Comments on: “The headscarf is where we are stuck” http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/ In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:58:43 +0000 hourly 1 By: Alas, a blog » Blog Archive » Privilege in Action http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-207571 Alas, a blog » Blog Archive » Privilege in Action Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:52:55 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-207571 [...] I read this, I thought back to a post on Feministe about the headscarf ban in Turkey. The focus of the post was on Fatma Benli, a Muslim feminist [...] [...] I read this, I thought back to a post on Feministe about the headscarf ban in Turkey. The focus of the post was on Fatma Benli, a Muslim feminist [...]

]]> By: Privilege in Action « Modern Mitzvot http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-207568 Privilege in Action « Modern Mitzvot Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:47:56 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-207568 [...] I read this, I thought back to a post on Feministe about the headscarf ban in Turkey. The focus of the post was on Fatma Benli, a Muslim feminist [...] [...] I read this, I thought back to a post on Feministe about the headscarf ban in Turkey. The focus of the post was on Fatma Benli, a Muslim feminist [...]

]]> By: Peanut Butter and Black Coffee http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-165282 Peanut Butter and Black Coffee Fri, 18 Apr 2008 19:12:25 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-165282 I am a Turkish feminist, studying Political Science for six years now. I have been trained and brought up believing in freedom of thought, speech and act. I don't wear a headscarf. I am not in favor of the ban, but people need to understand some significant details that change the context in each case. First of all, the Justice and Development Party who has been in power for the past six years, the Party who some commentors would name as "democratic" did everything in their power to delay the abolishment of the law of freedom of speech and thought in Turkey throughout the years they have been in power. Now the law is under reform, yet the proposal is still very far from securing people who think and express their beliefs in any way. We are talking about a "democratic" Party that regards the ban on headscarf is the ONLY problem with Turkish democracy. Isn't the right of education of women under attack when the government advocates three children per family? Most of the members of the party married their wives when those women in their (early) teens. It is the men who pick their female party members so carefully so that they don't pose a threat of actual criticism. Within the very patriarchal nature of the Turkish society, women feel threatened and I believe they have every right to. It is not about the headscarf that perpetuates a threat per se, but it is the fact that along with the discussion on headscarves, what is really being debated is the "right of conservatism". The discourse of the conservative side is shaped so that what we are facing is some elite seculars who have been tormenting "poor conservatives" for centuries. Those who advocate the right of conservatism do this very pragmatically to overlook all the underlying fact that Turkey HAS already a very conservative society and such stress on the right to be conservative only bolsters the patriarchal taboos Turkish women face, regardless of headscarf or not. I think the headscarf ban is a very racy issue to publicize, but there are much bigger problems of women in Turkey if you are that much concerned about women's freedom in Turkey. I am a Turkish feminist, studying Political Science for six years now. I have been trained and brought up believing in freedom of thought, speech and act. I don’t wear a headscarf. I am not in favor of the ban, but people need to understand some significant details that change the context in each case.
First of all, the Justice and Development Party who has been in power for the past six years, the Party who some commentors would name as “democratic” did everything in their power to delay the abolishment of the law of freedom of speech and thought in Turkey throughout the years they have been in power. Now the law is under reform, yet the proposal is still very far from securing people who think and express their beliefs in any way. We are talking about a “democratic” Party that regards the ban on headscarf is the ONLY problem with Turkish democracy. Isn’t the right of education of women under attack when the government advocates three children per family? Most of the members of the party married their wives when those women in their (early) teens. It is the men who pick their female party members so carefully so that they don’t pose a threat of actual criticism. Within the very patriarchal nature of the Turkish society, women feel threatened and I believe they have every right to. It is not about the headscarf that perpetuates a threat per se, but it is the fact that along with the discussion on headscarves, what is really being debated is the “right of conservatism”. The discourse of the conservative side is shaped so that what we are facing is some elite seculars who have been tormenting “poor conservatives” for centuries. Those who advocate the right of conservatism do this very pragmatically to overlook all the underlying fact that Turkey HAS already a very conservative society and such stress on the right to be conservative only bolsters the patriarchal taboos Turkish women face, regardless of headscarf or not.
I think the headscarf ban is a very racy issue to publicize, but there are much bigger problems of women in Turkey if you are that much concerned about women’s freedom in Turkey.

