When she gets a comment like this:
I was in Caracas at a party–a loud mouth usa feminist was stating she was a “strong usa woman hwo could handle any man”. Many women there were looking at her very strangely–& the men were at first laughing –then they started to make remarks about “colonialism from the usa” After about 30 minutes of hearing her insolence–I approached her & ask her to please be quiet–she looked at me & said “I am a feminist–no man tells me what to do or say” this was too much for me to take—I spun her around & smacked her ass with all my strength–very hard–to show I was not joking–she then stopped talking–tears started in her eyes–& she ran off–in shame & hid in a bathroom
The point?? USA feminists shut up fast outside the usa–where they have no usa police to back up their rude mouths–wnat to see how usa feminists are regarded in Latin America>>>?? check out info on a usa feminist named Lori Berenson–she is similar to the usa feminist at this party–Berenson went to Peru to spread usa feminist colonialist propaganda—now she properly resides in prison in Peru—-cooking for her macho guards
I strongly suggest usa feminists remain in the usa–& stay out of Latin America–we don’t desire your colonialist propaganda–in Latin America–we have had enough of usa colonialism
That’s in our moderation queue right now.
I usually delete crappy, sexist comments like that, but my trigger finger is itching to publish this asshole’s email and IP address. That isn’t something I’ve ever done, because I don’t believe in putting peoples’ personal information out on the internet just because I disagree with them, no matter how vile their views.
But this isn’t simple disagreement. This is a guy physically assaulting a woman because he doesn’t like her feminist views — and by the way, some random American woman talking about women’s rights at a party is not usually what anti-colonialists are talking about when they discuss “colonialist feminism,” so if you’re going to throw that kind of terminology around, at least know what the fuck you’re saying. Anyway, the point isn’t the poster’s ignorance of terminology; it’s his admission that he physically harmed a woman because she expressed feminist thought. It’s the choice to come to a feminist blog, and to tell our readers that he (and other men like him) will do physical harm to us for standing up for ourselves. It’s his emphasis on the fact that he did harm to her in public, in the presence of other men, with their tacit consent. Its his attempt to intimidate and threaten us in a space that should be safe for women.
I cannot bring myself to just delete his comment. I’m too angry and I’m too upset, and while I don’t want to be that person who publishes personal info, this crosses a huge fucking line for me. I am not comfortable reading an admission of violence and then simply deleting it and moving on.
So what do we do? Turn the other cheek, or publicly shame him just as he did to her? The better part of me is saying that I should just walk away, but I can’t do that just yet.
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Well, the thing about the internet is that horrible people feel free to say horrible things on it. I don’t think there’s much we can do.
I think you’re right not to publish his IP address, even if he does deserve it.
I’d lean towards not publishing it. I seriously doubt the person would feel shamed, and it is best to avoid lowering your standards. You’ve published his comment, so it has been airs in all its smelly glory, which I think is the important part.
I’d suggest writing him a personal e-mail back giving him two choices
1) have his comment disappear quietly, with no fuss.
2) if he’s man enough, he can say so, and you’ll publish his comment complete with his e-mail and IP address.
Let him choose.
I do getcha on wanting to smack this jerk right back, but would it put you in a similar category as the douchebags who felt justified in publishing your name and address and other personal information because you’d challenged their worldview by breathing? (last year, I think? on some law forum? I’m sorry I can’t remember the exact details.)
Not that I don’t think this aggressive rotbag didn’t come to the blog and write an incendiary comment hoping to provoke you into some kind of response (probably also hoping to derail the thread) …. I just think you’re opening yourself up to criticism by publishing an email address when it says right in this comment box that email addresses will not be published. (Maybe you didn’t post the whole comment and there’s a part of it which says, “Go ahead and publish my details!” … in which case, go for it.)
I’m actually more interested in the question you pose about why, indeed, someone would feel compelled to head on over to a feminist blog and boast about how he humiliates women. What’s the motivating factor there?
I agree with Cat. That or just not respond.
I think the only time it is acceptable to publish personal information in response to such an admission is when it fits in with the idea of Hollaback.
If you can get his name (first only?) and picture of him from his IP (but not his address, phone #, etc.) then I think publishing that would be more than reasonable bc the point would not be revenge, it would be keeping people informed about dangerous people.
But you can’t get that from his IP….so no hollaback this time. :(
The best you can do is what you have done, which is remind us all that creeps like this exist.
I would lean towards publication. Not because I don’t respect privacy, but because someone who batters others for mere speech and brags arrogantly of doing so should expect his mere speech to lead to a battery severe public criticism online and in his email box. Force is obviously what he respects; we know this because he said so.
I call bullshit – this letter’s a fake. It’s all a little too convenient – the Very Strong Woman put in her place, humiliated in front of everyone – for a dork who just wants to tear a feminist down, teach us a lesson, get everyone riled up with childish tales, etc.
