This time around, a high school student writes in with an issue that I imagine is pretty common among women of all ages — dealing with sexism, and especially sexism from other women.
I’m a seventeen year old student at an all girls’ Catholic school. From Feministe I found other blogs; “Feministing”, “Pandagon” and “I Blame the Patriarchy”, and I’ve been reading and thinking these new concepts over. I’ve also tried to share them in my school during discussions in World Issues, English and World History. I usually get shot down pretty hard.
There are girls who I enjoy drinking with or talking with between classes, but in class they will say racist or sexist concepts like “Why don’t they just stop having babies overseas? Are they too dumb to realize they’re ruining the world?” and simply not understand how it’s racist or sexist and just shout “It’s my opinion!” in defense if anyone challenges their ideas. A lot of these girls believe that women are just inherently inferior to men and say things how most women do belong in the kitchen. A few of them have no intention of paying for their own lives and are working on finding a man to get engaged to. It’s so backwards, but it feels like nothing I say can snap them out of it.
How can I educate and inform in an environment hostile to my ideas?
The upside: I was not nearly this smart nor brave nor aware when I was 17. So to the young woman who sent this in: You rock. And while you may feel like your efforts are futile, I’d imagine that the issues you’re raising in class are at least planting seeds in the minds of some of your classmates. Some of the most important feminist lessons I learned were from sitting back and shutting up — or even from arguing and realizing that, in hindsight, I was dead wrong. So my bit of advice would be, don’t be discouraged. Someone is listening. You’re doing good.
But I imagine other readers have better, and more specific, advice. Suggestions from the peanut gallery?
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I was so you in my high school. And I don’t know anything specifically to help you- except don’t back down. Stick to your guns. Point out whenever possible that they don’t have anything like proof to back up their arguments. I was a walking source book in high school.
Are these arguments civil? You need to stay the calm one, the rational one, with back up to the things you say. Then, who’s more credible? The rational girl or the one who has nothing but her uninformed opinion to back it up?
Stay strong, my friend. :)
This is awesome. I [heart] you, anonymous corresondent.
The Finally, A Feminism 101 Blog FAQ might be one place to start for resources. But one of the best ways to learn feminist debating techniques is by immersion, by doing exactly what you’re doing – hanging around on the blogs, reading the comments sections also, getting involved in online (and, if available, RL) conversation and activism.
I have to go with the keep it civil and positive. As a teen I was the go-to girl for research and odd knowledge and wasn’t into the social whirl. Many of those teenage society girls got it together later and we are now more in sync on those issues. You are ahead of the curve, stay there and keep learning. Many of those who are clueless now will catch up later when it catches their interest.
“Civil and positive” sounds like a good tactic. Try to really listen to them and understand why they believe what they do, even if you disagree with everything they’re saying– stick to your guns, but make the conversation a two-way street. People are less likely to listen if they are feeling defensive, so you need to get them to open up. And don’t forget to lead by example.
Finally, know that you won’t be able to change everyone’s mind, and certainly not right away. Don’t beat yourself up over it– just keep doing your part and you will help make the world a better place.
Hope that was helpful. Keep fighting the good fight!
This is tough. I think sound advice has already been given in the comments prior to my own, but I’ll reiterate. It is important to stick to your guns and lead by example. Live your feminism, don’t just pay it lip service.
First, grow a very thick skin.
Second, this sounds like a letter from my high school self! So welcome to the club feminist padawan.
Next, I agree with the other commenters. Stay calm, rational, and know that someone is listening to you and learning. Stick to your guns and people will slowly realize that you have solid morals & ethics. Then they might ask you to explain more outside of class or out of ear-shot of others.
Keep on reading the news, blogs, magazines and books. After awhile you’ll amaze yourself when you can pull stats out of the air to back your up. If you’re brave enough, it’s hard, I know, do a class report on sterilization abuse in the USA. It really shocks people when they hear the facts…then again sometimes it just proves how racist/sexist others are.
I hear by knight (is there a feminist version of knight?) you an official trouble maker. Wear that label with pride, chica. And feel free to keep in touch.
Oh…create a network of feminist mentors. Not just teachers, but other friends, adults, etc. You must have at least one mentor. If not 10.
