the tens of millions of Americans who have had abortions that they’re all murderers who belong in jail.

  9. Jenna
    May 22, 2007 at 10:29 am

    Just sent my LTE to the Globe:

    In his op-ed (“I’m pro-life, but not religious,” May 21), Mr. Barnett writes: ‘The big moral question regarding abortion is, “When does life begin?”‘

    His argument hinges on this premise, which is, in truth, completely inaccurate. The moral question regarding abortion is this, and only this: To what extent can another being use your body without your consent?

    Mr. Barnett entirely eludes the fact that there is, indeed, a live woman involved in the matter of pregnancy and abortion. It is her right to bodily integrity that concerns us in the matter of abortion.

    Mr. Barnett would be well served to add the carrier of the fetus back into the moral equation of abortion. Otherwise, the conclusion reached is entirely without merit.

  10. May 22, 2007 at 11:08 am

    Thank Goddess for the “assholes” tag.

  11. Perkyshai
    May 22, 2007 at 12:39 pm

    Hey! If I have an abortion, and get breast cancer, and get a double mastectomy, then I’ll have lost weight and will be desired by ALL for my weeness and lack of odiously invasive cleavage.

    I’d rather just kick that Creator in the balls. What an asshat.

  12. Ruth
    May 22, 2007 at 1:29 pm

    Does the Operation Outcry need a response similar to the ‘Project Steve’ response of the pro-science movement to the list of ‘scientists who deny evolution’?

    (For those who are not aware, Project Steve (named in honour of Stephen J Gould) is a list of scientists who endorse evolution, but only scientists named ‘Steve’, or variations thereof (Stefan, Stephanie, etc) are eligible for inclusion. It’s currently running at about ten times the number of ‘scientists’ (of all names) on the anti-evolution list).

    Do we need to take statements from women who regret NOT having an abortion, and who have been left ‘distressed, distraught and in emotional turmoil’ by carrying to term, and giving birth to, a child? To make the point, artificially restrict it to women with a particular name (Tess, perhaps, of D’Urberville fame?). You’d probably STILL end up with a far longer list than the one of women who regret their abortions.

  13. Bunny
    May 22, 2007 at 1:33 pm

    Ah, the assumption that we want to be pumped full of baby.

    I always hate those conversations with other women.

    “Oh, I love children. I always wanted a big family, I can’t wait to start!”
    “I’m not too bothered, but I guess I’m have kids after I get married.”
    “I’m going to wait before I have kids.”

    And me… “Yeah, I don’t want kids. Ever. Neither does my partner but doctor’s won’t let us have our bits cut.”

    Aaaand then comes the awkward silence, followed by “but why don’t you want babies? All girlies want babies!”

  14. Kristen
    May 22, 2007 at 2:14 pm

    Aaaand then comes the awkward silence, followed by “but why don’t you want babies? All girlies want babies!

    Or the equally obnoxious…don’t you like children??

    Of course I like children…other people’s children are adorable.

  15. Mary
    May 22, 2007 at 2:23 pm

    Aaaand then comes the awkward silence, followed by “but why don’t you want babies? All girlies want babies!”

    Or my personal favorite, “you’ll be the first to have one out of all of us!” I think I made a friend turn a little green when I replied, “No, in that case I’ll be the first to have an abortion.”

  16. RacyT
    May 22, 2007 at 2:28 pm

    Bunny, don’t you realize that we will change our minds when we “meet the right guy”? I’ve started just telling people who say that “If he wants kids, he won’t be the right guy.” Seriously, I’m 36 years old. When the hell is this going to stop? Oh, right. Never.

  17. cinnabari
    May 22, 2007 at 2:52 pm

    My husband and I are “too selfish” to be parents, according to my mother, but she congratulates us on being enough to know we’re too selfish. I mean, I’ve already indicated that should an accident of birth control occur–I might not choose to keep the pregnancy! And worse, if I did…I’d still keep my career, and use daycare. So it’s just as well we don’t ever have a kid since we wouldn’t raise it right anyway. Too selfish. See above.

