The best thing we can do for men is to mock manhood, to tear away at the constraints that make it mandatory to be a man, the straitjacket of gender role. I don’t know what the creators of this video intended, but I’m looking at it though that lens.
(I can’t get the imbed to work for some reason.)
[Because you're a Luddite? -- z.]
(I also want to thank Jill and Zuzu for letting me have the podium several times this week. I asked to put up one thing and I kept getting ideas.)
And I thought it was gonna be this one. :)
Don’t boys like to smell nice? I always feel better when I don’t stink, personally.
If we’re going to talk about entertainment that’s also critical of how we construct masculinity, can I put in a plug for Sam Fuller’s Shock Corridor? It’s in the form of a gritty film noir, but it’s really a scathing portrait of the damage caused by how being “a man” is constructed in our society.
It’s definitely not your run-of-the-mill Hollywood feature. Don’t worry, everyone says to themselves, “WTF is this shit?” when Fuller’s color home movies of his trip to Africa suddenly show up as someone’s hallucination in this black-and-white film.
You can’t truly call Fuller a feminist director because his films almost exclusively focused on men, but the women in his films always stand strong against the abuse heaped on them by the world and fight back as best they can. Not to mention that Fuller considers stripper, prostitute and junkie to be mere job titles, not a judgment of someone’s character.
wonder if they have the smell of concrete -that fresh, cool earth smell you get in parkades and unfinished stairways. I also like the smell of gasoline -it’s no wonder my brain is fried! :)
the funny thing is, and i forget who it is…but someone actually makes a campfire scented candle…it’s like white barn or yankee…out of morbid curiosity i smelled one one time…hahaha…almost choked…
One of my teachers a couple years back had a “fresh cut grass” scented candle or something.
Is it bad that I covet the fried chicken candle? I’m working on being a vegetarian. Sigh, I try to get out, but they keep pulling me back in. . .
I WANT A DUCT TAPE MANDLE!!!! It must be MINE!
My husband is shocked that there isn’t a hot wings and beer mandle. He’s so cute. Other than that he totally wants the fried chicken mandle (then again he picked out the pumpkin spice candles we have now…he likes food…)
I am shocked there is no junkyard mandle. Wouldn’t mind having that burning in my apt when I am working on client machines…;)
Buritto fart? Looovely.
Okay, the “Buritto Fart ” one made me laugh out loud.
[...] Via Feministe [...]
I get what you’re trying to do here, but really just stop. This isn’t your place. Masculinity belongs to males, both to practice and define as we see fit. It is not your right, you are not men. You have no more right to insult us then we have to insult you. You have no more right to define our gender than we have to define yours.
There is a huge difference between a group of women stating they don’t like the way women are defined in this culture, and a group of women stating they don’t like the way men are defined in this culture. If you want to select mates that have whatever qualities you desire, that’s one thing. It’s entirely different to openly mock people from a group you do not belong to.
Soullite, did you just happen to notice that someone named “Thomas” is the author of this post?
Oh, sure. That’s why there are no men who ever mock women.
Not in MY household! I am far more masculine than my husband. But thanks for telling us that all women are supposed to listen to any random man spouting off…
YAWN…
Soullite, I put that up. I’m a man, a husband and a father. I’m cisgendered, het and in many ways traditionally masculine, with all the problems that come with it: expressing emotions more easily as anger than as sadness, for example, and refusing to ask for help until I’m underwater. I’ve lived in this culture under the constraints of manhood for over thirty years; I’ve had my ass kicked for manhood and I’ve kicked ass. I wear it and walk around with it, and I’ve earned as much right as any man to define it, examine it, critique it or mock it.
I’m the father of a daughter. I’m the brother of a sister. I’m the son of a mother, and I’m the husband of a wife. Manhood is killing women and it’s our fault. Since you’re criticizing, I assume you’ve got a better plan. So let’s hear it.
“It’s entirely different to openly mock people from a group you do not belong to.”
Wait- So I’m not allowed to mock rich, white males? Dammit!
Shorter Soullite: “You ladies can bitch all you want, just don’t do it front of me. It makes me uncomfortable to realize the privilege I have.”
perhaps summarizing soullites post into “you ladies can bitch all you want” is a good thing but i dont think so. I thought this clip was hilarious and I don’t agree with soullite but I also don’t agree that the entirety of “manhood” needs to be tossed out. there is a ton that should be discarded and how much the construct hurts men and women needs to be put out there even more so that more people, of both genders, can begin to understand it I just feel that there are some qualities of the traditionally defined meaning of manhood that can be good things if used properly. Stoicism can be destructive if carried too far but it can also be a great asset, a strong sense of filial loyalty can be a good thing, competitiveness can be a good thing if not carried too far. The role of protector is one many decry and usually for good reason but it also has its uses or are you saying I shouldn’t stand up and stop harassment or abuse if i see it, say a woman being touched inappropriately on a city bus. Also its a bit tough as the gender construct means different things to different people and sub-cultures within our country. A reimagining would be good but tossing out all the tenets of traditional masculinity is a bit foolish to me. Mocking it may be one way to go but it seems it might not be a good first step as peoples initial reaction to it will make any real understanding much harder just as mocking traditional tenets of femininity has caused problems when trying to reach out to some women.
nobody ever argues that “manhood” or “womanhood” “needs to be tossed out.” we just need to quit grouping XYZ characteristics together as epitomizing inborn classifications. empathy is a good thing to have, as is confidence and assertion. but what we need to do is stop associating those things with “man” and “woman” and instead start associating them with “good/bad” or “helpful/counterproductive” etc.
IOW, no one is saying that standing up for yourself is bad because it’s a traditionally male characteristic. what people are saying is that we need to stop thinking in terms of male characteristics and female characteristics altogether. examine a person’s qualities independent of the gender institution. so, yes, stand up for yourself. and wear pink if you like the color. and stop worrying about whether one of the other belongs to you because you possess a penis. it will do no one any good to “reconstruct” masculinity with just the traits we decide are positive: it’s still feeding a system of oppression.
i understand that and it was very well said but I do not think we will ever get to that level, where everyone sees themselves and others without seeing gender at all 100% of the time. yes it would be far better if those things were associated with simply “good/bad” or “helpful/counterproductive” and thats a laudable goal but i dont see it happening especially as a social construct.