As hard as it can be to stand up to people (especially friends) about things that are incredibly imporant, i would echo everyone else’s advice and say “don’t back down.” In the same token, my advice would be to maybe change your approach. No one likes to be challenged and confronting people, especially in front of others, automatically puts them on the defensive. My advice would be to use tactics like humor to disarm those whose first response would be “that’s just my opinion!” The Guerrilla Girls are a great example of that and they even have posters you can use to help educate others :) Hope this helps and STAY STRONG!!! :)
I think my prior advice on talking to your partner is still somewhat applicable.
1. Remind everyone that these people are “people”. Use the word person. It’s a powerful word.
2. Ask why they think that. These young women probably have never considered why they think what they think. Asking them why in a completely non confrontational manner…think curious, not aggravated.
3. Use humor. Sometimes if you want to speak out against an idea without being constantly confrontational (which can be exhausting and isolating) use humor. So for example to: “Why don’t they just stop having babies overseas?” Try something like “Yeah, ’cause there’s a planned parenthood (or OG/GYN, if you want to be less controversial) on every corner in rural Thailand.”
The tough thing (and I still have this problem) is staying calm and thinking of logical ways to engage what they’ve said – for instance, the next time one of them says ““Why don’t they just stop having babies overseas? Are they too dumb to realize they’re ruining the world?” You could point out that A. the babies “they” have will do far less damage to the world, in terms of carbon footprint and consumption of food and energy resources, than the babies “we” have; B. that many of “those” women have access to neither the technology nor the authority to control their reproduction, even if they want to; and C., that institutions like the Catholic Church (ahem) and others are actively trying to keep it that way.
Of course, it’s a helluva lot easier to think of all those things after hte fact, but if they’re friends of yours, you might be able to say, “hey, I was thinking about what you were saying…”
Figure out why you’re discussing what you’re discussing. Then, tailor your tactics to fit. If you’re trying to convince the person you’re talking to, then being nice and positive and looking for points of agreement makes sense. But you may not be. You may find that you’re trying to convince people who are listening that your argument is the reasonable one, and your interlocutor is wrong or acting in bad faith. Then, it makes sense to take a defensible position and try to get the other person to discredit themselves. Or you may just be marking a position; putting a stake in at the outer boundaries of the discourse to free people on your side to speak. You may want to give voice to what some people in the room feel but cannot say. If you do that, you’ll get shot down but you may hear private thanks for weeks after.
take your comments beyond identifying “racist/sexist” remarks and ask questions that look at the common sense roots of these issues. if women overseas “keep having babies” — try to connect it to the availability of birth control in those countries. help your friends see what it would be like to be the women they’re judging. talk about how people make decisions based on the resources available to them.
oh, stay strong!
also, pick your battles. Some people do not want to listen. So it can be good to have a few things to say that challenge the assumptions of the person speaking, but also you can choose leave them to think about it unless they genuinely want to engage with you and talk about it.
The suggestions above are good -asking why people think that, asking what harm “those people” having babies causes compared to your average american consumerproducts gorger. Asking why people would choose to have fewer babies or more babies. ASk whether women could refuse to have babies when their husbands might want them… Ooooh you could also point out that George Bush’s foreign policy and funding for family planning is anti-abortion but more generally anti-birth control so that doesn’t help!
and as far as women being inferior to men – it’s good to have a few examples of the SYSTEMS that keep women out of powerful places, and have done historically. Then you can say how we wouldn’t know whether women would be rocket scientists, presidents, etc, if those systems weren’t there. The fact that law schools didn’t admit women until the 60s or later shapes how women can participate in law & politics, for example. And beyond that shapes what the job of lawyer or politicians looks like (working 60 hour weeks requires a wife at home, basically, especially if there are kids). The systems that kept black women working and separated from black men (and the destruction of black families during slavery), the systematic denial of resources, this shapes how people can be in our society.
The key is to be true to yourself, don’t back down, but also don’t let them get you down! Also, remember that for every person you argue with, another person may be listening and getting strength from you even if they don’t have the courage to speak!
I’d agree with the commenter above who suggests to ask “Why do you think that?” (I’d ask that five times in a row). I’d also ask “What makes you think that?” , just because your peers might be reproducing an idea they’ve heard from their boyfriends/ girlfriends/ parents/ church/ whatever and haven’t really thought through. If you can get folks to actually *think* about what they just said (and what their “opinion” makes them look like), you’ll find that they’ll be a lot more careful wording their opinions the next time around.
