Cartoon by Mike Luckovich of the Atlanta Constitution
Three “pro-life” organizations are honoring Paul Hill, a man who murdered an abortion prover and a clinic escort. The event will include “activities at our two remaining killing centers” and a “reenactment of 7-29-1994.” Yes, Hill was an extremist — but it’s worth heeding his own words in recognizing just how mainstream anti-choice extremism has become:
“Coming out here in front of the clinic used to be considered outrageous,” Hill says as the cars go in and out of the clinic’s parking lot. “Now it’s old hat. Rescue used to be outrageous. Now it’s old. The next thing will be the use of force. Right now it’s the focus of a lot of attention, but pretty soon it will be old hat and we’ll wonder why we didn’t think of it sooner.”
UPDATE: One of the men behind the murder celebration apparently coaches a whole team of young kids who run cross-country. Thanks to crack researcher Julian for sending this on.
UPDATE TWO: Julian points out that “these organizations appear to be digital pufferfish: A couple of dudes creating a welter of websites in order to give the appearance of some sort of larger ‘movement’.”
That’s certainly a good thing, and I would like to think that the extremist arm of the “pro-life” movement only consisted of two or three dudes. But while the mainstream movement claims to be non-violent (I suppose the deaths and injuries caused by anti-choice laws worldwide don’t count), they have deep ties to the extremists — and, as the Hill quote above points out, the definition of “extreme” is shifting, and what used to be considered pro-life extremism (picketing clinics, accosting women) is now mainstream.
Just how deep do those ties run? How mainstream is the violent arm of the anti-choice movement? Very.
“Three pro-life organizations?” Looks more like three websites run by two people. Hardly “mainstream” support.
As far as I can tell, they claim to be three distinct entities. Even if they are run by two people, the “three pro-life organizations” is a stake they claimed for themselves, I didn’t make it up. If you have a problem with it, I’d take it up with them.
Organizations generally have members, boards of directors, bylaws, meetings, bank accounts, official tax or other state filing status, etc. These three entities do not. Nor does any one of them even purport to be an organization. That word does not appear on any of the websites, and they are dot coms, not dot orgs. You run a website, too, and occasionally announce rallies and other events, but that hardly makes you an organization.
I took it up with you because the title and text of your post makes the affirmative claim that they are organizations. Even if they did identity as organizations, it would be misleading to repeat the claim when the evidence weighs so heavily against it. They could as easily characterize themselves as major corporations, charitable foundations or even sovereign nations, but it would be irresponsible rely on those self-descriptions to create the impression that their views were representative or mainstream. It would be no different than relying on the man in the post’s accompanying cartoon to prove that the pro-life movement is violent as a whole. Although he self-identifies as pro-life and threatens violence, he’s no more real than the alleged “organizations,” and certainly not representative of the movement, which is non-violent and supported by more women than men. I could similarly claim that each word of this comment was a “pro-choice organization,” make some wild claims and then state that “a coalition of 200 pro-choice organizations supports cannibalism,” but plainly it would be unfair for anyone to republish that assertion uncritically.
I now see this morning that your researcher has concluded that “these ‘organizations’ appear to be digital pufferfish . . . [a] couple of dudes creating a welter of websites in order to give the appearance of some sort of larger “movement” and that “it may be worth bearing in mind that what we’re probably ultimately talking about here is one sad, disturbed little man.” Unfortunately this has not stopped, as he also point outs, numerous bloggers (including yourself and Feministing) from suggesting that the Paul Hill Memorial is mainstream pro-life event with broadbased organizational support.
Most of the organizations I’m a part of don’t have any of those things, except for members. And do these groups actually have no members? It’s just one single guy? Somehow I doubt that.
You may not like the post, but they are organizations, no matter how fringe or small. An organization is just a group of people who work together for something. That’s what these dudes do. And yes, they are fringe wackos — but they’re claiming to represent you, not me, so if you have a problem with that, I would again suggest that you take it up with them.
You argue that these views aren’t “mainstream” in the pro-life movement. Well, yeah, read the quote — what it emphasizes is that actions like Hill’s are currently considered “extremist,” but not so long ago clinic protests and rescues were considered extreminist. In other words, extremism is becoming mainstreamed. Nowhere in the post did I say that “the Paul Hill Memorial is mainstream pro-life event with broadbased organizational support.” I even classified Hill as an extremist, and simply pointed out that once-extreme pro-life actions are now the norm.
Thanks, RA, you just gave me a good hearty laugh.
You know, I was over at the Feministing thread about this, and the whining from the pro-forced-birth crowd was well-nigh deafening.
“Wah! Wah! You lying lefties are using this guy to make us look bad! No fai-airrrr!”
Wrong. Paul Hill and his supporters, and your own silence, are making you look bad. When someone does something that we disapprove of – that couple that tried to force their daughter to have an abortion, for example – we come out loudly and publicly and say: this is not what we’re about, and this is why.
If you don’t want to be associated with Paul Hill, come out loudly and publicly and denounce both him and his methods. Staying silent and quietly benefiting from the intimidation he and his ilk wield against abortion providers, reproductive-health clinics, and the women who use both, then muttering “Hey, don’t lump me in with him” when he becomes embarassing (if then) impresses no one.