]]> By: Korolev http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-163640 Korolev Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:10:14 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-163640 The Turkish government (and military) is absolutely paranoid about Religious influence - they are extreme secularists, in other words, in the tradition of Kemal Ataturk. It's not really an issue of "keeping women down" - more of an issue of "keeping religion down". And while I am a secularist, I do think the Turkish authorities go too far sometimes, particularly in this case. After all, secularism isn't about repressing religion - only keeping government and religion separate. The Secularism of Turkey was for a good purpose - overall women in Turkey have better freedoms than they used to, and turkey is far more stable, far more prosperous than it would have been if it hadn't freed itself from Theocracy. I admit that the government of Turkey is over-zealous. However, they are afraid of slipping back to the bad old days where the clerics and the religious elite ran everything, and I can tell you, that period of time was a lot worse. The Turkish government (and military) is absolutely paranoid about Religious influence – they are extreme secularists, in other words, in the tradition of Kemal Ataturk. It’s not really an issue of “keeping women down” – more of an issue of “keeping religion down”. And while I am a secularist, I do think the Turkish authorities go too far sometimes, particularly in this case. After all, secularism isn’t about repressing religion – only keeping government and religion separate.

The Secularism of Turkey was for a good purpose – overall women in Turkey have better freedoms than they used to, and turkey is far more stable, far more prosperous than it would have been if it hadn’t freed itself from Theocracy.

I admit that the government of Turkey is over-zealous. However, they are afraid of slipping back to the bad old days where the clerics and the religious elite ran everything, and I can tell you, that period of time was a lot worse.

]]> By: Meghan Rose http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-158512 Meghan Rose Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:58:11 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-158512 As a white American Muslimah revert who keeps hijab, I've had the experience of being both a "sexually liberated" Western woman and an "oppressed" Muslim woman. Personally, I prefer oppression. I don't understand how choosing to keep hijab is anymore coerced than choosing to wear high heels; pretty much all women's choices, especially concerning what we wear, are patriarchally coerced, and in my experience, regardless of what I wear, I get attention. At least when I'm keeping hijab the attention tends to be more respectful and curious versus harrassing and sexual. Not to mention, as someone who's spent my life struggling with body image (as many women have), it really changes your perspective on your own body and allows you (at least in my experience) to learn to dress for yourself, instead of for what other people want and expect...particularly because where I live (in the middle of drunk Greek university hell) it's not particularly common to not want to dress to attract copious amounts of male attention. Don't get me wrong; Turkey is a special case, because for them the slippery slope fear is very real. But France? Most of the other countries with hijab bans aren't even approaching the fear realistically at all. And no, I don't think keeping hijab is better than dressing any other way; it's just what is right for me, now, in my life. But my point is that it is really no better or worse than wearing any of the things I wore before I reverted; the decision is just as much a function of oppression, albeit under different systems, and we don't have any more or less freedom to choose. Not to mention, in my opinion, forcing a woman to take off her hijab is just as wrong as forcing her to put it on, and it's a little bit ironic that when I was younger a lot of the fuss was about getting girls and women to cover up because we were too sexual and liked to wear short skirts too often...the older I get, now I can't wear long dresses or skirts or headscarves, because I'm told that I shouldn't be modest. Also, we don't attack other religions that preach modesty, like Pentecostal Christianity...I used to work at a restaurant where a Pentecostal woman got special status to wear skirts and other clothing items because they had religious significance. If I had asked to keep hijab at that time (it was before I reverted), it would have been seen as crazy and not acceptable. They're both religious applications of modesty. Why is one better or more allowed than the other? Hijab is also an entire system for both men and women, not just a headscarf only worn by women. Hijab bans specifically target women; they don't ban traditional garments worn by men keeping hijab. One of my professors, Doris Gray, has an excellent book called Muslim Women on the Move, where she traces how hijab bans do the opposite of what they claim to do by excluding believing, covering women from the public sphere. Muslim men who are trying to keep hijab do not face the same difficulties in non-Muslim legal systems, so they do not face crises of faith, identity, and body image every time they step out of their door. I've heard the argument that this is Islam's fault for not requiring men to cover their hair completely as well, but honestly, to me, that's completely abstract and irrelevant. The millions of women keeping hijab around the world are not just going to all wake up today and decide that it's better to take it off and the belief they've had all their lives is just silly. The fact is that hijab bans are totally unnecessary and they have the concrete, documented effect of keeping women from participating socially, politically, and legally in Western-oriented societies where women are supposed to have freedom of dress and are supposed to be able to participate in these systems. As a white American Muslimah revert who keeps hijab, I’ve had the experience of being both a “sexually liberated” Western woman and an “oppressed” Muslim woman. Personally, I prefer oppression. I don’t understand how choosing to keep hijab is anymore coerced than choosing to wear high heels; pretty much all women’s choices, especially concerning what we wear, are patriarchally coerced, and in my experience, regardless of what I wear, I get attention. At least when I’m keeping hijab the attention tends to be more respectful and curious versus harrassing and sexual. Not to mention, as someone who’s spent my life struggling with body image (as many women have), it really changes your perspective on your own body and allows you (at least in my experience) to learn to dress for yourself, instead of for what other people want and expect…particularly because where I live (in the middle of drunk Greek university hell) it’s not particularly common to not want to dress to attract copious amounts of male attention.

