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	<title>Comments on: BSG Discussion Thread: &#8220;Razor&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:24:43 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: lizvelrene</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-139444</link>
		<dc:creator>lizvelrene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-139444</guid>
		<description>On the &quot;sir&quot; issue, which I&#039;m a little conflicted about myself, Ron Moore discussed the issue on his blog -

Q: &quot;Why does every one call the officers Sir even if they are women? I was in the military but I thought that every one knows to call female officers or presidents Mam.&quot;

A: This was something I took from Wrath of Khan. In that film, everyone called Saavik &quot;sir&quot; and I liked the way it played and the implication that the honorific had become gender neutral at that point. On Next Generation, we didn&#039;t encounter a point where a female officer had to be addressed with a &quot;sir&quot; or ma&#039;am&quot; until well into the run -- an embarassing moment for the entire writing staff, by the way -- and it started a fair amout of debate about which one should be used to address Troi during a crisis (I believe the episode was &quot;Disaster&quot;). My personal feeling was that there was something vaguely condescending about &quot;Yes, ma&#039;am&quot; versus &quot;Yes, sir&quot; in context and that by addressing everyone as &quot;sir&quot; it made a point about the egalitarian nature of Starfleet. It&#039;s certainly a debatable point, and Jeri Taylor, the executive producer running the writing staff at that point, felt very differently about it. Ultimately, we decided to go with &quot;sir&quot; and follow the protocol from Wrath of Khan. When I was writing the miniseries for Galactica, I decided I wanted to use sir for all the female characters and I even toyed briefly with the idea of calling Laura &quot;Mister President&quot; but that seemed like a step too far. Billy does call Laura &quot;ma&#039;am&quot; on occasion, so the term itself does exist in the Galactica universe, but the military invariably calls her &quot;sir.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the &#8220;sir&#8221; issue, which I&#8217;m a little conflicted about myself, Ron Moore discussed the issue on his blog -</p>
<p>Q: &#8220;Why does every one call the officers Sir even if they are women? I was in the military but I thought that every one knows to call female officers or presidents Mam.&#8221;</p>
<p>A: This was something I took from Wrath of Khan. In that film, everyone called Saavik &#8220;sir&#8221; and I liked the way it played and the implication that the honorific had become gender neutral at that point. On Next Generation, we didn&#8217;t encounter a point where a female officer had to be addressed with a &#8220;sir&#8221; or ma&#8217;am&#8221; until well into the run &#8212; an embarassing moment for the entire writing staff, by the way &#8212; and it started a fair amout of debate about which one should be used to address Troi during a crisis (I believe the episode was &#8220;Disaster&#8221;). My personal feeling was that there was something vaguely condescending about &#8220;Yes, ma&#8217;am&#8221; versus &#8220;Yes, sir&#8221; in context and that by addressing everyone as &#8220;sir&#8221; it made a point about the egalitarian nature of Starfleet. It&#8217;s certainly a debatable point, and Jeri Taylor, the executive producer running the writing staff at that point, felt very differently about it. Ultimately, we decided to go with &#8220;sir&#8221; and follow the protocol from Wrath of Khan. When I was writing the miniseries for Galactica, I decided I wanted to use sir for all the female characters and I even toyed briefly with the idea of calling Laura &#8220;Mister President&#8221; but that seemed like a step too far. Billy does call Laura &#8220;ma&#8217;am&#8221; on occasion, so the term itself does exist in the Galactica universe, but the military invariably calls her &#8220;sir.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: lizvelrene</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-139443</link>
		<dc:creator>lizvelrene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-139443</guid>
		<description>My boyfriend and I had a long discussion afterwards about how Adama could easily have gone the same way as Caine, had they not had the Civilian fleet and the President with them. Rewatching the first miniseries, that road was certainly open to them.

