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Jill has been blogging for Feministe since 2005.
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77 Responses

  1. Brad Jackson
    Brad Jackson October 31, 2007 at 7:29 am |

    When I read stuff like that I’ve got to wonder, is it real? I mean its so perfectly messed up that it seems more like a parody.

    Wow…. The worst part is that it almost certainly isn’t parody, but that this person is as truly messed up in the head as he sounds.

  2. Natalia
    Natalia October 31, 2007 at 7:42 am |

    [some armchair psychology] The description of the physical attributes he notices in a woman sounds very intimate. I’m willing to bet that he is speaking of a specific woman here. I’m also willing to bet that he was rejected – and probably not because of his “status” either. The “status” thing is just an excuse for a relationship that failed for other reasons, or a relationship that never got off the ground in the first place.

    He’s hurt, and he’s protecting himself from the pain by trying to explain away what happened using the usual set of stereotypes.

    I would recommend that he get help. Not necessarily from a psychologist either (since we all know how “pathetic” it is for a young man to seek professional aid at a time like this – hah! It’s funny how weird our culture is in this regard). He needs to get out more, hang out with friends who won’t just sit around and say things like “yeah, man, you’re right.” Focus on enjoying his life rather than wallowing in his pain.

    And I wouldn’t recommend trying to get into a relationship until he figures his stuff out. He’ll have another disaster on his hands. And we’ll have more Craigslist posts to deal with.

    I also understand that he posted a follow-up. Clearly, he wants to communicate with others – he was lonely, and wanted a reaction. I hope that he’ll finally be encouraged to deal with the problem now. [/ some armchair psychology]

  3. Natalia
    Natalia October 31, 2007 at 7:44 am |

    [some armchair psychology] The description of the physical attributes he notices in a woman sounds very intimate. I’m willing to bet that he is speaking of a specific woman here. I’m also willing to bet that he was rejected – and probably not because of his “status” either. The “status” thing is just an excuse for a relationship that failed for other reasons, or a relationship that never got off the ground in the first place.

    He’s hurt, and he’s protecting himself from the pain by trying to explain away what happened using the usual set of stereotypes.

    I would recommend that he get help. Not necessarily from a psychologist either (since we all know how “pathetic” it is for a young man to seek professional aid at a time like this – hah! It’s funny how weird our culture is in this regard). He needs to get out more, hang out with friends who won’t just sit around and say things like “yeah, man, you’re right.” Focus on enjoying his life rather than wallowing in his pain.

    And I wouldn’t recommend trying to get into a relationship until he figures his stuff out. He’ll have another disaster on his hands. And we’ll have more Craigslist posts to deal with.

    I also understand that he posted a follow-up. Clearly, he wants to communicate with others – he was lonely, and wanted a reaction. I hope that he’ll finally be encouraged to deal with the problem now. [/ some armchair psychology]

  4. Natalia
    Natalia October 31, 2007 at 7:46 am |

    Oops! Sorry for the double post!

  5. Betty Boondoggle
    Betty Boondoggle October 31, 2007 at 8:28 am |

    I’ll say it again: Women are attracted to men, just not you, dumpling. Now, turn off the porn, go take a shower, brush up on your social skills and turn off the whiny, useless “nice guy” in your head. You might then have some luck.

  6. INotI
    INotI October 31, 2007 at 9:17 am |

    It seems like success with women is equal to spending half of your life working to create a giant illusion, something vastly tiring and annoying, while sacrificing your own true self and your own interests

    This seems like the key to what he’s saying. He’s just mad that he has to inculcate interests that will attract a woman, or look harder for a woman who’s interested in the same things as him. In short, he’s just plain lazy.

  7. Mary
    Mary October 31, 2007 at 9:32 am |

    If he’s this upset about being attracted to women who only value status, maybe he should castrate himself and take care of that. This sounds similar to the men responding to the “Modesty Survey.”

  8. Hawise
    Hawise October 31, 2007 at 9:39 am |

    I am somehow a problem because I find people more attractive than lists of things. Wow. Now I have to get on with my life full of interesting people while he sits in his basement bemoaning his fate and not doing his homework.

  9. RKMK
    RKMK October 31, 2007 at 9:40 am |

    Story as old as time: they’re attracted to us, we’re not so easily whelmed by them as to constantly hump like bunnies at a drop of a hat, ergo they view it as a weakness, ergo they hate us for making them weak, ergo they see us as “weak.” Freud didn’t have much going for him in a lot of cases, but projection explains so much at times.

    I, too, was ‘amused’ by the accusations of shallowness, closely followed by a list of objectified reasons why this asshole falls “in love.” Whatever, ass.

  10. Ailurophile
    Ailurophile October 31, 2007 at 9:55 am |

    Oooh. SOMEONE’s bitter that he can’t get laid. The snide remark about women being attracted to men “who smile and laugh” makes me think that this guy drives women away by his personality. Dollars to donuts he’s one of those whiny, sullen, perpetually put-upon Nice Guys ™.

    when I’m evaluating potential partners, you bet I’m looking at how full his life is, if he’s happy with what he does, if he’s ambitious and passionate, if he’s created a life that satisfies him, if he socializes in the same ways that I do, if I find him interesting and fun.

    Damn skippy. If I’m going to invest a significant chunk of my life and emotions into a guy, I want someone who is happy and pleasant to be around.

  11. kali
    kali October 31, 2007 at 9:57 am |

    As a man, I fall in love with how a woman is physically. I fall in love with simple parts of a woman. Like the way her hair falls around her face, the line of her neck, her shoulders. They way her ears might peek from her hair. Her eyelashes. The size and shape of her hands, her fingernails. The way she walks, the way she looks when she is tired or annoyed, the sound she makes when she sneezes, coughs, or cries. The way she sits in a chair. The way she breathes while experiencing different emotions. The way her lips move. A million little things.

    Jesus. What a stalker. Not that it’s necessarily stalkerish to notice stuff like that about someone you’re in love with, even unrequited love… but to notice all these things and hoard them up for masturbation purposes and think that’s what being in love is? Stalker.
    And also… shallow, superficial, and self-righteous about his own shallowness! A totally repellent human being.