    No, that’s not at all logical, but I think it’s the only way she can rationalize a daughter who’s got no desire to be a mother. Clearly there’s something wrong with me.

  18. Kristen
    May 22, 2007 at 3:20 pm

    No, that’s not at all logical, but I think it’s the only way she can rationalize a daughter who’s got no desire to be a mother. Clearly there’s something wrong with me.

    Well, there’s always my MIL who pulled me aside one sunny afternoon (a few years ago) and said, “You know, Kristen, you could just have the child and leave it with me. You wouldn’t have to actually take care of it.”

    ::Shudder::

  19. May 22, 2007 at 3:29 pm

    Since the whole Supreme Court case was about “partial-birth” abortion in particular, shouldn’t Operation Outcry have been expected to find women who’d had “partial-birth” abortions and later come to regret it? After all, if it’s as awful as they say, I’m sure such women are a dime a dozen.

    Moira:

    I really, really, really wish that The Handmaid’s Tale didn’t keep looking more and more like prophecy.

    I think the phrase you’re looking for is “owner’s manual”.

  20. Everyman
    May 22, 2007 at 3:48 pm

    Huh. A very similar argument to discussion on alicublog about raising the age of consent: to save women from the shame of making poor decisions (like exposing their bossoms for GGW).

    The other striking part to this (to me) is the whole thing revolves around “esteem” issues. A woman having an abortion or getting videotaped naked will lead them to feel badly about themselves, and we wouldn’t want them making decisions that lower their self esteem.

    As if self esteem should be elevated above self determination.

    While some of us believe that making one’s own decisions (good and bad) and living with them (including living with shame and humiliation) is preferable to being told what to do, I guess some (and disappointingly a number of women who would be effected by a shift toward caretaking) don’t.

    Or is it that they (particularly women who advocate these stances) do not fully understand the loss of self actuation that such a stance entails?

  21. Sarah
    May 22, 2007 at 5:36 pm

    I wonder if they imagine that being forced to give birth against her will is just great for a woman’s ‘physical, emotional and psychological health’, not to mention her ‘self-esteem’? Isn’t full-term pregnancy and childbirth actually generally more harmful to all these aspects of health than abortion?

  22. garnetfury
    May 23, 2007 at 1:05 am

    I’m pro choice.
    I think more women need to either CHOOSE keep the party in thier pants or CHOOSE to get their tubes tied instead of using abortion as some form of birth control. God this culture is fucked up. It reminds me of that episode of Aeon Flux where she crushed the aliens spine using a mechanical claw. Aliens body, her choice.

  23. Dianne
    May 23, 2007 at 4:30 am

    Isn’t full-term pregnancy and childbirth actually generally more harmful to all these aspects of health than abortion?

    Quite a bit. To start with, completing a pregnancy is somewhere between 10 and 20 X more likely to result in a woman’s death than having an abortion. (This is counting only deaths that are a direct result of the pregnancy, not, for example, domestic violence.) Then there’s post-partum depression, scarring from episiotomies/pudendal tears/c-sections, obstetric fistulas, urinary incontinence…the list goes on.

  24. micheyd
    May 23, 2007 at 6:54 am

    I think more women need to either CHOOSE keep the party in thier pants or CHOOSE to get their tubes tied instead of using abortion as some form of birth control.

    And what about those women who are taking their hormonal birth control perfectly (it does fail 1% of the time)? Surely they were acting responsibly, yet you feel the need to look down on them as “using abortion as some form of birth control”? It’s not just an imaginary irresponsible slut who has an unintended pregnancy, ya know?