Maybe you should talk to the teachers and tell them that they aren’t teaching the students how to have a logical debate. Maybe you can get the teacher to explain to everyone that “it’s my opinon” is not a defense. Some of your classmate’s arguments will fall apart on their own once it is no longer acceptable for them to use fake defenses.
As far as the “having babies overseas” thing goes, you could point out the differences in the way their societies are structured. Here, it can interfere with a woman’s education and keep her from earning much money if she has lots of babies while she’s young, while in many places, a woman is encouraged to have lots of children to help farm or because being fertile is a status symbol that can enable a woman to get better treatment from her husband, especially in the case of polygamy.
The Joys of Motherhood is a really amazing look at this kind of culture. If you’re interested in the subject, you could read the book and then when someone says, “omg too many babies wtf?” you could say, “Hey, I read this great book about it. . .“
I well recall many debates from my all girl catholic school years. Oh the days of classrooms moved into “face off mode.” (pro facing the windows con facing the wall.) I often took the antimajority positions just for the sake of argument, at a catholic school this is enough to get you a reputation as a troublemaker.
Along with the other brilliang suggestions I think it is important to avoid “Ist” lables in your discussions. It’s true, they are being racist, sexist, and probably several other ists as well. But calling someone a racist or a sexist does nothing to convince people you are right, and everything to put them on the defensive. I think it is important that you address the logical fallacies in their arguments instead of how their content is offensive. Make your class mates think!!
Also sometimes I find it helpful instead of being accusitory with someone to “frame” your argument based on yourself. If someone says something assholey like “All Women belong in the home.” for example then you could say “you are so wrong women can do anything” or you can say “I disagree, I know that I am capable of doing more, and I’m not going to let people keep me from doing that.”
Make it about you, and how you’re right, and not about them and how they are wrong. I find that people will fight harder to prove that they are not wrong than to prove that the other person is not right. If you can make it possible for them to change their minds without having to humiliate themselves then you will make more progress.
Also, remember your classmates may choose to limit themselves, but there is no reason you have to let them limit you. Be a REBEL! Be Proud!
In the “stay civil and positive” vein, I’ve personally found it very effective to simply ask people “why?”.
If a woman says to me that women are inferior to men, I ask her why she thinks so. If someone tells me African Americans are inferior to whites, I ask them why they think so.
Sometimes they have reasons (though never good ones), sometimes they have absolutely no idea why, they’ve just swallowed what someone else was selling.
Either way, it will help you learn a lot about where people are coming from. Which can help in combatting these toxic ideas.
Cannot emphasize this point enough. Having a support network is especially important when one is advancing an unpopular position in what could be an isolating classroom environment in high school and depending on the campus, the college/university.
Though my experience is not related to challenging sexism, I had a taste of being isolated without a support network early in my college career when I challenged a Chinese Maoist and White and Asian-American upper/upper-middle class allies* for publicly performing a historical whitewash on The Great Leap Forward and The Cultural Revolution, two disastrous events in recent Chinese history by contending that it was a product of American propaganda.
This despite numerous academic publications on the topics not only from Western, but also mainland Chinese scholars and to some extent, the current regime who has tepidly conceded that those two events were grave policy mistakes by Mao and the CCP leadership.
Unfortunately, due to my campus’ tendency to sympathize with radical left movements and leaders such as Mao Zedong, I ended up being isolated from everyone except the International Asian students** for most of my first year and a half at my school until some of those Pro-Maoists started to realized the veracity of my challenge by taking a Modern Chinese history/politics course.
* Many of the mainland Chinese students knew the real deal about those events, but feared repercussions not only from the campus Maoists, but also from their own government back home as the Chinese government still discouraged discussion of such topics by anyone except approved scholars at the time (1990′s).
** The Chinese Maoist classmate was from a radical CCP party cadre family which still believes in the correctness of Mao’s policies. The White and Asian-American upper/upper-middle class allies were the “Mao Zedong is cool” types who had no idea of who he really was and how his policies affected the Chinese people, including members of my own family.