    I do love the line about “women not being able to think for themselves” because the apparent difference between men’s and women’s obsession with physical appearance stems largely from the fact that there is a massive industry devoted to telling men(and women) which women are beautiful. Women are much more likely to find something non-modelish like a paunch or hairiness attractive. What’s the betting this guy is into slim, tanned, toned blonde white chicks just like the ones he sees in his wank mags? If he sees himself as really sensitive and “different” maybe he prefers brunettes…

  12. Dr. Confused
    Dr. Confused October 31, 2007 at 10:19 am |

    I’m with Natalia on the armchair psychology. Classic Nice Guy scenario: “One woman rejected me; all women are bitches!” Or shallow, or deluded, or whatever.

  13. tigi
    tigi October 31, 2007 at 10:22 am |

    Man, I hate it when men smile, laugh, and have interests and friends outside of me. I want a moody whiner who spends all day talking about how everyone else constantly lets him down and obsessively staring at the way my lips move and how I look when I’m annoyed.

  14. DAS
    DAS October 31, 2007 at 10:39 am |

    Allow me to dust off my Nice Guy(TM) hat and put it on. Wow! After all these years it still fits. (clears throught):

    I kinda see what this guy is getting at. I would frame it thus. That so many men are so shallow isn’t necessarily a bad thing and it would behoove some women to be more shallow.

    See the problem is that shallow things such as looks are, by their nature, very easy to evaluate. You decide whom you find attractive and pursue that person. And, given the variety of human tastes, someone will always find any given person to be sufficiently attractive to merit asking out (pace Kali, many men indeed alas are “into” what the fashion industry tells them is attactive — but I’d reckon many of these men would most likely consider a woman selected at random from their age group to meet that standard even if that woman would be able to make a laundry list of areas in which she falls short of the standard).

    OTOH, how does a person quickly evaluate another person in a non-shallow manner? E.g. at a party where you are meeting people, how do you know which one you might wish to get to, um, know better, if you are not being shallow? The problem is that you can’t. So, while the shallow (men) know whom they want to get to know better and make efforts to get to know them (and sometimes to the point of being freaky and stalkerish) … those who are not shallow either have to wait for someone to make an effort to know them, waste time getting to know a bunch of people who really aren’t that interesting or make selections based on method of approach, etc.

    Which is better? Selecting a date based on looks? Or not being so shallow, not selecting based on looks but rather deciding you’ll select based on personality, but pre-judging someone’s entire personality based on a few moments of interaction?

  15. Thom
    Thom October 31, 2007 at 10:44 am |

    “Who wants to bed that this guy’s love is building and crystallizing for his Canadian internet girlfriend, who he’s going to meet just as soon as she gets a break from all the modeling she’s been doing lately?”

    I don’t think this is a fair assumption to make at all.

    I mean, she could be Italian.

  16. Rose
    Rose October 31, 2007 at 11:00 am |

    This could have been written by so many of the dudes in my major. They never learn that we can smell the misogyny, and the desperation it masks, even if they don’t talk.

  17. LC
    LC October 31, 2007 at 11:01 am |

    I have to agree with Natalia. Hurt by someone specific, and flailing about in pain.

  18. Rosemary Grace
    Rosemary Grace October 31, 2007 at 11:27 am |

    A friend of mine is convinced that his sex drive is a handicap, because he can’t stop thinking about sex. The first time he said it I laughed, I honestly thought he was joking, but it’s become apparant to me that he’s got a festering pit of resentment against women lurking under the surface. In some ways he’s the Nice Guy [TM], actually in many ways, somehow I managed to become friends with him without realizing how deep that insecurity ran.

    I think Natalia hit it on the head with the comment about hanging out with people who do something other than validate his resentment of the world. This friend of mine is the most functional in his regular group, I think my husband and I are the only friends who challenge him to THINK while valuing his good traits.

  19. Annie
    Annie October 31, 2007 at 11:31 am |

    I’m gonna vote for one of those meatheads who spends all his time in the gym and doesn’t understand why the ladies aren’t flocking to feel his muscles. Because that’s all it takes, right?

  20. Cola Johnson
    Cola Johnson October 31, 2007 at 12:42 pm |

    It sounds like it could have been written by my ex boyfriend.

  21. Esme
    Esme October 31, 2007 at 12:48 pm |

    What pisses me off about pricks like this is they claim to speak for their gender. I know men. I love men. Men aren’t like this douche.

  22. Hugo
    Hugo October 31, 2007 at 12:49 pm |

    Rose nailed it: “misogyny, and the desperation it masks…”

    That’s it. Bingo.

  23. bekabot
    bekabot October 31, 2007 at 12:58 pm |

    It seems to me that women almost cannot think for themselves. Their estimates of worth are based on other peoples’ estimates of worth. They don’t really find an object beautiful on their own. The object becomes beautiful when other people let her know that it is beautiful…It seems like success with women is equal to spending half of your life working to create a giant illusion, something vastly tiring and annoying, while sacrificing your own true self and your own interests.

    You know, if a guy wants to argue to me that men fall for women primarily on the basis of women’s looks whereas women fall for men primarily on the basis of men’s worldly success, I’m not going to give him too hard of a time, mostly because I’ll feel that he’s giving women credit for the superior matepicking strategy. Sure, I’ll disagree propositions like “Women never find men hot” and “You can tell a lot about a woman just by looking at her”, but I’ll keep my disagreement to myself.

    It’s not until he starts to moan: “B-b-b-but…y-you don’t lurrrrrve me as a p-p-p-person” that my annoyance starts to make the major grade. Shoot, fella, you’ve just told me what you love about a woman: you love her hair and her boobs. Are you all that worried about what she’s like as a person? Why, then, do you insist that a woman learn to be dazzled by your beautiful soul? Are you ever going to reciprocate? How likely is it that you’re ever going to be dazzled by her beautiful soul?

    I rest my case…

  24. Kyso K
    Kyso K October 31, 2007 at 12:59 pm |

    Rose did get it perfect. I was thinking of commenting on this piece of work myself, but between this post and Rose, I think it’s been everything’s been said.

  25. Mnemosyne
    Mnemosyne October 31, 2007 at 1:06 pm |

    It seems like success with women is equal to spending half of your life working to create a giant illusion, something vastly tiring and annoying, while sacrificing your own true self and your own interests.

    Uh, isn’t this what people are always advising women to do: construct an entirely new personality so you can attract a man? Because God forbid that a man know your real personality because he’ll be automatically repelled.