Caine&#039;s absolute ruthlessness makes some sense in light of the hopeless situation they seemed to be in. Galactica had a civilian fleet to protect from the beginning; on the Pegasus, everyone was gone. For all they knew, they were the last humans left. So to take the attitude of &quot;we&#039;re gonna take these fuckers down with us&quot; makes sense emotionally. Vengance will slowly erase your humanity if you feed it to the exclusion of all else. Everything else becomes expendable. Razor showed how this could happen, and to people who didn&#039;t start out as morally depraved as they eventually became. 

I agree that the relationship between Caine and Gina could have been fleshed out a lot more. I keep hearing that there will be additional scenes on the DVD, so maybe that will play a little better there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My boyfriend and I had a long discussion afterwards about how Adama could easily have gone the same way as Caine, had they not had the Civilian fleet and the President with them. Rewatching the first miniseries, that road was certainly open to them.</p>
<p>Caine&#8217;s absolute ruthlessness makes some sense in light of the hopeless situation they seemed to be in. Galactica had a civilian fleet to protect from the beginning; on the Pegasus, everyone was gone. For all they knew, they were the last humans left. So to take the attitude of &#8220;we&#8217;re gonna take these fuckers down with us&#8221; makes sense emotionally. Vengance will slowly erase your humanity if you feed it to the exclusion of all else. Everything else becomes expendable. Razor showed how this could happen, and to people who didn&#8217;t start out as morally depraved as they eventually became. </p>
<p>I agree that the relationship between Caine and Gina could have been fleshed out a lot more. I keep hearing that there will be additional scenes on the DVD, so maybe that will play a little better there.</p>
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		<title>By: Catrala</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-139312</link>
		<dc:creator>Catrala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 03:13:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-139312</guid>
		<description>I loved Razor. How much of that can be attributed to my desire to see BSG on television again, I cannot say.

That said - Nicole, I agree with you on the some actions are never OK bit - which is why I find my own fascination with Cain and now with Kendra Shaw to be so disturbing.  The first time I watched the Pegasus arc in season 2, I was convinced that Cain was pure evil.  But as I re watched it, listening to the podcasts or in despair because I want more BSG and I want it now, I found myself warming to the character.  There is something about her, perhaps charisma? that fascinates me, though I still personally condemn her actions. 

Now that I&#039;m thinking about it a bit more, my reactions to Cain and Kendra, but really more Kendra than Cain, are very similar to my reactions to Starbuck.  It took me a few episodes to warm to Kara Thrace, but now she&#039;s my favorite character in the show, for many reasons.  i&#039;ll have to think on it a bit more, but I think that Kendra&#039;s character shows resonances of aspects of Kara&#039;s character that fascinate me and in the end make her my most favorite of all of the characters. Now I wish that Kendra hadn&#039;t blown herself up... and DUDE Season 4 needs to get here ASAP. Harbringer of death, end of humanity, the apocalype? Kara Thrace? I&#039;m so there.

A few more short commentaries:

- Trying to explain the time jumps to my parents, who saw the original series and have only seen an episode here or there of the reimagined series was hellishly difficult.

- I liked seeing Six/Gina impersonating a human, it&#039;s been awhile.