Dan&Danica,
Why not? If we as a group create the social construct why can’t reform it? Think about how radically society has changed in just the last twenty years. Or from the other side look how quickly Iran went from a progressive country to an intolerant one. If we make it, we can break it.
More generally, I don’t give a damn what Soullite says I will mock any and all stereotypes as often as I like. Humor is a fabulous way to criticize intolerance.
not to mention “can we create an ideal society?” is a bit of a straw man when addressing a criticism for the straw-man “but you can’t criticize masculinity that means you’re criticizing being STRONG and SMART and –!”
The clip is amusing, but I think that a feminist blog is not the right place for the comment “The best thing we can do for men is to mock manhood”, regardless of the gender identity of the person posting it there; I feel that such a debate does belong properly to men primarily ()although, just as I feel that men can sometimes contribute usefully to feminist debate, so women can sometimes contribute usefully to male debates). Whatever else a feminist blog may be, it is not a male debating space. I disagree with much of what Soullite says in his comment, but the central idea that men have to find our own way to erode the masculine gender construct, is very important.
While I enjoyed the clip, I take great offence at the notion of “mocking manhood”. Mocking patriarchal constructs of masculinity is something that makes sense in the context of the statement, but mocking the fact of being male (which is what the term “manhood” means to me) is not okay.
Feminism has provided a philosophical, political and social framework on which women can examine critically and openly what it means to be a woman and/or female, but there is no equivalent theoretical space as yet that gives men a similar way of examining and reflecting upon their own experience and existence. Personally, I think that it is harmful to men to mock “maleness” or “manhood”, because it does nothing to erode the gender construct, but rather makes the targets more protective of their gendered roles.
Incidentally, I think the clip serves more to reinforce masculine gender roles rather than erode them. It quite clearly states, “these are the things that define a man’s role in life”. I find it amusing on an absurd humour level, not a satirical one (the absurdity being, “can you really imagine a macho masculine man using such a thing?”)
I notice that Soullite’s response was characterised as “You ladies can bitch all you want, just don’t do it front of me.” It seems to me to be fair to characterise a lot of the other responses as “It is men’s proper place in life to be laughed at and belittled.” And then, after Soullite’s ill-thought-out piece, they add, “So quit bitching about us having our fun at your expense”.
I honestly don’t see how any of this does any good for eroding gender paradigms, or promoting equality of the sexes.
Whatever else a feminist blog may be, it is not a male debating space.
I wholeheartedly disagree. “Masculinity”, as our culture defines it, has very real consequences that must be addressed by any philosophy that purports to be about equality. “Masculine” is not the opposite of “feminine”, and to state that these ideas have any sort of definition set in stone is ludicrous, yet our society does just that. I’m a man. I have a large amount of candles in my apartment, which I do use. The cultural meme for this is that I am acting “feminine”, as our culture defines “femininity”. This commercial mocks that idea, which works to an overall goal to show that “masculine” and “feminine” are just constructs that have zero meaning except to get people to conform to set roles in society simply because they feel they have to. Mocking “masculinity” is not the equivalent of mocking men.
Wow, that was some hilarious stuff, it reminded me of another ad on this podcast for the Manly Mayonaise called MANyonaise.
Hee, damn, but I laughed at the Chuck Norris Sweat and Musty Locker Room mandles. This was a great mocking of the old ideas of men, to be all tough and manly and stinking and stuff.
kristen,
i agree in principle but i dont see it happening in practice. you cited Iran and said they were a progressive country before the revolution. while that is most certainly true in some respects in major cities such as tehran, shiraz, esfahan and so on it was not true of the rest of the country and the strides made by activists under the shah only really had an effect on the wealthy Iranian base (the very same base who had the resources to flee the country when the revolution came). the mentality of that country even in the progressive era you cited was light years behind what we have in America now, one can look at popular media or colloquial terms such as rafifgeh from the laat-eh chaleh medoon and so on.
I love the idea of reforming our society into one which there is no gender-typing but it will not happen, not completely, as the state has a vested interest in it not happening unless they can substitute another beliefd system and still achieve their goals.
as far as a feminist blog not being a good place to discuss men, rubbish to that, its about equality and the discussing of ideas, nothing should be out of bounds. i do find it interesting though, in my view of this country i see nothing more important than life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and equality. one can look at those in a myriad of ways but women live longer, liberty for me starts with personal libery and you cant have that if youre in jail or in some other way bonded and men go to jail more often and receive longers terms for the same crime, the pursuit of happiness is hard to pursue nowadays without an education or being able to read/write properly and men lag far behind women at alll levels of education. those are in my mind some of the best arguments against our current system and a great way to induce more people into the movement without mocking something, make them see the ill effects our current way of looking at things is having in a new way which they might have felt before but is never really talked about.
Sorry for the rant, have a bootiful night all.
What, you have a problem with the women who run this blog letting a man do a guest post, or you just have a problem with the women who run this blog letting men comment here in response? Men being a group to which, if I am not mistaken, you belong.
OK, between Chuck Norris Sweat, Duct Tape and FEAR, I can’t think of a single person I know who wouldn’t love to get those for Christmas. Hell, they’d make a great boxed set! Those are flippin sweet, I so wish they existed!
well you don’t let men speak on this website you let men who agree with you do it. Kind of like saying since fox news has Anne coulter on frequently womens issues are discussed in an even matter on fox.
If its okay to discuss issues that happen to men can we not have any more accusations of “omg what about the menz?”
Men live shorter lives BECAUSE they partake in masculine stereotypes, which include behaviors like binge drinking, daredevil driving, avoiding health care, eating unhealthful food, and taking drugs (etc) at higher rates than women. Thus, ending masculinity as a constraining role for men should be the goal, if you want men to live longer. Ditto the prison issue, although that has more to do with class and race and our economic system. Men do not get longer sentences for killing spouses by the way. And they certainly do not get heavily sentenced for rape, which oh yeah, women statistically do not do much.