I went to all-girls Catholic high school, and I’m sorry that you’re in the minority on this, because most of my graduating class was feminist by the end of our senior year. Are there any teachers you see as allies? My English teacher was instrumental in helping me formulate and articulate my feminism, and her classroom was a great place for real, impassioned debate. It also helps a lot to have an authority figure say it first because it creates a safe space; it sounds like the girls you’re dealing with are less likely to question authority than they are to question you. It’s also good if you can find at least one other student to stand with you; start a little “radicals corner” of the classroom and sit together if you have to. A little moral support can go a long way to increase your confidence.
Stay calm, use humor, and don’t get discouraged. You’re doing a great job.
Know that even though there will be times when you feel every single person in the room disagrees with you (and you may be right), you would feel MUCH more regret in saying nothing and letting hateful speech go unchecked than you will from saying something no one agrees with. The times I look back on and feel the worst about are the times I let myself be silenced, not the times I was berated, ostracized, or even threatened for speaking the truth.
Know your side and arguments well, but also know their arguments. This way you can have counterpoints lined up, ready to go. I find scanning right-wing blogs is helpful with that. It also helps with getting used to being very worked up and angry (there is nothing quite like reading the annonymous comments of racist misogynists to get me worked up) and still make calm, poised and civil arguments. Because while being calm and civil is SOOOO important it’s fucking hard as hell for me! Practice helps.
Another feminist looking at this letter and thinking “that was me.”
I got a little more than just arguments; I got harassed and yelled at and I had “dyke” screamed at me in the hallways because I was different.
Agreed on all counts — stay positive, stay firm, be the rational one, and if you think you can get a teacher to help you get them to actually use arguments like the intelligent people you all are, do that. That’s a great idea.
Like everyone who has been posting on this thread, I see a lot of my own experience in your story. It is difficult to keep your cool in a situation where you feel like your friends are not only wrong but insulting to you and themselves. (That very well may be a counterproductive way to think about it, but I can never help feeling that way!) It always helps me to remember that you can never know what kind of impact you might have on the way these women think. Most people don’t just back down in an argument and start agreeing with the other person … it goes against the grain. However, you clearly think about the things that your friends say to you after the conversation is over and it’s likely that they will reconsider the things that you say afterward as well. Given that, it makes a lot of sense to offer as much information as possible, rather than just shouting your opinion. (Which I love to do when people say anti-feminist things that piss me off). If you share a lot of facts, then they are more likely to make an impression than your opinion.
Also, find a support group/individual who will commiserate with you when you feel particularly aggravated. That way you won’t feel like you have to express everything you feel in the arguments.
Good luck!!
I came from the all-girls’ catholic high school and not I’m at an engineering college where there’s more guys than anything. Keep talking to your friends and speaking your mind…never let them change that about you. But at the end of the day we have to move on and know that we have the right attitude, we’re doing things that make us happy, productive, and progressive. Some of them will “see the light” but the important thing to realize is that those people are slowly becoming the minority. And reach out to this community if you need a hand.
We got your back!
One way to address statements like “women are inferior to men” or to that effect is to ask, in an even tone, “your belief that women are inferior, do you have a basis for it or is it possible you are mistaken?” or “do you have facts that support your opinion”? You may not convince your interlocutor but you may get others in the room to start thinking more critically. Some will indeed stop at “it’s my opinion” but it follows that if no facts undergird your opinion, it stands like the Coyote over the edge of the cliff.
I hate to say it, but you pretty much have to ignore them. High school is pretty much the last chance a lot of people have to be really stupid in their statements and actions (although for some college is just an extension). I remember when I was in high school all kinds of stupid ideas were thrown out by my peers. There isn’t much that can be done. People like that need more time to mature and unfortunately, most of them never take the time to grow.
I always found the counter argument of “Well it’s just my opinion” to be pretty damned stupid. I most certainly hope that it’s “your opinion” otherwise you’re just a parrot with no self will. It isn’t even a real counter argument! It doesn’t improve their logic or make their argument any better, it simply sidesteps the challenge and doesn’t answer your questioning of their opinion. You might try calling them on that next time. I also suggest studying the basic logical fallacies to recognize them and possibly point them out to them. This is high school after all and some people just don’t realize the lack of logic behind their statements. Pointing it out might help them grow (or it might just alienate them, whatever), even though that’s what the teacher should be doing.
For specific counter examples to their earlier statements of things like “People overseas should stop having babies” you could point out that as Americans (I might be presumptive in assuming that you’re in the USA, but I’ll take that chance), we take up the largest amount of land per person in order to maintain our consumptive lifestyle.