Seraph, the prolife movement HAS publically denounced Paul Hill.
http://www.artl.org/about_violence.html
http://www.aaplog.org/newsviol.htm
http://www.gargaro.com/femreward.html
http://lifepeace.tripod.com/list.html
http://www.gargaro.com/quotes.html
http://www.compleatheretic.com/pubs/letters/981011.html
I’d go on, but I think you get the point.
One more thing, here’s an article that talks about various pro-life organizations’ denouncement of clinic violence.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_n27_v111/ai_15805783
This exposes the real motive behind the so-called “Pro-Life” crowd. It has nothing to do about protecting life and everything to do with stigmatizing women who don’t accept the religious right’s belief that a woman’s true purpose can only achieved through the submission of her womb to God’s grand design.
So, let me get this straight:
If a few fringe “pro-life” groups support murderers like Paul Hill (and Eric Rudolph, and James Kopp), that proves that they’re not the mainstream of the forced birth movement.
But if a few fringe Islamist groups support murderers like Osama bin Laden, that proves that they are the mainstream of Muslim thought no matter how many other Muslim groups denounce them.
Sorry, but you’ve got to pick one or the other.
Bobby, I think this shows the deranged actions of those who twist scripture to allow them to commit crime.
Just as suicide bombers do not represent Muslims, Anti-Abortion (they sure aren’t “pro-life”) bombers/shooters do not represent the pro-life movement.
My main concern with this man’s “reinactment” is the safety of the clinic workers. I agree that everyone, pro-life or pro-choice should stand against this man and any of his supporters.
Mnemosyne, it looks like were thinking along the same lines.
I think that terrorists claiming to act for a movement serve only to damage the movement as a whole. I think it would be in everyone’s best interest for us all to stand against these people. I’m thankful that the majority of the pro-life movement agrees with me on this issue. It is frightening that there are still people who support these murderers.
This is scary!! These people are not representative of the pro-life movement…they are murderers! They are sickos and they do not respect life. Please do not misrepresent our beliefs, and try to take some wackos opinions as the mainstream beliefs…no true pro-life organization would EVER this type of violence towards human beings!
I can only hope that these people will not hurt anyone.
Sorry, that should have read: “no true pro-life organization would EVER condone this type of violence towards human beings!”
Somewhat. But I think your side has a lot further to go than you think since you have mainstream figures like Cardinal O’Connor saying that the problem is the politicization of the murders, not the murders themselves.
Hmm.
Lauren, your point is made. However, I must confess myself still unimpressed – “We’ll post their names and faces on the internet with their home addresses and phone numbers, we’ll accuse them of murdering babies, but please! No violence! You’re hurting the movement!”
The anti-choice movement has benefited far too much from intimidation tactics for me to take even the most vehement denunciation with anything less than an entire salt shaker.
By the way, speaking of scripture, what do you make of Exodus 21:22-25?
Seraph (on Exodus 21:22-25):
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5700
Jill, perhaps I missed something in my admittedly cursory reading of the Daily Kos piece, but I fail to see how Dr. Dobson attending a rally about a biblical statue supposes his support for clinic violence. Sen. Obama attended an AIDS conference hosted by Rick Warren. Should we assume that he supports Warren’s other beliefs?
Again, it is possible that I missed something, but I don’t see how shared interests in one area equal support in another.
Mnem-Cardinal O’Connor is right that we (the larger pro-life movement) have been tied to the murders and I hope that he realizes that those ties are the result of the murderer and not the media. In the context of the election I can see why he would want to distance his movement from the murders. I would have to see the larger context of the speech to see if he was lying blame where it belonged (on the murderer) or merely on the opposition’s response. If it is the latter (as it seems) his remarks were shameful.
Seraph, I believe those posting the photo’s, addresses, ect. were the ones who later supported (if not perpetrated) the violence. If I remember correctly, they are an Army of God “outreach”
As for Ex. 21, to analyze I need to look into the Hebrew a bit.
The best review I’ve found is. here
Translation, in this instance, changes the entire meaning. Essentially-
“When men strive together and they hurt unintentionally
a woman with child, and her children come forth but no mis-
chief happens–that is, the woman and the children do not
die–the one who hurts her shall surely be punished by a fine.
But if any mischief happens, that is, if the woman dies or the
children, then you shall give life for life.3″
I’m with you Seraph, the rest of the forced-pregnancy crowd have a LONG way to go before the evern remotely distance themselves from these monsters.
It may be a step from protesting abortion clinics to killing doctors, but it IS only a step, and protesting in the first place provides a spot from which to TAKE that step.
Honestly, the forced-pregnancy crowd (“pro-life” *snort*) doesn’t have ground to stand on.
Quoted from Sarah
“It may be a step from protesting abortion clinics to killing doctors, but it IS only a step, and protesting in the first place provides a spot from which to TAKE that step.”
I find this quote to be incredably distasteful. Protesting non violentely should never be linked to violence. This same logic is what the Bush administration uses. What do you think of the following sentence:
“It may be a step from protesting President Bush to assassinating the President, but it IS only a step, and protesting in the first place provides a spot from which to TAKE that step.”
Mike -
the thing is, the protestors outside abortion clinics don’t just protest. They harrass women, they yell, they insult, they outright lie, and they do everything they can to tempt you to pull out your cell and begin dialing the police.
