Comments on: Throwing the T overboard to save the LGB http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/ In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set. Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:46:14 +0000 hourly 1 By: You don't have to be straight to be an ass : The Curvature http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-130325 You don't have to be straight to be an ass : The Curvature Mon, 08 Oct 2007 17:08:29 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-130325 [...] more excellent analysis, check out Jill and [...] [...] more excellent analysis, check out Jill and [...]

]]> By: little light http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-129918 little light Fri, 05 Oct 2007 20:36:07 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-129918 Okay, look, Mercurial, penises aren't <em>magic</em>. Really. You don't <em>know</em> who does and doesn't have one in the bathroom. Especially in a bathroom with stalls. You probably pee next to someone with genitalia you don't expect all the time. And they're not more inclined to wave the contents of their pants around than you are--the priority is, shockingly, <em>going to the bathroom. </em> I appreciate that you're coming along on these issues. It seems like you're on the right track. But using "he/she" to refer to someone you know identifies as female, or treating penises-or-the-lack-thereof as somehow magically potent right after you've said you don't think identities should be linked to genitals, is problematic. What do you expect folks to do? You don't want a trans person to feel the need to change their genital configuration to validate their identity, but you don't want them in with other women or men unless they do? You're okay with trans women being women and protected from discrimination, uncomfortable with the idea of surgery, but don't want to share a bathroom with them if they<em> haven't </em>had it? Which is it? Do you see where there's problems here? Okay, look, Mercurial, penises aren’t magic. Really.
You don’t know who does and doesn’t have one in the bathroom. Especially in a bathroom with stalls. You probably pee next to someone with genitalia you don’t expect all the time. And they’re not more inclined to wave the contents of their pants around than you are–the priority is, shockingly, going to the bathroom.

I appreciate that you’re coming along on these issues. It seems like you’re on the right track. But using “he/she” to refer to someone you know identifies as female, or treating penises-or-the-lack-thereof as somehow magically potent right after you’ve said you don’t think identities should be linked to genitals, is problematic.
What do you expect folks to do? You don’t want a trans person to feel the need to change their genital configuration to validate their identity, but you don’t want them in with other women or men unless they do? You’re okay with trans women being women and protected from discrimination, uncomfortable with the idea of surgery, but don’t want to share a bathroom with them if they haven’t had it? Which is it? Do you see where there’s problems here?

]]> By: jayinchicago http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-129321 jayinchicago Wed, 03 Oct 2007 07:52:01 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-129321 <blockquote>Though I wonder where the FTM goes since they still don’t have a penis, it’s going to show at the urinal, and they are also at a high risk of violence by men who feels threatened for some reason.</blockquote> Men's bathrooms often have these things called stalls. With doors. Usually with locks.

Though I wonder where the FTM goes since they still don’t have a penis, it’s going to show at the urinal, and they are also at a high risk of violence by men who feels threatened for some reason.

Men’s bathrooms often have these things called stalls. With doors. Usually with locks.

]]> By: Mercurial Georgia http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-129312 Mercurial Georgia Wed, 03 Oct 2007 04:56:00 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-129312 Oh that is bull. I'm not quite comfortable about the transgender thing, both because I don't like elective surgeries, and I don't like idea of identities tied to genitals in the first place. ...but in this society we live in, if someone is more comfortable as what they define as male or what they define as female, let them. They must be protected from discrimination. We can have a third bathroom, Thailand does it and the world has not ended. If someone born a man doesn't have a penis anymore, or is already on softening hormones, I really won't feel uncomfortable with he/she being in the bathroom with me at all. Though I wonder where the FTM goes since they still don't have a penis, it's going to show at the urinal, and they are also at a high risk of violence by men who feels threatened for some reason. Oh that is bull.

I’m not quite comfortable about the transgender thing, both because I don’t like elective surgeries, and I don’t like idea of identities tied to genitals in the first place. …but in this society we live in, if someone is more comfortable as what they define as male or what they define as female, let them. They must be protected from discrimination.