I’d hit delete and move on.
I’m getting the same reading as anony at #7. Only I’d add that he was probably typing that little fantasy out with one hand.
I agree with Cat as well. I think his story is complete bullshit because hailing from Latin America (Brasil) if any man did that to me, he would leave with his entrails in his hands (but that is besides the point). he obviously has evolved from the shallow end of the gene pool and this is his pathetic attempt for attention.
Hope this doesn’t sound flippant but we can’t control what people do or say, we can only control how we react to what people say or do. Do whatever it is that will allow you to have peace.
In my opinion, he’s talking out his ass. I doubt this guy have ever done such a thing, probably has never been anywhere near a party with a woman like he describes. He’s making it up to make himself feel better, and by writing his crap here trying to really make himself feel better.
He reminds me of a guy I unfortunately have to deal with occasionally. He’ll be crossing the street, someone might look in his direction oddly, and the next week he has a story about some guy in the street mouthing off and him beating this person up to an applauding crowd of onlookers. Of course none of that happened, but telling the story makes him feel like some macho man.
Personally, I feel sad for this guy. He’s obviously got issues. He feels like he is somehow not living up to some stereotype of a “manly man” who “controls his woman” so has to invent some tale about a loud mouth woman that he smacks up real good to stroke his own ego.
Part lying jerk, part example of how patriarchy hurts men too. He doesn’t have a country to bomb to “prove his man-ness” so he fabricates stories like this one. Sad.
Posting this guy’s dox is not the same as when Jill had hers posted. Jill was deliberately targeted by people who went out of their way to get her information in order to intimidate her. This guy decided to live out a childish fantasy in the form of an aggressive post from his parent’s basement. Moreover, he sought out this blog and decided to provide information. I’d say toss him an e-mail to verify that the address is actually his then give him the opportunity to hear from all the good people here at Feministe.
Or, you know, sign him up for a few dozen feminist newsletters.
Jill, at this point all we know is that it is some fuckwit is aggressively making these comments, he could just as easily be from the states as he could be from Latin America. I would be concerned if you published his info that it would encourage a conversation about how anti-feminism is rampant in a certain “culture”. I would say take the high road on this one and use it as a platform to invite women to share about experiences of anti-feminism in their own culture and how they have dealt with it.
How convenient that the events at the party unfolded as they would if they were being tailored to troll feminist bloggers. The stuff about colonialism is his application of the popular tactic of dressing (more conventional) anti-feminism in progressive rhetoric.
My first thought when I saw this is that it’s BS. It’s just some dude trying to piss you (and the rest of us) off. I would say it’s best to just move on and comfort ourselves by knowing that he will probably never get laid again :p
Don’t you think it’s possible that this whole story may just be so much crap? To me the whole thing falls out just a little (okay, a lot) too neatly. Do American female expats in Caracas usually loudly proclaim, no matter how their political views might be, and no matter how drunk they may have gotten, that they are “strong USA feminists who can handle any man”? Honestly, does that sound probable to you? Does that sound like American English? For that matter, does it sound like human language of any kind?
Are American women who go to parties in parties in Caracas usually intent in instructing their fellow party-goers about what perfervid feminists they are? And are they likely to carry on about their dedication to their cause for half an hour at a stretch? Drunken men may sometimes act this way, but I’ve never seen a drunken woman who did. The tendency of the woman who’s really smashed is generally to pass out, not to make this type of a spectacle of herself.
But, okay, let’s give this guy every benefit of the doubt. Let’s suppose that this woman has acted exactly as he claims she did and that not a living soul, other than himself, has within the last half hour approached her and asked her to chill. (I know, I know. Stifle your disbelief.) So now our hero steps up to the plate, asks the female villain of his tale to please cool it a bit, and what’s her reply? “I am a feminist—no man tells me what to do or say?” Now doesn’t that kind of sound like dialogue from a bad biker movie circa about 1971? And isn’t it conceivable that that (or some similar source) is originally where it came from?
So, finally, our hero delivers to his female antagonist the climactic slap on the ass. And it works, how it works! Just like magic (which is one of the things that clues me in to the fabulistic nature of this whole tale) the feminist villainess is instantaneously deprived of speech and grows dewy about the eyes, at which point she makes tracks for the bathroom, not to throw up (which would at least have been plausible) but presumably to blub.
(At this rate our hero’s going to be lucky to escape being stalked by an erstwhile strong usa feministe who’s decided she’s in love with the doughty Latin stallion who’s proven definitively that he’s the only man who’ll handle her in the way she secretly knows that she deserves. I say this because that seems to be the direction in which this particular fantasy is tending…though I confess I can’t be 100% sure about that.)