There’s protesting, and then there is what anti-abortion protestors do, and that’s harrassment. Again I stand by the one small step thing.
Sarah, Maybe you could go to a clinic and take your video camera with you so you could show us this yelling and insulting you speak of. I’d like to see someone actually prove this claim that I hear time and time again, with no evidence.
Maybe you meant something like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKe14jtpbbY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fabortionviolence%2Ecom%2Fpro%2Dlifer%5Fattacked%2Ehtml
Hmmm… why in the world would pro-choicers be opposed to taking a video camera to an abortion clinic?
The right to privacy, maybe? The fact that anti-choice extremists have videotaped and photographed women walking into abortion clinics and posted the videos and photos online?
Stop by your neighborhood clinic one day, Bethany, and check it out. I haven’t videotaped it, but I’ve seen it.
And you want evidence? Try this. It’s not a video, and yelling protesters seem to be the least of problems, but I think it sums up anti-choice violence quite nicely.
Bethany, it’s been a long time since I did clinic defense, but back in the day the upstate New York Operation Rescue folks used to shout “mommy don’t kill me!” at the top of their lungs at any woman they saw heading toward the entrance.
This was after they’d locked themselves to each other with bike locks, of course, so that they couldn’t be removed from the property without a huge amount of rigamarole and delay.
And you’ll note from the statistics that almost 40,000 arrests have been made as a result of attacks on abortion clinics since 1977.
But yes, you have a YouTube video of one individual on the street pushing a pro-lifer down, taking her sign and yelling. Trump card!
Sarah, I know that my experiene is isolated to Dallas, but I’ve been on the sidewalk outside a clinic and there were no graphic signs or angry protestors. Only a few ladies praying and handing out papers for the cpc next door. The only sign was one that said “We can Help”.
I realize that every location is different, but yelling and cussing are not universal.
Brooklynite -
Yeah, what they are doing now is attempting to learn basic spanish, and then when they see someone they think is hispanic/latino they yell in a really bad attampt at spanish (at one clinic they have translated one of their signs into spanish, and it’s actually humourous, because they misspelled something).
Oh, and to Bethany, Jill is precisely correct, we don’t film because of privacy for the women involved. In fact, it’s actually illegal for the forced-pregnancy crowd to film. Respecting the rights of others, you lot might want to try that some time.
lauren -
Tell those old ladies to come our way, because honestly, could do with the break (like another strategy used here is getting clothing that looks like the things we wear to identify us as working for the clinic, walking around with clipboards, so if someone doesn’t look too closely, they may look official).
Though honestly, even then … look, according to you lot, your god is everywhere, right? So why the hell would he need you to be RIGHT OUTSIDE THE CLINIC? Couldn’t you do your praying somewhere that would respect some basics of politeness, like at your own places of worship?
Course, that would prevent your desperate slut-shaming, but hey, a girl can ask.
Huh. Now I am impressed. I don’t suppose I should be, though. When the only passage in the Bible that clearly discusses something even close to abortion seems to condone it (or at least treat it as a civil matter instead of a criminal one), then those who allegedly depend on the Bible for their position would need to find a way to explain it away.
One question about that “Stand to Reason” article, though: the author points out that the point of the fine is to pay for the “special care” of a premature child – one who has respiratory problems and “cannot nurse” as a result of their incomplete development. Shall we get real for a moment: is there any chance that a child that premature is going to survive in a nomadic shepherding community in 4,000 BCE?
Oh, and to Bethany, Jill is precisely correct, we don’t film because of privacy for the women involved. In fact, it’s actually illegal for the forced-pregnancy crowd to film. Respecting the rights of others, you lot might want to try that some time.
Are you saying it’s illegal to film a public protest outside a public building?
If you’re concerned about the women who are going into the clinic’s right to privacy, well, don’t tape them. Just tape the protesters. I want to see a video tape.
Bethany -
That just shows you don’t know the reality of what it means to be outside an abortion clinic during these protests.
You CAN’T just film the protestors. There are patients going in and out of the clinic through and past them all the time, as well as people not affiliated with either. Further, it is illegal for us to film if a car’s license plate is visible, as this is identifying information.
You can demand a video all you want, but you’re not going to get it. It’s not the ethical thing to be doing, and often illegal.
My point, of course, being that an infant born premature enough to require “special care” is no less doomed that a straightforward miscarriage, and the brawling men will still be to blame, in which case the death of a born-and-breathing baby is only worth a fine!
By the way, I know that this is off-topic, but now I’m curious: are there any articles about Deuteronomy 25:11-12?
“Sarah, Maybe you could go to a clinic and take your video camera with you so you could show us this yelling and insulting you speak of. I’d like to see someone actually prove this claim that I hear time and time again, with no evidence.”
Well why don’t you try this. Park near an abortion provider early in the a.m. Bring a backpack, as though you are carrying the items that you are required bring with you. Get out of the car. I would be willing to bet money on it that before you took your first step, someone would already have approached you. Say nothing. Attempt to walk towards the women’s health clinic. Try to empty your mind as to whether or not you are pro-life or pro-choice. As you approach, a group of people outnumbering you will approach you. They will try to give you literature. Some will say they are praying for you. Some will call you names. All will say you are killing your baby. Probably at some point in time, someone will ask you if you’d like an escort. If you agree, someone will help you . More likely, several escorts will have to form a circle arround you because so many “compassionate conservatives” are trying to physically grab at you.