    Maybe the advice is bad, dumbass, not the women.

  26. Hector B.
    Hector B. October 31, 2007 at 1:10 pm |

    This guy is pondering the eternal nerd adolescent’s question: he wants to fuck these women; why don’t they want to fuck him? He sees no way to get into their panties; it’s too much work to be interesting or charming. If they thought he was hot, why wouldn’t they just jump his bones? If he were only able to empty his seminal vesicles, he could finally focus on his biochemistry homework.

    To borrow a phrase of a friend of mine, this guy sees women purely as semen receptacles. Instead of focusing on his needs, he’s going to have to put in the effort to understand what women want and provide it.

  27. Eurosabra
    Eurosabra October 31, 2007 at 1:25 pm |

    Very, very few people are willing to talk about the very real impact of male status and dominance on heterosexual dating choices, to the extent that a high-status male sparks interest from many women, of all types and backgrounds, while men of lower status often date within their own subculture. To fail to dominate often means less attention, from women society deems to be less attractive. (And if the man is being at all fair to his potential partner, he won’t attempt to use her as a status symbol or bargaining chip, or hurt her with putdowns about the supposed inferiority of fat women, or skinny women, or pale women, or tan women, or whatever variation of the moment is considered beyond-the-pale of attractiveness.)

    Entire subcultures of men exist trying to “hack” the process of attraction, taking their cue from evo-psych and the idea that emotions are on ongoing process, notwithstanding the fact that the men themselves often have tastes that are the products of their individual idiosyncracies. There is a concatenation of respect for societal dictates, pursuit of status, sexual desire, and an unholy melding of the personal and the political which has spawned the modern pick-up artist. Heck, a reality show can’t be wrong, can it?

  28. pizzadiavola
    pizzadiavola October 31, 2007 at 1:39 pm |

    success with women is equal to spending half of your life working to create a giant illusion, something vastly tiring and annoying, while sacrificing your own true self and your own interests. We construct our lives around nest-building. We’re like male birds building nests and showing them off to attract mates. It’s pathetic.

    Or…you could focus on your ‘own true self’ and own interests and see what women that attracts.

    Personally, I resent the implication that women must be interested in using men for their ‘nests’/status/jobs/income/resources. I’ve got a job and a nest of my own, thanks, and I don’t need to rely on anyone else’s.

  29. Betty Boondoggle
    Betty Boondoggle October 31, 2007 at 1:43 pm |

    “Men aren’t like this douche.”

    Exactly. Men aren’t like this. Whiny, lazy, self-pitying, ineffectual “nice guys” are.

    Women are attracted to men.

  30. seebach
    seebach October 31, 2007 at 2:00 pm |

    This could have been written by so many of the dudes in my major.

    Might I inquire what this is? For curiosity’s sake.

    Seems to me this guy’s complaining that he doesn’t want to deal with women. Fine, dude. Don’t.

    Problem solved. You won’t be missed.

  31. Jovan1984
    Jovan1984 October 31, 2007 at 2:16 pm |

    Here is how not to be an asshole:

    Realize that women will not like all men. You might be one of those men on her hate list. Do not watch porn for any more than two days in a seven-day week and tune out that Nice Guy [TM] image in your head.

    Well, that’s that.

    Oh and laides, please leave your sex toys behind. You don’t want that Nice Guy [TM] playing with them.

  32. Jovan1984
    Jovan1984 October 31, 2007 at 2:17 pm |

    Oops, that should say “ladies”.

  33. EG
    EG October 31, 2007 at 2:50 pm |

    the sound she makes when she sneezes, coughs, or cries

    I really don’t want anybody in love with the sound I make when I cry. And I’d be really suspicious of anybody in love with the tubercular sound of my asthmatic cough.

  34. jfpbookworm
    jfpbookworm October 31, 2007 at 2:58 pm |

    This whole article is a mess.

    “women are not actually attracted to men” is basically an excuse men make to not try to be attractive, or to justify their own “she’s got to be a supermodel but I can be a slob” attitude.

    I’m baffled, though, at the idea that smiling/laughing isn’t physical in nature but “the way she looks when she is tired or annoyed” is. Though I suppose it’s because it’s *how much* and doesn’t matter if his laugh is a Revenge of the Nerds style squeak-snort.

    It seems to me that women almost cannot think for themselves. Their estimates of worth are based on other peoples’ estimates of worth. They don’t really find an object beautiful on their own. The object becomes beautiful when other people let her know that it is beautiful.

    This part is interesting to me, not just because of the use of “object”, but because in my experience this criticism is much more apropos when it’s made of men. Women seem to be much freer to express idiosyncratic attraction, whereas men have to agree that the hottie du jour is the sexiest creature to ever live. I suspect it goes back to the idea that women aren’t *really* attracted to men, because if they were they’d be hiveminded about it.

  35. Jovan1984
    Jovan1984 October 31, 2007 at 3:32 pm |

    Did you hear about a woman who was murdered when a psycho man stalked her on Craig’s List? I’ll bet that the sicko who killed her thought that she was a bitch.

  36. Sycorax
    Sycorax October 31, 2007 at 3:45 pm |

    It’s interesting that this guy thinks that any effort he would make toward becoming a more likable person constitutes “working to create a giant illusion” rather than working toward personal growth. And at the same time, he totally fails to realize that most of the physical traits he lists as components of “love” are the result of a woman “working to create a giant illusion” by doing all the work our society expects us to do to live up to beauty standards. I’m guessing if this guy had a girlfriend, he would complain if she stopped creating the illusion that she’s naturally hairless, sweet-smelling, and dainty.

  37. exholt
    exholt October 31, 2007 at 3:53 pm |

    Women are attracted to status, money, how much a man smiles and laughs, how many friends and resources a man has, how full a man’s life is–how many “cool,” “exciting” and prestigious things he is doing or connected to.

    This dude is being disingenuous as superficial greed and materialism is not limited to the female gender. On one visit to a friend frosh year at a Boston area school, I got into a disquieting conversation with his hallmates where they were discussing ways to date and hopefully marry rich “Boston University girls”. Within a minute, I was getting increasingly annoyed at how it seems they were looking at BU women more as a potential meal ticket and nothing else. What was worse was their nonchalant reply to my question about whether they saw anything wrong with trying to leech off of another person without contributing anything in return. They just didn’t seem to care. At that point, I felt disgusted to be a part of the human species.

