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	<title>Comments on: Forced Miscarriage = Murder?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:34:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Choice Words</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-140246</link>
		<dc:creator>Choice Words</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-140246</guid>
		<description>[...] Hat tip to Cara at Feministe. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Hat tip to Cara at Feministe. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Marle</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138863</link>
		<dc:creator>Marle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138863</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;You may have never dropped the case, but how would you have assured a conviction without evidence?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Without evidence?  &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;Without evidence?!&lt;/b&gt; There were 3 witnesses! &lt;/i&gt; What the fuck kind of evidence do you want in rape cases, if 3 witnesses aren&#039;t enough?

The California rape laws might be perfect on paper, but if the DAs think that 3 witnesses is &quot;insufficient evidence&quot; then rape is effectively legal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>You may have never dropped the case, but how would you have assured a conviction without evidence?</p></blockquote>
<p>Without evidence?  <i><b>Without evidence?!</b> There were 3 witnesses! </i> What the fuck kind of evidence do you want in rape cases, if 3 witnesses aren&#8217;t enough?</p>
<p>The California rape laws might be perfect on paper, but if the DAs think that 3 witnesses is &#8220;insufficient evidence&#8221; then rape is effectively legal.</p>
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		<title>By: Darleen</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138837</link>
		<dc:creator>Darleen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 04:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138837</guid>
		<description>Read my link, Cara. The DA has referred the case &lt;i&gt;herself&lt;/i&gt; to CA AG Jerry Brown for review. 

You may have never dropped the case, but how would you have assured a conviction without evidence?

I&#039;m not trying to goad you, I&#039;m speaking as someone within the system who has seen both its good and bad sides. And I honestly wanted to know what tangible changes you thought were reasonable and appropriate, and it appears that CA has exactly what you are advocating already in place. 

Life sometimes hands up shitty things, it doesn&#039;t make it a conspiracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Read my link, Cara. The DA has referred the case <i>herself</i> to CA AG Jerry Brown for review. </p>
<p>You may have never dropped the case, but how would you have assured a conviction without evidence?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not trying to goad you, I&#8217;m speaking as someone within the system who has seen both its good and bad sides. And I honestly wanted to know what tangible changes you thought were reasonable and appropriate, and it appears that CA has exactly what you are advocating already in place. </p>
<p>Life sometimes hands up shitty things, it doesn&#8217;t make it a conspiracy.</p>
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		<title>By: Cara</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138815</link>
		<dc:creator>Cara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138815</guid>
		<description>Yeah, again Darleen, I&#039;m not going to get into a debate about rape laws on this thread because it is not what the thread is about.  The idea that you think my entire understanding of the legal system comes from television is pretty damn insulting, but hey, whatever.  But let&#039;s just say that my version of the law would &lt;i&gt;never&lt;/i&gt; allow a gang rape case to be dropped by a DA &lt;i&gt;when there where three independent eye witnesses and the victim wanted to press charges&lt;/i&gt;.  The end.  And even if this was a rape thread, I certainly wouldn&#039;t get into a conversation with someone who seems to be implying that rape cases are indeed prosecuted fairly and proportionally.

Again.  The end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, again Darleen, I&#8217;m not going to get into a debate about rape laws on this thread because it is not what the thread is about.  The idea that you think my entire understanding of the legal system comes from television is pretty damn insulting, but hey, whatever.  But let&#8217;s just say that my version of the law would <i>never</i> allow a gang rape case to be dropped by a DA <i>when there where three independent eye witnesses and the victim wanted to press charges</i>.  The end.  And even if this was a rape thread, I certainly wouldn&#8217;t get into a conversation with someone who seems to be implying that rape cases are indeed prosecuted fairly and proportionally.</p>
<p>Again.  The end.</p>
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		<title>By: Elaine Vigneault</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138814</link>
		<dc:creator>Elaine Vigneault</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:36:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138814</guid>
		<description>GumbyAnne @ #10 is right. The fetus could have full human rights except where they interfere with the pregnant woman&#039;s rights. It&#039;s her body, her choice to use it to sustain the fetus&#039; life or not. It&#039;s not the government&#039;s choice or the fetus&#039; father&#039;s choice or anyone else&#039;s choice; it&#039;s hers. 

Right are not these all or nothing things. We all have rights up to some point. That point varies depending on the situation.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GumbyAnne @ #10 is right. The fetus could have full human rights except where they interfere with the pregnant woman&#8217;s rights. It&#8217;s her body, her choice to use it to sustain the fetus&#8217; life or not. It&#8217;s not the government&#8217;s choice or the fetus&#8217; father&#8217;s choice or anyone else&#8217;s choice; it&#8217;s hers. </p>
<p>Right are not these all or nothing things. We all have rights up to some point. That point varies depending on the situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Darleen</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138809</link>
		<dc:creator>Darleen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138809</guid>
		<description>Oh

Just for some perspective

County-wide, year-to-date, we have entered 69,862 misdemeanor and felony level police reports into our DA tracking system (I noted the number when I left the office on Wed. It took us to 12/28 last year to reach that number). Traffic infractions don&#039;t come through our office.

and it is &lt;b&gt;not&lt;/b&gt; Los Angeles County.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh</p>
<p>Just for some perspective</p>
<p>County-wide, year-to-date, we have entered 69,862 misdemeanor and felony level police reports into our DA tracking system (I noted the number when I left the office on Wed. It took us to 12/28 last year to reach that number). Traffic infractions don&#8217;t come through our office.</p>
<p>and it is <b>not</b> Los Angeles County.</p>
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		<title>By: Darleen</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138808</link>
		<dc:creator>Darleen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 01:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138808</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know the particulars of that rape case and tried to find something recent .. the articles state that while the DA is not pressing charges based on i&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_7297487&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;nsufficient evidence&lt;/a&gt;, the Sheriff&#039;s department was keeping the case open.

