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	<title>Comments on: Soviet Capital</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:12:24 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: exholt</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139539</link>
		<dc:creator>exholt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139539</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Also, there is a smug Western tendency to denigrate the the FSU (and ex-Yugoslavia, though to a much lesser extent because it was very different) without having an understanding of what those societies were actually like, or why, as is the case in many of the countries that composed those two, people look back wistfully on the days they lived under communism. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

While most of this smugness is as you described, that is not the only reason for the triumphalism mentality.  

In the case of immigrants who fled Communist regimes like the Soviet Union or Mainland China during the reigns of Mao and Deng, it is not smugness, but a feeling that long overdue justice had arrived when the old system/ideology was toppled and that some former persecutors are now getting their just desserts (i.e. Laid off former worker/peasant Red Guards who have been undergoing economic hardships or former Soviet military officers suffering unemployment and poverty due to political and economic reforms in their respective societies.).  

Granted, this view is grossly oversimplistic and revenge is not a healthy or morally just emotion...but it is a very human reaction to being subjected to long periods of officially sanctioned abuse before having the chance to leave.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Also, there is a smug Western tendency to denigrate the the FSU (and ex-Yugoslavia, though to a much lesser extent because it was very different) without having an understanding of what those societies were actually like, or why, as is the case in many of the countries that composed those two, people look back wistfully on the days they lived under communism. </p></blockquote>
<p>While most of this smugness is as you described, that is not the only reason for the triumphalism mentality.  </p>
<p>In the case of immigrants who fled Communist regimes like the Soviet Union or Mainland China during the reigns of Mao and Deng, it is not smugness, but a feeling that long overdue justice had arrived when the old system/ideology was toppled and that some former persecutors are now getting their just desserts (i.e. Laid off former worker/peasant Red Guards who have been undergoing economic hardships or former Soviet military officers suffering unemployment and poverty due to political and economic reforms in their respective societies.).  </p>
<p>Granted, this view is grossly oversimplistic and revenge is not a healthy or morally just emotion&#8230;but it is a very human reaction to being subjected to long periods of officially sanctioned abuse before having the chance to leave.</p>
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		<title>By: tannenburg</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139469</link>
		<dc:creator>tannenburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:28:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139469</guid>
		<description>Miss S, I think that &quot;smug Western tendency&quot; is part and parcel with the continued illusion that Capitalism and Democracy are synonymous. Certainly many in the U.S. tie them closely together, despite the many examples of unfree societies which have embraced market Capitalism and done well...I would mention Singapore, Imperial Germany (which did quite well economically and industrially despite having a quasi-democratic system based on oligarchic power distribution; it took a disastrous war to unseat the Imperial German regime, no matter what instabilities were inherent in its structure.)  It&#039;s instructive to note that in many cases of the development of Capitalist/Democratic systems that the &quot;Democratic&quot; part came first - a review of the development of the English Parliamentary system is a good start, or in fact a close look at the basically agrarian nature of the new United States in the early 19th Century would also be enlightening.

So...can the ex-Communist countries become economically Capitalist and yet unfree?  Of course.  Furthermore, it&#039;s another fallacy for the West to think that similar economic or political systems will naturally bring ex-Communist nations into agreement with Western goals and ideals.  Russia, in particular, has always had a very strong undercurrent of nationalistic self-identification as being the most &quot;ideal&quot; people - much like the semi-messianic point of view many Americans share - as being a unique combination of Eastern spiritualism and Western rationalism.  

In short - the people of these nations look back to a time when they were part of something powerful and important, and cling to the symbolism of that power and importance.  Just because they aren&#039;t Communist doesn&#039;t mean they are going to be our best friends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Miss S, I think that &#8220;smug Western tendency&#8221; is part and parcel with the continued illusion that Capitalism and Democracy are synonymous. Certainly many in the U.S. tie them closely together, despite the many examples of unfree societies which have embraced market Capitalism and done well&#8230;I would mention Singapore, Imperial Germany (which did quite well economically and industrially despite having a quasi-democratic system based on oligarchic power distribution; it took a disastrous war to unseat the Imperial German regime, no matter what instabilities were inherent in its structure.)  It&#8217;s instructive to note that in many cases of the development of Capitalist/Democratic systems that the &#8220;Democratic&#8221; part came first &#8211; a review of the development of the English Parliamentary system is a good start, or in fact a close look at the basically agrarian nature of the new United States in the early 19th Century would also be enlightening.</p>
<p>So&#8230;can the ex-Communist countries become economically Capitalist and yet unfree?  Of course.  Furthermore, it&#8217;s another fallacy for the West to think that similar economic or political systems will naturally bring ex-Communist nations into agreement with Western goals and ideals.  Russia, in particular, has always had a very strong undercurrent of nationalistic self-identification as being the most &#8220;ideal&#8221; people &#8211; much like the semi-messianic point of view many Americans share &#8211; as being a unique combination of Eastern spiritualism and Western rationalism.  </p>
<p>In short &#8211; the people of these nations look back to a time when they were part of something powerful and important, and cling to the symbolism of that power and importance.  Just because they aren&#8217;t Communist doesn&#8217;t mean they are going to be our best friends.</p>
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		<title>By: Miss Sarajevo</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139458</link>
		<dc:creator>Miss Sarajevo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:52:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139458</guid>
		<description>Stalinism was and is (see: North Korea) atrocious. But the USSR in 1987 was far different, and the human rights situation was not as bad as it is today. 

