Of course I know that you mean sex between two people of the same sex. I asked this question because I would hope that you would think about exactly what act you find immoral. When people refer to straight sex they are usually referring to penile penetration, and this may not happen between people of the same sex. If two people of the same sex caress each other, would that be immoral? If they kiss, is that immoral? I mean, where would you draw the line? It’s kind of fascinating that you would find an expression of love between people immoral, but anyway…..

“As to why, I think it is immoral you know that as well. For many of us, sex is not supposed to be used as a wholly selfish thing to satisfy our own animalistic cravings. Homosexuality is just that. So is adultery. It should further the bond between a husband and a wife and, when possible, be used to create a family. I’m sure you don’t find it immoral to use sex however one pleases and that’s fine.”
Is it selfish to have sex? People do experience sexual desire and might have a difficult time without release of that desire. If its selfish to give into animalistic cravings that do not hurt anybody, then is it selfish to eat, scratch, massage, stretch, bathe, exercise… I mean sex is just rubbing a part of your body, basically… not sure why that would be immoral. It’s interesting that you say you think its fine if other people use sex for different reasons than you, because you really don’t think its fine. You’d like the government to continue actively going against homosexuality. This isn’t just neutral. Having gay marriage illegal denies a portion of the population the same rights as other people. Allowing gay marriage would be neutral, because everyone has the same rights, and the government would not be encouraging people who are heterosexual to become homosexual, only treating everyone equally. Roy already discussed this in the post above.

“So as I said before, I’m not interested in the gov’t storming down your door for having any type of consensual sex at all. But I do not want the gov’t taking actions which tacitly approve of it. “

So if I find heterosexual sex morally wrong, can I fight to make heterosexual marriages illegal? I mean, something that a few people find wrong, according to you, should be made illegal even for other peole who don’t find it wrong.

“Anyone, like many on this site (maybe you?), who argue “people should be able to do what they want in the privacy of their own homes” are either idiots or liars. That’s not what the real issue is about at all.

It’s about pushing homosexuality into the public sphere and telling anyone and everyone that there’s nothing wrong with it. Many find that extremely offensive and odious. “

yes, I agree that if someone is doing something in privacy and its not hurting anyone, then there’s no reason for the government to interfere with it. I also think that homosexuality should be in the public sphere because there is nothing wrong with it. Young homosexuals grow up scared and confused in a climate of hate. They drop out of school more often, are bullied more often, and have a suicide rate three times that of straight youth (that statistic is from canada). It is totally wrong to actively encourage a culture of hate that encourages violence and suicide. hating peole so they want to die is much more immoral than loving someone!

“I wouldn’t want laws encouraging affairs, polygamy, necrophila, or bestiality either. “

“As for the rest of your post. It just says their are a bunch of psychologists who argue it is not a choice, though it sounds like they don’t really say that anyway. It sounds like they just say it’s a really tough choice as many people have a strong desire. In any event, even if some claim it is not a choice (I never said otherwise), it is still strongly disputed and many who have voiced their opinions have done so based on political leanings instead of science. The point is, you’re trying to pretend it is not highly debatable and that’s false.”

ok, ok. Psychologist are not “arguing”, they are doing research and reporting on their research, and they are treating patients clinically based on that research. They are also not making “claims”. By the way, the people who are against gay rights are against it because of “political leanings” and “claims”. i mean, come on, you think that expressions of love between peole are immoral, but actively making people’s lives worse by treating them like second class citizens is not immoral to you.

“If some people are unsure of their sexuality and it is a choice, then it is critical to those of us who think homosexuality is immoral that it not be encouraged by the government.”

Ok, so you are now openly admitting that if YOU think something is immoral, then it should be actively discouraged by the government, even though there is no proof that it is harmful to society. And by the way, homophobia IS harmful to society. You’ve been blasting all of us for being “bigots” but your own bigotry is highly visible in this sentence.