    Subsequently, I’ve met many other dudes who have felt comfortable telling me about having similar motivations as they thought “I would understand” as a fellow dude. Right.

    Just out of curiosity, is it the amount of money one has, how one manages that resource, or both that is important in evaluating potential dates/partners?

  38. M.
    M. October 31, 2007 at 4:20 pm |

    Oh yes, it’s real. I’ve known a lot of men like this, men who actually blame women because they are expected to make something of themselves (because women aren’t coerced into doing things they don’t want to do by society, right?).

    And what is he complaining about? He says that women stop him from being productive because he has to spend all his time being productive to attract them. Am I the only one who sees some inconsistency here?

    And yes, I fully admit that looks were one of my last considerations when looking for a mate. I looked for a man who was satisfied and complete where he was, not a man who centred his entire life around attracting women. I figured a well-balanced man is the least likely to turn out dependent, needy, abusive, or cheating. Perhaps this guy could learn a lesson from that?

  39. Kit
    Kit October 31, 2007 at 4:20 pm |

    I hate generalizations. I hate them somethin’ awful.

    I become attracted to someone based on a mixture of their personality and physical appearance. I like tallness and dark hair, for example. As far as personality goes, I think people who are respectful and polite.

    This guy is not single because of how women are. He’s not even single because of how some women are. He’s single because he doesn’t respect women. She’s single because he shoves the blame for his own social problems back on someone else. Nobody likes a whiner or an asshole. Seriously.

    Which is better? Selecting a date based on looks? Or not being so shallow, not selecting based on looks but rather deciding you’ll select based on personality, but pre-judging someone’s entire personality based on a few moments of interaction?

    Honey, I don’t do either. If someone comes off as a complete asshole, yeah, I probably won’t like them very much and AM making a judgement based on a few moments of interaction. That doesn’t mean I won’t give them a chance to show me that they AREN’T an asshole later though.

  40. ACG
    ACG October 31, 2007 at 4:27 pm |

    Just a thought to share with this poor, oppressed, lonely tenderheart: When I met the man with whom I am madly in love, he was wearing a teabag over each ear and looking for the tea kettle. I fell for him instantly. If I am, in fact, so superficial that I chose him for his money and status, and you’re still single, that means your status is less appealing than that of a college sophomore wearing teabags. Ouch.

    If, however, I actually chose him for his quick mind, sense of humor, taste in music, empathy, and personality, that means that you, too have a chance at finding a woman who will love you for your personal and individual attributes. There may be hope for you, young squire, if you can pull your head out of your ass. And I’ll start taking odds on that unlikely event now.

  41. Seraph
    Seraph October 31, 2007 at 5:53 pm |

    Funny thing. I used to have some Nice Guy ™ symptoms, though I like to think I never developed a full-blown case. Low self-confidence and the resulting difficulty getting dates (not completely luckless, though – maybe that helped), a hard time in a relationship. Resulting bitterness. Bought into the whole “girls don’t like boys, girls like cars and money” thing…except none of the women I knew were like that. Not a one. Not in my family – none of my mother’s (six) sisters married for money (although two did happen to marry rich…the least happy, incidentally). My father, his (six) brothers, me, my brother…all of us married, and it’s a common joke in our family (funny because it’s true) that “No (name) boy was ever married for his money.” None of my female friends were like that. They got into relationships for reasons that were sometimes foolish or shallow, but never greedy or materialistic. Eventually, the cognitive dissonance between “girls don’t like boys, girls like cars and money” and “but none of the women you actually know are like that” got to be too much, and I finally got it through my skull.

    Maybe that’s the difference. I interacted with actual women on a regular basis, and they were actual friends rather than people I treated Nicely(tm) in an attempt to get into their britches (not that I would have turned a one of them down if they’d been interested), and reality finally got through to me. Maybe this guy just needs to get out of his basement – and out of his Nice Guy ™ circle of friends and their self-pity circle jerks.

    All of that said, this guy goes way past “girls don’t like boys, girls like cars and money”. It’s like he resents women for judging men on anything but physical appearance, when I doubt that he’d be happy if physical appearance did become the primary factor.

  42. Destructor
    Destructor October 31, 2007 at 10:50 pm |

    Someone who does not smile or laugh, to me, cannot be attractive, no matter how they look.

  43. Tmyakal
    Tmyakal November 1, 2007 at 12:00 am |

    I can’t help noticing that a lot of the comments are that the guy should be more interesting and charming if he wants to be attractive. Now, as a huge nerd, that feels like a low blow. I mean, I like comic books and geology. I think they’re interesting. As it turns out, most women (and people in general) don’t, and those that do are embarrassed about it because, well, it’s super-heroes and rocks. I can keep a notebook full of clever geology puns, and be smart and charming up to my eyebrows, but I’ll never bump into a woman in a stony field and get to say, “Scoria bumped into ya’!” (If anyone uses that line, let me know if it comes off as charming.)

    I guess what I’m asking is, is “be more interesting” an acceptable response if a person is interesting, just about boring things?

    That having been said, I do think the guy’s a wildly illogical and idiotic schmuck.

  44. Hector B.
    Hector B. November 1, 2007 at 12:38 am |

    Tmyakal: you may want to focus your attention on nerdettes. Go to Renfaires.

  45. exholt
    exholt November 1, 2007 at 12:40 am |

    All of that said, this guy goes way past “girls don’t like boys, girls like cars and money”. It’s like he resents women for judging men on anything but physical appearance, when I doubt that he’d be happy if physical appearance did become the primary factor.

    Seraph,

    Agreed. He needs to get his priorities straight.

    Barring the few appearence conscious people, most people I know would actually find it quite off-putting if physical appearance was the main or sole reason why they were praised.

  46. prairielily
    prairielily November 1, 2007 at 12:46 am |

    Tmyakal, I really think there’s someone out there for everyone.

    My boyfriend is known in our circle of friends as a scatterbrain, and an oddball. He’s the guy who will think he’s lost something that he’s holding in his hand, and his strange comments have often ended entire discussions as everyone stares at him in perplexed amazement. He’s in a technical field and tells me all about his work while playing video games. He has trouble talking sometimes; he trips over his own words and stutters, especially when he’s excited.