We can have a third bathroom, Thailand does it and the world has not ended. If someone born a man doesn’t have a penis anymore, or is already on softening hormones, I really won’t feel uncomfortable with he/she being in the bathroom with me at all. Though I wonder where the FTM goes since they still don’t have a penis, it’s going to show at the urinal, and they are also at a high risk of violence by men who feels threatened for some reason.

]]> By: Mnemosyne http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-129018 Mnemosyne Tue, 02 Oct 2007 00:06:12 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-129018 Not that it matters, but the "queerest of the queer" phrase is probably a nod to the Garbage song, <a href="http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/garbage/queer.html" rel="nofollow">"Queer"</a> since that phrase is part of the chorus. So it's a reference to an actual phrase in popular culture, not something the writer came up with. Not that it matters, but the “queerest of the queer” phrase is probably a nod to the Garbage song, “Queer” since that phrase is part of the chorus. So it’s a reference to an actual phrase in popular culture, not something the writer came up with.

]]> By: Nondiscrimination for Some, For Now « Matt Zeitlin: Impetuous Young Whippersnapper http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-129013 Nondiscrimination for Some, For Now « Matt Zeitlin: Impetuous Young Whippersnapper Mon, 01 Oct 2007 23:54:38 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-129013 [...] by Matt Zeitlin on October 1st, 2007 Jill at Feministe explores the divisions in the progressive community over the Employee Non Discrimination Act and whether it [...] [...] by Matt Zeitlin on October 1st, 2007 Jill at Feministe explores the divisions in the progressive community over the Employee Non Discrimination Act and whether it [...]

]]> By: eastsidekate http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-128991 eastsidekate Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:11:33 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-128991 I'll go one farther, Holly. Those 40 years were spent by "respectable" (i.e. privileged) homosexuals convincing the public that they weren't like those "uppity trannies." Not only have some gays and lesbians appropriated Stonewall as their own, but they've actually gotten their gains by contrasting themselves as much as possible with the poor, confrontational, and occasionally flamboyant transsexuals that were at Stonewall. It's not just Barney (OMG they'll use the showers) Frank that suffers from transphobia, it's everyone at HRC and in the assimilationist-wing (i.e. privileged) of the gays rights movement that gets freaked out by the possibility of being mentioned in the same sentences as queers like me (or worse). I’ll go one farther, Holly. Those 40 years were spent by “respectable” (i.e. privileged) homosexuals convincing the public that they weren’t like those “uppity trannies.” Not only have some gays and lesbians appropriated Stonewall as their own, but they’ve actually gotten their gains by contrasting themselves as much as possible with the poor, confrontational, and occasionally flamboyant transsexuals that were at Stonewall.

It’s not just Barney (OMG they’ll use the showers) Frank that suffers from transphobia, it’s everyone at HRC and in the assimilationist-wing (i.e. privileged) of the gays rights movement that gets freaked out by the possibility of being mentioned in the same sentences as queers like me (or worse).

]]> By: Holly http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-128986 Holly Mon, 01 Oct 2007 21:41:09 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-128986 My favorite quote of late is from the Washington Post editorial: <em>It requires time and patience to educate the public and lawmakers about how prejudice harms some people. That's what gays and lesbians have been doing in their quest for equality for nearly 40 years. And that's what transgender people will have to do. Delaying passage of ENDA, which was first introduced in the House in the mid-1970s by Rep. Bella Abzug (D-N.Y.), until the transgender community changes enough hearts and minds would be a mistake.</em> Wow, so I guess trans people just arrived on the planet or have been sitting around doing nothing but fixing our hair for the last 40 years, eh? It's not like trans people were involved in the beginnings of the gay liberation movement, or like any trans people were ever, you know... totally railroaded out as unacceptable. The statement above reads a lot like "well, you all will have to work hard for decades just like we did, then maybe you'll get somewhere!" And that's basically erasing a massive amount of the history of trans activists. I hope the ghosts of Sylvia Rivera and Reed Erickson haunt whoever wrote that editorial. My favorite quote of late is from the Washington Post editorial:
It requires time and patience to educate the public and lawmakers about how prejudice harms some people. That’s what gays and lesbians have been doing in their quest for equality for nearly 40 years. And that’s what transgender people will have to do. Delaying passage of ENDA, which was first introduced in the House in the mid-1970s by Rep. Bella Abzug (D-N.Y.), until the transgender community changes enough hearts and minds would be a mistake.

