<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: In Which He, Fatefully, Returns to Gender.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/09/4998/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/09/4998/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 03:57:02 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	
	<item>
		<title>By: slythwolf</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/09/4998/#comment-109331</link>
		<dc:creator>slythwolf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:21:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/04/4998/#comment-109331</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;(do you have corroboration for this story? sounds a little urban mythic to me.)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Off the top of my head, I&#039;m pretty sure it&#039;s from &lt;i&gt;Kiss My Tiara&lt;/i&gt; by Susan Jane Gilman. It was in &lt;i&gt;a&lt;/i&gt; book, that&#039;s certain, if not that one.

By the way, what kind of sex ed program does your local preschool have? In my school district they don&#039;t start that kind of thing until fourth grade. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>(do you have corroboration for this story? sounds a little urban mythic to me.)</p></blockquote>
<p>Off the top of my head, I&#8217;m pretty sure it&#8217;s from <i>Kiss My Tiara</i> by Susan Jane Gilman. It was in <i>a</i> book, that&#8217;s certain, if not that one.</p>
<p>By the way, what kind of sex ed program does your local preschool have? In my school district they don&#8217;t start that kind of thing until fourth grade.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: SnowdropExplodes</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/09/4998/#comment-109310</link>
		<dc:creator>SnowdropExplodes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:22:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/04/4998/#comment-109310</guid>
		<description>I agree with SoE on this - and, if you don&#039;t learn it, I am sure your kids will be able to find someone to teach them (often a peer).   Many things I learned as a young boy of &quot;traditionally male pastimes&quot; I learned from other young people or other adults.   I also wasn&#039;t too fussy which gender roles I learned about: I learned to plait hair from my younger sister, because she wanted me to play &quot;mother&quot; for her when mother was out at work (as the main breadwinner in the family, incidentally).

If your kids want to be traditionally gendered, they won&#039;t need you, personally, to teach them the tricks of the trade; it&#039;s your job to make them secure in their choices, and to keep an eye on them that they don&#039;t end up being &lt;em&gt;forced&lt;/em&gt; into those roles.

Oh, and, one of my favourite sorts of memories from early childhood is when I learned something from someone else, and was able to &quot;teach&quot; (more probably &quot;show&quot;) it to mum or (more particularly) dad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with SoE on this &#8211; and, if you don&#8217;t learn it, I am sure your kids will be able to find someone to teach them (often a peer).   Many things I learned as a young boy of &#8220;traditionally male pastimes&#8221; I learned from other young people or other adults.   I also wasn&#8217;t too fussy which gender roles I learned about: I learned to plait hair from my younger sister, because she wanted me to play &#8220;mother&#8221; for her when mother was out at work (as the main breadwinner in the family, incidentally).</p>
<p>If your kids want to be traditionally gendered, they won&#8217;t need you, personally, to teach them the tricks of the trade; it&#8217;s your job to make them secure in their choices, and to keep an eye on them that they don&#8217;t end up being <em>forced</em> into those roles.</p>
<p>Oh, and, one of my favourite sorts of memories from early childhood is when I learned something from someone else, and was able to &#8220;teach&#8221; (more probably &#8220;show&#8221;) it to mum or (more particularly) dad.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: SoE</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/09/4998/#comment-109300</link>
		<dc:creator>SoE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 09:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/04/4998/#comment-109300</guid>
		<description>So where exactly is your problem? If your wife doesn&#039;t know how to braid hair maybe you can just go to a hairdresser and have it explained to you. And in case both your turkey recipes suck why not learn it from your neighbors who also make the best cupcakes in the world?

I mean there is no way you and your partner will know about all the stuff the kids are going to come up with. But that&#039;s one of the fun parts of parenting, always learning new things, isn&#039;t it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So where exactly is your problem? If your wife doesn&#8217;t know how to braid hair maybe you can just go to a hairdresser and have it explained to you. And in case both your turkey recipes suck why not learn it from your neighbors who also make the best cupcakes in the world?</p>
<p>I mean there is no way you and your partner will know about all the stuff the kids are going to come up with. But that&#8217;s one of the fun parts of parenting, always learning new things, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: j</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/09/4998/#comment-109282</link>
		<dc:creator>j</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 03:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/04/4998/#comment-109282</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I admit to a certain nostalgia for parenting images in my head - the games of dress-up, the playing with make-up, the braiding of hair, those Tonka trucks and little faces covered in shaving cream with pretend-beards. I am skeptical of this nostalgia, and attracted to it. Perhaps there is a reason for parents to know how to do certain things, to be able to teach these things - with the proper, problematized, distance. Perhaps there is a reason for me to want a partner who can do the “girl things” that I cannot do.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