If you want to publish this idiot’s email and IP address, go right ahead; it’s okay with me. But if I were you I’d add some kind of rider along the following lines: “Here for your perusal are the email & IP addresses of Mr. X, who likes to make up goofy stories, apparently driven by the supposition that women are too stupid to see through them. He’s kind of a doofus, don’t you agree?”
(All this, of course, is JMO, and I’m altogether willing to be proven wrong.)
“I am a feminist-no man tells me what to say”? Fake. Fakey fake fake. The dude clearly hasn’t actually spoken to a feminist—or an actual living female. It’s pretty obviously fantasy. Like real tough guys hang around comment threads on blogs! And besides, a room full of Latinos would not just stand around and watch that. Feminism or not, you don’t treat a woman like that. They’d beat the snot out of him. Our anonymous gringo watches too much TV.
I suggest ignoring stuff like that, or possibly editing it to something more suitable. Or signing him up for some interesting mailing lists and personals. He obviously wants to get you riled up. Laugh at him. Nothing makes a misogynist’s raisin-like testicles retract more than the laughter of women.
Yeah, I’m calling bullshit too.
I’m all for publishing the comment, because I think the public shaming approach and “haha, omg what an idiot!” response is more effective than turning the other cheek and ignoring him. I have a low tolerance for putting up with shit without screaming back, though.
As for publishing the name and IP address, I think IP address is unnecessary and it would be hypocritical. The name, though, is fair game. By filling out the comment form with the expectation that his userhandle and comment would appear, he’s agreeing to publicly associate his username (and if he chooses to use his real name, that’s his choice) with his craptastic opinions. Just let the comment pass through to wherever it appeared and then let him be torn apart. It’d serve him right.
Well, Jill… I have a huge crush on Margaret Cho. In one of her stand-up routines, she talked about her philosophy of dealing with these kinds of people (in this context, she’s speaking of racist/sexist behavior): “I don’t want to be the bigger person. I do want to stoop to their level.” I love that, and I say: Why not publish his email address?
The only argument that I could see against it is not the “be the bigger person” one. It’s just… Well, I wouldn’t publish it if you think it could lead to a huge internet war that unnecessarily depletes your time and energy. That’s all.
And finally, I think this idiot provides a good lead-in to a discussion about anti-colonialism and feminism and anti-colonial/post-colonial feminism. Thank you for pointing out that this person is not articulating the post-colonial feminist critique. I think it’s very important to stress this point. Despite the misappropriation of that critique by this guy, I still think it’s an important critique: Western feminism all to often universalizes the experiences of white, wealthy, Western women as if they are the experiences of all women; this tends to trivialize the experiences and agency of women with divergent life experiences. When it doesn’t do that, it too frequently paints non-Western women as passive, monolithic victims–again, without agency. Neither approach sufficiently problematizes Western/non-Western power dynamics. We should be self-reflexive and engaged with the post-colonial critique of some Western feminism. The best book I know on this topic is Chandra Talpade Mohanty’s Feminism without Borders: Decolonizing Theory, Practicing Solidarity.
I think you have, just with this response just now, done the right thing. You addressed his absurd bigoted views in a real way,- even though he himself doesn’t deserve to be addressed- and you still were the bigger person by not publishing his IP.
At the end of the day, it burns me up that schmucks like this and his ilk are about. They are a blight on the world and yet somehow their presence is the price we pay for the freedoms and virtues of the internet.
I have only ben an occasional reader of this blog, but I must say, you just got bumped up to GoogelReader Subscription status.
:shrug:
I’d publish his name and IP, because it’s clear to me that he disrespects women enough to consider physical assault an appropriate response to her declaration of political ideals. If he wants to be a threat, there’s no reason he should be able to do so anonymously.
For that matter, does it sound like human language of any kind?
Dunno. Does troll count as a human language?
Uh-huh. And I’ll bet everyone cheered, and the mayor gave him the key to the city, and then he got to ride up front with the train engineer, and his mom cried tears of joy, and someone’s totally working on a script for a movie about this brave soul.
The English title will be “This Asshole Is Congenitally Incapable of Intellectual Argumentation, So He Has to Resort to Violence, Even in His Own Pathetic Fantasies.”
Ha. And this is why I love blogging here :-)
You all have made me feel a lot better. Thank you.
You know, this is kind of a good point. “Dear Ms….”
I agree with the other posters- this is a wank fantasy. It’s describing little stereotypes, not people. Delete and ignore.
Or, I don’t know, invite the blog readership to write little fantasies about HIM and our collective boot up HIS ass. And him crying and whining for his mommy. (which is, I wager, probably kinda what he does anyway.)
I’m down with signing his email up for several feminist newsletters. Or the forthcoming daily Feministe newsmail:
“Thank you for signing up for Feministe! We will send you daily letters on castrating pesky men, eating tasty babies, and eviscerating your religion of choice!”