Why do you seem to think that the actions of women have no effect in the enforcing of the masculine role? Both men and women enforce the roles of both men and women.
There are many women who expect their husband to be the bread winner and if that means him taking on risky jobs such as in the army or construction work to pay for both him and her living out their gender roles who is oppressing who? Why do you seek to blame men if they have lessor outcomes but don’t blame women when women have lessor outcomes?
If you do it in a way that does not imply “Stop talking about teh feminismz and talk about me instead” — in an inclusive and respectful manner — you probably won’t see much criticism for it. It goes without saying that you can do that on your own space, as this is a feminist blog with a feminist pov and it’s fully within the rights of the authors here to control what sort of discussion goes on in it.
leta, discussing “issues that happen to men” in a thread that is explicitly about questions of masculinity is one thing. Having a comment thread for a post explicitly addressing an issue that disproportionately “happens to women” hijacked by someone asking “omg what about the menz?” is entirely another.
And I’m really scratching my head over the idea that only men who agree (with whom? The moderators? With our feminist hivemind?) are allowed to comment here. Care to back up that statement?
Leta, to whom do you direct your question? If me, here is my resonse.
Of course, some women have some effect on some men. Individual manipulation of men by individual women exists, it’s true. But structurally, men have power in our culture that women do not. The structure of patriarchy has more to do with those alleged expectations than some inherent evil in women (i know you never said that). The cultural expectation for men to earn money does not come from individual women; it comes from the culture (i.e. patriarchy). The very system we seek to undercut. Thus, it appears that we’re working toward the same thing.
Well there was a topic written a few weeks ago that took an article to task because it didn’t mention women.
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/02/08/but-what-about-the-menz/
If an article that is basically “omg what about the womenz” is allowed then why not comments?
Society is made of both men and women to arbitrarily make issues that happen to both men and women “womens issues” simply creates more sexism not less. Articles that talk about things that mostly happen to men are made gender neutral why is there such a demand to make things that happen mostly to women “womens issues”.
So because there’s a post here about mocking rigid gender constructs as it pertains to men, that means the entire focus of a feminist blog must center men? Come on.
I think this ad is a great sendup of all those ridiculous beer and sports commercials (and their ilk) with the dramatic music, ridiculous embrace of stereotype and obsession with being “manly”. And the Chuck Norris bit made me almost shoot diet coke out of my nose.
Yes i said the blog has to be either about women or men see its impossible to have a blog thats about both.
If you want to do a blog that is just about women fine but don’t pretend when its convenient that its about both men and women.
leta, is it your premise that women are the arbiters of gender roles and as such are now in the regular business of oppressing men? PHMT.
Also, who said anything about blame? The fact that men are harmed by rigid gender stereotypes is more PHMT isn’t blame.
It is my premise that assuming that men behave as some borg entity known as the patriarchy that benefits men and oppresses women is absurd magical thinking.
it is my premise that separating bad things that happen to women and bad things that happen to men as oppression for women and a subset and milder PHMT is insulting. What on earth gives you the impression that men have more freedom in out society than women? you haven’t even examined this question with any empathy for men or with any objectivity.
I think leta could more accurately be called zeus. yes i know it was leda, but i couldn’t resist
“her” story and her complaint about the blog keep changing. and the strawfeminism has become tiresome. ALthough the “borg” line was kinda funny
And here we go everyone who disagrees is a troll. I have been posting under this nick at other places for over a year.
This is a common sentiment, and it bothers me. Patriarchy is not some secret cabal of men conspiring to control the world. Patriarchy is a system of oppression from which we all benefit in some ways, all lose in some ways, and in which we all participate to some extent. It is a way of organizing society. It is not a group of people.
It’s just like the “if you call someone racist that means you’re saying they’re the leader of a lynch mob” meme, and it’s obnoxious.
Actually, I’m pretty sure this is a blog about feminism.
… or the “you can eliminate terrorism by killing people” meme. again, terrorism is a way of doing things, not a group of people.
Leta, I apologize because I know this will offend you, but that’s the douchiest, dumbest statement I’ve read on a feminist blog in a long while.
h’ain’t worth.
“What on earth gave you the idea that men in our society have more freedom than women?”
If you aren’t a troll, you don’t live in the same world I do. How many men in college fear going to parties because they will be drugged and raped?
Has anyone (ever) asked John McCain to iron their shirt?
If others join in, I”m pretty sure the list would get long quickly.
Leta, no-one here is saying men have it great (remember PHMT), but they certainly have more freedom.
“How many men in college fear going to parties because they will be drugged and raped?”
here we go lets have oppression olympics.
i can then name a few things men have it worse in you can insult them ill insult yours i will be banned etc etc. Do you not get what i am saying? This insistence that “women have it worse in all areas because women are the true victims and must be protected” doesn’t really help anything?
If you aren’t a troll
It’s impossible that leta is not a troll, I believe. But then, I’m a “man who agrees” ZOMG.
It is my premise that assuming that men behave as some borg entity known as the patriarchy that benefits men and oppresses women is absurd magical thinking.
Good thing no one said that, then, isn’t it? You’re either stupid or ignorant or lying if you think that “masculinity”, “femininity”, and other such patriarchal memes do not exist in this society. Your premise is empty because no, men are not part of the Borg, but they are part of a society that has long held women as “other” than men, and not only “other”, but “less-than”. You honestly believe attacking masculinity is the same as attacking men in general?