When I read this, my translator turns it into something like this:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I admit I&#039;ve been brainwashed by the patriarchy as much as anyone. [blah blah blah examples of patriarchal bullshit] Somewhere inside, a voice tells me that my concepts of gender and gendered activities are all a result of patriarchal indoctrination, but I am still attracted to my well established schemas. I can&#039;t imagine that my concepts of gender are completely arbitrary, so I say perhaps there is a &lt;i&gt;reason&lt;/i&gt; for me to teach my kids how to apply makeup, and perhaps there is a &lt;i&gt;reason&lt;/i&gt; my future wife must know how to be feminine in case I do not sufficiently cover this aspect of my children&#039;s upbringing. I need a wife who has ample practice in capitulating to the patriarchy so that she can teach my children the nuts and bolts of femininity.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Am I being too strident? Tell me if I&#039;m being too strident.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I admit to a certain nostalgia for parenting images in my head &#8211; the games of dress-up, the playing with make-up, the braiding of hair, those Tonka trucks and little faces covered in shaving cream with pretend-beards. I am skeptical of this nostalgia, and attracted to it. Perhaps there is a reason for parents to know how to do certain things, to be able to teach these things &#8211; with the proper, problematized, distance. Perhaps there is a reason for me to want a partner who can do the “girl things” that I cannot do.</p></blockquote>
<p>When I read this, my translator turns it into something like this:</p>
<blockquote><p>I admit I&#8217;ve been brainwashed by the patriarchy as much as anyone. [blah blah blah examples of patriarchal bullshit] Somewhere inside, a voice tells me that my concepts of gender and gendered activities are all a result of patriarchal indoctrination, but I am still attracted to my well established schemas. I can&#8217;t imagine that my concepts of gender are completely arbitrary, so I say perhaps there is a <i>reason</i> for me to teach my kids how to apply makeup, and perhaps there is a <i>reason</i> my future wife must know how to be feminine in case I do not sufficiently cover this aspect of my children&#8217;s upbringing. I need a wife who has ample practice in capitulating to the patriarchy so that she can teach my children the nuts and bolts of femininity.</p></blockquote>
<p>Am I being too strident? Tell me if I&#8217;m being too strident.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Lesbia's Sparrow</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/09/4998/#comment-109281</link>
		<dc:creator>Lesbia's Sparrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 03:49:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/04/4998/#comment-109281</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Thinking of the person you will choose to spend the rest of your life with as the role “future mother of my children”–conduit to offspring–is misogynist.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t think that&#039;s fair. Thinking of someone &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; as a conduit to offspring is misogynist, but if you know that you want to have children, I don&#039;t think it&#039;s a problem to consider how your significant other would be as a parent. If I knew I wanted to have children, I would not marry someone I thought would be a bad parent, regardless of how much I loved him or her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Thinking of the person you will choose to spend the rest of your life with as the role “future mother of my children”–conduit to offspring–is misogynist.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s fair. Thinking of someone <i>only</i> as a conduit to offspring is misogynist, but if you know that you want to have children, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s a problem to consider how your significant other would be as a parent. If I knew I wanted to have children, I would not marry someone I thought would be a bad parent, regardless of how much I loved him or her.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Frumious B</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/09/4998/#comment-109273</link>
		<dc:creator>Frumious B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/04/4998/#comment-109273</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The other little boy said, “That doesn’t mean anything. Everyone has a penis, but only girls wear barrettes.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Sounds like someone needs to get with the sex ed program.

(do you have corroboration for this story?  sounds a little urban mythic to me.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The other little boy said, “That doesn’t mean anything. Everyone has a penis, but only girls wear barrettes.”</p></blockquote>
<p>Sounds like someone needs to get with the sex ed program.</p>
<p>(do you have corroboration for this story?  sounds a little urban mythic to me.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sailorman</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/09/4998/#comment-109267</link>
		<dc:creator>Sailorman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jun 2007 01:03:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/04/4998/#comment-109267</guid>
		<description>For some reason this post sounds like Cary Tennis, at least to me.  But it makes a lot more sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For some reason this post sounds like Cary Tennis, at least to me.  But it makes a lot more sense.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: slythwolf</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/09/4998/#comment-109258</link>
		<dc:creator>slythwolf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 23:24:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/04/4998/#comment-109258</guid>
		<description>Also, a few thoughts:

Little boys play dress up. They even play dress up in mommy&#039;s clothes. They like pretty things until traditional cultural norms force it out of them.

