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	<title>Comments on: Feminist vs. Feminist</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 09:13:48 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Roxie</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149352</link>
		<dc:creator>Roxie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2008 16:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149352</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;RenegadeEvolution said&lt;/strong&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;oh gee, jessica again? I’m shocked.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
And what exactly is that supposed to mean?

&lt;strong&gt;Loosely Twisted said&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;
I can certainly see the differences between the two sites and I prefer here to Feministing I even to the extent that I took their link of my links page, so there had to be a reason for that. &lt;strong&gt;You think your feminists but it’s just misogyny in disguise wake up and smell the coffee.&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Excuse me?&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>RenegadeEvolution said</strong></p>
<blockquote><p>oh gee, jessica again? I’m shocked.</p></blockquote>
<p>And what exactly is that supposed to mean?</p>
<p><strong>Loosely Twisted said</strong><em><br />
<blockquote>
I can certainly see the differences between the two sites and I prefer here to Feministing I even to the extent that I took their link of my links page, so there had to be a reason for that. <strong>You think your feminists but it’s just misogyny in disguise wake up and smell the coffee.</strong></p></blockquote>
<p>Excuse me?</em></p>
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		<title>By: Mnemosyne</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149246</link>
		<dc:creator>Mnemosyne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149246</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s been drawn to my attention elsewhere that I&#039;m letting my snark level get out of control even when I&#039;m dealing with people on the same side, so, the 15th, I apologize for comment #28.  You&#039;re right, we don&#039;t need to be going balls-out against people who are on the same side as we are.

That&#039;s one of the reasons I was glad to see the NYT article -- it seemed to me that both women did a really good job of defusing the situation and not letting the media spin it into yet another catfight story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s been drawn to my attention elsewhere that I&#8217;m letting my snark level get out of control even when I&#8217;m dealing with people on the same side, so, the 15th, I apologize for comment #28.  You&#8217;re right, we don&#8217;t need to be going balls-out against people who are on the same side as we are.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s one of the reasons I was glad to see the NYT article &#8212; it seemed to me that both women did a really good job of defusing the situation and not letting the media spin it into yet another catfight story.</p>
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		<title>By: the15th</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149244</link>
		<dc:creator>the15th</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 20:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149244</guid>
		<description>Everyone practices self-censorship all the time, if that&#039;s what you want to call it.  The same idea can be expressed in an infinite number of different ways.  If Marcia Pappas had exercised a little self-censorship by writing a soberly worded statement about why she thinks Clinton is a better choice than Obama for Kennedy to have endorsed, this whole dust-up may never have happened.  Most of us will disagree with a friend in different terms than we would with an enemy in order to avoid alienating the friend, although the actual substance of how we disagree may be the same, and I would argue that this is not quite the same thing as living under a fascist dictatorship.  I think of second-wave feminists as friends.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everyone practices self-censorship all the time, if that&#8217;s what you want to call it.  The same idea can be expressed in an infinite number of different ways.  If Marcia Pappas had exercised a little self-censorship by writing a soberly worded statement about why she thinks Clinton is a better choice than Obama for Kennedy to have endorsed, this whole dust-up may never have happened.  Most of us will disagree with a friend in different terms than we would with an enemy in order to avoid alienating the friend, although the actual substance of how we disagree may be the same, and I would argue that this is not quite the same thing as living under a fascist dictatorship.  I think of second-wave feminists as friends.</p>
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		<title>By: exholt</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149238</link>
		<dc:creator>exholt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149238</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The catfight narrative is never completely going to disappear, but it helps to show solidarity. And sometimes showing solidarity might mean saying “There’s a misguided press release from a feminist group that needs criticizing?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Self-censorship to maintain solidarity in a progressive movement is not only counter-productive in this social landscape as several other commenters noted, but also something that reeks of enforced conformism practiced in Fascist/Communist countries of the not too distant past.  This was the very language used by the avowed bourgeois Marxists/Maoists on my undergrad campus to minimize differences and squelch dissent both within their movement and with those who disagreed with their ideology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The catfight narrative is never completely going to disappear, but it helps to show solidarity. And sometimes showing solidarity might mean saying “There’s a misguided press release from a feminist group that needs criticizing?</p></blockquote>
<p>Self-censorship to maintain solidarity in a progressive movement is not only counter-productive in this social landscape as several other commenters noted, but also something that reeks of enforced conformism practiced in Fascist/Communist countries of the not too distant past.  This was the very language used by the avowed bourgeois Marxists/Maoists on my undergrad campus to minimize differences and squelch dissent both within their movement and with those who disagreed with their ideology.</p>
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		<title>By: plain(s)feminist</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149232</link>
		<dc:creator>plain(s)feminist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 18:52:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149232</guid>
		<description>You know, I&#039;m not in this feminist thing to make the media like us.  I&#039;m in it to make change happen.  Newsflash:  no matter what we do or say, the media will portray us as fools, at best.  Personally, I would much prefer to see us presented as fighting each other than as not existing (they still say we&#039;re in the post-feminist era).