    But I love every bit of him. I love how enthusiastic and happy and excited he gets about the nerdiest things. I love when he makes jokes, and I find them funny even though I know that by popular standards, they are incredibly lame. I love how whenever I say something dumb I can hear the barely suppressed laughter in his voice, and it’s not because he’s laughing at me, but because he loves all the same things about me, even if we’re not nerdy and lame about the same things. (My mother and best friend even had a discussion about how we’re basically the same person.)

    I guess what I’m saying is that by my definition, interesting is what you make of it. I love to learn, so I find everything interesting as long as the speaker is enthusiastic. It’s fun seeing what topic gets quiet, shy people to open up, and it’s usually something pretty cool if the listener is open-minded enough to give it a chance.

  47. Mickle
    Mickle November 1, 2007 at 1:37 am |

    I guess what I’m asking is, is “be more interesting” an acceptable response if a person is interesting, just about boring things?

    Yes, just so long as you realize that “interesting” =/= “you are always so much smarter than me, therefore I will disagree with you nevermore.”

    Please note that he is a biochem student (possibly major). He may or may not have been rejected by someone specific before, but it’s fairly certain that there are several women in his class that kick his ass grade and intellect wise. Women that are more likely than, say physics majors, to feel comfortable being women – rather than “honorary men” – due to the gender ratio within their classes. Plus, since the things that women do that he goes on and on about are not the usual ones (walk, jiggle, etc.) but the kids of stuff women do while sitting down in class….

    It’s not just that he can’t get laid, it’s that he’s convinced that if the world would suddenly see the light and do away with this silly experiment of educating women, then he’d be able to “concentrate [dammit!] on [his] biochemistry studying” and therefore get the status he’s convinced himself that women want above all else.

  48. jfpbookworm
    jfpbookworm November 1, 2007 at 9:08 am |

    I guess what I’m asking is, is “be more interesting” an acceptable response if a person is interesting, just about boring things?

    Absolutely.

    I don’t think it’s really possible to be “interesting about boring things,” not because boring things can’t be interesting, but because interesting things can’t be boring. And if they are boring to her, do you really want to date her?

    Various geeky things about me probably turn off 90% of the women in my peer group, and make me more attractive to the other 10%. I consider this an excellent tradeoff.

    I’ll never bump into a woman in a stony field and get to say, “Scoria bumped into ya’!”

    Ouch.

    Maybe you should stick to “Gneiss to meet you.”

  49. Torri
    Torri November 1, 2007 at 9:44 am |

    Tmyakal just so you know there are a lot of girls out there who are into ‘nerdy’ pursuits, I’m sure there’s someone in your general area who’s into comics and/or geology
    I myself am a HUGE nerd when it comes to comics, video games, fantasy, sci-fi and table top Dungeons and Dragons (hell I make jokes about people failing their Sense Motive roll or that someone has a Charisma of 18)
    I’m pretty sure that the ratio of women into typically ‘nerdy’ things is larger now then it has ever been, and getting larger hopefully.

  50. Marle
    Marle November 1, 2007 at 10:06 am |

    You know, if it was true that “girls don’t like boys, girls like cars and money” then heterosexuality would have died in the 70’s. Seriously, if none of us really liked boys, then once we could get money and cars all on our own, we never, ever would have bothered with men again. But, since heterosexuality obviously didn’t die, then that meme needs to.

  51. nell
    nell November 1, 2007 at 10:12 am |

    Tmaykal –

    My youngest sister is a geologist, as is her husband. As are most of her girlfriends – she’s in exploration with a *major oil bidness.* There are plenty of women in the field. And more all the time – they have excellent mentoring programs.

    As for comic books – dude, seriously, female comics fans are legion. They don’t always like the boyland that is the shops, but on the internet they are huge.

    I’m gonna guess that between the two groups – there is overlap.

    You need to stop assuming that you are such a special male snowflake that no mere girl could possibly find your manly interests interesting.

  52. Linnaeus
    Linnaeus November 1, 2007 at 10:51 am |

    In addition to seconding the comments criticizing this man’s post, let me also say that I would most definitely not find a drug that erased my sex drive to be a wonderful thing. At all.

  53. meggygurl
    meggygurl November 1, 2007 at 10:54 am |

    Tmaykal- as a huge nerd, I can say that you just need to find someone who can at least understand that YOU love rocks and superheros, even if she doesn’t. I love D&D and online RPing, my girlfriend doesn’t get it. At all. But she loves that I love it and encourages me to engage in those things. She reads fanfic like chain smokers smoke, which I just have never wanted to read that much of, but she likes it, so good for her!

    But, we are BOTH geeky for books and movies and learning new things. So it works out. Also, I can make music jokes with her. She doesn’t GET them always, but I can make them.

    I’m a femata, hold me.

  54. Seraph
    Seraph November 1, 2007 at 11:21 am |

    Tmaykal –

    This past Valentine’s Day, my wife took me to see “Evil Dead: The Musical” (yes, really. It ran off-Broadway from October of last year until a week after we saw it, and I believe it’s in Toronto now, or maybe touring).

    For her own gift, she asked me to get her the rulebooks to the Firefly roleplaying game.

    That is all.

  55. alsojill
    alsojill November 1, 2007 at 11:43 am |

    I would *love* to meet a totally nerdy boy, Tmaykal. I tend to be vastly geeky, but I find it difficult to express that in public. Just keep your eyes open for the girls who do grin and roll their eyes at your terrible geology puns, or for the ones who wander into the comic book shop to pick up the latest issue of JLA.

    They don’t always like the boyland that is the shops, but on the internet they are huge.

    No kidding. Every time I go in my local comic book store, I feel like a giant, flashing, neon vulva with legs. The guys who work there are very nice, but I just feel ridiculously conspicuous, which is not a feeling I care for, and even though I know other girls go there, I’m always the only female in the room whenever I’m there.

  56. figleaf
    figleaf November 1, 2007 at 11:46 am |

    First of all notice his assumption that women aren’t interested in *sex.* There’s a whole screed on what you’re supposed to be interested in *instead. Most of which aren’t even *bad,* except, in his view, because they’re what you want *instead* of sex, because you’d rather just shop or sit around talking about your feelings. Because sex? Only *men* ever want *sex.* Which brings me to… his second assumption that men are helplessly, genetically *drowning* in sex that he thinks only pills could cure it.