Try this. If you do that in ernest, and this is not your experience, I will donate $ to any organization of your chosing.
You may, in the end, determine, “they are only trying to help,” but if you try to clear your mind, I think you will find the experience truly frightening and potentially dangerous.
Let’s be clear here: a private medical clinic is not a public building.
Let’s be clear here: a private medical clinic is not a public building
Are the protestors not standing on public domain?
Way to shift the goalposts there Bethany.
Recommendation, I would if I had one in my area. It would be good to get some money for our cause.
Way to shift the goalposts there Bethany.
You said that it would be illegal for you to videotape a protest, and I’m trying to figure out why, Sarah. I am not aware of any laws against videotaping in a public area. Maybe I’m wrong, but you’ll have to show me something.
Yes – you sound so certain that those protesters are just quietly holding their signs and saying their rosaries in silence. I’m sorry, but you are nuts. Many people in the anti-choice movement may be peacable and quietly pray to end abortion, but the ones who make it out in the mornings for their cause are anything but.
I am absolutely willing to believe you if I could just see some proof.
I can only hope that these people will not hurt anyone.
Bethany, Paul Hill has already killed people. Eric Rudolph killed people with backpack bombs, something which would be widely considered terrorism if the bomber had been a swarthy Muslim with an accent. Rather than turn him in, people who knew of his whereabouts when the FBI was looking for him stayed quiet, helped him hide for a good long time.
Violence is already part of the strategy. People who put up “wanted posters” with pictures and identifying information of doctors and nurses who provide abortions are clearly inciting violence. You may not want to see it, but it is there just the same.
Your hope has already failed.
Bethany -
There are laws in place to prevent the filming of women accessing medical services as it is considered a form of harrassment and not legitimate protest. I’m not making this shit up.
One way the ‘protesters’ get around this is by bringing video cameras without tapes in them; they get to do the harrassing, and technically remain within the law.
Bethany, do you expect to come to a feminist website and have us validate your need to publicly shame and harass women? Because I don’t know what the fuck you want here other than to say, “Those other harassers, I’m not like them.”
“I am absolutely willing to believe you if I could just see some proof.”
As it stands, you are absolutely unable to believe anyone about their experiences, yet I am sure you would have no problem believing if you read online about how some woman had an abortion and then really regretted it. If you require proof, then get your ass down to a women’s health clinic some morning and see what these women and men go through.
Frankly, I find most plastic surgeries to be vain and dispicable but I don’t try to track down people that get them and harrass them on their journey.
Bethany, Paul Hill has already killed people. Eric Rudolph killed people with backpack bombs, something which would be widely considered terrorism if the bomber had been a swarthy Muslim with an accent. Rather than turn him in, people who knew of his whereabouts when the FBI was looking for him stayed quiet, helped him hide for a good long time.
Violence is already part of the strategy. People who put up “wanted posters” with pictures and identifying information of doctors and nurses who provide abortions are clearly inciting violence. You may not want to see it, but it is there just the same.
How is it that you can understand that Muslims are not all terrorists, but you are more than willing to take extremists and use them as examples and try to deceive people into believing this is mainstream beliefs?
Lauren already showed you how Pro-life organizations everywhere have totally denounced Paul Hill, Rudolph, and other TERRORISTS who have bombed clinics. We have already told you we have nothing to do with those people, and that they are not pro-life.
You and others here seem to enjoy holding your ears closed and saynig la la la la because you desperately want to be able to call pro-lifers murderers. It’s not so. We all take the time to say, these people who bomb clinics are evil, evil people. And the people who have harbored and kept them safe are evil too.
It’s wrong to murder, period. Pro-life is a stance against murder. When these people call themselves pro-life they are lying.
How am I a violent terrorist because there is some insane person out there who is attacking lives in the supposed name of pro-life? When you see all the pro-life organizations saying, “WE WANT NO PART OF THESE PEOPLE AND THEY ARE WRONG”, and even taking action to make sure that others know this is wrong, and why it is wrong, what does that tell you? What more can we do?
There are laws which prohibit taping people without their knowledge or consent for commercial gain. There are also laws which prohibit filming people in either private places or public places where they have a reasonable expectation of privacy. This is not my area of expertise, but many states prohibit the unilateral recording of conversations without consent of the other party.
Of course, your own jurisdiction may be difference.
I wasn’t talking about you, Bethany. You weren’t talking about you when you said “I hope that these people don’t hurt anyone,” were you?
“These people” already have hurt people. It is a false hope. That’s all I meant.
Bethany, do you expect to come to a feminist website and have us validate your need to publicly shame and harass women? Because I don’t know what the fuck you want here other than to say, “Those other harassers, I’m not like them.”
Um, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Where have I ever expressed a need to publicly shame and harrass women? All I want is some evidence of the accusations.
As it stands, you are absolutely unable to believe anyone about their experiences, yet I am sure you would have no problem believing if you read online about how some woman had an abortion and then really regretted it.
I have no problem believing a women regrets her abortion, just as I have no problem believing a woman experiences pain after rape. Who else besides the woman would know how she feels?