And the NOW-NY response was ridiculous, and I am one who checked it out to make sure it was for real before I threw up.  I refuse to let that kind of thinking be passed off, unchallenged, as feminism.  Further, when we let shit like that stand, we may as well officially form a separate movement in which only white women will be recognized as women, because that&#039;s essentially what that piece was doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, I&#8217;m not in this feminist thing to make the media like us.  I&#8217;m in it to make change happen.  Newsflash:  no matter what we do or say, the media will portray us as fools, at best.  Personally, I would much prefer to see us presented as fighting each other than as not existing (they still say we&#8217;re in the post-feminist era).</p>
<p>And the NOW-NY response was ridiculous, and I am one who checked it out to make sure it was for real before I threw up.  I refuse to let that kind of thinking be passed off, unchallenged, as feminism.  Further, when we let shit like that stand, we may as well officially form a separate movement in which only white women will be recognized as women, because that&#8217;s essentially what that piece was doing.</p>
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		<title>By: the15th</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149216</link>
		<dc:creator>the15th</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149216</guid>
		<description>Yeah, don&#039;t get me wrong, I do realize that nothing&#039;s going to stop feminists from being characterized as shrill man-hating harpies or vapid slutty party girls.  It&#039;s a good day in media-land if we&#039;re not both of these things simultaneously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, don&#8217;t get me wrong, I do realize that nothing&#8217;s going to stop feminists from being characterized as shrill man-hating harpies or vapid slutty party girls.  It&#8217;s a good day in media-land if we&#8217;re not both of these things simultaneously.</p>
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		<title>By: Mnemosyne</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149215</link>
		<dc:creator>Mnemosyne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:26:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149215</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;No response, or a blandly stated disagreement, might have helped defuse the “Feminists vs. Feminists” storyline.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Of course, not responding or a bland response would have fed into the All Feminists Are Irrational storyline so beloved of the mass media, but I guess that&#039;s less important that showing a united front all all times.

The funny part, of course, is that Valenti and Pappas deliberately refused to attack each other or each other&#039;s group and presented it as a rational disagreement between two similar groups, so the NY Times wasn&#039;t actually able to present it as a catfight, much as they wanted to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>No response, or a blandly stated disagreement, might have helped defuse the “Feminists vs. Feminists” storyline.</p></blockquote>
<p>Of course, not responding or a bland response would have fed into the All Feminists Are Irrational storyline so beloved of the mass media, but I guess that&#8217;s less important that showing a united front all all times.</p>
<p>The funny part, of course, is that Valenti and Pappas deliberately refused to attack each other or each other&#8217;s group and presented it as a rational disagreement between two similar groups, so the NY Times wasn&#8217;t actually able to present it as a catfight, much as they wanted to.</p>
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		<title>By: mandi</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149214</link>
		<dc:creator>mandi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149214</guid>
		<description>I think by &quot;anything with the potential of making feminists look stupid,&quot; you actually mean &quot;anything.&quot;  The media will use &quot;anything&quot; in the hopes of making feminists appear to be in-fighting, too stupid, too smart, anti-sex, pro-sex, etc.

If Valenti hadn&#039;t responded, then the Times could have written an article saying something along the lines of, &quot;Oh, the new feminists are too busy having sex and drinking to even recognize what the older feminists are saying, blah blah blah.&quot;  Feminists (all women, really) will be lambasted for everything they do, and everything they don&#039;t do; to  self-censor in the hope they the MSM won&#039;t have ammunition to criticize feminists is a pipe dream.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think by &#8220;anything with the potential of making feminists look stupid,&#8221; you actually mean &#8220;anything.&#8221;  The media will use &#8220;anything&#8221; in the hopes of making feminists appear to be in-fighting, too stupid, too smart, anti-sex, pro-sex, etc.</p>
<p>If Valenti hadn&#8217;t responded, then the Times could have written an article saying something along the lines of, &#8220;Oh, the new feminists are too busy having sex and drinking to even recognize what the older feminists are saying, blah blah blah.&#8221;  Feminists (all women, really) will be lambasted for everything they do, and everything they don&#8217;t do; to  self-censor in the hope they the MSM won&#8217;t have ammunition to criticize feminists is a pipe dream.</p>
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		<title>By: zuzu</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149212</link>
		<dc:creator>zuzu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149212</guid>
		<description>Yeah, but the15th, unless you distance yourself from stuff like that, the media&#039;s going to attribute that kind of thinking to all feminists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, but the15th, unless you distance yourself from stuff like that, the media&#8217;s going to attribute that kind of thinking to all feminists.</p>
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		<title>By: the15th</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149209</link>
		<dc:creator>the15th</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 16:56:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/03/feminist-vs-feminist/#comment-149209</guid>
		<description>(By &quot;anything with the potential of making feminists look stupid&quot; I mean the press release.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(By &#8220;anything with the potential of making feminists look stupid&#8221; I mean the press release.)</p>
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