Wow, so I guess trans people just arrived on the planet or have been sitting around doing nothing but fixing our hair for the last 40 years, eh? It’s not like trans people were involved in the beginnings of the gay liberation movement, or like any trans people were ever, you know… totally railroaded out as unacceptable. The statement above reads a lot like “well, you all will have to work hard for decades just like we did, then maybe you’ll get somewhere!” And that’s basically erasing a massive amount of the history of trans activists. I hope the ghosts of Sylvia Rivera and Reed Erickson haunt whoever wrote that editorial.

]]> By: piny http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-128978 piny Mon, 01 Oct 2007 21:21:30 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-128978 Well, that and the fact that this isn´t just callous realpolitik from the gay side. There´s also actual transphobia. ...I´m annoyed that transpeople seem to have become a football. Frank sees them as a symbol of too much, whereas Signorile is overidentifying. Well, that and the fact that this isn´t just callous realpolitik from the gay side. There´s also actual transphobia.

…I´m annoyed that transpeople seem to have become a football. Frank sees them as a symbol of too much, whereas Signorile is overidentifying.

]]> By: eastsidekate http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-128969 eastsidekate Mon, 01 Oct 2007 21:05:36 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/01/throwing-the-t-overboard-to-save-the-lgb/#comment-128969 <blockquote>I kind of wish we could talk about the big pink elephant in the room, myself. It isn´t just dismissal, although that´s bad enough.</blockquote> I assume you're talking about the assumption that all trans people are queer, queer, queer? That kinda irked me, too. First, yeah, I'm in agreement with <i>part</i> of the spirit of the person who said we need to protect the "queerest of the queer." Yes, everyone needs to be protected, and those that stand out most, are most likely to catch flax. OTOH, it's offensive to shove trans people off to the side-- we're not necessarily queer. Some of us (myself included) identify as such (although I've got a professional job, a partner and a baby on the way), but a lot of us don't. Tons of transsexual people are very gender normative-- just normative in a gender that doesn't match what's expected for a person of their birth sex. There are lots of trans people who consider themselves straight, and there are some who are downright homophobic (just as there are homosexual people who are downright transphobic). Lumping us all together as some sort of big queer sideshow shows no understanding of the lives of transpeople, nor the diversity thereof.

I kind of wish we could talk about the big pink elephant in the room, myself. It isn´t just dismissal, although that´s bad enough.

I assume you’re talking about the assumption that all trans people are queer, queer, queer? That kinda irked me, too.

First, yeah, I’m in agreement with part of the spirit of the person who said we need to protect the “queerest of the queer.” Yes, everyone needs to be protected, and those that stand out most, are most likely to catch flax.

OTOH, it’s offensive to shove trans people off to the side– we’re not necessarily queer. Some of us (myself included) identify as such (although I’ve got a professional job, a partner and a baby on the way), but a lot of us don’t. Tons of transsexual people are very gender normative– just normative in a gender that doesn’t match what’s expected for a person of their birth sex. There are lots of trans people who consider themselves straight, and there are some who are downright homophobic (just as there are homosexual people who are downright transphobic). Lumping us all together as some sort of big queer sideshow shows no understanding of the lives of transpeople, nor the diversity thereof.

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