Don’t get me wrong; Turkey is a special case, because for them the slippery slope fear is very real. But France? Most of the other countries with hijab bans aren’t even approaching the fear realistically at all. And no, I don’t think keeping hijab is better than dressing any other way; it’s just what is right for me, now, in my life. But my point is that it is really no better or worse than wearing any of the things I wore before I reverted; the decision is just as much a function of oppression, albeit under different systems, and we don’t have any more or less freedom to choose. Not to mention, in my opinion, forcing a woman to take off her hijab is just as wrong as forcing her to put it on, and it’s a little bit ironic that when I was younger a lot of the fuss was about getting girls and women to cover up because we were too sexual and liked to wear short skirts too often…the older I get, now I can’t wear long dresses or skirts or headscarves, because I’m told that I shouldn’t be modest. Also, we don’t attack other religions that preach modesty, like Pentecostal Christianity…I used to work at a restaurant where a Pentecostal woman got special status to wear skirts and other clothing items because they had religious significance. If I had asked to keep hijab at that time (it was before I reverted), it would have been seen as crazy and not acceptable. They’re both religious applications of modesty. Why is one better or more allowed than the other?

Hijab is also an entire system for both men and women, not just a headscarf only worn by women. Hijab bans specifically target women; they don’t ban traditional garments worn by men keeping hijab. One of my professors, Doris Gray, has an excellent book called Muslim Women on the Move, where she traces how hijab bans do the opposite of what they claim to do by excluding believing, covering women from the public sphere. Muslim men who are trying to keep hijab do not face the same difficulties in non-Muslim legal systems, so they do not face crises of faith, identity, and body image every time they step out of their door. I’ve heard the argument that this is Islam’s fault for not requiring men to cover their hair completely as well, but honestly, to me, that’s completely abstract and irrelevant. The millions of women keeping hijab around the world are not just going to all wake up today and decide that it’s better to take it off and the belief they’ve had all their lives is just silly. The fact is that hijab bans are totally unnecessary and they have the concrete, documented effect of keeping women from participating socially, politically, and legally in Western-oriented societies where women are supposed to have freedom of dress and are supposed to be able to participate in these systems.