As for the “you dumb feminazis really think there are a bunch of men–and their female groupie/fangirls–sitting around in a Legion of Doom-esque lair, plotting to oppress women and girls–that’s so irrationally absurd (but then all you chicks are irrational, HA!)“-meme that’s used against the feminist argument against patriarchy and misogyny, I believe that ‘the Patriarchy’ is a collection of societal expectations and ideas that can be enforced through words/lectures, laws, and acts. Not some Legion of Doom-esque boogeyman that we feminists are supposedly imagining. Telling girls from infancy that their only vocations in life are wifedom, motherhood, and domesticity, and their entire identity and self-worth are centered around those things, and then continuously reinforcing that with magazines, films, television shows, music, news articles, etc throughout the course of their lives, is a form of patriarchy in action. Likewise telling boys from their own infancy that their entire identity and “manhood” are based on dominating other boys, men, and of course women and girls, instigating wars and violence, not giving a shit about your health (because that’s for “pussies, fags, and chicks”), attaining material wealth and a “trophy-Stepfordwife,” requiring female submission before entering any relationship or sexual encounter with them, having a love/contemptuous-hate- and resentfully dependent relationship for- and on the female sex (because “real manly men don’t do domestic chores and you need those bitches for sex and planting your oh so precious and sacred seed), “siring” lots of offspring even if you don’t take care of them financially or emotionally, using women as sex-objects (and if you’re actually Gay, then it’s being some self-hating, closeted Gay who commits hate-crimes against the Queer Community), and so on. You don’t always need some cliche villainous conspiracy for all of that. Just an assbackward culture that uses coercion (and sometimes violence and oppressive laws) to keep people in line. Now when it comes to some Islamic countries, countries in Africa and Asia, and Central and South American countries, and Ireland that strictly follow anti-choice and anti-contraception doctrines of the Vatican, some of them can definitely be described as a more organized and actively-aggressive patriarchies. However my point is–and other feminists–is that oppression and Patriarchy can be very passive-aggressive and sometimes in order for patriachy to thrive, all you need is a set of cultural norms and expectations, and indoctrination from a very early age, rather than some Elders of Zion-esque boogeyman of a conspiracy. Oppression and patriarchal culture doesn’t have to be so blatant. It can be as miniscule as not letting a girl play with the boys during recess–even if the boys invited her to play with them– since they’re playing football and “girls shouldn’t be interested in playing football or any sports at all, because that’s so unladylike and dyke-ish, and she’ll never get a husband or have children, and therefore not be a real woman”. Or not letting a boy play with an E-Z Bake Oven because “that’s for girls.” Ridiculing a [hetero] guy who wants to be nurse by calling him “gay,” “a pussy,” or “a fag”, or for wanting to be a stay-at-home father. Telling a girl that females aren’t good at math or science so she doesn’t have to worry about excelling in those fields, and she should just concentrate on building the stereotypical relationships expected of girls and women–because that’s what supposedly defines our worth and identity–while in school, and just look for a prospective husband while in college, move out into the suburbs, buy a gas-guzzling “soccer-mom van” or an SUV, and embrace domesticated motherhood…and that’s all there is to her life and identity. (Sorry for the run-ons.)
“You’re either stupid or ignorant or lying if you think that “masculinity”, “femininity”, and other such patriarchal memes do not exist in this society.”
Deny, deny, deny…because then *it (*the social injustice) “doesn’t exist.” And if the *other side (*in this case, feminists) points out otherwise, deride them as “hysterical” and “paranoid,” and then blame *them (*feminists) for the all discrimination and bigotry they’re trying to erradicate. It’s a clever tactic used by anyone from anti-feminists and misogynists to anti-racial/ethnic social-justice bigots.
It is not what i am saying at all but since my comments appear to be stuck in moderation i can’t defend myself???
Good thing no one said that, then, isn’t it? You’re either stupid or ignorant or lying if you think that “masculinity”, “femininity”, and other such patriarchal memes do not exist in this society. Your premise is empty because no, men are not part of the Borg, but they are part of a society that has long held women as “other” than men, and not only “other”, but “less-than”. You honestly believe attacking masculinity is the same as attacking men in general?
Good thing i didn’t say that then.
Women and men are both part of society to suggest that when bad things that happen to men as men it isn’t oppression but merely “phmt” i happen to think that is wrong. By suggesting that only women are able to hold the title of “oppressed” it means to a lot of people (including some feminists) that class men oppresses class women.
By suggesting that only women are able to hold the title of “oppressed” it means to a lot of people (including some feminists) that class men oppresses class women.
Completely idiotic. We’re mocking “masculinity”, a specific idea that is used to oppress men. Are you able to read?
If patriarchy is merely the traditional ideals that restrict both sexes into rigid gender roles then why is it when bad things happen to men is it called “patriarchy hurts men too”.
Wouldn’t that be obvious? why the too. Shouldn’t it be said then patriarchy huts men and women.
And if its just traditional roles why is it called ‘patriarchy’. Why not matriarchy? why not just “traditional gender roles”?
Patriarchy oppresses women but hurts men. So the concept of masculinity doesn’t oppress men. It merely hurts….
In the comments for a related video I found this site
http://www.hotwicks.com/
Apparently, they actually sell some of these odors.
excuse me ill be out mocking femininity.
“excuse me ill be out mocking femininity.”
Thank you. Because, though I like to wear pink, I don’t like people thinking that it’s “feminine” for me to wear pink.
You really don’t get it, do you? When you mock femininity and masculinity, you’re not mocking men and women. You’re mocking what culture defines as feminine and masculine. So when you say you’re going to mock femininity you’re not insulting us.
Dan&Danica,
Matter of perspective…but I prefer to believe and work towards the ideal regardless of whether its attainable.
Plus what Amanda said — only less brilliantly.
Leta,
Your argument doesn’t make sense to me. Perhaps this is the heart of issue…Men are not the patriarchy. Men may disproportionately benefit from the patriarchy but as Amanda so eloquently explained we all are participants in the system. This doesn’t mean that patriarchy doesn’t oppress men, it merely means that women, in general, experience a greater level of oppression. I’m relatively sure that most feminists would agree with the above statement. (Not that I’m attempting to speak for all feminists.)
The reason for the prior criticism of the male model argument was not (IMO) because eating disorders/super skinny body image issues are a “women’s issue” but because that particular guy only got worked up over the issue because men were experiencing it. I would hope we would be equally outraged if an article about a dramatic increase in female athletes taking steroids failed to acknowledge that this was an important issue for many years for male athletes. A patriarchal system often only cares about issues that harm women (or other disenfranchised groups) when that same issue begins to effect those that are privileged.