All in all, it might just be best to accept that this is high school and there is usually a lack of maturity and experience that early on in life.
Ganbatte.
Did she say that she drinks between classes? J/k I couldn’t resist.
I would agree with the common theme here, stay positive. Getting confrontational will take you nowhere. There is a reason why “lead by example” is such good advice. Also, know your audience; teenagers in a private, religious school may have a certain upbringing which has ingrained a particular perception of gender roles into their psyche.
If you stay positive and use your words selectively (I agree w/ the use of “people”, it is powerful!) and avoid arguments with idiots, you will be fine. Don’t expect to fully change a teenagers mind, they will probably have a different moral code in five years, anyway. the best you can do at this point is to leave them with a positive perception of feminists, since you are probably their first real experience with one. Good luck!
A few of them have no intention of paying for their own lives and are working on finding a man to get engaged to.
Just remember the old saying: “Be careful what you wish for; you might get it.”
I want to second Shinobi on this
Also, realize that it’s not all on you. Taking on the challenge of converting everyone to feminism is really hard. You are just one person, and if you expect to be able to convince everyone that you are right (even when you are *totally right*!), you will probably be disappointed. As other commenters have said, though, you’ll be planting a seed – giving them something to think about, and that is very important.
So go nuts – keep going at it, have the facts at your fingertips, anticipate their arguments, but also – don’t despair if they don’t come around to your way of thinking. This is a long-haul type fight, so don’t neglect yourself and take time to do things you really enjoy, as well, just for your own sanity.
Besides following everyone else’s advice, I would suggest trying to introduce women’s personal stories to the debate. While I don’t know what the forum is that these debates occur in, I second the above suggestion of trying to make presentations/show films about tough issues. I have always found it is easy for people to be critical in the abstract, it is much harder to make blanket statements when you hear a woman’s first hand account of the hardships she has faced. Whether this is about birth control/repro. rights, property/ownership rights, access to education or jobs, finding ways to let the voices of women be heard not only makes a more powerful argument but also means you aren’t always the one fighting to be right – you provide materials/proof that you are right without you having to take the defensive.
as a snide side note – i might also include divorce statistics next time they mention being taken care of.
Odd, how is a 17 year old “drinking”? Either this writer is illegal or a sockpuppet.
My sister’s Catholic high school was also a hotbed of feminism; apparently times have changed.
A couple of points: Almost all women will have to earn a living, so women need to be prepared to do so. The failure rate of new marriages is high, and often enough do not survive the birth of a child or two. One man is hard-pressed to support even one household, much less two. Therefore women need to accept the possibility that they will go into the workforce as young mothers. Even if the couple stays together, in many areas of the country, two incomes are needed to buy a house. On the average, men die younger than women, so the probability of being a widow is higher, and life insurance cannot take care of survivors for a lifetime.
Another tack: Ask which rights the classmates would want to give up? The right to vote? The right not to be either their father’s chattel or their husband’s? Personal autonomy? Bodily integrity? Equal pay for equal work?
I would try to talk to people one-on-one as often as possible. Yes, its true that talking in front of a group might convince that woman in the back corner, maybe, but I have always found its easier to get flustered when there is a group-verses-one. It is more likely you will get that one person to open up to you in private rather than in front of a group.
I agree with whoever said doing reports/speeches on feminist topics might be a good idea. There, you will have a well-presented, researched topic with lots of statistics to back you up.
I think it is also important not to “other” these girls, either. You aren’t the “good” feminist to their “bad anti-feminists”. Remember that they have had different experiences with their schools, churches, and families than you may have. They can still be good people who are simply misguided. If you look down on them, it will show in your attitude, and your remaining high school time will be lonely. Its not your job to convert them, and try to remember that many women change their attitudes when they graduate high school and experience freedom from the attitudes and influences they grew up with- I certainly did. College and/or the Real World is a dose of reality where suddenly abortion might be necessary, and world travel can open eyes to the fact that the rest of the world is not America.
Best of luck.
Mold-
Come on now. Don’t be naive. Didn’t you go to high school?
Chrissakes, Mold, you’re never met a teenager who drinks in spite of the law? Does nobody smoke pot ’cause it’s illegal?