  25. Wishy Washy
    May 23, 2007 at 10:28 am

    Sarah – pregnancy is not necessarily inherently more harmful in every case than abortion, but it entails far more risks, and on an ongoing basis (for 9 months!). I’m pregnant right now and having about the easiest pregnancy imaginable (knocking hard on wood) and I still can’t imagine that people have to audacity to think this is something that ought to be foisted on the unwilling as a matter of course. I think it really hit home for me when I was going to have to make an international trip and my OB warned me to wear compression hose “to prevent blood clots” and get up and walk around every hour. To which my mental response was, “Whoa, I guess this is serious. And I just thought I was kinda sleepy and getting rounder.” (No really, I did read up on all the symptoms and risks but it doesn’t really hit you until you have it come into conflict with your life).

    And I haven’t even hit the third trimester yet.

    Honestly I am so grateful for the wealth of “protect yourself” messages that came in the wake of AIDS when I was coming of age. Thorough sex ed probably helped me to make it to the ripe old age of 32 with a first-ever, wanted pregnancy. Reproductive rights are a thorough system – from reality-based sex education to abortion rights. Take away one part, and see the other part start to look fucked up as well.

  26. zuzu
    May 23, 2007 at 10:36 am

    I’m pro choice.
    I think more women need to either CHOOSE keep the party in thier pants or CHOOSE to get their tubes tied instead of using abortion as some form of birth control.

    1) Two to tango.

    2) Oh, please show the evidence of women using abortions as primary birth control.

  27. May 23, 2007 at 10:46 am

    CHOOSE to get their tubes tied

    Would be great if that were foolproof, too, huh?

    Even a hysterectomy isn’t foolproof.

    I continue to be amused (and astonished) by this view that pregnancy should be a punishment for perceived irresponsiblity. My partner and I use three forms of birth control, but if I still somehow beat the odds and become pregnant, I should have no choice but to carry to term because… I’m irresponsible?

  28. May 23, 2007 at 10:48 am

    Oh, please show the evidence of women using abortions as primary birth control.

    And you know what? Fuck the idea that there would be a problem if it was used that way (which of course it isn’t). Abortion is birth control. Granted, it’s one of the more invasive and potentially dangerous forms of it, but you are controlling whether or not you will be carrying a baby to term. I guess gf has a problem with the “control” part, since women should never be in control of their own bodies, nossir! Why, it’d be like she was some type of professional assassin clone thing!

    So please, garnetfury, can the animated tv show philosophy and actually think.

  29. Anatolia
    May 23, 2007 at 11:57 am

    [quote]I think more women need to either CHOOSE keep the party in thier pants or CHOOSE to get their tubes tied instead of using abortion as some form of birth control.[/quote]

    But do you think more men should choose to have a vasectomy rather than be irresponsible and fail to control their sperm? No woman will ever get pregnant without her consent if a man is responsible and controls his sperm, so what’s the real issue here?

  30. Kristen
    May 23, 2007 at 12:29 pm

    I think more women need to either CHOOSE keep the party in thier pants or CHOOSE to get their tubes tied instead of using abortion as some form of birth control.

    And as I think this blog has made clear numerous times in the past few days. Women often don’t have the option of either. At least 1 in 6 women are the victims of sexual assault and most doctors in North America will not tie the tubes of a woman under the age of 35 unless she has had children.

  31. garnetfury
    May 23, 2007 at 4:59 pm

    I think if they are sexually assaulted it’s okay, but I really don’t believe in statistics, they are just another paridigm that is useless. Most of the women I know have used it for casual birth control however, and seeing the mental guilt, anguish and damage that the procedure had caused them, I would just consider the procedure more or less a mechanical institutionalized form of sexual assualt.

    This is judging from my own experience rather than statistics. I believe that the sad but true fact is that YOU can do whatever you want to yr own body, BUT everyone else can do what they want with yr body by that logic as well. Not counting the fetus. That isn’t yr body, but rather the fetuses body. And I do realize that it take two to tango, but it’s “the woman’s body, her choice.” lol.

  32. zuzu
    May 23, 2007 at 5:02 pm

    I think if they are sexually assaulted it’s okay,

    Your true colors come through.