- Why o why did Lee have to say the words &quot;Black Market&quot;? I like to pretend that episode never happened.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I loved Razor. How much of that can be attributed to my desire to see BSG on television again, I cannot say.</p>
<p>That said &#8211; Nicole, I agree with you on the some actions are never OK bit &#8211; which is why I find my own fascination with Cain and now with Kendra Shaw to be so disturbing.  The first time I watched the Pegasus arc in season 2, I was convinced that Cain was pure evil.  But as I re watched it, listening to the podcasts or in despair because I want more BSG and I want it now, I found myself warming to the character.  There is something about her, perhaps charisma? that fascinates me, though I still personally condemn her actions. </p>
<p>Now that I&#8217;m thinking about it a bit more, my reactions to Cain and Kendra, but really more Kendra than Cain, are very similar to my reactions to Starbuck.  It took me a few episodes to warm to Kara Thrace, but now she&#8217;s my favorite character in the show, for many reasons.  i&#8217;ll have to think on it a bit more, but I think that Kendra&#8217;s character shows resonances of aspects of Kara&#8217;s character that fascinate me and in the end make her my most favorite of all of the characters. Now I wish that Kendra hadn&#8217;t blown herself up&#8230; and DUDE Season 4 needs to get here ASAP. Harbringer of death, end of humanity, the apocalype? Kara Thrace? I&#8217;m so there.</p>
<p>A few more short commentaries:</p>
<p>- Trying to explain the time jumps to my parents, who saw the original series and have only seen an episode here or there of the reimagined series was hellishly difficult.</p>
<p>- I liked seeing Six/Gina impersonating a human, it&#8217;s been awhile.</p>
<p>- Why o why did Lee have to say the words &#8220;Black Market&#8221;? I like to pretend that episode never happened.</p>
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		<title>By: Felicia</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-138992</link>
		<dc:creator>Felicia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 02:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-138992</guid>
		<description>I was pleasantly surprised that there were relevant plot details in Razor.  Is Kara a Cylon?  If she&#039;s not going to lead them to Earth, then where?  Also, have the latest model Cylons gone rogue, as intimated by the hybrid to Shaw at the end?  I thought it was fascinating and right on that the Cylons apparently worship a hybrid.  Up until Razor, I wasn&#039;t sure who the God was that the Cylons referred to.  As I watch BSG, I often wonder how much of what happens is part of a detailed plan by the Cylons.  How well have the Cylons planned everything out?  Of course, I don&#039;t really understand what they are trying to do . . . do they want to destroy humans?  What about on New Caprica, when they seemed to want peace?  Has that faction of Cylons lost?  It doesn&#039;t make sense to me that the Cylons would want to eliminate humanity.  It seems more probably that they want to dominate.  Unless they fear the humans can wipe them out.  In short, I&#039;m counting the days until Season 4.

I agree that the movie was disjointed, but I at least it provided food for thought.  There were many interesting concepts that weren&#039;t properly fleshed out, which was the main problem with the movie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was pleasantly surprised that there were relevant plot details in Razor.  Is Kara a Cylon?  If she&#8217;s not going to lead them to Earth, then where?  Also, have the latest model Cylons gone rogue, as intimated by the hybrid to Shaw at the end?  I thought it was fascinating and right on that the Cylons apparently worship a hybrid.  Up until Razor, I wasn&#8217;t sure who the God was that the Cylons referred to.  As I watch BSG, I often wonder how much of what happens is part of a detailed plan by the Cylons.  How well have the Cylons planned everything out?  Of course, I don&#8217;t really understand what they are trying to do . . . do they want to destroy humans?  What about on New Caprica, when they seemed to want peace?  Has that faction of Cylons lost?  It doesn&#8217;t make sense to me that the Cylons would want to eliminate humanity.  It seems more probably that they want to dominate.  Unless they fear the humans can wipe them out.  In short, I&#8217;m counting the days until Season 4.</p>
<p>I agree that the movie was disjointed, but I at least it provided food for thought.  There were many interesting concepts that weren&#8217;t properly fleshed out, which was the main problem with the movie.</p>
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		<title>By: LC</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-138947</link>
		<dc:creator>LC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-138947</guid>
		<description>I was sorely disappointed by it. 

The whole Kendra storyline was boring for me, I would have been far more intrigued by them just running with the Caine backstory and giving it more time. I think everything (especially the Helena/Gina story) was shortchanged by doing it this way.

I had also hoped that it might be &quot;the story of the Pegasus&quot;, allowing us to see stuff from mid Season 2 to Season 3 onwards from another perspective that might make the reveal at the end of Season 3 make more sense. 

The creepy Hybrid ending was nice, of course, and plays more with the whole &#039;The show is all about Freewill&#039; idea.