As to the OP: it might be helpful, in terms of strategy, to think of the way martial artists carefully practice moves as specific responses to certain kinds of attacks–you know, if a punch comes from this direction, you respond this way, and so on–and get a few arguments or sets of facts down pat, so that you can pull them out whenever you need to and gain enough advantage to think on your feet from there on in. It’s not about memorizing one argument to use over and over–it’s about practicing having your resources close to hand and knowing what sorts of patterns work, so you can improvise from there. A well-placed bit you know well is often enough to give you the upper hand and put other folks on the defensive.
The combat model isn’t a great one for what should be a process of cooperative education, but it’s something, you know?
That said? Good on you for standing up. I know in my high school we had lots of trouble making arguments like these. Keep up the good work.
You know, human beings are able to imbibe beverages that are non-alcoholic in nature. Moreover, this process is often referred to as “drinking”.
Fascinating, i know.
Chandara -
Heh. But really, though. I think the chances of that being what she meant are pretty much slim to none.
I’m 19 and really started getting into feminism during my junior year in high school.
It was rough. I was lonely.
I signed up for a lot of discussion classes, like political science, and practiced witty retorts. It was the best I could do.
I wish I knew this 17 year old girl. I want to be her friend. I wish I knew more badass college-aged feminists in Boston.
Discuss in smaller groups. It’s easier to shame idiots when there isn’t a crowd to back them. Hmm.. maybe that’s not the best advice.
I’d say be firm on your beliefs, gentle in your approach with others in that they may not be speaking their minds, only what their family/experience has programmed them to say- they might not have even had a moment to think it through… give them that time. And remember, you’re brilliantly informed, aware and mature for your age. Even with all of the light you have to shed, others just may not “get it”.
Hi
I’m the person who sent this in. I just want to say that the advice thus far has been really, really good. The people who write for and comment on this site are a huge inspiration for me and they’ve taught me a lot already. The advice here is really, really valuable and I’m really glad that this new feature is on the site.
Oh, and yes, I am a law-breaker. A devious one. I make no apologies!
If there is a sympathetic teacher, think about starting a group. For instance, my mom — a feminist librarian — runs something called the Diversity Circle at the local highschool. Once you have a group, you can host interesting speakers from the area who work against sexism, racism, etc., participate in community service events, AND legitimately put up posters around your highschool to raise awareness on the issues. It also opperates as a tool to identify and form friendships with other feminists. I know it has been a big success at my mom’s highschool and may work better than you expect at yours.
You could also use women’s stories from your own life, not just from books and films. Something like “I’d be scared to depend on my husband completely. Look at my mom’s friend Mary, her husband was in a car accident and couldn’t work for a long time! Thank goodness she had a good job.” You should definitely also bring up the Church’s stand on birth control when discussing women who have “too many babies” – not in an anti- Church way, just pointing out that in many highly Catholic societies, women, their families, their priests, and the ruling powers are all against birth control…and how else do you restrict the number of kids you have?
Don’t forget that even if they shoot back with an excuse now, they have heard what you said. You’ve planted the seed, and later when they are confronted with having to decide for themselves rather than their parents, they will remember what you said:-) That’s something I remind myself of so I don’t feel so helpless.
First off: Go you! It takes a lot of courage to take on this kind of battle, especially in high school. (I’m on my way to being a high school teacher myself, and trust me, the discussion gets even worse in the staff room.)
My advice is to find allies, be they friends or teachers. You’re not alone. But particularly in a high school environment, a lot of people will be afraid to speak up, even if they agree with you. It’s important to have people to vent to and bounce ideas off of.
When I’m confronted with people who hold sexist or racist beliefs that they haven’t particularly examined, especially if I’m on relatively friendly terms, I often start a debate by questioning them. “Why do you feel inferior to men? What would you do if you were dependent on a man and he left you for another woman?” A lot of the time, they’re afraid of the term “feminism,” but when you get them to think about it, they’ll agree with the fundamental concepts behind it.
I don’t go to Catholic school, but I am 16 and have issues with this kind of thing sometimes too.
Pretty much anything you can do is stated above. But calm and collected is necessary. And really good friends can be easier to sway. Simply mention, “doesn’t it suck how girls are always sluts when guys get to do whatever they want?” That kind of thing is easier for many people to process and accept compared to a debate.