You’re talking about something different than feelings though. You are making an accusation that other women are 1.) threatening women 2.) harrassing women 3.) yelling and screaming at women and on and on. If you want me to believe this, which is hearsay, I need to have some objective evidence of your claim. Your feelings may be valid (how you perceved it emotionally), but what actually happened may be a matter of perspective.
I wasn’t talking about you, Bethany. You weren’t talking about you when you said “I hope that these people don’t hurt anyone,” were you?
“These people” already have hurt people. It is a false hope. That’s all I meant.
“These people” referred to the people who are reenacting the shooting.
Yelling and screaming is somehow now a matter of individual perception that requires video proof?
Yelling and screaming is somehow now a matter of individual perception that requires video proof?
I am not sure what you mean? If you claim that people go to a clinic, and yell, scream, and harrass women all the time….then it should not be difficult to get the proof I’ve asked for. If it really happens so often, wouldn’t someone have already produced a tape by now? Kind of like the video I showed you of that pro-choice girl attacking a peaceful pro-life protester?
Oh and by the way, was that pro-choice woman just a “step away” from bombing those peaceful pro-life protesters?
Because, Bethany, you lot want to impose your beliefs on everyone, no matter what their individual beliefs. This isn’t about life, this is about the imposition of yourself onto others.
99.99999% of Muslims don’t want to do this.
That’s a difference.
You want to REALLY be pro-life? You want to be SUBSTANTIVELY different from the terrorists killing in your name? Then work on promoting comprehensive sex education, on ensuring condoms are available, that insurance companies pay for contraceptive drugs, that women (and men) have all the reproductive health options as accessible to them as humanly possible, on changing how gender operates in our society, etc. THAT’S how you reduce abortion rates. Banning abortion WON’T DO THIS. All it will do is end up putting the lives of women at risk. It won’t ‘save’ a single fetus.
Because until you do these things, and instead focus on imposing your beliefs on everyone around you, the connections to these kinds of people are too easy to see.
As much as R”A” wants to deny it, it’s clear that several of the militant anti-choice groups like Army of God use the internet — and sites exactly like these — to network and trade information on better harassment and violence techniques. Furthermore, groups like this are purposely leaderless so they don’t officially have “boards of directors, bylaws, meetings, bank accounts, official tax or other state filing status” that can be easily traced.
We can ignore that this is a group of people that is “organizing” by arguing over whether or not they are an “organization.”
________________
Brittney or whatever your name is, there are plenty of documentaries out there that you can throw on your to-see list if you want proof that clinic protesters are often violent and cruel. Let me know and I’ll compile a short list.
LOL funny how it’s okay for you to force your opinion that I better be promoting condoms and comprehensive sex education in order to qualify for your perception of pro-life should be.
I suppose it’s okay to push your beliefs on someone as long as you are pro-choice.
And how is sex education and birth control helping to reduce planned pregnancies, since half of unplanned pregnancies are due to failed birth control? Not to mention that condoms and the like do very little if anything to prevent STD’s.
Wow. Have we had a troll as delusional as Bethany in a while? She has actual witnesses of the behavior but refuses to believe them because … why? All pro-choice people are evil liars who just want to kill babies?
And, Bethany, when you go to your little protests, how many of those unwanted children have you adopted? Five? Ten?
Bethany, your portrait of George Bush Sr. was FANTASTIC.
And, Bethany, when you go to your little protests, how many of those unwanted children have you adopted? Five? Ten?
Are you against the torture of animals? If you are, how many animals have you adopted to prevent them from torture? Five? Ten?
Thank you, Lauren! I really appreciate that! :)
No one here is saying that you have to use birth control. We’re not going to hold you down and force the Pill down your throat if you don’t want it. You’re perfectly free to have as much unprotected sex as your little heart desires.
Why can’t you extend the same courtesy to women who want abortions? They’re not interfering with your life. They’re not demanding that you get one. They just want to be left alone to make their own medical decisions.
Over the course of my life? At least ten.
Why do you keep refreshing this page?
Okay, that sound you hear is my jaw dropping onto my desk.
Can you REALLY be that stupid? I mean, seriously?
The amount of irony in that sentence makes my teeth ache.
Right, it’s official; she’s a Troll.
Look, all I really came here for was not to start a discussion about birth control and all of that. I already have debated this ad nauseum at other places, and I already know, based on the people here, that it’s going to go nowhere.
The reason I am posting here is to ask you to please, have the consideration to not blame every pro-lifer based on what a terrorist does. It’s simply not fair.
I do not feel that anyone should be bombing clinics, and I am more than happy to see these people imprisoned for doing such things, and I think they are rotten, disgusting people for what they did. Murder is murder, and two wrongs never make a right.
Right, it’s official; she’s a Troll
why, because i posted facts?
I’ve adopted two. I’ll have three pretty soon, but that’s about as many as I can fit into my apartment.
So how many babies have you adopted, Bethany?
I’ve adopted two. I’ll have three pretty soon, but that’s about as many as I can fit into my apartment.
So how many babies have you adopted, Bethany?
lol I haven’t adopted any, but that doesn’t make my position against abortion any less valid than it would make yours if you hadn’t adopted any animals. You don’t have to adopt animals to know that torturing animals is wrong. Do you think you do?