The old-school cylons were just candy fan-service to the fans, though, and I loved every minute of it. (Especially them gracing us with a &quot;By Your Command.&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was sorely disappointed by it. </p>
<p>The whole Kendra storyline was boring for me, I would have been far more intrigued by them just running with the Caine backstory and giving it more time. I think everything (especially the Helena/Gina story) was shortchanged by doing it this way.</p>
<p>I had also hoped that it might be &#8220;the story of the Pegasus&#8221;, allowing us to see stuff from mid Season 2 to Season 3 onwards from another perspective that might make the reveal at the end of Season 3 make more sense. </p>
<p>The creepy Hybrid ending was nice, of course, and plays more with the whole &#8216;The show is all about Freewill&#8217; idea.</p>
<p>The old-school cylons were just candy fan-service to the fans, though, and I loved every minute of it. (Especially them gracing us with a &#8220;By Your Command.&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: cooper</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-138876</link>
		<dc:creator>cooper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-138876</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Is anyone else continually distracted by the non-gender specific use of “Sir”? I can’t decide whether or not I like it, but it always distracts me when used for a female superior.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yeah, I just don&#039;t know. Isn&#039;t that just kind of a pro-forma thing in Sci Fi? Star Trek has adopted that model from TNG onward, with the odd exception of Janeway, who in the Voyager pilot made a point of wanting to be called ma&#039;am. *That* whole thing was one of the many many shitty points of that show, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Is anyone else continually distracted by the non-gender specific use of “Sir”? I can’t decide whether or not I like it, but it always distracts me when used for a female superior.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yeah, I just don&#8217;t know. Isn&#8217;t that just kind of a pro-forma thing in Sci Fi? Star Trek has adopted that model from TNG onward, with the odd exception of Janeway, who in the Voyager pilot made a point of wanting to be called ma&#8217;am. *That* whole thing was one of the many many shitty points of that show, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-138860</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:22:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-138860</guid>
		<description>My first comment&#039;s still in moderation, but I wanted to add - Ailei, I totally agree with you about Gina and the relationship as a whole being underdeveloped, and the disturbingly smoking hotness of little Billy Adama.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My first comment&#8217;s still in moderation, but I wanted to add &#8211; Ailei, I totally agree with you about Gina and the relationship as a whole being underdeveloped, and the disturbingly smoking hotness of little Billy Adama.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-138859</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 14:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-138859</guid>
		<description>Hi, writers?  When you make a point of blatantly inserting rape into a narrative, you actually do have a responsibility to the segment of your audience for whom that means something.  I&#039;d appreciate you not linking it directly to lesbian revenge/punishment for a sexual crime, as if that&#039;s the only reason why it would&#039;ve possibly happened and a more &quot;humanizing,&quot; &quot;understandable&quot; view of Cain for ordering it.

I hated every inch of this movie.  Sorry.  It turns out I&#039;m this awful secret moral absolutist who believes some decisions are &lt;i&gt;never okay&lt;/i&gt;, and I don&#039;t appreciate being told to sympathize with people who rejected their own humanity.

On the plus side, Kara&#039;s the herald of the apocalypse and harbinger of death.  Oh my god, is it March yet?