Finally, if you ever want to talk, that is fine by me. I wouldn’t mind in the least.
I went to a catholic school so I totally sympathize. My question to you is how much pressure is there for you (and the other girls) to tout the catholic church line? Because I would often find that girls who did not hold the “traditional” beliefs felt the need to overcompensate by being extra harsh on issues like pre-marital sex, abortion, and social welfare to people who “don’t deserve it”. Bullshit I know, but maybe the problem is that they don’t feel like they can be honest about their opinions without being censured. If that is the case, what I found most helpful in my situation was to voice my feelings about the topic and put myself out there as the contrary opinion. Once I did that, my friends felt the need to vocalize their thoughts in my defense.
I don’t recommend this if you don’t think your school will provide you a safe space to do so. I would hate for you to get suspended or to be alienated from the rest of your peers. So if this isn’t a viable option, i would stick with the advice of the rest of the commentators and stay positive and calm when you talk to your friends about these issues.
Good luck and thanks for being brave enough to ask these questions!
I’m also a feminist 17-year-old high school student, and I first want to say: rock on.
Next, I’d like to mention that English class is a great place to bring up criticisms of sexism! If you’re reading a book that stereotypes women hurtfully, bring it up in class discussion. Write a paper about it. If you see your fellow students making judgments about literary characters based on gender, call them on it. English class is a great place to start because no one can make hurtful, misogynous comments. The teacher is there watching, so they have to play by the rules. Also, your teacher may agree with you and help you argue the point! That happened just a week ago in my English class. We were discussing a literary theorist and came to one of his ideas about gender. I brought up a criticism of his simplistic ideas of gender, and my classmates started loudly disagreeing with me. My teacher took up the slack and enhanced my arguments.
Wow that is so awesome to all the young feminists speaking out. My advice is don’t be hard on yourself if you don’t have the full answer or rebutal to everything now. Life is a learning process and your intellectual curiosity will take you very far. Understand that you have the power to plant a very important seed but you do not have to give other people all of the information out there on a topic. Just as you will surely learn more on these topics, if the seed for feminist thought is planted, so will they. (Also not your responsibility to plant all seeds and change all minds. No one person can take that on alone. Small steps are an enormous contribution.)
Combine the “why” question with a gentle reminder that they are women, that when they say things about women, it applies to them too:
Script: “But you are a woman? Do you feel like you are more stupid than a man? Gee, that’s a horrible way to feel. Why do you feel like that”
[Response most likely will be: not me, but those other stupid women]
“Really? What do you think the difference is between you and those women? What has helped you avoid being like them?”
[Response hopefully may point to a difference in access to resources]
“So are you saying that those women are stupid, or are you saying that if you don’t have an education/ caring parents/ exposure to religion, women might make poor decisions. Do you think that’s only true of women, or do you think it could apply to men too?”
This sounds like my AP lit class senior year. We had a feminist teacher, and although she never told us she was such, I felt I had that one down because she devoted a lot of the course time to reading and purposefully analyzing how women were portrayed in literature. Anyway . . . we read Kate Chopin’s The Awakening. There were a group of girls who *insisted* that the husband was in the right because, you know, his wife was an uppity bitch that didn’t comply to his every whim. The point I would like to make is that you should never shut up when you don’t agree. I wasn’t the most vocal about how this was complete bullshit(there was another girl that liked to talk about ten times more than I did), but I did speak up.
History is a *much* harder class to be a feminist in, though. For starters, you usually get more socially educated English teachers that reconize oppression when they see it. Also, some times history teachers can just portray the ‘manly’ version of history. But read up on some the time periods you’re studying outside of class. You’ll be surprised to find out about all the other ‘small’ pieces of history that have to do with minority groups and not just the guys (literally) in charge at the time.
Also, don’t let the ‘ugly’ card get you down. If you show you have a brain, people are going to try to undercut your appearance. It always happens, but they’re just trying to get you to shut up. So don’t.
Wow, good for you. I’m a few years older than you, but pretty much in the same position(aren’t we all?). It’s tough out there, so the first thing I’d want to advise you is don’t feel down if you get intimidated, or if you don’t have a snappy comeback. You’re not failing feminism if you make a mistake, can’t think of all the arguments, or somebody else thinks they’ve outtalked you. I’ve been there and sometimes the only thing you can do is call it a day, and try again later. I think it’s very important for you not to get disheartened by criticism, or people not listening. and also, if you feel unsafe or unhappy in these conversations, do what you feel right for you. You don’t need to be a martyr for the movement or make yourself suffer.