    Rose nailed it when she spoke of “the misogyny, and the desperation it masks” but the despair is right there in every line he writes. It’s hard to feel sympathy for monsters who not only create their reality but impose it on others and then *blame them for it.* But we grow up somehow indoctrinated in it and it sucks no less for him than for everyone it affects.

    It’s really frustrating. Tragic, frustrating, pathetic, and, of course, dangerous.

  57. alsojill
    alsojill November 1, 2007 at 11:51 am |

    PS Do you know why it’s hard for me to express my geekiness in public? Probably for the same reason it’s hard for lots of women. B/c of this:

    I mean, I like comic books and geology. I think they’re interesting. As it turns out, most women (and people in general) don’t,

    Women aren’t supposed to be into geeky things. If we are, it’s with a very moderate interest. The ability to identify a given X-Files or Buffy episode by name after viewing a thirty-second clip has, amazingly enough, never scored me any dates. The more people insist that “girls don’t like those things,” the harder it is for a woman who *does* like those things to feel comfortable. And yet online fandom is predominantly female. Obviously, girls *do* like those things.

    My friend’s asshole ex once said that “he’d never met girls like us” before, b/c he didn’t know girls were into things like Star Trek or whatever the hell we were talking about. We tried to disabuse him of the idea, but he seemed to maintain that we were unusual and/or mutated versions of femininity.

  58. Seraph
    Seraph November 1, 2007 at 12:18 pm |

    You know, if it was true that “girls don’t like boys, girls like cars and money” then heterosexuality would have died in the 70’s. Seriously, if none of us really liked boys, then once we could get money and cars all on our own, we never, ever would have bothered with men again. But, since heterosexuality obviously didn’t die, then that meme needs to.

    No one ever suggested that common sense could penetrate the Nice Guy(tm) sense of entitlement and martyrdom.

    The “reasoning” goes like this: yes, it’s possible for women to get cars and money on their own, but it’s easier for them to get such things from a man. Therefore, the most effective thing a man can do to get women is get rich, while a woman will, as this joker put it,

    (trade) her physical self to buy into the success a man has created for himself.

    In short, a woman gets the richest man she can attract, while a man gets the hottest woman he can afford. It’s the MRA line minus the paranoid belief that women are actively trying to trap men for their money.

    What about the women who do have cars and money of their own? Well, either they’re exceptions to the rule (Nice Guy(tm) talking to a female “friend” or an actual girlfriend: “You’re not like most girls!”) or they’re still looking for the right sugar daddy (thus the sadistic MRA fantasy of the gold-digging bitch dying old, alone, and poor, and the wistful Nice Guy(tm) fantasy of her “realizing what’s really important”).

    In Nice Guys(tm), this belief – along with belief in “the friend zone” and the belief that “all women want to date assholes” – originates with frustration: “Why can’t I get any dates? I’m treating these women so Nicely(tm), and all it gets me is them crying on my shoulder when the assholes mistreat them! Why can’t they see me for the prince I am inside!” Rather than admitting that there’s something wrong with himself…such as, say, not asking for dates (not guilty), or only pining after women who are with someone else or otherwise not interested in him and ignoring women who are interested (guilty – aren’t we all stupid as teenagers? But I started noticing before it was entirely too late – see above in re. “not entirely luckless”)…the Nice Guy(tm) tells himself that there’s something wrong with women themselves. Maybe they even know how he feels, and they’re deliberately stringing him along…

    As I said before, my salvation from this nonsense was the fact that I had many actual female friends, as opposed to Niceness(tm) targets. Thus forced to A) think of women as individuals and B) face the fact that my self-pitying beliefs were simply wrong, I managed to escape a full-blown case of Nice Guy(tm).

    Unfortunately, it looks like it’s too late for this guy to avoid infection, and if he’s this focused on the physical, he’s not seeking treatment. He needs an actual female friend, or at least a group of male friends who don’t echo his whining, stat.

  59. Camryl
    Camryl November 1, 2007 at 12:53 pm |

    I… I *think* what this craigslist dude is saying is that women gain something from a relationship with a man because men’s lives are so rich, and therefore women are whores; whereas men don’t gain anything from a relationship with a woman because women’s lives are worthless, and therefore men’s love is generous/selfless/genuine.

    I mean, is there any other way to make sense of his complaint?

  60. SingOut
    SingOut November 1, 2007 at 1:00 pm |

    So the things that inspire true love in him are the traits one can easily identify about a woman in a shampoo commercial. Yeah, he’s deep.

  61. Mnemosyne
    Mnemosyne November 1, 2007 at 1:15 pm |

    I can’t help noticing that a lot of the comments are that the guy should be more interesting and charming if he wants to be attractive. Now, as a huge nerd, that feels like a low blow. I mean, I like comic books and geology. I think they’re interesting.

    Interesting as in, “I really like them and maybe go on a little too much” or interesting as in, “I talk about them to the exclusion of all else”?

    I’ve recently taken up knitting. My husband has zero — no — interest in knitting. But he is willing to listen to a certain amount of knitting talk if I don’t get too esoteric and explain why something is weird/funny. Why? Because I’m willing to listen to him go on about what Leo LaPorte or Merlin Mann said on their podcast. If the person you love is interested in something, it becomes more interesting, even if you don’t start doing it yourself.

    Trust me, there are millions of us female nerds out there. One of the things that made my husband fall in love with me was that I was able to quote “Simpsons” episodes.

  62. Tmyakal
    Tmyakal November 1, 2007 at 1:24 pm |

    I, uh… wasn’t aiming for the pity-party that I guess my comment came off as, nor was I trying to say that women don’t like comic books or rocks. I mean, I know more female comic nerds than male. I was just trying to point out that some people get excited about things the vast majority of people find painfully dull.

    You need to stop assuming that you are such a special male snowflake that no mere girl could possibly find your manly interests interesting.

    And, wow… Jesus. Was I being an asshole? Because that comment’s like a punch in the stomach. Scoria came off so sexist and bigoted. (I’m a one-trick pony on the pun front.) If anything, I was trying to emphasize the difficultly of meeting like-minded people, not the difficulty of like-minded people existing.