I thought everyone could use a breather:
Sarah, there’s not slut shaming. We give information about social services and continuing education. The majority of the women who come to us (we never go to them, we stand on the other side of a partially fenced parkinglot) honestly felt like they had no other option but to abort. We are simply giving them more options. We say “we have information that might help you” and let them decide if they’d like to take it.
Most don’t, but some do. I’m glad we are able to help the ones who need it. It isn’t about intimidating anyone. I’ve never heard anyone call anyone names or anything like that. In fact the security gaurd has helped *us* before when someone has gotten stranded with a flat tire.
We’ve even helped clinic workes find different jobs if they express interest. One of the sidewalk counselors became really good friends with an abortion counselor. It’s honestly nothing at all like I imagined it would be. I expected bloody signs and angry men, but I saw nothing like that.
So you’re in favor of forcing other women to take on a responsibility that you yourself refuse. You see nothing wrong with pressuring other women to take on a lifetime responsibility that you yourself think is not your problem.
There’s a word for that, you know. Starts with an “H.”
An animal is a separate being with a life of its own. An embryo (because that’s what it is until the second trimester — an embryo, not a fetus) is not. It is completely tied to and dependent on the body of its host. Do you really not understand that basic fact of biology?
Yes, I understand that it is a complete, individual life, with separate DNA and characteristics all from the moment of conception. That is a basic fact of biology. What you are talking about is location.
So you’re in favor of forcing other women to take on a responsibility that you yourself refuse. You see nothing wrong with pressuring other women to take on a lifetime responsibility that you yourself think is not your problem.
Yes, just as I think it is other women’s responsibility to not batter their born children, but to treat them respectfully, but that doesn’t mean that I go around adopting all of their children just to make sure that all the children are not battered.
Yes. And that location is inside the body of a human being.
Besides, a “complete, individual life with separate DNA” describes a tapeworm. Try harder.
Besides, a “complete, individual life with separate DNA” describes a tapeworm. Try harder.
Yes, you’re right. I forgot to mention a member of the human species.
When they still have gills? Not yet, I think. Human DNA does not a member of the human species make, or we’d hold funerals for excised cancerous tumors.
The reason I am posting here is to ask you to please, have the consideration to not blame every pro-lifer based on what a terrorist does.
Request denied. You can go now.
Unborn babies do not have gills. This has already been long disproven.
Here’s a quick cut and paste from a relevant website, then I have to go make supper for the kids..
“The same is true of the so-called “gill slits.” In the human embryo at one month, there are wrinkles (flexion folds) in the skin where the “throat pouches” grow out. Once in a while, one of these pouches will break through, and a child will be born with a small hole in the neck. That’s when we find out for sure that these structures are not gill slits. If the opening were really part of a gill, if it really were a “throwback to the fish stage,” then there would be blood vessels all around it, as if it were going to absorb oxygen from water as a gill does. But there is no such structure. We simply don’t have the DNA instructions for forming gills.
Unfortunately, some babies are born with three eyes or one eye. That doesn’t mean, of course, that we evolved from something with one eye or three eyes. It’s simply a mistake in the normal program for human development, and it emphasizes how perfect our design features and operation must be for life to continue.
The throat (or pharyngeal) grooves and pouches, falsely called “gill slit,” are not mistakes in human development. They develop into absolutely essential parts of human anatomy – the lower jaw, tongue, thymus gland, the parathyroid, etc. The middle ear canals come from the second pouches, and the parathyroid and thymus glands come from the third and fourth.
Without a thymus, we would lose half our immune systems. Without the parathyroids, we would be unable to regulate calcium balance and could not even survive. Another pouch, thought to be vestigial by evolutionists until just recently, becomes a gland that assists in calcium balance. Far from being useless evolutionary vestiges, then, these so-called “gill slits” are quite essential for distinctively human development.
As with “yolk sacs,” “gill slit” formation represents an ingenious and adaptable solution to a difficult engineering problem. How can a small, round egg cell be turned into an animal or human being with a digestive tube and various organs inside a body cavity? The answer is to have the little ball (or flat sheet in some organisms) “swallow itself,” forming a tube which then “buds off” other tubes and pouches. The anterior pituitary, lungs, urinary bladder, and parts of the liver and pancreas develop in this way.
In fish, gills develop from such processes, and in human beings, the ear canals, parathyroid, and thymus glands develop. Following DNA instructions in their respective egg cells, fish and human beings each use a similar process to develop their distinctive features.”
(Also, Cancerous tumors are not complete individual human organisms. )
Hope you all have a good evening. Talk to you later.
I’m not sure how you got that from what I posted. If either the child or mother dies as a result of the injury the price is death. If the mother delivers and the child lives, only a fine must be paid. It seems reasonable that a child born alive only to die minutes later would fall into the catagory of “an eye for an eye”.
As For Deuteronomy 25, I did find an interpertation that I think you might find interesting-
“This article argues that the most likely translation for Deut. 25:12a is ‘you shall shave [the hair of] her groin’. This reading is philologically and lexically superior to the standard translations, and it resolves the anomaly of one and only one law in the entire Israelite corpus that imposes physical mutilation as a punishment. It also addresses problems that divide commentators into two camps: those who see the punishment as talionic and those who see it as based on the shamefulness of the woman’s deed. By reducing the severity of the punishment from the permanency of amputation to the temporary humiliation of depilation, it allows the punishment to be seen as both. She has humiliated a man publicly by an assault on his genitalia (presumably without serious injury to them); her punishment is public genital humiliation, similarly without permanent injury.”
link
For the purposes of ethics, how does not allowing the pregnant woman to abort respect her rights as a “complete, individual life with separate DNA”? I don’t have to worry abut someone using my physical body for purposes I do not consent to.