You are too feminine to be a true feminist. Don’t you realise femininity is silly and a construct that oppresses women?
So the concept of masculinity doesn’t oppress men.
What the hell are you talking about? “Hurt” and “oppression” are now mutually exclusive?
Don’t you realise femininity is silly and a construct that oppresses women?
Don’t you realize that “femininity” doesn’t actually mean anything? Please, try to actually think. Saying that women are supposed to be feminine oppresses them. Women who choose certain aspects as their own that society deems “feminine” is not the same as society telling them that they HAVE to exist as such. Society saying that blue is masculine does not negate me from wearing blue. I think it’s stupid to say that I can’t wear blue, pink, magenta, or yellow or any other color I wish. The same goes for women.
“Patriarchy describes a social structure where the actions and ideas of men and boys are dominant over those of women and girls.”
Men are the oppressors this is what patriarchy means…
i am not against the notion of being against the rigidity masculinity what i am talking about is the use here is merely to paint so called “masculine” men as some how defective or manufactured by society.
“And if its just traditional roles why is it called ‘patriarchy’. Why not matriarchy? why not just “traditional gender roles”?”
Because men and boys still mostly benefit from traditional gender roles (even if they get fucked over sometimes). And surprise, surprise, traditional gender roles posit the idea that men should be the *active- and primary agents in society (*political leaders, military leaders, or simply the leaders of any situation, “breadwinners/providers”, “head of the household,” dominate the economy, dominate the public sphere, have sexual desires, show anger- or be actively-aggressive without being reprimanding for being “hysterical,” “irrational,” “hormonal,” or “belligerent” because “he’s just being a real man,” have influence over cultural norms, have more of a right to bodily autonomy and sexual sovereignty, can have more freedom to do as they please, viewed as the default- and “normal” sex, etc). Hence why traditional gender norms can also be called patriarchal. They derive from the idea that men should be in control and have privilege over women (and even other men who don’t belong to the elite class), whether it’s in the public or even the domestic sphere–even though that’s where patriachal/traditional gender norms dictate where women and girls should be most of their lives. Men “should” be active and the default/normal sex, while women “should” be passive and the Other/aberrant sex, that should just do whatever men want because *they (*men) determine the culture and “what is normal“…since you know, guys are “normal” so they must know what’s best for women and even other men, and the society as a whole. And in the midst of all this men are
And you clearly don’t know what the fuck matriarchy means. You don’t know jackshit about feminist theory and gender/sex- studies. You type about as well as some Junior High kid on their MySpace page, trying to look cool so they can sit at the cool kids’ table during lunchtime. You’re just a typical anti-feminist troll, pretending to have a genuine interest in gender/sex-studies and feminist theory, and you of course blow your pathetic attempt at a pro-feminist facade when you deliberately throw out flaming, anti-feminist-baiting comments. And then you want the whole fucking discussion board to revolve around your petulant, “holy-fuck, this must be some Freshmen college kid who thinks they’re like totally smarter than the professor, and they’re going to lecture said professor in the middle of class in front of everyone and tell them why they–the annoying and obvious college freshmen–deserves a PhD and the professor doesn’t- ha!-take that, meanie-college prof!-like totally, I’m going to put that on my MySpace page”-whining and then spoon-feed you Feminist Theory 101 info. Pick up a fucking book by a feminist author and read, especially if the title is Feminist Thought or Feminist Theory. Or go to Finally, a Feminism 101 Blog. You’re deliberate obtuseness was cute at first, but when your true intentions became evident your comments became tedious, cliche, and predictable. Your understanding of feminist theory, gender/sex-studies, and the origins and basic premise of patriarchal/traditional gender roles, is on par with Tom Cruise’s knowledge of psychiatry. Thank you for playing and always remember that you’re the reason why I–and I’m sure many here– think a Gender/Sex-Studies introductory course should also be apart of the mandatory college curriculum…and why feminist blogs should have An Appraisal Of Anti-Feminist Troll Tactics & How To Call The Fuckers Out On It archived post/category. Oh wait, I think that the Anti-Feminist Bingo Card.
what i am talking about is the use here is merely to paint so called “masculine” men as some how defective or manufactured by society
I really find the idea that this commercial mocks men that would actually want a burrito fart candle is the most ludicrous idea I’ve read in a while. You think there’s a man out there that is going to feel personally offended by this commercial? HONESTLY?! A “Red Meat” candle? ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Not the video
The best thing we can do for men is to mock manhood, to tear away at the constraints that make it mandatory to be a man, the straitjacket of gender role. I don’t know what the creators of this video intended, but I’m looking at it though that lens.
(I can’t get the imbed to work for some reason.)
“have sexual desires”
D’oh! “[...]without any fear of being reprimanding for being ‘immoral’ or ‘whorish’,” should follow that.
sigh,
that was exactly my point, a large part of the reason men live shorter lives is due to the “masculine” identity. as far as sentencing goes, i’ll go find some of the articles and reports but even when controlling for income (or class if you want to go that way), race or area of the country, men draw longer sentences and not just in spousal killings and the like.
getting people to recognize these problems and be able to understand it is the social constructs we have created that is in part creating them is the key. though i still have issues with male education in this country and look at what theyre doing in the UK with a lot of envy. as far as education goes im not 100% sold on if we were to remove the gender roles we have now that would fix it, i still have a part of me that does believe in sex-based differences in learning styles, obviously they dont apply to all people but if there is some deficiency in language abilities for example that should be looked at and remedied. i have a speech impediment and many male friends with dyslexia and other similar disorders, problem that effects far more males than females, so perhaps thats why that issue rings so important to me.
addtionally on the life expectancy issue, i believe it is the be a man, suck it up mentality that leads to men seeking medical care at a far lesser rate than women and that is a tragedy though not as shocking a tragedy as the super high male suicide rate.
these issues belong on a feminist board as the discussing of them and the bringing of knowledge gleaned from those discussions to the larger community helps women a ton. break the construct and a lot of the problems females face in our society will be helped. no it needn’t be one of the main focuses but it should definitely be there at the very least so there is an outlet for both women and men to discuss these issues as men as a whole lack the organization, resources, and perhaps even the enlightenment to create a public discourse on these issues other than specific issues as seen on mensnewsdaily or glennsacks.
