Now not all Muslims have the mind-set of the Saudi Government. Not all Muslims are fundamentalist. In fact, I believe the Sufi branch of Islam is actually quite liberal (I’m not entirely sure about this). And I know that not all Muslims wear the veil.

However – I can’t get over the fact that women are treated differently. I know that the West has also mistreated women in the past (and present) – but that can’t be used to defend theocracy.

All I want is for all governments to be Secular. By all means allow women to wear the veil if they want. Some women really don’t feel comfortable taking of the veil, and I can understand that. However, the mere fact that men and women are required in some Muslim countries to wear different clothes annoys me. And yes, I’m aware that in the West men are allowed to take of their shirts while women are not, and that’s unfair (I personally don’t think anyone should be allowed to take off their shirt, man or woman).

My main problem with countries like Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc, is the fact that women are not seen as being equal to men. That annoys me. Also, they are a theocracy, which annoys me.

Secularism is the best path. It is the only rational path.

I’m a Muslim non-veiled girl from AUC, a good friend of Nora’s actually and would just like to illustrate how the veil has become more of a social tradition than a religious one. First of all, prostitutes in Egypt often don the veil. Women walk around in skin tight clothes and flaming make-up but still cover their hair. I know a veiled girl who drinks, smokes pot and publicly makes out with her boyfriend. Now admittedly, the last example here is a rarity but it does not detract from the point here. Women, in Egypt at least, have come to see the veil as a social requirement. Those of the lower social classes feel this pressure more intensely. Funnily enough, the rise of the veil in Egypt coincides with increased cat-calling and verbal harassment ,by lets face it Fauzia, disgusting leering Egyptian assholes. Now, a few decades ago women used to dress more liberally (girls, look at pictures of your grans) but could parade down the streets in peace. I, on the other hand, have to dress like a hobo and listen to my iPod on full volume while mentally formulating a strategic battle plan to avoid walking close to any group of men. Go figure.

I have always (and specially after that) been easy around women who wear the hijab, but I still have a hard time dealing with niquabs (When I’ve come across a wearer in europe or america, if I go somewhere where it’s the norm, it’s obviously my problem, and I’m the one who should adapt). The same way many women have been taught they are half naked with their hair on display, I have been taught that not showing or covering your face is rude, and it causes me a lot of disconfort.

Another thing I also struggle with are young, underage girls who cover their hair, as it seems to me in many cases, it may be an imposition more than a free choice. On the other hand some teenagers are very religious, and the regulations, like those at french schools that may help some girls scape a bit from paternal control, are probably frustrating many others who just want to fulfill their religious duties. Difficult. Has anyone here started wearing the veil when you were very young?

Perhaps they are chosing to loose the outward trappings of conventional society in order to see more deeply into themselves. That’s the traditional interpretation.

Frankly, I think if we all chose to not participate in superficial cultural fashions, the whole world would be better off. We’d be fighting off consumerism and giving ourselves a chance to look more deeply into who we really are, rather than spending lots of time and money trying to project the “right” image of who we want to be. (And using that image to get attention that we otherwise would miss.)

The person who wears a veil or a monks robe or the “plain” dress of the Amish — if they do it make a statement to others about their modesty or some other special quality, they’ve missed the point. The only point we can make, IMO, is to say to ourselves, “I am not the image that others see, and I’m chosing to live in a way that does not depend on others’ judgements of me.”

I guess that’s not the point, but with the death of hats they provide a much-appreciated contrast to a sea of hair.

I enjoy variety.

Also… there’s kind of two types of modesty. If Brad Pitt walks down the red carpet wearing a $100,000 suit and a $400 haircut, certainly that could be called immodest in a certain sense…

But if he goes to the Oscars clad only in a speedo, that’s surely a different beast altogether, even if the speedo only cost 50 cents.

There’s two different axes there.

They talk about freeing Muslim women from hijabs, I’ve yet to meet one who is willing to flout their patriarchy by walking bare-breasted down main-street.

made me laugh and helped me to understand.

I get enough guff from perfect strangers when I simply (and modestly!) breastfeed in public. Thanks for helping me understand a little more.