All mocking aside, Bethany, here’s the key: even if an embryo (well, a blastocyst) is a complete individual life with separate DNA who is a member of the human species from the moment of conception, that doesn’t give that complete individual life with separate DNA who is a member of the human species the right to force another complete individual life with separate DNA who is a member of the human species to act as their life-support system.
Born individuals don’t have that right, not even if the other born individual is somehow responsible for them needing a life support system (a car accident perhaps?). What gives a collection of cells with no separate existence that right?
Seraph- human’s never have “gills” they have a seires of pharyngeal pouches that develop into the thymus gland, the parathyroids, and the middle ear canals.
http://isc.temple.edu/marino/embryology/parch98/parch_text.htm
Even if they *did* have gills, our humanity is not based on our level of development. Someone past puberty is not *more* human than an infant.
Since women who do that get arrested and have their children taken away from them and raised by people who are hand-picked by the government, no one is arguing that you should. However, there is no such government program to take care of unwanted embryos.
Are you saying that there should be huge government-run orphanages to raise these unwanted children that will result from banning abortion? Because that worked out really well in Romania when the government banned abortion there. Or, again, are you arguing that other women should have to take on a responsibility that you’re not willing to take on?
Let’s see, from a local newspaper, the Boulder Daily Camera, on July 20, 2005:
Members of Operation Save America, an anti-abortion and anti-gay organization, paraded the streets of Boulder on Tuesday carrying anti-abortion signs and large gory photos of aborted body parts.
Simultaneously, two groups camped in front of Boulder Abortion Clinic, 1130 Alpine Ave., and Boulder Valley Women’s Health Center, 2855 Valmont Road, as their leaders shouted that “abortion is murder.”
Their visit to Boulder is part of a one-week tour in Colorado protest facilities that perform abortions.
In addition to the visuals and the speeches, the protesters passed out brochures and played music loudly out of a stereo. Meanwhile a truck emblazoned with the group’s message circled downtown Boulder.
The University of Colorado campus also was on the group’s agenda, including professor Ward Churchill’s office
Yup. Shouting Abortion is Murder outside of clinics. That’s one tiny brief that I found in the archives.
Look, most of us here have served as escorts or gotten abotions or both. We know the reality of what most of your “pro-life” groups do. And it isn’t pretty. It’s violent, savage, and, frankly, reveals you for the illogical creatures you are.
Go away, please.
Oh, and one from July 22nd. Same paper:
Members of the anti-abortion group Operation Save America distributed leaflets in Boulder this week identifying “abortionist Warren Hern” with his photo as a “baby killer,” and his clinic as a “killing center.”
“A baby killer lives in your neighborhood,” the leaflet said, and it asked people to drive the “murderer” out. The leaflets have been distributed in neighborhoods near the Boulder Abortion Clinic, owned by Dr. Hern.
One leaflet fell into his hands. He said it was disturbing and called it a “fascist tactic.”
Texas-based Operation Save America rallied on the streets of Boulder on Tuesday, carrying gory pictures of aborted body parts, and demonstrated with loud anti-abortion and anti-gay speeches in front of Boulder Abortion Clinic and Boulder Valley Women`s Health Center, where abortions also are performed.
Hern said he feared for his life because similar leaflets preceded the assassination of several abortion doctors around the United States. During his more than 30 years of medical practice, he said, he has been threatened numerous times and his name was in “12 Most Wanted Doctors,” a hit list of abortion doctors published by the American Coalition of Life Activists in 1995.
Jan, who said she was withholding her last name for fear of reprisal, found one of the leaflets stuck on her front door, several blocks from the clinic.
“I`m horrified,” she said, “but mostly I`m concerned with Dr. Warren Hern`s safety.”
Julie Brooks, spokeswoman for the Boulder Police Department, said the demonstrators were cooperative during their march Tuesday, and in all cases did what they where asked to do.
And an editorial from July 20:
T he wind whipping through Boulder on Tuesday was hot, like the blast of an open oven. For some out-of-state extremists, it was a gust from hell.
They call themselves Operation Save America. The group, formerly known as Operation Rescue, brandishes huge pictures of aborted fetuses and harasses patients trying to enter clinics that perform abortions.
They gathered along the sidewalks of Alpine Avenue, in front of the Boulder Abortion Clinic, spilling around the corner onto Broadway. There, they hoisted their repulsive signs and tried to get drivers` attention.
Many wore red T-shirts proclaiming that “Truth is hate to those who hate the truth.” A few wore black shirts reading, “Homosexuality is sin. Islam is a lie. Abortion is murder.”
On Broadway, the sidewalk exclamations continued. “Babies are being killed here,” said a boy who was not much more than a baby himself. He edged toward a car, which drove away. Another red light presented another captive car. “Babies are being killed here,” the boy repeated.
Dozens of protesters engaged in largely futile attempts to pass out literature, shock the citizens or, one presumes, draw any kind of response. OSA director Flip Benham roused his followers with a short sermon. “Everything will be tolerated in the city of Boulder,” Benham shouted, “except the truth.”