“And in the midst of all this men are…”
Oh fuck. “[...] yes, possibly oppressing each other in order to eliminate ‘the competition,’ and remain within- or enter ‘the elite class’.”
pseudo,
men benefit from the patriarchy, nothing new there but do you not find it interesting that if you break it down a little the pendulum seems to have swung the other way? I am 28 years old, if we look at those 28 and younger I see women being better educated, having more public discourse on health, (my bias here) having a huge upperhand in family courts, and even inverting the wage gap in urban areas. This becomes even more pronounced if you break it down among racial lines. I’m always fascinated when I look at it, the progress that has been and continues to be made but then look around at my contemporaries and begin to wonder when the patriarchy will kick in and elevate my brethern. I’m not trying to be “fresh” but it seems that young males are only losing out with the patriarchy, giving them quite a good reason to dismantle it, but there is no real push for that from most people.
Has anyone tried to call the number in that clip?
The best thing we can do for men is to mock manhood, to tear away at the constraints that make it mandatory to be a man, the straitjacket of gender role. I don’t know what the creators of this video intended, but I’m looking at it though that lens.
Are you even thinking? “Manhood” is not the same thing as men. No, I am not a part of society’s “manhood”. “Manhood” means very little to me with respect to my personality.
pseudo,
Just curious, the last half of your post #69, is that something you copy and paste or just a rant youre used to giving because you find so many of us posters uneducated when it comes to feminism?
Shit, I copied the wrong thing. I’m not disagreeing with Thomas, of course.
Y’know, leta, if you get shitcanned from this blog, it’ll be because you’re a crashing bore.
Though you’re getting some good responses from the regulars. No hope for you, not that you’ll actually comprehend what they’re posting, but someone else might, and that’s the goal, really.
dan your argument confuses me. You’re waiting for the patriarchy to “kick in”and elevate your “brethren”? You realize that if it is the patriarchy that gives you an advantage, it is an unfair one?
Also, I’m not out of college yet, but it is my impression that, even though women may be better educated, men still have the advantage in the workplace.
Dan&Danica, think of this:
Women are better educated because they *have to be* in order to compete with men. If men go to college at lower rates than women, it’s largely due to the fact that the skilled trades, where one can make a living comparable to that of a college graduate without the debt load and time investment (albeit also without the class status), are largely a male field. So a man considering his options will have them all open — college or apprenticeship. Women are largely shut out of the trades, so they pretty much have to go to college to be able to make a decent living.
And girls know that they have to be on the ball in order to compete, but men (and in particular middle-class white men, who, let’s face it, are the only ones that the people who complain about boys falling behind care about) are conditioned from an early age to expect that they’ll have doors open and that they’ll be fine no matter what happens. So this whole “boy crisis” is mostly just the advantage that boys have enjoyed for many, many years being eroded, not any real loss in earned status. And while it always sucks to have your privilege taken away, it doesn’t mean that the group gaining on you is grinding you under its bootheel.
There’s a fine line between mocking the socially coerced inclusion of males in the stereotypical male cultures and the mocking of the culture and those who partake in it willingly, choosing to identify with the traditional masculine image.
I so gotta get me some fear scented candles…
Rika,
Thats not what I’m waiting for, it was simply an argument I hear a lot. It would be unfair if an advantage was gained in that way but many men of the younger generation simply do not see the construst and do not understand that it is what is causing the problems.
zuzu,
Great post but i simply do not agree with the women have to be better educated to succeed, again at least not as how it applies to my generation. My background is military intelligence and now gov’t work. My career field was linguistics and women most definitely have an edge there from my experience. My wife is the one with the letters behind her name and while I think youre right in general that trade jobs are more open to men than women at this point i dont think that makes up for the troubling deficiencies of males in higher education let alone k-12. I wouldn’t say that men going to college at lower rates is “largely” due to trade jobs, at least not the ones youre talking about. What I take from what youre saying about them is plumbers and electricians and the like. You have to be at a master level in those to begin to compete with the middle-high tier of college educated folks and master is itself a high tier among the trades that not too many people attain. I think the availability of jobs outside the service sector for men is indeed a major contributor to less males going to college but im also pretty sure it has something to do with far higher learning disability, dropout, incarceration and drug use rates which gets back to my point of breaking the “masculine” construct we have right now.
Yes some of the “boy crisis” is indeed the eroding of privilege but not all of it, especially relating to education. ill find some links but if you have the time look up what the UK did when confronted with the stats and trends, it did tremendous good for all people, not just men. think of it this way. if the rates and trends here continue, are you really comfortable with tens of millions of marginally employable young males walking around with no real national job training programs?
Have no fear, I am deploying for the next few weeks so you won’t be hearing from me any longer. Danica will be posting im sure. Thank you for the great discussions and have a great night/weekend.