I’m saying this, because I know how it feels to feel like you both have to stand up, because no one else will, but then have to deal with not being engaged, your rational points dismissed or dealt with with non-logic, or booed or intimidated. Tehre have been many times when I’ve stood up for what I believe, but there have been times when I haven’t been able to, or it would have been unwise or dangerous to. It’s OK to be silent, sometimes. Nobody has the rights to tell us we have to make a stand at any one moment, because our whole life is a stand.
My personal technique for bringing people round to feminist theory is rather long and strategic. First, I try to get people talkint about their own experiences. Most girls and women will have stories of some sort that relate ot what they’ve suffered. Sometimes it pays to pick which topics to discuss based on what they’re more likely to agree on, or at least be able to see the point to. I tend to start with what relates to them, and the injustuces they face, and build around that. It pays to take talks about feminism gradually, and introduce concepts like ‘patriarchy’, ‘privilege’ and the like, but you don’t have to name them. I find that it’s more effective if you focus on the idea behind it, rather than the names and terms, which can be alienating. In my experience I’ve had quite a bit of success in getting people to engage with concepts by slowly building up these ideas in successive conversations. This also works better one on one, and definitely not with two people who violently disagree with you. I alwayts find it funny how such people complain you are pushy if you assert your points,, but have absolutely no compunctions about ganging up on you, speaking at the same time, and telling you that if you disagree with the two/three/whatever of them that you’re silly. So I suggest tackle people one on one. They feel they have less to prove, are less emboldened than when they think someone else shares their opinion, and can’t try to browbeat you with the numbers game. They’ll be more willing to listen on their own, and the talk will probably be calmer on all sides.
I think you’re definitely doing the right thing by reading blogs. Knowledge is power, and it always helps me feel more confident, and be more persuasive if I have an argument at hand. Also, read up on science, or at least enough to knoe that evo psych is bunk and that women and men aren’t inherently that different. Rather that many differences are cultural, and that variation withuin any group ‘white’ or ‘men’ is greater, than variation between groups.
If you get too worked up – I don’t mean to be patronising, I mean when you get to that point where you feel tired, and it’s going round in circles, and they’re JUST NOT LISTENING AAARRGH!!! call it a day. I’ve been there, and it’s tiring. It doesn’t help you to be miserable, and if you can’t make a coherent point, you won’t exactly win votes. soemtimes you get to that point where you just have to agree to disagree (meaning cut it off because they are so deluded/trollish/whatever that you know you won’t be able ot do it, at least not on that topic, and not yet.
Apologies if that all sounds calculating. It’s not necessarily a consious thing for me, it just seems to make sense to not bring up all the complex theory at once. Of course, what kind of dicsussion is had depends on the other speaker.
Also, remember that you win some, you lose some. You’re not going to get everybody to see sense, (and some of them will, but much later), but you will make a difference, even if you don’t feel it. Adri is right in this respect. It could be that they’ve led a sheltered life, and when they reach the big wide world, they’ll realise and remember. I identified as a feminist since long before my teens, but I still had a lot of messed up or not thought through ideals (nothing as crazy as ‘women are inverior to men’, but things that I’ve done a 180 on. So it is perfectly possible many of these young women will realise what you’re saying is true.
Last of all, good luck! Your situation is pretty much the one we’re all in some time or another, so it’s a very good question, and htere is no one answer. It all depends on the situation.
OO, I forgot… ask them ‘why’ a lot. Tesing out why someone feels that way usually draws good results, because if you gently talk about the reasons, and deconstruct them enough, the person can see themselves that they are a bit meaningless, or where they come from better. I think it’s a very useful way to bring people around if you let them think through themselves, so they feel that they’ve made a descovery and a deceision rather than being preached to. A lot of people are really put off by feeling like someone knows more than them and is commanding them. It’s silly that a lot of people don’t like admitting they are wrong, and are really immature, but when you’re trying to spread a message, you have to deal with what you get.
Aah, my persuasice skills learned under the Patriarchy… well, I’m putting them to good use, at least. :D