    As for my question, I think it’s morphed. A lot of people pointed out that they don’t need common interests to love a person, but then what makes a person interesting to another? And, to get more to my original point, if hobbies and interests aren’t a part of that picture, or are just a small part, why were so many people insisting that the guy’s problem is that he was insufficiently interesting?

    But to clarify again, I’m not agreeing with the guy. I think he’s an immature idiot, and I agree with the assessment that he’s probably been scorned. He’s just as shallow as he claims to wish women were, but uses exciting key-words he picked up from bigoted Hollywood ideas of romance. It’s like he watched Good Will Hunting, listened to the speech Robin Williams gave on why he loves his wife, and decided, “Well, if that’s love for a fictional character who’s been married for decades as written by a pair of guys from Boston, then that’s going to sound like love when I whine about hypothetical absolute strangers on Craig’s List. And that’ll make me sound caring, deep, and, most important, legitimate. And then the women will come a-runnin’ from all corners of the globe.”

  63. Hawise
    Hawise November 1, 2007 at 1:33 pm |

    Tmaykal- somewhere, around a corner, possibly sitting next to a friend is a person that you will be attracted to but does not fit the ‘list’ that you have hidden in the back of your brain. TOSS OUT THE LIST. This is the first step in finding a partner. Just as many women have to come to grips with the fact that the wedding they planned and the one that happened are two different things, so men have to realize that the women that they will want to be around are not the ones written about in magazines. Talk to many women and find one that you like to be around.

  64. ACG
    ACG November 1, 2007 at 2:36 pm |

    Tmyakal, see above re: guy with teabags over his ears. Guy wearing teabags. Hanging from his ears. Twoo wuv.

  65. Seraph
    Seraph November 1, 2007 at 3:26 pm |

    Tmyakal –

    Some folk don’t have a lot of patience for newbies, especially those that sound like they might be defending the misogynist side of the topic under discussion. A lot of our local trolls have gotten started that way: come in offering what sounds like a reasoned, polite opposition…then turn vicious when contradicted in any way.

    If that’s not you, try not to take it too hard. Keep posting reasonably, and you’ll get reasonable responses. That being said, I think you missed our collective point pretty badly:

    As for my question, I think it’s morphed. A lot of people pointed out that they don’t need common interests to love a person, but then what makes a person interesting to another?

    A lot of us – including me – were trying to assure you that there are women out there who share your hobbies and interests. Some even gave advice on how to find them. The person you’re with may not share all of your interests – my wife isn’t a horror fan, so she didn’t get most of the movie-referential jokes at Evil Dead: The Musical. Fortunately, it was funny enough in its own right that she loved it anyway – but sharing some is a good basis to start from. You both may find yourselves developing an interest in the hobbies you didn’t originally share. That’s always a great way to learn new things. And if you don’t, it’s generally healthy for a couple to have at least a few separate interests.

    And, to get more to my original point, if hobbies and interests aren’t a part of that picture, or are just a small part, why were so many people insisting that the guy’s problem is that he was insufficiently interesting?

    The man seems to think he’s owed love/sex because….well, he doesn’t really say why. He announces that he’s primarily attracted to physical things about women (which is just a great thing to advertise about yourself to begin with), but he doesn’t say that he wants women to primarily judge men by their appearance in turn. He condemns women as shallow for valuing not just the stereotypical “cars and money”, but how many friends a man has and how full his life is. These are shallow things?

    He never says what he thinks the criteria should be, or what he has to offer that he feels women are overlooking. He just feels that he’s entitled. Women owe him love and sex…because.

    Because he’s such a Nice Guy(tm).

    And that’s not how it works. If he wants women to be interested, he needs to be interesting. Women are kind of like people that way. They aren’t the greedy succubi he thinks they are, or the adoring Stepford robots he wishes they were.

    A shared hobby is a good place to start. But so is a full life with lots of stories to tell. Or a mutual friend to give you a good word. Or a shared aspiration. Or simply being a unique and interesting individual who catches their attention somehow.

    Common interests can develop. And being Nice(tm) just isn’t good enough.

  66. Seraph
    Seraph November 1, 2007 at 3:44 pm |

    Tyamakal –

    Since you’re new here, I feel I should explain the concept of the Nice Guy(tm), so you don’t get confused by all the capital letters and trademarks.

    Being a nice guy is a good thing. Being a Nice Guy(tm) is not.

    A nice guy will hug a female friend and let her cry into his shoulder when she has a fight with her boyfriend because that’s what friends do. He may be attracted to her; he may wish that she would dump the bastard so he can ask her out himself. A nice guy is not the same as a eunuch, and non-Platonic feelings do not disqualify.

    A Nice Guy(tm), on the other hand, will hug the female friend and let her cry into his shoulder, but will resent her beneath his compassion. “Why do women date assholes and only come to us Nice Guys(tm) when the assholes treat them badly?” He will ask himself. “Why can’t a Nice Guy(tm) like me get a girl like this? Can’t she see how Nice(tm) I am? I would treat her like a princess! Why doesn’t she notice me and my Niceness(tm) when I’m right in front of her?”

    The difference is the sense of entitlement. A Nice Guy(tm) feels that he’s owed something for being so Nice(tm). In fact, that’s why he does his Nice Things(tm). Sooner or later, the woman he’s being Nice(tm) to will realize that she owes him. When she doesn’t, resentment ensues. I don’t doubt some MRA’s are created this way, but that’s another post.

  67. jfpbookworm
    jfpbookworm November 1, 2007 at 3:54 pm |

    I was just trying to point out that some people get excited about things the vast majority of people find painfully dull.

    Thing is (and this is what I was trying to get at with my 90%/10% comment), you’re not going to date the vast majority of people. Almost everyone in our society is monogamous, and even the polyamorous people don’t usually date too many others (if for no other reason that there’s not enough time.) So even if the vast majority of people aren’t interested in dating you (as I suspect is the case for most of us), there are still plenty of people who will be, more than you’d actually be able to date. Hell, geek interests work great as a way to pare down the list of candidates.

  68. Raging Moderate
    Raging Moderate November 1, 2007 at 7:38 pm |

    I can’t help noticing that a lot of the comments are that the guy should be more interesting and charming if he wants to be attractive.

    Yep. Kinda like some how some guys advice to overweight women having trouble finding someone is to “be thinner”.

