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18 Responses

  1. SoE
    SoE November 5, 2007 at 3:26 pm |

    It’s probably worth pointing out that Ahmadinejad’s quote to wipe out Israel is a false translation. And even if he had any intentions to do so he could hardly decide anything on his own because the Guardian Council always has a say, too, and the Supreme Leader, Chamenei, has the final word. As far as I know neither of them is interested in getting rid of Jews. A forbidden religion in Iran is the Bahá’í Faith but that’s another story.

    From what I’ve learned Iranian politics are pretty messy.

  2. sam
    sam November 5, 2007 at 3:33 pm |

    There was something on NPR the other day about a related issue – they were profiling the author of Among the Righteous, about Arab (I know Iranians are Persian, but the book is about Arabs) peoples who saved jews during the holocaust (mostly by helping to issue false identity papers). I was totally captivated, because I hadn’t really heard this story before.

  3. sam
    sam November 5, 2007 at 3:37 pm |

    The point I was trying to make with the last comment (before I hit submit accidentally), is that while the particular TV show is probably “fiction” as all scripted shows are, it has some historical factual basis backing it up. The most interesting part of the NPR conversation was about how many of the children and grandchildren of those who saved jews are secretly proud of their parents and grandparents, but that they can’t discuss it publicly because of the current political climate. Perhaps shows like this will allow the discussion to be more “public” in the future.

  4. MizDarwin
    MizDarwin November 5, 2007 at 5:45 pm |

    Opposing a state’s policies is one thing, but what do you mean by “oppos[ing] the fundamentals of a state”? What are a state’s “fundamentals”? That sounds awfully like “Israel shouldn’t exist” to me … and it would be hard to find a way that that sentiment is not anti-Semitic.

  5. Leo
    Leo November 5, 2007 at 5:58 pm |

    Any noninsane person understands that all of Iran, or any other country for that matter, cannot be anti-Semitic. But to say that many Iranians and the rest of the Muslim and Arab world are indeed quite anti-Semitic. The refusal to believe in the Holocaust yet willingness to believe in the Blood libel of so many in that part of the world is, of course, due to being brainwashed. But it exists in large numbers nonetheless. The rights Jews have in Iran are touted in this blogpost in a tone that suggests everything is wonderful for them. The fact that they are unable to speak out about issues concerning them without serious reprocussions puts all of those rights in perpetual jeapardy. Nor is the fact that the Iranian regime is attempting to systematically destroy the Bahai faith mentioned. It’s completely unreasonable to paint an entire nation as monolithic in any way. That is especially true for Iranians/Persians. But let’s not try to pretend that this is an all accepting progressive society of some sort.

  6. Leo
    Leo November 5, 2007 at 6:16 pm |

    A couple of more things. Apologies for my previous comment which I forgot to edit. I meant to say that it is unreasonable to pretend that much of Iran, and the rest of the Muslim world, is not anti-Semitic. One can say this without coming to the moronic conclusion that every Muslim/Arab/Persian is anti-Semitic.

    Also, I would argue that in the context of our existence large number of actual Muslim states which are infinitely more repressive than Israel at it’s worst as well as the Holocaust and other anti-Semitic events in history it is, in fact, anti-Semitic to say Israel shouldn’t exist. Sure, believing that no country should be any type of religious or ethnic state and that all types of people should be treated equally in all states is by no means anti-semitic. Yet the logical conclusion of such a utopia would be Israel’s nonexistence. . But such utopian ideals ignore history. So, in the context of the world as it is, if one’s belief is that Israel’s existence as a Jewish state is the world’s biggest problem, then one is probably an anti-Semite.

  7. MizDarwin
    MizDarwin November 5, 2007 at 7:52 pm |

    Historically, states like that haven’t worked out too well for the Jews for about 3,000 years or so, though. We tend to get expelled, killed, converted, etc. And it just seems a bit rosy to suggest that such things wouldn’t happen now, when they have happened consistently for millennia. Because of this history I see the foundation of a Jewish state as fundamentally a defensive maneuver. Though I realize settlers and other nasty folk don’t agree with that. I also think there was a good argument to be made, in the first half of the 20th century, for founding a Jewish state somewhere other than Palestine. But that is where it got founded, and history indicates such a state is needed. So what are you gonna do.

    In general, though, I really appreciated this post. I’ve got a severe love for the Iranian people and now there’s one more reason for it.

  8. Leo
    Leo November 6, 2007 at 11:37 am |

    A positive step, no doubt. I wonder whether anyone knows the story about how, exactly, the show came to be. I do give you props for bringing attention to it.

  9. SunlessNick
    SunlessNick November 6, 2007 at 1:35 pm |

    But, I’m not sure that I believe that “Israel shouldn’t exist” is an outright anti-Semitic sentiment. - Fauzia

    I agree that it’s not necessarily anti-Semitic – there are even Jewish sects that say it – but it does set off alarm bells.

    … a state where Palestinians and Israelis, Arabs, Jews, Muslims, Christians, can all live together without it having to be a Jewish state.

    Israel makes a lot of effort to be such a state; it’s government might be dominated by Jews, but it’s run more on secular priciples than religious ones. (AFAIK)

  10. Hector B.
    Hector B. November 6, 2007 at 3:01 pm |

    a state where Palestinians and Israelis, Arabs, Jews, Muslims, Christians, can all live together without it having to be a Jewish state.

    Israel makes a lot of effort to be such a state; it’s government might be dominated by Jews, but it’s run more on secular priciples than religious ones.

    Israel works as a Jewish state at the present time because it’s 80% Jewish. Since the rest of the world’s Jews are pretty happy where they are, Israel will have to both encourage its Jews to reproduce, and discourage non-Jewish immigrants, if they want to maintain this majority.

  11. Tara
    Tara November 6, 2007 at 6:31 pm |

    Growing up Jewish, I never got the impression of Persians as anti-semitic. We know there is a larger Jewish population that was permitted to stay there than anywhere else in the middle east, and the long tradition of relatively greater religious pluralism necessitated by the strength of the Zoroastrian tradition there. I get annoyed when I think people paint it overly rosy – I saw a BBC documentary on Youtube that went on and on about how happy the Jewish community was, in between clips that made it crystal clear that no one felt safe speaking freely.

    Still, I think part of the reason some aren’t so excited about this movie is that weak Jews have always been more palatable to anti-semites than strong Jews. It’s unfortunate that, in that part of the world, anything that tends to affirm the existence of the Holocaust can be said to be a positive step. But a movie that promotes sympathy towards the poor pathetic Jew (ish woman) being rescued by the strong, noble, gentile ____ to be repatriated as a regulated religious minority isn’t exactly, well, amazing.

    But still – better is good!

  12. Kyle
    Kyle November 6, 2007 at 7:01 pm |

    Israel makes a lot of effort to be such a state; it’s government might be dominated by Jews, but it’s run more on secular priciples than religious ones. (AFAIK)

    A state can call itself secular, but that doesn’t stop it from upholding overt and institutionalized racism. Ethnic divisions persist throughout economic and social life in Israel and if you ask any ethnic minority in that country about their human rights and their quality of life versus the majority, one can come to some pretty awful conclusions. Jim Crow and Apartheid are two different historical moments that come to mind.

  13. Tara
    Tara November 6, 2007 at 11:12 pm |

    Oh wow Kyle, thanks for bringing up the apartheid thing! If it didn’t come up in EVERY single thread about Israel ever, someone might for an instant forget about it and think that everything is just hunky dory in the middle east!

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