Growing up in rural Michigan, I knew exactly two other little girls who knew how to braid hair. Neither of them knew how to braid their own hair; they could only braid the hair of others.

I remember reading a story somewhere about a little boy who went to preschool with barrettes in his hair because he liked them. One of the other little boys called him a girl and was so insistent that the be-barretted boy pulled down his pants to prove that he was male. The other little boy said, &quot;That doesn&#039;t mean anything. Everyone has a penis, but only girls wear barrettes.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, a few thoughts:</p>
<p>Little boys play dress up. They even play dress up in mommy&#8217;s clothes. They like pretty things until traditional cultural norms force it out of them.</p>
<p>Growing up in rural Michigan, I knew exactly two other little girls who knew how to braid hair. Neither of them knew how to braid their own hair; they could only braid the hair of others.</p>
<p>I remember reading a story somewhere about a little boy who went to preschool with barrettes in his hair because he liked them. One of the other little boys called him a girl and was so insistent that the be-barretted boy pulled down his pants to prove that he was male. The other little boy said, &#8220;That doesn&#8217;t mean anything. Everyone has a penis, but only girls wear barrettes.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: slythwolf</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/09/4998/#comment-109256</link>
		<dc:creator>slythwolf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 22:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/04/4998/#comment-109256</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Perhaps there is a reason for me to want a partner who can do the “girl things” that I cannot do.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s, frankly, bullshit. You can learn to do them. Suck it up.

Honestly, the fact that you place this knowledge of the performance of femininity on your list of criteria for a future mate is misogynist in itself. Thinking of the person you will choose to spend the rest of your life with as the role &quot;future mother of my children&quot;--conduit to offspring--is misogynist. A way to think about it that values women as people would be more along the lines of &quot;I will choose to spend my life with and parent with someone I love and can get along with.&quot;

The reason you have these little nostalgic fantasies about helping small children perform traditional gender is because you have been brainwashed by the patriarchy. If traditional gender had, as you suggest it might, any objective merit the feminist movement wouldn&#039;t be working to tear it down.

And as others have said, if you think there exist women who don&#039;t know how to perform femininity you are grossly mistaken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Perhaps there is a reason for me to want a partner who can do the “girl things” that I cannot do.</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s, frankly, bullshit. You can learn to do them. Suck it up.</p>
<p>Honestly, the fact that you place this knowledge of the performance of femininity on your list of criteria for a future mate is misogynist in itself. Thinking of the person you will choose to spend the rest of your life with as the role &#8220;future mother of my children&#8221;&#8211;conduit to offspring&#8211;is misogynist. A way to think about it that values women as people would be more along the lines of &#8220;I will choose to spend my life with and parent with someone I love and can get along with.&#8221;</p>
<p>The reason you have these little nostalgic fantasies about helping small children perform traditional gender is because you have been brainwashed by the patriarchy. If traditional gender had, as you suggest it might, any objective merit the feminist movement wouldn&#8217;t be working to tear it down.</p>
<p>And as others have said, if you think there exist women who don&#8217;t know how to perform femininity you are grossly mistaken.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: debbie</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/09/4998/#comment-109230</link>
		<dc:creator>debbie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 19:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/06/04/4998/#comment-109230</guid>
		<description>To clarify, only because I think your referring to my comment here:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Some commenters believed that my writing intentionally obscured my thoughts because of my insecure ignorance of gender theory. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

My point was that not knowing any gender theory and trying to discuss gender issues in a feminist context resulted in some very difficult to understand writing.   Not that your lack of knowledge was related to you being insecure.  My apologies if you weren&#039;t talking about me or I&#039;ve misinterpreted.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To clarify, only because I think your referring to my comment here:</p>
<blockquote><p>Some commenters believed that my writing intentionally obscured my thoughts because of my insecure ignorance of gender theory. </p></blockquote>
<p>My point was that not knowing any gender theory and trying to discuss gender issues in a feminist context resulted in some very difficult to understand writing.   Not that your lack of knowledge was related to you being insecure.  My apologies if you weren&#8217;t talking about me or I&#8217;ve misinterpreted.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Minified using disk: basic
Page Caching using disk: basic
Database Caching 15/21 queries in 0.026 seconds using disk: basic

Served from: www.feministe.us @ 2012-02-09 23:00:07 -->
