But I wouldn’t mind an e-mail about my next question. It is pretty demoralizing and hurtful when all I hear from my sister’s feminist friends, is how to hurt their future male rapists. In front of me, I hear about how they suggest how to properly taser, kick in the balls, hurt, kill, and do other forms of damage to other humans (males – generally). I treat everyone 50/50, but I don’t see why people should talk about how to hurt other people. Yes, rapists should be tasered, hurt, properly fended off and punished, but this whole prevention thing seems to be turning into an overbearing topic. It’s hard to go a day without hearing how my gender is made of “chauvinists pigs,” and so-forth. Even if they aren’t talking about you, it’s hard not to feel the victim of sexism.

Didn’t we just have the thread mocking those school officials who think men shouldn’t ever have to learn anything from a woman?

I said several times that men have things to learn from feminism. But for the same reasons that men cannot lead feminism, feminists cannot lead men to answers that are relevant to us.

But never let the truth get in the way of a good snark, huh?

Reasonable feminist men, who exist in great numbers and whom you do not speak for, don’t have these problems.

Okay, whenever I see a phrase like that, previous experience of the context tells me that very often the person writing it means, “obedient feminist men who agree with me and do what I say”. That may or may not be what you mean, but let me reflect your words back to you:

“Reasonable women, who exist in great numbers and whom you do not speak for, don’t have these problems”.

Do you see how that sounds? Do you get my point now?

I’m not responsible for the opinions of other men, and I don’t have agree with them. I can have different opinions and not be in the wrong. I believe that mocking “manhood” is harmful and not “good for all of us”, and I’m willing to stand up and say so. You have a tokenist approach to assessing the views of men.

There’s a lot of theory that needs to be worked out on these issues, that I don’t have the tools yet to manage all of it.

However, I think the short version is that, while male privilege is granted by men’s social attitudes, female privilege is granted also by men’s attitudes, and that makes a big difference in the nature and types of privilege that each side get. It also certainly means that male privilege is much greater and more certain than female privilege.

In particular, the privilege that feminism gives, is not something that I see as comparable to other movements, and it exists basically in a particular statement. I’ve heard it said that “the oppressed understand the oppressor better than the oppressor does themselves” and seen that used as a means by which to silence male involvement in a debate, which concept I feel ignores that the majority of men are tools of oppression rather than oppressors themselves, and are thus oppressed to some degree as well.

This is what I mean when I say that women in general, and feminists specifically, do not see the world view that men have. The “world view” that women cannot ignore is one that is imposed from without, it is not (in general) the world view that men share; and just as women cannot ignore it, for different reasons men cannot ignore it either. It might be a “malekind” world view as opposed to individual men’s world view, and it is just as inescapable for men as it is for women.

…men certainly have the right (and the burden) of parsing through that. But that said, patriarchy also benefits men in a lot of ways, and that’s what I worry is being lost in your vision of gender liberation theory.

That doesn’t mean that men shouldn’t also have their own spaces to work through these issues; they should. I understand your point when you say that men want to be able to tell women to listen and learn as well, but I’m hoping that you see the significant power imbalance inherent to that request

I definitely agree with all of this: as I said before, I think that any male movement will need to take on board a lot of what feminism has already worked out. I think that it is impossible for us to take a realistic look at our own circumstances until we have done exactly as you suggest – “step back in certain spaces, listen to women and believe [women's] experiences”. I can only see its harm to me because of listening to women and questioning my own experiences.

As far as the power imbalance goes, I think it cuts both ways, but in different ways and on different levels. On a social and personal level, in fact, on every level except one, I agree that men have the power to create such spaces for themselves and to exclude women. That men have the social ability also to drown out women’s contributions if they wish. Obviously, none of this would be very helpful if we did it.

But on an intellectual level, women have a power advantage, because feminism has been working at gender issues for a long time, and is now very advanced; when it comes to debating and considering these issues for ourselves, men are still in our infancy. I think the point I was making is that we need feminists to be teachers, not mothers – that is, I think our need is to be able to ask for advice, rather than be given answers.

Agreed, but there seems to be a disconnect here with how feminists see it when men want to deal with these issues for themselves (as a recent thread about “mocking manhood” seemed to show!)

No, that’s not what happened, as anyone can verify. Thomas, a man, and JackGoff, a man, to name a few, were dealing with those issues quite handily on the thread in question, despite your objections. One way to deal with them is through self-aware light-heartedness. Feminist men mock manhood sometimes, and it’s good for all of us. Cope.

This is what I experience a lot of the time even now when I intersect with feminist writing.

It’s just you. Reasonable feminist men, who exist in great numbers and whom you do not speak for, don’t have these problems.

ust because you ladies have it all figured out already from your side of the divide.

Please, think carefully and if the thing you’re going to say would sound wrong if a man said it about feminist thinking, then perhaps you should consider it in more depth.

Tell us more about how women are talking down to men, you creepy, patronizing person.

However, when it comes to men figuring out that the patriarchal structures are damaging to us, we can’t have it dictated to us just because you ladies have it all figured out already from your side of the divide.

Wow, deja vu. Didn’t we just have the thread mocking those school officials who think men shouldn’t ever have to learn anything from a woman?

Okay, this is the problem, right here. Women seem to want to be the ones saying that, about everything (including what men do, and think, and experience). I’m saying that men need to be saying this right back at you.

Women have privilege. The existence of feminism, an intellectual and practical approach to dealing with gender issues that has been developed from a female perspective, means you have something we don’t. It makes you privileged. You’re talking down to us all the time, and ignoring our views of the world. This is what I experience a lot of the time even now when I intersect with feminist writing.

Well, some women are more privileged than others, but I think it’s hard to argue that feminism is prove that women as a class are privileged. Is critical race studies proof that people of color are privileged? Anti-colonialist activism proof that people in colonized countries are privileged? The existence of an ideology is not necessarily a mark of privilege.

And I really don’t think women ignore men’s views of the world; we don’t have that option. Men’s views of the world are standardized and normalized; we can’t very well escape them even if we want to.

There are many areas of life and politics and thinking and activism, where feminism is precisely about anti-colonialism. However, when it comes to men figuring out that the patriarchal structures are damaging to us, we can’t have it dictated to us just because you ladies have it all figured out already from your side of the divide.

This, of course, I agree with — it isn’t up to women to dictate to men how patriarchy hurts them. And I do believe that patriarchy hurts men too, and men certainly have the right (and the burden) of parsing through that. But that said, patriarchy also benefits men in a lot of ways, and that’s what I worry is being lost in your vision of gender liberation theory. Men as individuals may be hurt by patriarchy, but a patriarchal system also privileges and benefits men as a class, just like white supremacist systems may do harm to individual white people, but on the whole greatly benefit white people. I think a failure to recognize that is really troubling, and I think it’s impossible to recognize that unless men are willing to step back in certain spaces, listen to women and believe our experiences.

That doesn’t mean that men shouldn’t also have their own spaces to work through these issues; they should. I understand your point when you say that men want to be able to tell women to listen and learn as well, but I’m hoping that you see the significant power imbalance inherent to that request, and that you aren’t assuming men and women are equally privileged.