dan&danica,
Getting the “OMFG, the wimminz are totally taking over“-vapors, simply because *women and girls (*at least in Western and mostly developed countries) have made strides in the public sphere in recent decades, out of the thousands of years of systematic disenfranchisement, isn’t going to get rid of patriarchy and stringent traditional gender roles. Instead of doing that, just encourage young men and boys (and of course girls and women) to cast off all the machismo bullshit propagadna and all the other pro-patriarchal/traditional-gender-role tripe they’ve been fed since their births, and embrace a much healthier, anti-misogynstic masculine identity. If anything, by going on and on about how young women are becoming the majority on college campuses and being more independent, you’re conveying the impression–intentional or not– that you’re against feminist progress and young men and boys should also be against it because what?-it’s “emasculating the menz” or it’s causing the “boy crisis” in schools? Ha! (As for the “boy crisis” in schools, feel free to blame the patriarchy’s idea of masculinity, which now preaches that “academic achievement is for girls, pussies, and fags“– ironically after thousands of years of preaching that women and girls were intellectually inferior and weren’t worth educating. Quite reactionary wouldn’t you think? This would be an example of Anxious Masculine identity–do the opposite of whatever the female sex is doing or else you’re fuckin’ girl, hand in your Man-Card. Pop-culture isn’t helping either.) And yet for all of our strides we still don’t have gender/sex-equity, women are still very much the minority when it comes political, legal, economic, and military power, sexual- and domestic violence against women and girls still thrives thanks to the slut-shaming of female victims/survivors of male perpetrated sexual- and domestic violence and the Madonna/Whore Dichotomy still being held dear by our society, we still have a culture that preaches that all women want to be bejeweled, domesticated status-symbols for men and nothing more, and it goes on. Organized religion, bullshit Evo-Psych Theories passing off as credible science within the disciplines of Evolutionary Biology and Anthropology, and overall ignorance and misogyny still permiating throughout the culture (and the world), compound and enable the backlash against women’s (and men’s) strides for gender/sex-equity. A few decades of progress will not completely dismantle thousands of years of ingrained patriarchy and misogyny, but it’s a fucking good start and should continue for centuries to come. Fuck the backlash, keep on truckin’, feminism. We’re about as post-patriarchy as the average American is pro-driving-smaller-cars.
“pseudo,
Just curious, the last half of your post #69, is that something you copy and paste or just a rant youre used to giving because you find so many of us posters uneducated when it comes to feminism?”
No, presumptuous ass. That’s the spontaneous result of reading anti-feminist troll nonsense after years of blogging, but just happen to come out at that time. I usually don’t waste other bloggers’ bandwidth on such commenters like you. And if you don’t want to be called a presumptuous ass and an anti-feminist troll pretending not to be one, then don’t act like one. Go educate yourself and then re-join the discussion. I know very little of Quantum Physics so you won’t see me blathering on endlessly on the subject as if I did. People like you should do the same when it comes to feminism and gender/sex studies, or any other subject you know little about but then arrogantly saunter into a discussion as if you did. Thanks to freedom of speech/expression it’s very easy for me to recognize disingenuinous, bullshit artists such as you and leta. Thank you Bill of Rights…no really, thank you. Because without you I wouldn’t be allowed to call ‘em like I see ‘em.
Pseudo-
you rock :)
i loved your rant, it was perfect.
Chalked up to seeing my friend in VM yesterday, my wife let me have guy time to myself earlier in the day, which in this case consisted of me at the bar with a friend, a few rounds of Golden Tee, a few rounds of PBR, a few games on the big screens. Points discussed included but were not limited to the following: Marv Albert’s catch-phrases, why the Syracuse/Georgetown rivalry exists, and if we should care, the state of of Mississippi, Memphis’ chances of going undefeated, Duke’s chances of making the Final Four, Devean George and the growing-more-defunct Kidd-to-Mavs trade, what we both did for Valentine’s Day, what to do in Washington, D.C., why lesbians seemed to congregate around The Vortex (a midtown/little five points bar in Atlanta) for Valentine’s Day, Hillary and superdelegates, John Lewis, John McCain, 2012, Mitt Romney, Vampire Weekend, the prevalence of penis imagery in modern culture, the non-prevalence of vagina imagery in modern culture, The Vagina Monologues, women who let men walk all over them, men who walk all over women, bathroom graffiti, The Dreamers, basketball on CBS in HD, Deerhoof, Back To The Future Part II, Bill Walton, and golf.
I considered it a pretty guy sort of afternoon, well within the parameters of masculinity. It is, indeed, possible to rock out with your cock out and still 1) be respectful of women, 2) not fear women, and 3) be MINDFUL of women/women’s issues. And for what it’s worth, my wife joined us a while later for a beer before we headed to VM…our maleness is one that women can enjoy too, though natch we work fine when it’s just us guys.
Fearing women is idiotic. Women are great.
What, no Unleaded Premium, or Overheated Cat Converter, or Brake Fluid? Sorry, Peeling Out isn’t a good enough substitute.
Regarding the controversy in comments, I’d like to generalize Thomas’s idea:
The best thing we can do for men is to mock manhood,
to:
A good thing we can do… is to mock everything that people take far too seriously.
Pseudo,
If you would like to go down the list and compare qualifications then please, lets do so. I am extremely tired of the vitriol spewed on blogs by posters like you who assume you know so much more than the person you are attacking. Perhaps you’re more educated and more well-spoken than Dan is but that might very well not be the case. Nothing he said was completely off base and if you look at his posts you will understand that what he was saying was that dismantling the patriarchy is the goal and one way to go about that is to make people realize the negative effects the patriarchy is having on men as this would bring the realization to a wider audience who automatically turn themselves off when they hear the word “feminist”. His argument in many ways is the same as yours he just goes about it in a different way, see post 73 for example.
As far as the women taking over comment, that seems to me like a knee-jerk comment I hear all the time if anyone brings up any of “teh menz” issues. It is about advancing all people and making sure all have equal opportunity free of the gender construst we have in this society. Have a good day.
Am I the only one disturbed by the fact that this apparently comes from the hyper-religious folks at Bluefish TV? Wow, talk about a disconnect!
Thing is… most every note I’ve read here shows intellect and awareness, sensitivity and emotional investment. A lot of polarization, genuine legitimate positions, valid sensibilities from past, and present, realities, utterly cause and effect, revolution in evolution, evolution being factually unavoidable … ~ahem~
Hey, look at that, even I can sound valid.
Oh right, “Thing is…”.
Me, a man, work in trades, very stereotypically male dominated environment. My work environment stated to not be seen as hiding behind an e-veil.
But also to illustrate the flaw here… my co-workers, in the hundreds of thousands, primarily men, engaged and engaging, highly skilled, bread winners, proud, worthy of working respect… are often enough, not exactly shinning beacons of inclusion and fearless acceptance of change.
Not a newsworthy point, I know.
That they, and likewise people, are the actual audience that needs confrontation, daily, minute to minute, is. That this venue based conversation amongst mutually sympathetic people is impotent, also is.