Also, there is a smug Western tendency to denigrate the the FSU (and ex-Yugoslavia, though to a much lesser extent because it was very different) without having an understanding of what those societies were actually like, or why, as is the case in many of the countries that composed those two, people look back wistfully on the days they lived under communism. This is a point that can be brought up without excusing the inexcusable and massive human rights abuses perpetrated (more in the USSR than Yugoslavia, but I digress.) 

Rapid economic liberalisation and hasty, half-ass democratisation (most of it pushed, or at the very least heartily cheered on by the US) threw hundreds of millions of lives into utter chaos in the 1990s. Wars broke out. People died horribly by the thousands. Today, the human rights and democracy outlooks in Central Asia are bleak, but hey! the market is doing super! Economic growth is through the roof! Oil exports are booming! And, you know, dissidents are being tortured and &quot;disappeared&quot; left and right, women have lost many of the rights they had under communism, inequality and racist nationalism have bloomed, but...but...exports! Trade! Kids in Tashkent wearing Nike sneakers and listening to Linkin Park! The End of History! 

Caugh.

And I&#039;m not even going to get into Russia. 

And look at the countries of the former Yugoslavia. Talk to ordinary people on the streets of Belgrade or Sarajevo and they&#039;ll smile sadly and tell you things were better when they were in their twenties. And that&#039;s something we should try to better understand. 

Our view of history needs an injection of nuance, and a quite few of humility.

Ok, maybe I am getting fired up by this more than I should because I am at a conference where I just had to listen to hours of civil servants talking about the amazingly bad policy recommendations they got from the World Bank and &quot;foreign&quot; (see: UChicago) consultants.

Sorry, Jill ...ranting again. : \</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stalinism was and is (see: North Korea) atrocious. But the USSR in 1987 was far different, and the human rights situation was not as bad as it is today. </p>
<p>Also, there is a smug Western tendency to denigrate the the FSU (and ex-Yugoslavia, though to a much lesser extent because it was very different) without having an understanding of what those societies were actually like, or why, as is the case in many of the countries that composed those two, people look back wistfully on the days they lived under communism. This is a point that can be brought up without excusing the inexcusable and massive human rights abuses perpetrated (more in the USSR than Yugoslavia, but I digress.) </p>
<p>Rapid economic liberalisation and hasty, half-ass democratisation (most of it pushed, or at the very least heartily cheered on by the US) threw hundreds of millions of lives into utter chaos in the 1990s. Wars broke out. People died horribly by the thousands. Today, the human rights and democracy outlooks in Central Asia are bleak, but hey! the market is doing super! Economic growth is through the roof! Oil exports are booming! And, you know, dissidents are being tortured and &#8220;disappeared&#8221; left and right, women have lost many of the rights they had under communism, inequality and racist nationalism have bloomed, but&#8230;but&#8230;exports! Trade! Kids in Tashkent wearing Nike sneakers and listening to Linkin Park! The End of History! </p>
<p>Caugh.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m not even going to get into Russia. </p>
<p>And look at the countries of the former Yugoslavia. Talk to ordinary people on the streets of Belgrade or Sarajevo and they&#8217;ll smile sadly and tell you things were better when they were in their twenties. And that&#8217;s something we should try to better understand. </p>
<p>Our view of history needs an injection of nuance, and a quite few of humility.</p>
<p>Ok, maybe I am getting fired up by this more than I should because I am at a conference where I just had to listen to hours of civil servants talking about the amazingly bad policy recommendations they got from the World Bank and &#8220;foreign&#8221; (see: UChicago) consultants.</p>
<p>Sorry, Jill &#8230;ranting again. : \</p>
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		<title>By: tannenburg</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139456</link>
		<dc:creator>tannenburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139456</guid>
		<description>Speaking of the Onion and nostalgia...

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29110&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;This&lt;/a&gt; has always amused me...and is somewhat on topic...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of the Onion and nostalgia&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29110" rel="nofollow">This</a> has always amused me&#8230;and is somewhat on topic&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bitter Scribe</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139438</link>
		<dc:creator>Bitter Scribe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139438</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I wonder how long will it be before this “Soviet Chic” goes in an extremely absurd direction….such as Russian or foreign “Capitalist Pigs” ...actually bidding on Stalin’s or Lenin’s embalmed bodies at auction?