“We want them, and society at large, steered away from immorality. “

I want people steered away from immorality too, which is why I dont like homophobia.

“Not by throwing people in jail for having consensual sex, but by not having the government announce that as a society we think homosexuality is fine and we’ll treat it like heterosexuality instead of acts we still, at least for now, realize are immoral such as necrophila, polygamy, and bestiality.”
As a society, we do not think homosexuality is wrong. I haven’t polled Americans, but there are several countries who have legalized same-sex marriage and more than half of canadians are ok with it. Sorry I only have Canadian stats, but I live here.

“Again. I don’t pretend to claim that for some the urge might be incredibly powerful. I’m disgusted by those on the right who just yell and scream and demean people personally for committing an act they, on the right, believe is immoral. ”

So yelling and screaming is not ok, but demeaning people by typing is ok? Because you are demeaning people right now.

It really is sad to see someone who can have an affair, beat their wife etc. stand their and say “I hate gays.”

it’s really sad to see anyone hating entire groups of people, especially the ones they’ve never met. Anyone who hates something they’ve never met is hating based on assumptions and stereotypes.

“Now. I took a lot of time to thoughtfully answer your question. I do hope you won’t just pluck a few lines and ask some other question, but instead reciprocate and thoughtfully respond to what I wrote.”
I hope this was thoughtful enough for you.

one more question: If sex for anything other than procreation is wrong, then I’m wondering if masterbation is also wrong, and if the government should be actively discouraging porn, motels, sex toys, sexy lingerie, massage oil, contraception, KY jelly, etc, because all these things could send the message that having sex is ok, therefore they are immoral?

Or to put it another way. In what way is it conducive to the strength of families that if C were to die tomorrow, the law would likely tear their son away from his remaining mother and hand him over to C’s relatives to raise him to believe that both of his mothers would burn forever in hell?

But that’s not what I said. I do wish Holly saw this because she called it “quibbling” (as did others maybe?) when I tried to explain the situations I’m dealing with time and again throughout this thread.

When I say necrophilia I’m talking about a situation where there is no consensual problem. The only issue is morality. For example, suppose a person writes in their will before dying that they give permission for their body to be used for sex.

Do you have a problem with that?
I do. Morality is the only reason to object.

Same for bestiality where I’m talking about a case where it is scientifically clear that the animal is not hurt and perhaps even enjoys it. Again, the only issue can be morality. I still object to it.

I have to say, i’ve got no problem debating people, but time and again everyone here has failed to read what i write and instead has attributed positions to me i have never taken and indeed often explicitly not taken. before you respond, especially with such hostility, make sure you actually respond to what i said.

Wait, wait, wait.
How is it that homosexual sex is “just” used to “satisfy our own animalistic cravings”? What makes you think that heterosexual couples can further their bond through sex, but homosexual couples can’t?

So as I said before, I’m not interested in the gov’t storming down your door for having any type of consensual sex at all. But I do not want the gov’t taking actions which tacitly approve of it…

…It’s about pushing homosexuality into the public sphere and telling anyone and everyone that there’s nothing wrong with it. Many find that extremely offensive and odious. I wouldn’t want laws encouraging affairs, polygamy, necrophila, or bestiality either.

There’s a huge difference between “encouraging” and “allowing”. Nobody is suggesting that the government should be out there “recruiting” homosexuality or something. Nobody thinks that there should be government programs designed to increase the number of homosexuals. What is being argued is that homosexuals are citizens, too, and ought to have the same rights and privileges that everyone else is entitled to. I don’t get to arbitrarily deny people their rights just because I find them odious or morally repugnant.

And how is granting homosexuals the same rights as straight couples the same as the government endorsing something?

Saying this is about what goes on the bedroom is just taking a brain-dead approach by picking up a lobbyists talking-point. Plenty on the right and left do this, but it’s pathetic and intellectually gets you nowhere.