  69. alsojill
    alsojill November 1, 2007 at 7:42 pm |

    FWIW, Tymakal, I didn’t think you were being an asshole, though I do strongly object to the “girls aren’t like that” meme. And I know this feeling exactly:

    If anything, I was trying to emphasize the difficultly of meeting like-minded people, not the difficulty of like-minded people existing.

    Depending on where you live (small towns are not so great for population diversity, even if it’s a college town), your shyness levels/social aptitude, etc., it can be really bloody hard to find someone who is somewhat like-minded. And if I hear one more person say, “Oh, you’re just not looking hard enough” or “You don’t make yourself available [what, am I supposed to wear a sign that says DATE ME?]” or “You’re just too picky [not that I’ve had any options to be picky ABOUT lately],” I will seriously throw something.

    Ahem. That may have gone a bit too MEMEME. Sorry.

    Shorter version of this comment: I feel your pain. :)

    PS ACG–your teabag boy sounds adorable. There should be more men in my life who might wear teabags on their ears.

  70. Dana
    Dana November 1, 2007 at 8:00 pm |

    Ahh, geekiness. I am so attracted to education, it’s ridiculous. I’m in the Naval Reserve, and was involved in an Anzac Day parade. Surprisingly, this involved getting drunk the night before the parade(s), having beer for breakfast, and beer for lunch.

    I was chatting between parades to a Naval officer I’d met doing seatime and his mate who’d transferred from the Airforce to the Navy. When the Airforce dude admitted abashedly that he’d done a PhD on the mating habits of sea cucumbers I think I was disgustingly (drunkenly) obvious in my arousal at the fact he was interested in something so esoteric.

    Why do you only meet so many attractive people when you’re not available? *sigh* Sorry for my lack of actual contribution to the topic; the geekiness description just reminded me of that incident lol

  71. Donna
    Donna November 1, 2007 at 8:20 pm |

    I’m betting he wrote this after being rejected by a particular girl in his biochemistry class who gets better grades than him.

  72. Hector B.
    Hector B. November 2, 2007 at 1:52 am |

    And if I hear one more person say, …“You don’t make yourself available [what, am I supposed to wear a sign that says DATE ME?]” …I will seriously throw something.

    I can identify with this: you can’t meet members of the appropriate sex just by sitting home in front of the computer. School is the best place because of the sheer numbers of single people with free time. Work can be a good place but workplace relationships are fraught with pitfalls: you’re there to work, not to socialize, your co-workers are noticing and gossiping, and if things don’t work out you will be spending a lot of your time and energy avoiding the other person.

    When I was young and single, I met people through friends of friends, volunteer work, and night classes (for fun). Other people had success through sports they liked: mixed volleyball and softball leagues, tennis, and ski club. Ballroom dance classes are very popular these days — you are constantly changing partners and every so often you have to stop and take a break. If you’re political at all I would suggest working for a favorite candidate.

  73. alsojill
    alsojill November 2, 2007 at 8:10 am |

    you can’t meet members of the appropriate sex just by sitting home in front of the computer

    You think?

    School is the best place because of the sheer numbers of single people with free time.

    I’m *in* school–graduate school, and “free time” is not something most of my peers have. (Not to mention the fact that half of them are married.) I have it, but only b/c by the time I get home at 7 or 8, I’m too tired to work on my dissertation.

    I know all the ways to meet people. That’s my point. It’s still absurdly difficult, especially if you’re shy, busy, strapped for funds, etc. People give you all these suggestions, but at the end of the day, meeting someone comes down to luck, serendipity, and a certain combination of time/determination/opportunity.

  74. Seraph
    Seraph November 2, 2007 at 12:01 pm |

    Yep. Kinda like some how some guys advice to overweight women having trouble finding someone is to “be thinner”.

    He announced on Craigslist that women are shallow whores and that he, in contrast, is a deep fellow because he’s focused on substantial things like physical appearance instead of a “full life” or “number of friends”. I think it’s safe to say that an attitude adjustment would make him more attractive.

  75. Hector B.
    Hector B. November 2, 2007 at 12:06 pm |

    I’m *in* school–graduate school, and “free time” is not something most of my peers have. (Not to mention the fact that half of them are married.)

    This explains why so many grad students marry within their lab. Still, I doubt that you’re working much more than 80 hours a week, and that gives you 88 more hours to meet people — all you’d have to do is give up sleeping, eating, and maintaining personal hygiene. The bonus: if anyone is attracted to you under those conditions, you’d be sure it was true love.

    As one final annoying suggestion: Women I know complain about being hit on in Starbucks when they’re only there to work and sip coffee. Check out the coffeehouse scene and pick one with a compatible clientele.

  76. exholt
    exholt November 2, 2007 at 10:39 pm |

    Still, I doubt that you’re working much more than 80 hours a week, and that gives you 88 more hours to meet people — all you’d have to do is give up sleeping, eating, and maintaining personal hygiene.

    Hector B.,

    I don’t know about you…but maintaining personal hygiene is usually a perequisite for initiating and maintaining good social relations with most people. I know few people who are open-minded enough to overlook signs of neglected personal hygiene. This was a reason why some acquaintances who majored in comp-sci had such a hard time forming relationships with ANYONE who was not so open-minded.

  77. Alara Rogers
    Alara Rogers November 3, 2007 at 9:15 pm |

    Tymakal, there’s actually a female geology major who is a comics nerd (and major league Star Wars fan) playing Munchkin Bites in my living room with her husband and my husband. Sadly, as the phrase “her husband” implies, she’s taken, but the specific combination you’re looking for does in fact exist.

    I would actually recommend to any male comics nerd who wants to meet female comics nerds that they get into reading fan fiction. The majority of fan fic writers are women (although in actual *comics* fanfic, as opposed to say X-Men movie fanfic, there’s a higher proportion of men than in any other fanfic fandom I’ve seen), and any person who writes will enjoy being complimented on their work. Get into fanfic, give positive feedback to writers you like, have discussions with people about comics and fiction, and you will have just catapulted to Most Eligible Bachelor status among a small subgroup of women. Find the ones in the group who also like rocks, and hopefully you’re set. :-) It worked for my husband, my ex, and nearly every other guy I know who reads or writes comic book fanfic. And yes, a lot of fanfic sucks, but a lot of it *doesn’t*.

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