&lt;/blockquote&gt;There was a &quot;Dilbert&quot; sequence where Dogbert buys Lenin&#039;s embalmed body from a Russian on the street for $10 (talking him down from $20) and uses it as a coffee table. The punchline: &quot;Hey, if I flip him over I can use his nostrils as pencil holders!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I wonder how long will it be before this “Soviet Chic” goes in an extremely absurd direction….such as Russian or foreign “Capitalist Pigs” &#8230;actually bidding on Stalin’s or Lenin’s embalmed bodies at auction?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>There was a &#8220;Dilbert&#8221; sequence where Dogbert buys Lenin&#8217;s embalmed body from a Russian on the street for $10 (talking him down from $20) and uses it as a coffee table. The punchline: &#8220;Hey, if I flip him over I can use his nostrils as pencil holders!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: exholt</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139421</link>
		<dc:creator>exholt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139421</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;….hahaha, and, by coincidence, we were just talking about them elsewhere, MIM, and a pal directed my (serious, clear-eyed lesbian*) gaze to this: MIM fanvideos! Rebel Grrl with…well, see for yourself. they are just so, so…fucked up it’s EXCELLENT.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

belledame222,

That video underscores the MIM&#039;s effective, but unintended parody of Maoist ideology.  Rebel Grrl rock music?!! How decadently bourgeois...a state of consciousness which most probably matches most of MIM&#039;s socio-economic backgrounds.  Pardon me while I rotflol.  :D

Moreover, I have a strong feeling Mao Zedong and his Red Guards would have seen that video as a most severe insult to the CCP&#039;s song and dance troupe&#039;s tireless efforts to raise proletarian and peasant consciousness, especially among us &quot;Capitalist pigs/roaders&quot;.*  :)

On the other hand, I wouldn&#039;t take his probable outrage too seriously. It is now well known that Mao Zedong treated female members of the CCP song and dance troupe as his personal harem...notwithstanding his frequent criticisms of sexual promiscuity as cultural contamination from corrupt decadent Capitalist societies like the U.S.**

* The dubiously honorific title of &quot;Capitalist Roader&quot; had been bestowed on many people...including some relatives and famous CCP officials like Deng Xiaoping.  

** Hypocrisy underscored by how Mao&#039;s personal lifestyle was more like the emperors of old rather than the &quot;man of the proletarian and peasant classes&quot; as portrayed in official CCP propaganda.  In short...not much different from your latter day Jimmy Swaggart or Larry Craig.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>….hahaha, and, by coincidence, we were just talking about them elsewhere, MIM, and a pal directed my (serious, clear-eyed lesbian*) gaze to this: MIM fanvideos! Rebel Grrl with…well, see for yourself. they are just so, so…fucked up it’s EXCELLENT.</p></blockquote>
<p>belledame222,</p>
<p>That video underscores the MIM&#8217;s effective, but unintended parody of Maoist ideology.  Rebel Grrl rock music?!! How decadently bourgeois&#8230;a state of consciousness which most probably matches most of MIM&#8217;s socio-economic backgrounds.  Pardon me while I rotflol.  :D</p>
<p>Moreover, I have a strong feeling Mao Zedong and his Red Guards would have seen that video as a most severe insult to the CCP&#8217;s song and dance troupe&#8217;s tireless efforts to raise proletarian and peasant consciousness, especially among us &#8220;Capitalist pigs/roaders&#8221;.*  :)</p>
<p>On the other hand, I wouldn&#8217;t take his probable outrage too seriously. It is now well known that Mao Zedong treated female members of the CCP song and dance troupe as his personal harem&#8230;notwithstanding his frequent criticisms of sexual promiscuity as cultural contamination from corrupt decadent Capitalist societies like the U.S.**</p>
<p>* The dubiously honorific title of &#8220;Capitalist Roader&#8221; had been bestowed on many people&#8230;including some relatives and famous CCP officials like Deng Xiaoping.  </p>
<p>** Hypocrisy underscored by how Mao&#8217;s personal lifestyle was more like the emperors of old rather than the &#8220;man of the proletarian and peasant classes&#8221; as portrayed in official CCP propaganda.  In short&#8230;not much different from your latter day Jimmy Swaggart or Larry Craig.</p>
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		<title>By: exholt</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139377</link>
		<dc:creator>exholt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139377</guid>
		<description>I wonder how long will it be before this &quot;Soviet Chic&quot; goes in an extremely absurd direction....such as Russian or foreign &quot;Capitalist Pigs&quot; hoping to go above and beyond in indulging their Soviet nostalgia chic by actually bidding on Stalin&#039;s or Lenin&#039;s embalmed bodies at auction? Wouldn&#039;t that be supremely ironic...albeit disgusting on multiple levels?*  