    It’s those sluts who ENJOY it who should be punished with babies!

  33. May 23, 2007 at 5:08 pm

    by that logic

    There was logic in there?

    lol.

    …yeah.

  34. Kristen
    May 23, 2007 at 5:15 pm

    I really don’t believe in statistics.

    Ah….so you only believe in anecdotal evidence…from people you’ve met. Well, may I suggest you volunteer at planned parenthood (in a clerical position) this summer so that you can get a better sample of what type of woman seeks an abortion.

  35. kali
    May 23, 2007 at 5:16 pm

    Most of the women I know have used it for casual birth control however, and seeing the mental guilt, anguish and damage that the procedure had caused them, I would just consider the procedure more or less a mechanical institutionalized form of sexual assualt.

    You frankly aren’t very believable here. While no doubt there are some women who use abortion as “casual brth control” (its a big old world) and some women who feel great remorse and anguish after the procedure, I imagine the intersection of those sets has got to be pretty small. The number of women who fell into both those categories AND told all about their abortions to an anti-choice slut-shamer like yourself… you’re expecting anyone to believe this number is not only nonzero, but PLURAL?

    You’re either a Catholic priest, or a liar. And you’re not a Catholic priest.

  36. MikeEss
    May 23, 2007 at 5:31 pm

    “I really don’t believe in statistics.”

    Fortunately, statistics DO believe in you…

  37. May 23, 2007 at 5:41 pm

    I have to go to bed I think because I’m finding it really funny that someone could use the words “mechanical institutionalized” and “lol” in the same post. Good night.

  38. May 23, 2007 at 6:51 pm

    That isn’t yr body, but rather the fetuses body.

    Cool, so take that puppy outta there and voila! Instant person, amiright! Pregnancy, after all, being a three-count and BOOM we gotta baby!

    Oh, you mean there’s a process involved? Good lord, a gestation period? Holy shit, where the woman has to act as life support for another human?! Well, I think it’s clear cut, that fetus has no right to feed off another person, just like every other human being in existence.

    Case closed, right?

  39. preying mantis
    May 23, 2007 at 8:09 pm

    “Most of the women I know have used it for casual birth control however, and seeing the mental guilt, anguish and damage that the procedure had caused them, I would just consider the procedure more or less a mechanical institutionalized form of sexual assualt.”

    Wow, that’s weird. My support for abortion being used as casual birth control stems from all the women I’ve met who’ve used it that way and were thrilled to itty bitty pieces by the experience. Maybe if your anecdata-women’s doctors had given them lollipops and decorated their aftercare sheets with those little gold foil star stickers, you’d consider the procedure life’s way of making up for the fact that nobody ever gets the pony they wanted as a kid.

    “I believe that the sad but true fact is that YOU can do whatever you want to yr own body, BUT everyone else can do what they want with yr body by that logic as well.”

    Please walk me through the steps that got you from logical ol’ Point A to logical ol’ Point B, if you’d be so kind. I’m really not seeing the connection, myself.

  40. garnetfury
    May 24, 2007 at 2:31 pm

    Because pro choice is pro choice, even when it doen’t involve you getting an abortion, your body or even your convenience. If you take away the facade like spectacle of laws any asshole on the street can use his body to assault you. His body, his choice, right? Who are you to make his descisions for him? See where I am going? It can go both ways. Why should morals only be there for you when you don’t want to get raped, but not there when you want to dispose of a fetus? Some asshole could sit around and justify the fact that women are as useless and disposable as you have done so with the fetus. They have and they will, and the fake “laws” won’t stop them. It’s all the same.

    As far as statistics go, they are just made by a special group of people who have the specific duty of influencing public thought.
    They mean nothing, unless they are usful to someone’s argument. All of the fear mongering statistical data ads just help the problem culturally along.