Except that you’ve as much as admitted that it’s, ultimately, about what happens in the bedroom. Your issue is that homosexuals have homosexual sex. You’ve said that it’s not the inclination, it’s the action. Oh, sure, you claim that you don’t mind if they do it and keep it behind closed doors- but the problem is that you find homosexual sex immoral, which means that, yes, it’s ultimately about what happens in the bedroom.

Take someone like Betty. A really hateful and angry person. She doesn’t just want to be allowed to go about her business in the privacy of her own home. She wants to make sure any and everyone who disagrees with her in the public sphere is silenced and not entitled to their opinion on the morality of the matter.

I don’t think that’s accurate. I think she just doesn’t think that bigots should be able to control the rule of law and unfairly deny entire categories of people the rights and privileges they deserve.

Not by throwing people in jail for having consensual sex, but by not having the government announce that as a society we think homosexuality is fine and we’ll treat it like heterosexuality instead of acts we still, at least for now, realize are immoral such as necrophila, polygamy, and bestiality.

Oh, fuck you.
I can’t believe I missed this the first time I read your response.

That is why people like me think that people like you are bigots. First of all, because you are. But also, because eventually, you show your true colors. Consentual sex between adults is not the same as raping an animal or violating a corpse, and using comparisons like that- attempting to dehumanize homosexuals- that’s not intellectually honest, and it just makes you look like a complete asshole.

Oh, right, and a bigot.

Which, I suppose, takes us back to square one.

It really is sad to see someone who can have an affair, beat their wife etc. stand their and say “I hate gays.” What’s worse though, is when ostensibly reasonable and intelligent people try to stereotype and cast everyone who finds homosexuality immoral just like that person.

The worst is when people who think they’re extremely smart and oh-so-reasonable hold ugly, ignorant, and offensive ideas like the idea that homosexual sex is comparable to raping an animal or violating a corpse.

bushfire (106): I did not understand your question before. The action is sex between two people of the same gender (I think you knew that already).

As to why, I think it is immoral you know that as well. For many of us, sex is not supposed to be used as a wholly selfish thing to satisfy our own animalistic cravings. Homosexuality is just that. So is adultery. It should further the bond between a husband and a wife and, when possible, be used to create a family. I’m sure you don’t find it immoral to use sex however one pleases and that’s fine.

So as I said before, I’m not interested in the gov’t storming down your door for having any type of consensual sex at all. But I do not want the gov’t taking actions which tacitly approve of it.

Anyone, like many on this site (maybe you?), who argue “people should be able to do what they want in the privacy of their own homes” are either idiots or liars. That’s not what the real issue is about at all.

It’s about pushing homosexuality into the public sphere and telling anyone and everyone that there’s nothing wrong with it. Many find that extremely offensive and odious. I wouldn’t want laws encouraging affairs, polygamy, necrophila, or bestiality either.

Saying this is about what goes on the bedroom is just taking a brain-dead approach by picking up a lobbyists talking-point. Plenty on the right and left do this, but it’s pathetic and intellectually gets you nowhere.

Take someone like Betty. A really hateful and angry person. She doesn’t just want to be allowed to go about her business in the privacy of her own home. She wants to make sure any and everyone who disagrees with her in the public sphere is silenced and not entitled to their opinion on the morality of the matter.

As for the rest of your post. It just says their are a bunch of psychologists who argue it is not a choice, though it sounds like they don’t really say that anyway. It sounds like they just say it’s a really tough choice as many people have a strong desire. In any event, even if some claim it is not a choice (I never said otherwise), it is still strongly disputed and many who have voiced their opinions have done so based on political leanings instead of science. The point is, you’re trying to pretend it is not highly debatable and that’s false.

If some people are unsure of their sexuality and it is a choice, then it is critical to those of us who think homosexuality is immoral that it not be encouraged by the government. We want them, and society at large, steered away from immorality. Not by throwing people in jail for having consensual sex, but by not having the government announce that as a society we think homosexuality is fine and we’ll treat it like heterosexuality instead of acts we still, at least for now, realize are immoral such as necrophila, polygamy, and bestiality.