With the help of loudspeakers, Benham`s booming voice could be heard a half-block away, on Broadway. “The gospel of Jesus Christ is not tolerated” in Boulder, Benham intoned.
No one interfered. Nearby, several police officers and a few curious hospital workers watched, tolerantly.
“It takes a village to kill a child,” Benham said. Among those he said were complicit in the “killing” are “newspapers that cover up the truth” and “a police department that will not prosecute” doctors who perform abortions.
Benham seems to have a persecution complex, believing that Christians alone are criticized here. “If I were a part of the homosexual lifestyle, there wouldn`t be anything said; there wouldn`t be anything dared to be said,” he said.
About that time, a Boulder officer asked the group to turn down its amplifiers. Benham suggested the request came because he`d dared to criticize homosexuals.
“They are bolder in Boulder about parading their sin in the streets … proud of people like Ward Churchill, who advocates violence,” Benham said. Boulder is, of course, anything but “proud” of Churchill. As for the “sin” parading in the streets, Benham said Boulder women sashay around topless.
Right. You see that all the time.
Benham led his group in prayer. He asked God to “pierce the spirit of darkness of this evil and wicked city.” Then he asked the group to head toward the University of Colorado, which he described as the “gates of hell.”
As men dismantled the sound system, I approached Benham and asked him why he disliked CU. Benham was amiable but said the university was a “bastion of liberal hate,” a place that incites a “hatred for God.” CU, he said, will “tolerate any behavior except the gospel of Christ.”
At the Boulder Valley Women`s Health Center, the scene was similar, though smaller. A few drivers gestured their disapproval. A few honked supportively.
Meanwhile, a shirtless man who said he lived nearby emerged to complain about the noise. With a broom in his hand, he yelled at a small phalanx of protesters, calling them “sick” and arguing that someone who is “pro-life” wouldn`t eat animals.
“Vegetarianism is not His way,” replied a man with a loudspeaker, adding, “You are the work of the devil.” The fruitless argument, which the agitators seemed to relish, continued in this manner for some time.
The protesters soon headed up University Hill to take a stand at the gates of hell. Before joining them, Benham said Boulder had been more hostile than other cities.
That`s hard to believe. Sure, there were occasional angry shouts and gesticulations. But mostly, Boulder seemed to ignore these angry extremists. That was the appropriate response.
As the Christian soldiers marched onward, they left a scattering of leaflets, a portion of which said: “Every stronghold, every false ideology, everything that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, must be brought down and totally destroyed.” This is their brand of tolerance, flaunted in the name of Christ.
And I notice that the thread has nicely derailed into a discussion about abortion in general, rather than continuing to focus on the undeniable point that it’s the anti-choicers who have the blood of born people on their hands. Congratulations, Bethany.
Seraph, Do you believe an 8 year old has the right to be provided for? What about a healthy 23 year old ?
Do you agree that certain protections are afforded to children that are not afforded to adults?
Oh, shoot. My comment is still in moderation. Suffice it to say, Lauren: we have noticed what you and Bethany are doing. This thread has strayed from a discussion about how anti-choicers are the ones who have the blood of born people on their hands to an endless, pointless discussion of abortion in general. Well done.
Anyway. To answer your questions: Yes, yes, and yes. However, “provided for” is not the same as “allowed to use someone else’s body as their life support system”.
Besides, the questions are moot, because a three-month-old embryo is not yet a child, let alone an eight year old, still less a healty adult (however, the woman generally is…unless she’s an unhealthy adult, which adds a whole new issue).
I’ve never seen a forced-pregnancy ‘protester’ who didn’t at least carry a giant gory bloody photo with them. Not exactly evocative of peace and hope or whatever.
What’s with that, anyway? I’m against murder (you know, actual murder), but I don’t walk around holding giant photos of mangled corpses. Especially in areas where people might have their children with them. That’s assault, or almost anyway.
What kind of protections are you envisioning, Lauren? Colombia had very strict fetus protections in place, but it turned out to be fairly unpopular that women were dying of cancer because they were denied abortions.
Romania completely banned both abortion and birth control. Click my link at 79 above if you’ve forgotten how well that worked out for the children of Romania.
Somehow, these “protections” that people like you want end up killing both women and children, both born and fetal. How is is “pro-life” to leave children orphaned and destitute because their mother was not allowed to get cancer treatment that would have killed the fetus she was carrying? How is it “pro-life” to abandon children in filthy orphanages because no one wants to care for them?
As much as R”A” wants to deny it, it’s clear that several of the militant anti-choice groups like Army of God use the internet — and sites exactly like these — to network and trade information on better harassment and violence techniques.
The only points I raised were (1) whether the three websites honoring Paul Hill could fairly be called “pro-life organizations” and (2) whether those “organizations,” run by two violence-celebrating individuals, were representative of the mainstream pro-life movement.
Seraph, it was never my intention to stray the thread. I was simply answering questions that were asked of me. The reason Bethany and I started posting was to speak out against the man who is organizing this reinactment.
If you don’t want to continue this discussion, I’ll leave. If you’d like to continue, but not here, you’re welcome to discuss this with me at my site. Anyways, let’s all hope that no harm is done to anyone on this sick, sick “holiday”.