]]> By: Brooke http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-154702 Brooke Sun, 02 Mar 2008 09:45:38 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-154702 <blockquote>This type of attitude is why feminists in other cultures don’t like working with Western feminists - we can’t accept the possibility that maybe they’re every bit as capable of analyzing their culture and thinking for themselves as we are.</blockquote> or even Muslim American feminists.... As an educated (informed decision making) and believing covered (shayla usually) woman, I just want to add that two of my closest friends love to wear niqab (face covering) because it provides them with nearly absolute power as to who gets to see their <em>face</em>. They find it rather fun...can you imagine that? Close your eyes and try hard.

This type of attitude is why feminists in other cultures don’t like working with Western feminists – we can’t accept the possibility that maybe they’re every bit as capable of analyzing their culture and thinking for themselves as we are.

or even Muslim American feminists….

As an educated (informed decision making) and believing covered (shayla usually) woman, I just want to add that two of my closest friends love to wear niqab (face covering) because it provides them with nearly absolute power as to who gets to see their face. They find it rather fun…can you imagine that? Close your eyes and try hard.

]]> By: Destructor http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-153355 Destructor Mon, 25 Feb 2008 03:42:56 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-153355 Purdah is the practice of preventing men from seeing women, so is related but not accurate. I'm not sure what Tahajub is, but if you meant to say 'Tahajjud', that is a night prayer, so I'm not sure what relevance that has here? Purdah is the practice of preventing men from seeing women, so is related but not accurate. I’m not sure what Tahajub is, but if you meant to say ‘Tahajjud’, that is a night prayer, so I’m not sure what relevance that has here?

]]> By: Destructor http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-153352 Destructor Mon, 25 Feb 2008 03:31:33 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-153352 No, I said what I meant, and what the Qu'ran states. Hijab is the institution/tradition. The headscarf is simply one of many ways the rules dictated by Hijab are enforced. No, I said what I meant, and what the Qu’ran states. Hijab is the institution/tradition. The headscarf is simply one of many ways the rules dictated by Hijab are enforced.

]]> By: Sylvia http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-152941 Sylvia Fri, 22 Feb 2008 20:43:22 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-152941 <blockquote>Hijab refers to the <em>institution</em></blockquote> The word Hijab does not refer to the institution. Do you mean to say "Purdah"? Or "Tahajub"?

Hijab refers to the institution

The word Hijab does not refer to the institution. Do you mean to say “Purdah”? Or “Tahajub”?

]]> By: Destructor http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-152176 Destructor Wed, 20 Feb 2008 02:58:28 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/14/the-headscarf-is-where-we-are-stuck/#comment-152176 <blockquote>A hijab is not the same thing as a burqa. </blockquote> Hijab refers to the <em>institution</em> of covering women, through a variety of means, and both burqas and headscarves are part of that tradition. However I appreciate that is not the direction the conversation has taken and will drop it. The only point I wanted to make that banning headscarves entirely and forcing women to wear them are two sides of the same coin, and I support neither, but recognize that there's a delicate tension between these two sides that needs to be respected. <em>There are many other feminist blogs on the web where your perspective will be supported.</em> I read feministe every day and I think it is superb. Most blogs I read don't exactly match my perspective, and I am very glad for the fact- it broadens my mind to read other people's thoughts. I hope I didn't sound aggressive or disrespectful when trying to convey mine.

A hijab is not the same thing as a burqa.

Hijab refers to the institution of covering women, through a variety of means, and both burqas and headscarves are part of that tradition. However I appreciate that is not the direction the conversation has taken and will drop it. The only point I wanted to make that banning headscarves entirely and forcing women to wear them are two sides of the same coin, and I support neither, but recognize that there’s a delicate tension between these two sides that needs to be respected.

There are many other feminist blogs on the web where your perspective will be supported.

I read feministe every day and I think it is superb. Most blogs I read don’t exactly match my perspective, and I am very glad for the fact- it broadens my mind to read other people’s thoughts. I hope I didn’t sound aggressive or disrespectful when trying to convey mine.

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