Again. I don’t pretend to claim that for some the urge might be incredibly powerful. I’m disgusted by those on the right who just yell and scream and demean people personally for committing an act they, on the right, believe is immoral. I do think part of the frustration for many, including myself, comes from the nauseating (and ironic) “holier than thou” and “i’ll shove it in your face” approach of gay-rights advocates.

It really is sad to see someone who can have an affair, beat their wife etc. stand their and say “I hate gays.” What’s worse though, is when ostensibly reasonable and intelligent people try to stereotype and cast everyone who finds homosexuality immoral just like that person. And that’s what gay-rights advocates, by and large, do.

Now. I took a lot of time to thoughtfully answer your question. I do hope you won’t just pluck a few lines and ask some other question, but instead reciprocate and thoughtfully respond to what I wrote.

I’m not at all concerned whether you don’t like the “orientation” or the “act”. I’ve been trying to get you to say why this is immoral, and you haven’t touched this question. Which action is immoral, exactly? Why is this action immoral?

“Unfortunately for you it is far from generally accepted. Instead, much (though not all) of the gay community wants to believe this so they’ll accept it as fact long before science has come close to proving it as such.

You can misuse science the same way those who want to believe the world is 6,000 years old do and just find the bits that support you and ignore its weaknesses or the studies to the contrary, but it is a misuse of science.”

It’s really not that unfortunate for me that some people don’t believe in psychological research. I can still go to a psychologist and get help with issues dealing with my sexuality if I want. Maybe there are psychologists in the States who ignore current research and decide to be homophobic anyway? In Canada they generally stick to the research that shows changing one’s sexual orientation is harmful. You seem to think that it is only the gay community who wants to believe that orientation is not a choice. There are actually many straight people who realize that love between two people is something to celebrate and that people who are inclined to love others of the same sex should not have to hide their feelings from society. Just check out a PFLAG group, they exist all over the U.S. and Canada. Actually, my straight friends really helped me to accept my orientation when I was first noticing it. (Although it is much more than just PFLAG groups who support gay rights).

You still think I am “misusing” science. Well, I’ve read several textbooks on human sexuality and I believe what they say. Is that “misusing” science? Perhaps you’re one of those people who think that psychology is not a legitimate science, and well, that is another conversation. When researchers conduct studies about sexual orientation and come to the conclusion that it is harmful to try to change one’s orientation because it never really goes away, I believe those studies. If you have evidence that those studies have been conducted with errors, please come forward with that evidence. As for people who do not believe studies that have been conducted fairly, I wonder what their reasons are?

Is anyone being hurt by this?
Shouldn’t we treat all people humanely?
Shouldn’t things that happen in the bedroom remain private?

Shouldn’t everyone have equal rights under the law if you agree with those three things?

but those who do want the government tacitly encouraging homosexuality are not attempting to impose their moral position on others

Wait…who said they wanted this?

I’m still wondering why a homosexual orientation would be immoral. You’d like us to accept this view, but you don’t have any reasons for it.

I must have said it half a dozen times just now that I don’t claim the orientation is immoral. the action is.

I cannot have a conversation with you if you don’t read what I write. You did this in 92 as well (perhaps other times before too) when you attributed to me something I never said. I pointed this out to you in 93 which you conveniently ignored.

If you still don’t believe that it is not a choice, my advice would be to look in any recently published psychology or human sexuality textbook.

Unfortunately for you it is far from generally accepted. Instead, much (though not all) of the gay community wants to believe this so they’ll accept it as fact long before science has come close to proving it as such.

You can misuse science the same way those who want to believe the world is 6,000 years old do and just find the bits that support you and ignore its weaknesses or the studies to the contrary, but it is a misuse of science.