  41. garnetfury
    May 24, 2007 at 2:40 pm

    Don’t get me wrong though, I think abortion is okay for whoever wants to do it, I just personally wouldn’t is all.
    I would be happier if people just admitted the truth, that they are lazy sods who live in a culture that hands them half-assed quick fixes to thier problems that arise due to lack of personal discipline. Our culture enables them to be lazy and not take responsibility for thier own reckless, thoughtless actions.

    It’s not just abortion that offers a quick fix, but big pharma too.

  42. zuzu
    May 24, 2007 at 2:40 pm

    Because pro choice is pro choice, even when it doen’t involve you getting an abortion, your body or even your convenience. If you take away the facade like spectacle of laws any asshole on the street can use his body to assault you. His body, his choice, right? Who are you to make his descisions for him?

    Christ, you’re an idiot.

    You came here during the Spiderman thing, right?

  43. May 24, 2007 at 2:45 pm

    His body, his choice, right? Who are you to make his descisions for him?

    Your fist and its right to exist ends at my face, ass. Just like a fetus’ rights end where a woman’s begins, meaning the fetus does not have the right to use a woman as life support. It’s not actually that difficult.

  44. garnetfury
    May 24, 2007 at 2:47 pm

    Tell me how that is wrong instead of calling me an idiot.

  45. Roy
    May 24, 2007 at 2:47 pm

    If you take away the facade like spectacle of laws any asshole on the street can use his body to assault you. His body, his choice, right? Who are you to make his descisions for him? See where I am going?

    Into the magical land of idiotic comparisons and offensive non sequiturs? The la-la land of apples and oranges?

    Some asshole could sit around and justify the fact that women are as useless and disposable as you have done so with the fetus.

    Well, you’re certainly trying, but you’re not doing a very good job.

    Heeeeeyooooo!

  46. garnetfury
    May 24, 2007 at 2:50 pm

    Actually jack, I think you are putting the fetus in the position of a parasite, biologically. If you want to get all scientific that elimanates yr argument cause fetuses aren’t considered parasites. Hitler thought honestly that every jew in europe was a parasite, I guess that made what he did okay? And no my fist has every right to exist past yr face if I justify it myself to be so.

  47. Roy
    May 24, 2007 at 2:50 pm

    Tell me how that is wrong instead of calling me an idiot.

    If you can’t see the difference between:

    1. Entity A is attached to and growing inside of entity B, which is something that entity B doesn’t like. Entity B has entity A removed, which kills entity A.

    and

    2. Entity A and entity B are completely seperate entities. Entity B forces itself on entity A and rapes entity B

    then… well… if the shoe fits, right?

    They’re completely different situations, and it takes a special type of illogic to conflate the two.

  48. May 24, 2007 at 2:51 pm

    Tell me how that is wrong instead of calling me an idiot.

    Just did, ass.

  49. May 24, 2007 at 2:52 pm

    Hitler thought honestly that every jew in europe was a parasite, I guess that made what he did okay?

    Awesome Godwinning, bucko.

  50. Roy
    May 24, 2007 at 2:52 pm

    Er. rape A, obviously.

  51. garnetfury
    May 24, 2007 at 2:53 pm

    Sure I’m doing a good job roy.

  52. Roy
    May 24, 2007 at 2:54 pm

    Godwin for the win! Huzzah!
    I’m gonna go find a goat now.

  53. zuzu
    May 24, 2007 at 2:54 pm

    Actually jack, I think you are putting the fetus in the position of a parasite, biologically. If you want to get all scientific that elimanates yr argument cause fetuses aren’t considered parasites.

    I should ban you just for your use of “yr.” That, and the Godwin’s violations.

    And the tiresomeness.

    And the lack of originality.

  54. garnetfury
    May 24, 2007 at 3:01 pm

    Yeah, you all come up with nothing that convinces me. You only want morals when they are convenient with you.