&lt;blockquote&gt;Is anyone else continually distracted by the non-gender specific use of “Sir”? I can’t decide whether or not I like it, but it always distracts me when used for a female superior.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I&#039;ve actually heard that discussed on a commentary once.  It&#039;s gotten to the point where I don&#039;t really notice it, but it was interesting -- the creator acknowledged that there was no non-gendered or female equivalent that carries the same weight as &quot;sir&quot; (&quot;ma&#039;am&quot; seems just slightly more condescending or matronly) so they made the choice to call everyone &quot;sir&quot; to keep it egalitarian. (They debated &quot;Madam President&quot; for the same raeson, but ultimately went with it instead of Mister.) Yeah, it&#039;s egalitarian by adopting the male version as the default, but it&#039;s a cultural bias most of the audience probably wouldn&#039;t have been able to get past otherwise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, writers?  When you make a point of blatantly inserting rape into a narrative, you actually do have a responsibility to the segment of your audience for whom that means something.  I&#8217;d appreciate you not linking it directly to lesbian revenge/punishment for a sexual crime, as if that&#8217;s the only reason why it would&#8217;ve possibly happened and a more &#8220;humanizing,&#8221; &#8220;understandable&#8221; view of Cain for ordering it.</p>
<p>I hated every inch of this movie.  Sorry.  It turns out I&#8217;m this awful secret moral absolutist who believes some decisions are <i>never okay</i>, and I don&#8217;t appreciate being told to sympathize with people who rejected their own humanity.</p>
<p>On the plus side, Kara&#8217;s the herald of the apocalypse and harbinger of death.  Oh my god, is it March yet?</p>
<blockquote><p>Is anyone else continually distracted by the non-gender specific use of “Sir”? I can’t decide whether or not I like it, but it always distracts me when used for a female superior.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;ve actually heard that discussed on a commentary once.  It&#8217;s gotten to the point where I don&#8217;t really notice it, but it was interesting &#8212; the creator acknowledged that there was no non-gendered or female equivalent that carries the same weight as &#8220;sir&#8221; (&#8220;ma&#8217;am&#8221; seems just slightly more condescending or matronly) so they made the choice to call everyone &#8220;sir&#8221; to keep it egalitarian. (They debated &#8220;Madam President&#8221; for the same raeson, but ultimately went with it instead of Mister.) Yeah, it&#8217;s egalitarian by adopting the male version as the default, but it&#8217;s a cultural bias most of the audience probably wouldn&#8217;t have been able to get past otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: Nell</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-138834</link>
		<dc:creator>Nell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 04:00:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-138834</guid>
		<description>I was disappointed in Razor.  It was great to see BSG again, but it totally does not make up for how SciFi Channel is frakking us with the Season 3 DVDs and Season 4.  I felt the whole thing was very disjointed, taking place in three different timeframes, not to mention the main story taking place in the past from our point of view.  I liked the reveal of the relationship between Caine and Gina, but I felt like that should have been fleshed out more.  The new girl was okay, but I felt I had nothing invested in her, so I didn&#039;t really care what happened to her.  I wanted to see more about what turned the crew of Pegasus into such monsters, instead of simply showing stuff we already knew, albeit in more detail.  I would have enjoyed it more if this had been stuck in the middle of a season, but as a big event presented to us so that we forget that we are waiting a year for the DVDs and the new season, with the newest season possibly split over two years...it just didn&#039;t work for me, especially as I don&#039;t really see it affecting any of the storylines in the upcoming season.

But I&#039;m still totally going to watch it every day for the rest of the week.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was disappointed in Razor.  It was great to see BSG again, but it totally does not make up for how SciFi Channel is frakking us with the Season 3 DVDs and Season 4.  I felt the whole thing was very disjointed, taking place in three different timeframes, not to mention the main story taking place in the past from our point of view.  I liked the reveal of the relationship between Caine and Gina, but I felt like that should have been fleshed out more.  The new girl was okay, but I felt I had nothing invested in her, so I didn&#8217;t really care what happened to her.  I wanted to see more about what turned the crew of Pegasus into such monsters, instead of simply showing stuff we already knew, albeit in more detail.  I would have enjoyed it more if this had been stuck in the middle of a season, but as a big event presented to us so that we forget that we are waiting a year for the DVDs and the new season, with the newest season possibly split over two years&#8230;it just didn&#8217;t work for me, especially as I don&#8217;t really see it affecting any of the storylines in the upcoming season.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m still totally going to watch it every day for the rest of the week.</p>
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		<title>By: Roxie</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-138831</link>
		<dc:creator>Roxie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 03:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/25/bsg-discussion-thread-razor/#comment-138831</guid>
		<description>OH! I finally get it! Battle Star Galactica!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OH! I finally get it! Battle Star Galactica!</p>
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