I also don’t make apologies for being male. I’m not a crusader, or guilty by broad brush association with others past tense crimes. Live ethically, try not to be afraid, ask questions, be honest… sounds a simple enough credo.
So, “Thing is…”, if there’s a fight to be had, take that intellectual inertia to where it’s needed. Feed the roots of this thing, don’t just prune the hedges to PC conformity.
Yes, I am being a hypocrite in addressing the running notes here, also preaching to the converted. I also apologize for any perception of making light of things. Humour helps. ~wink~ But, my hypocrisy ends in my daily life, in and out of employment.
A practicality. Here, in Canada, high end tradesmen can make as much as a GP MD per year. Plus, you can toss your gym membership. Instead of hobbyist TV motivated odd home renos, take that challenge and enjoyment to the bank.
Oh, and equal out the domination, and start conversations, rooted in daily mutual respect of proven ability and intellect, that actually create positive change with ‘people’ who need the exposure more.
Last illustration… currently, on a job with over 150 trades workers on site daily. Only 1 trades woman on the whole site. Not due to exclusion, there simply are almost no women to hire.
Err… forgive me, but to the narrower of male mindsets, that propagates an impression that is unavoidable. Not good. It’s a massive population, heavily entrenched, legitimately, in actions-speak-louder-than-words reality. Being both physically and intellectually tired at days end leads to a simpler enbrace of what is accepted truisms in environment. Because of that, changing the perceived truths of what is black and white… is really amazingly easy to achieve.
Oh, and can someone come up with a ‘Moldy Sleeping Bag and Rain’ Mandle? That’d be great for the winter season.
dan&danica,
Once again, nobody here gives two-shits about what you’re whiny-ass “wife”/”husband” has to say since you two (or just one of you) made it abundantly clear that you’re typical anti-feminist trolls (putting up the pathetic front of “oh, but I want to learn, but you still have to coddle me as if I’m a nursing infant, and walk on egg-shells in order to make sure that you don’t hurt my fee-fees and oh so frail ego, or else I’ll get my wife to yell at you because she’s a real woman!“), throwing out the oh so predictable anti-feminist-baiting, flame-comments. You have nothing intelligent to add to the discussion. Whining like a petulant froshie at college because the professor won’t make you the center of his/her class’s universe, is not how to elevate the discourse on a particular subject. And I don’t know what dipshit professor/teacher/whatever told you that being the very personification of the word insanity‘s definition is a good debate tactic (or maybe it wasn’t some professor/teacher, maybe it’s just another example of a lack of maturity and debating competence–despite your supposed age–, not being well-read, or just being a preening-fuckwit, etc). We regulars of feminist blogs know your real intentions/agenda and most of us have lost patience for them a long time ago. So go whine to someone who is masochistic enough to endure reading/listening to them. Like your spouse, who clearly doesn’t mind coddling overgrown children. Not our fault that disingenuous, bullshit artists and overall anti-feminist trolls like you are easy to spot and call out. And if you don’t like the internets or feminist blogs and their commenters, you’re more than welcome to not utilize either one or both of them. It will certainly save some bandwidth. Any bets that dan&danica used to be one of those “fuckwit college newspaper columnists?”
Pseudo,
I still have the vision of you blathering on and on at a Quantum Physics site. In your faux modest spirit you graciously claimed that your expertise lies elsewhere. Fact is, you wouldn’t know how to conduct yourself in a forum that encourages true discourse. In discussions we scientists don’t shout down opposing viewpoints. We aren’t mired down in thousands of years of past history. Theories don’t get extra weight just because the proposer claims special entitlement stemming from an alleged victimhood. You do nothing for true feminist causes. You only lend legitimacy to the dismissing ofwomens’ studies as an invalid academic endeavor, devoid of inquisitive rigor, pursued only by those who can claim special entitlement and who feel they’ve earned the priviledge to condemn valid dissent as “trolling.
“You do nothing for true feminist causes.”
Oh, fucking bullshit. And I suppose that a honestly, concerned commenter such as yourself–barking orders, wagging your widdle and I’m sure ever so strong finger, and telling feminists how to be feminists, on a dead-thread– knows all about true feminist causes? Valid dissent? Please. Your intentions in your little pitiful-attempt-at-a-reprimanding-lecture comment have nothing to do with ensuring a fruitful discussion. No. And bashing women’s/gender-sex studies outright, pfft. Gee, I wonder what you’re doing a feminist blog. Screeching at feminists on how to be real feminists? (eye-roll) And I’m not a women’s studies major, ass. Way off. But it’s obvious your skills of observation when it comes to profiling your fellow commenters are just that–way off. But you had no intention of doing that. No, no. Just making a lame-ass, weak lecture on how feminists should be feminists and how stupid you think women’s studies is. What, did you have to take a women’s studies course as a part of your mandatory college curricula and hated it so much you want to troll feminist blogs from now on? And this thread is pretty much dead so lecture to yourself if you want.
So you have decreed this thread as dead? Perhaps demanding the last word is yet another claim you can make, what with your thousands of years of victimhood and all
OK, this thread is dead but I have to ask about this stat that I have seen quoted by MRAs before: does anyone know if it is actually true that men receive longer sentences for the same crime than women? No replies from MRAs please, even ones with female names. I want a reputable source.
As far as I know the opposite is true in the UK, (see “Eve was framed” by Helena Kennedy) or if not we’re talking about a very recent development. And I’m pretty sure that, at least until recently, the sentences for men who murder their wives are lower than sentences for wives who murder their husband, despite the fact that the majority of the latter are doing it to escape abusers (again: no replies from MRAs please, I want actual facts.)
I suspect that if the “men get higher sentences for the same crimes” thing is not a flat out lie or bit of clumsy statistical manipulation, then it would be very instructive to see it broken down by race. My guess is that what you’d see is that white men get the lowest sentences and black men the highest, and white women and black women coming somewhere in between. I’m willing to be proven wrong, maybe there is some other dramatic difference between UK and US culture that causes the difference, or maybe things have changed a lot quite recently.
Anyway, if anyone here has some numbers from reputable sources please point me to them.