It’s only a problem for a woman to succeed at the game.

Fuck. You’re briliant…

This is kinda depressing but also… illuminating.

Thankyou.

when a woman’s decision becomes her own, irregardless of what either the patriarchy or matriarchy think

No decision we make to change ourselves is independent of the stereotypes of society. You are right, it is just easier to say “it’s my choice” than to submit yourself to examination for your choice.
with dark hair are serious, boring, etc.

On that note, is it ok to admit if I want to change how I look because society’s unfair prejudice will change perceptions of me?

All my life I have made decisions independent of both the patriarchy and matriarchy. Sometimes the decisions jived with what one or the other thought, but it was never why a particular decision was made.

I asked the question because I was truly curious about when a woman’s decision becomes her own, irregardless of what either the patriarchy or matriarchy think. From everything I see it’s seems to be far easier just to acknowledge in yourself that you’ve made the decisions you’ve wanted, and not argue with those who would tell you different.

If body mods are neutral, then why object to dark-skinned people using lightening creams to make themselves paler? After all, they’re just trying to capture something for themselves that makes them feel good.

Speaking as someone who grew up with one foot in a culture where skin-lightening creams are promoted as ways to make yourself more beautiful… I actually don’t think there’s an inherent problem in people making their skin lighter if they want to, anymore than there’s some inherent problem in people tanning themselves to be darker.

The problems are that

a) some skin-lightening products are actually incredibly bad for you, carcinogenic or contain substances that can fuck you up;

b) there is cultural pressure around this stuff, a beauty standard. Often the idea is that darker skin is uglier or lower class, that you won’t be able to get a job (see the recent spate of TV commercials from India for good examples for this) if you have darker skin, you won’t be able to find a husband, etc. This is obviously not neutral, and it’s wrong. And in many ways, there’s social pressure around having big breasts too, that I think everyone posting on this thread would agree is bad. Women should not be pressured to have light skin or big breasts. That doesn’t mean that it’s impossible for an individual to make their own decision that takes into account both their personal preferences and social pressures acting on them.

So yeah, I don’t object to individual dark-skinned people using lightening creams. I object to the cultural standards that say light-skinned people are better or higher-class. It’s discrimination based on skin color — colorism. (Not always the same as racism, especially in Asia, although there’s definitely some cross-influence.)

I read that comment the same way sophonisba did, like saying big boobs turning one into Dolly Parton, and it pissed me off the same way it pissed off sophonisba

I reacted about the same. It is a stereotype. One of many we could do without. One of the things I like about the intert00bz is that we get caught out on that sort of thing more often because we cannot see who we are talking to. It makes the words more important, and I like that. Although it is embarassing to get caught out for thinking things you would never have thought you thought.

I can have sympathy for her lived experience while also attempting to capture something for myself that makes me feel good. Because I might wish to be tall or Sarah to be bigger-chested, that doesn’t necessitate a “superficial, stereotypical understanding” of the hypothetical friend’s plight.

If body mods are neutral, then why object to dark-skinned people using lightening creams to make themselves paler? After all, they’re just trying to capture something for themselves that makes them feel good.

If it becomes a general consensus as stated in the article, that men don’t like boob jobs, what does it become if women still continue to do it?

If that becomes a general consensus (and like Peggy says I don’t think it is) then there will be even stronger incentive for some company to make even more realistic breast implants that are even harder to distinguish from breasts without implants. And I mean, that incentive already exists. It’s going to happen, just a matter of time. Then Details will publish an article about “whoa, have you felt those new better-looking more lifelike breast implants! You won’t be able to tell the difference, it’s awesome!”

p.s. Triggers are a reason to try and phrase things in a sensitive way — not a reason to avoid saying them at all. In other words, I think octo is right about this one, even though it’s understandable to read generalizations into comments about breast size or height, and probably a good idea to be specific. Generalizations like that? Generally not something you want people to read into your language.

Of course I would not tell someone she had no right to feel triggered based on her personal experience. I’d also tell her that my choice is not an approbation of her personal experience, but my own choice, something that felt right for me.

And I’d appreciate your not calling me an idiot.

I can have sympathy for her lived experience while also attempting to capture something for myself that makes me feel good. Because I might wish to be tall or Sarah to be bigger-chested, that doesn’t necessitate a “superficial, stereotypical understanding” of the hypothetical friend’s plight. It’s two separate issues. We can understand and by sympathetic to someone’s issues about X while still seeing X in relation to ourselves in a different way.

I used that expression in response to sophonisba because she jumped all over Sarah for something that was not about how X has affected sophonisba, but about how Sarah wishes X to affect her. The two are actually distinct, and a creative thinker can sympathize with one both parties simultaneously.

My problem is that people who scorn breast implants often lump together all women with big breasts in the “dumb and looking for sexual attention” category. As another buxom introvert, I was also bothered by the big bust = big personality comment because it plays to the same kind of stereotype. My shape says nothing about who I am, and equating bustiness with gregariousness or any other trait is as silly as assuming all fat people are jolly.

I’m just curious. Expecially knowing how important tits seem to be in this and the Pandagon thread.