&lt;blockquote&gt;I just couldn’t think of anyone else who could pull of a parody that doesn’t look like a parody even though you know it’s one and it’s funny.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In MIM Notes&#039; case, the poor quality of the writing and editing was such that it became a pathetically unintentional parody of itself and the Maoist ideology it espoused.  What better way to underscore how one&#039;s ideological purity as the MIM Notes collective envisions it is the sole criterion for acceptance as a writer and/or editor.....sloppiness, incoherence, and borderline illiteracy be damned!  :D  



* Posed as ironic questions...not as an endorsement or approval of such actions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder how long will it be before this &#8220;Soviet Chic&#8221; goes in an extremely absurd direction&#8230;.such as Russian or foreign &#8220;Capitalist Pigs&#8221; hoping to go above and beyond in indulging their Soviet nostalgia chic by actually bidding on Stalin&#8217;s or Lenin&#8217;s embalmed bodies at auction? Wouldn&#8217;t that be supremely ironic&#8230;albeit disgusting on multiple levels?*  </p>
<blockquote><p>I just couldn’t think of anyone else who could pull of a parody that doesn’t look like a parody even though you know it’s one and it’s funny.</p></blockquote>
<p>In MIM Notes&#8217; case, the poor quality of the writing and editing was such that it became a pathetically unintentional parody of itself and the Maoist ideology it espoused.  What better way to underscore how one&#8217;s ideological purity as the MIM Notes collective envisions it is the sole criterion for acceptance as a writer and/or editor&#8230;..sloppiness, incoherence, and borderline illiteracy be damned!  :D  </p>
<p>* Posed as ironic questions&#8230;not as an endorsement or approval of such actions.</p>
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		<title>By: Linnaeus</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139367</link>
		<dc:creator>Linnaeus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:07:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139367</guid>
		<description>True, exholt.  I just couldn&#039;t think of anyone else who could pull of a parody that doesn&#039;t look like a parody even though you know it&#039;s one and it&#039;s funny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True, exholt.  I just couldn&#8217;t think of anyone else who could pull of a parody that doesn&#8217;t look like a parody even though you know it&#8217;s one and it&#8217;s funny.</p>
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		<title>By: exholt</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139332</link>
		<dc:creator>exholt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 04:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139332</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt; I sometimes wondered if that paper was parody from the same folks who did The Onion.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Linnaeus,

Unless MIM Notes drastically changed from the mid-late &#039;90s, the commonplace elementary spelling mistakes, inexplicably cut-off sentences, and the incoherence of the articles made it hard for me to take it seriously as a publication.  

In comparison, The Onion is a professional publication with none of the MIM Notes slapdash sloppiness and borderline illiteracy.  

I think you&#039;re really doing The Onion a serious injustice by comparing it to MIM Notes.   :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p> I sometimes wondered if that paper was parody from the same folks who did The Onion.</p></blockquote>
<p>Linnaeus,</p>
<p>Unless MIM Notes drastically changed from the mid-late &#8217;90s, the commonplace elementary spelling mistakes, inexplicably cut-off sentences, and the incoherence of the articles made it hard for me to take it seriously as a publication.  </p>
<p>In comparison, The Onion is a professional publication with none of the MIM Notes slapdash sloppiness and borderline illiteracy.  </p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re really doing The Onion a serious injustice by comparing it to MIM Notes.   :)</p>
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		<title>By: Linnaeus</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139330</link>
		<dc:creator>Linnaeus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 04:45:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/11/27/soviet-capital/#comment-139330</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But… but… capitalism is Jesus’s religion!&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Jill:  Oh, yes, I forgot.  Great wealth is a mark of his favor.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Linnaeus: MIM notes, oh my GOD. those people make the Margins look like an oasis of sanity and sweet reason. I think my favorite bit was where they were trying to explain how Catherine MacKinnon and some Satanist dude they met on the Intranets had some theories in common, and that was a GOOD thing, really…&lt;/blockquote&gt;

belledame:  I think we enjoyed the movie reviews the best.  Their strain to find something relevant to Maoism in a Disney cartoon was typical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But… but… capitalism is Jesus’s religion!</p></blockquote>
<p>Jill:  Oh, yes, I forgot.  Great wealth is a mark of his favor.</p>
<blockquote><p>Linnaeus: MIM notes, oh my GOD. those people make the Margins look like an oasis of sanity and sweet reason. I think my favorite bit was where they were trying to explain how Catherine MacKinnon and some Satanist dude they met on the Intranets had some theories in common, and that was a GOOD thing, really…</p></blockquote>
<p>belledame:  I think we enjoyed the movie reviews the best.  Their strain to find something relevant to Maoism in a Disney cartoon was typical.</p>
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