How would you change the law (and I gave you CA&#039;s relevant penal code section) in a way that would affect how evidence is gathered, evaluated and charges filed? 

In DA Carr&#039;s case she had promised to change her office&#039;s culture from a win-at-all-cost attitude. That&#039;s actually a good thing because DAs, Public Defenders and Private Defense attorneys are all considered officers of the court and their first responsibility is to justice. The burden of proof is always with The People. The defense only has to present reasonable doubt. That&#039;s the way our system works. Not perfect but would you want the burden to switch to the defense? That innocence be proven rather than guilt?

You can see what harm happens to paint all DA&#039;s as &quot;screw the facts I wanna win and I don&#039;t care who I destroy on the way&quot; villans with the Nifong hoax debacle.

I&#039;ve been lucky enough to work for the last nine years in a very busy, but filled with good people, DA office in So Cal. We also have great Victim/Witness advocates that go the extra mile. Sexual assault/Rape/domestic violence is treated very seriously ... one of the few areas of crime that is prosecuted vertically or out of a special dedicated unit. Also, the only area of crime in which the victim&#039;s name and personal information is kept out of the court files ... including off the complaint.

The media likes the sensational, so the wobbler cases get the press but all the slam dunk ones ...where the perp faced with irrefutable evidence pleas rather than take it to court ... go unnoticed.

Go volunteer at your local DA office sometime. Spend at least six months on the job, talking with the DA&#039;s and clerks and see what happens that never makes &lt;i&gt;Law and Order&lt;/i&gt; where stuff goes from crime to conviction in 60 minutes. I really wish a lot more people paid attention to the nuts-n-bolts judicial system. Maybe then they wouldn&#039;t be taking pains to get out of jury duty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know the particulars of that rape case and tried to find something recent .. the articles state that while the DA is not pressing charges based on i<a href="http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_7297487" rel="nofollow">nsufficient evidence</a>, the Sheriff&#8217;s department was keeping the case open.</p>
<p>How would you change the law (and I gave you CA&#8217;s relevant penal code section) in a way that would affect how evidence is gathered, evaluated and charges filed? </p>
<p>In DA Carr&#8217;s case she had promised to change her office&#8217;s culture from a win-at-all-cost attitude. That&#8217;s actually a good thing because DAs, Public Defenders and Private Defense attorneys are all considered officers of the court and their first responsibility is to justice. The burden of proof is always with The People. The defense only has to present reasonable doubt. That&#8217;s the way our system works. Not perfect but would you want the burden to switch to the defense? That innocence be proven rather than guilt?</p>
<p>You can see what harm happens to paint all DA&#8217;s as &#8220;screw the facts I wanna win and I don&#8217;t care who I destroy on the way&#8221; villans with the Nifong hoax debacle.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been lucky enough to work for the last nine years in a very busy, but filled with good people, DA office in So Cal. We also have great Victim/Witness advocates that go the extra mile. Sexual assault/Rape/domestic violence is treated very seriously &#8230; one of the few areas of crime that is prosecuted vertically or out of a special dedicated unit. Also, the only area of crime in which the victim&#8217;s name and personal information is kept out of the court files &#8230; including off the complaint.</p>
<p>The media likes the sensational, so the wobbler cases get the press but all the slam dunk ones &#8230;where the perp faced with irrefutable evidence pleas rather than take it to court &#8230; go unnoticed.</p>
<p>Go volunteer at your local DA office sometime. Spend at least six months on the job, talking with the DA&#8217;s and clerks and see what happens that never makes <i>Law and Order</i> where stuff goes from crime to conviction in 60 minutes. I really wish a lot more people paid attention to the nuts-n-bolts judicial system. Maybe then they wouldn&#8217;t be taking pains to get out of jury duty.</p>
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		<title>By: Cara</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138797</link>
		<dc:creator>Cara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 23:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138797</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I asked because I’m most family with how CA’s rape law works, which is in line pretty much with what you state.&lt;/i&gt;

Well that sound nice, but &lt;a href=&quot;http://thecurvature.com/2007/06/01/de-anza-rape-victim-wants-her-day-in-court/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;somehow the rape cases coming out of the region tell a different story&lt;/a&gt;.  I certainly do wish that you were right, though.  It would be nice, and the best news I&#039;ve heard in a long time.  But unfortunately . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I asked because I’m most family with how CA’s rape law works, which is in line pretty much with what you state.</i></p>
<p>Well that sound nice, but <a href="http://thecurvature.com/2007/06/01/de-anza-rape-victim-wants-her-day-in-court/" rel="nofollow">somehow the rape cases coming out of the region tell a different story</a>.  I certainly do wish that you were right, though.  It would be nice, and the best news I&#8217;ve heard in a long time.  But unfortunately . . .</p>
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		<title>By: chad</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138772</link>
		<dc:creator>chad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:26:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138772</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;And chad? Don’t try to tell me how I think or feel about anything, hm? Especially when you’re just flat-out wrong.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The first part of that comment was for Cara. Sorry that wasn&#039;t clear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>And chad? Don’t try to tell me how I think or feel about anything, hm? Especially when you’re just flat-out wrong.</p></blockquote>
<p>The first part of that comment was for Cara. Sorry that wasn&#8217;t clear.</p>
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		<title>By: Darleen</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138763</link>
		<dc:creator>Darleen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 20:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/23/forced-miscarriage-murder/#comment-138763</guid>
		<description>oops

family = familiar</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oops</p>
<p>family = familiar</p>
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