    In response to zuzu:
    Sure they are both situations that are logically comparable.
    Entity A decides that he or she wants to reduce entity B to uselessness and thus uses thier free will to do any harm to entity B that he can justify their crazy head for thier own laziness, lack of discipline and convenience.

    You folks have gotten a bit too comfy nestled in yr paradigm if you ask me.

  55. bluestockingsrs
    May 24, 2007 at 3:04 pm

    Into the magical land of idiotic comparisons and offensive non sequiturs? The la-la land of apples and oranges?

    Brilliant. Made me laugh out loud, and I needed that.

  56. zuzu
    May 24, 2007 at 3:07 pm

    Tired now. Banned.

  57. bluestockingsrs
    May 24, 2007 at 3:13 pm

    And Zuzu wins with the Willow quote and well-timed banning.

    Go, sis!

  58. mk
    May 24, 2007 at 3:14 pm

    And you, gf, seem to ignore the context of abortion in this country beyond your own anecdata. I, too, wish for a world where ‘abortion for convenience’–a phrase you didn’t use, but nonetheless seems to characterize your examples–didn’t exist. But that doesn’t mean I’m ready to parse the debate into ‘legitimate’ and ‘illegitimate’ grounds for abortion, because I don’t presume to know the motives or circumstances of women who ultimately make an extremely difficult choice.

    I have morals, and I apply them pretty consistently: pro-choice, anti-capital punishment, pro-sex-positive education, anti-war (at least the ones I’ve seen this country fight while I’ve been alive- it’s entirely possible I would’ve supported, say, the American Revolution, or the Civil War)…

    Your characterization of abortion as motivated by “laziness, lack of discipline and convenience” is insensitive and ignorant. I don’t doubt that the women you described before are real–who am I to presume you’re lying?–but you nonetheless presume these women are representative of all women who have abortions. They are not.

  59. May 24, 2007 at 3:18 pm

    You folks have gotten a bit too comfy nestled in yr paradigm if you ask me.

    Our paradigm that women are humans, not walking uteri? OH NOES!

  60. Roy
    May 24, 2007 at 3:34 pm

    I’ve been looking for a comfy paradigm for a while now. Where did you find yours? Maybe I can go pick one up when I get rid of this goat.

  61. mk
    May 24, 2007 at 3:37 pm

    I got mine at IKEA. BiMart prices but more solid construction. And, like a box of Legos, came with some extra pieces. Extremely comfy, though.

  62. Linnaeus
    May 24, 2007 at 4:02 pm

    I’ve been looking for a comfy paradigm for a while now. Where did you find yours?

    Paradigm shifts take a while. Just ask Thomas Kuhn. Well, read him, since he’s dead.

  63. evil fizz
    May 24, 2007 at 4:07 pm

    I’ve been looking for a comfy paradigm for a while now. Where did you find yours?

    Someday, I will find the Dilbert strip where the dialog is “What was that?” “The sound of a paradigm shifting gears without a clutch.”

  64. red_thyroid_sun
    May 26, 2007 at 2:04 am

    Yeah, abortion in it’s current form is silly.
    You all think you are so intelligent, but yet you fail to see things that are so simple.

    Before our oh so lovely culture that was born out of genocide,
    and CONTINUES to exist to this very day just so psuedo-intellectual bigots like yourselves can disseminate the latest propaganda; there was once an entirely different culture!!!???

    Native american women performed birth control for centuries using the most non-toxic of natural herbs. They had little side effects and they didn’t poison the water supply with all of the crap that is making men fertile. They also worked. That’s what I call intelligent!

    Plus you didn’t have to have mechanical claw violate your sactum sanctorum and break a fetus in half to be shortly sucked out by a vacuum…come on people, wake up. If you really care about feminism so much, look past your own single mindedness, that’s all I ask.

    I’m not trying to offend you, I’m just merely stating that there are better options to be found that were evidently found by a primitive race of people with no technology and no delusions of intellectual superiority. Our culture is twisted and it will fall. We all have it coming to us too.

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