Adding my voice to the chorus calling shenanigans on this missive. It’s a fakearoonie wank fantasy straight out of “Hustler” or something similar. Bet the real author is some pasty, pustulant basement-dweller.
Just say “oh puh-LEEZE” to yourself and hit delete.
I’m just so glad you keep stupid comments like that in moderation. You’re right Jill – this should be a safe, supportive space. It must be mentally exhausting sorting through all the BS comments. If posting particularly ridiculous comments is cathartic then more power to you! It feels good to be able to respond – like he’s not actually getting away with saying whatever he wants because we can respond. Canadian feminists support “USA feminists”!
Mostly, I want to add my voice to the thanks, for reading through the drivel so we can have such a great safe space – O/T, I know, but it means a lot.
I think putting up the comment anonymously for pointing and laughing was the right response – that said, since he did post a comment, and if you wanted, you’d be totally in the right to post the email.
Simplemente mandarlo al carajo. No vale la pena agonizarse por una idiota. Como much@s ya han dicho, yo no creo su cuentecito. Ni su mama se lo cree!
Translation: Simply tell him to go to hell/tell him to go f**k himself. It’s not worth the agony over a dumbf**k (damn, there should really be a Spanish version for this). Like many have already said, I don’t believe his little story. Not even his own mother believes his bullshit.
That’s right, Latina feminists are on this blog! Y que?! (And what?!)
“Dear Ms….”
More like, “Dear Forum…I never really believed the letters I read in your magazine, until this happened to me…and it’s true, I swear! I was at this party…”
Fail. No one from the USA would call themselves anything other than ‘American.’ It’s a small part of our exasperatingcharming egocentrism.
I agree with Bruce at number 7.
Anonymity in blogs is meant to protect people who engage in speech. whether this is real or imagined…anonymity is not meant to protect people who engage in violence.
Those are crucial distinctions.
If you are concerned for your own safety, which is something to consider, then don’t. But this is not the kind of comment that internet anonymity is meant for. He wants to confess to his priest or his doctor…they have an obligation to him personally. You don’t.
I’m not so sure hypocritical is the right description of what publishing his IP would be. Yes, he came to this site and made a post. He provided his name (or handle, or whatever) and should be responsible for whatever garbage he spouts out. Now, I could see the argument that posting his IP and e-mail address would be a bit harsh (maybe), but hypocritical?
Again, he CHOSE to come here and try to start a fight. If he was foolish enough to be a troll and not cover his tracks then he doesn’t get any guarantee of anonymity. This site isn’t a public space, no one here really has any expectation of privacy. The only rules are the ones Jill (and others with admin powers) decide to abide by.
Lets think about this in another way. If someone showed up to a bar and said the same thing this guy posted, would Jill be hypocritical for reporting more than just the name the guy was called? Would it be out of line for her to give a general physical description? To use his real name if she knew he was using an alias? To tell people his phone number if he voluntarily provided it? Sure it might be mean, but I can’t really see the hypocrisy, it isn’t like she tracked down private information here.
The letter struck me as utter bullshit from the beginning, too. Also, if she was anything like he was describing, she would have completely kicked his ass if he tried to touch her. I roll my eyes at him.
This is my first post on this blog. I got here via Correntewire.
My first inclination would be to post all information he gave you.
Nothing on the internet is secret without effort, which is much like most discourse anyway.
If a person isn’t willing to spend the time or effort to insist that what they say is in confidence than they shouldn’t expect confidence.
This particular missive is a perfect example. If he had said these things to a complete stranger in a bar would he really expect his statement to be anonymous?
We all know how to be anonymous, or allow our statements or ideas to be in confidence. E-mail, without effort easily attained, is not one of those areas. If I want to tell someone a secret, I know how to do it. A reply to a blog is not the way I would do it.
Post his information far and wide. He threatened you and he threatened that woman. His information should be shared. He doesn’t think it’s important, otherwise he wouldn’t have spouted off. That’s the problem, of course. He doesn’t think women are important.
Let fly with his information.
Not parsing this; there’s a lot we can do other than throw up our hands and sigh about the horrible, horrible people about whom we can’t do a damn thing, such as posting their full name WHICH THEY ATTACHED TO THE COMMENT THEY VOLUNTARILY SUBMITTED. Not quite the same as posting the guy’s home address.
Jill, this is ripe for fisking. “I never believed it could happen to me! There I was at a party in Caracas and this pouty little blond with 36-21-34 measurements said….”
“strong USA feminists who can handle any man”? Honestly, does that sound probable to you? Does that sound like American English? For that matter, does it sound like human language of any kind?
Sounds like a line from a porn movie.
While I also lean towards the “shenanigans” end of the spectrum, on the other hand, the story is being told with a very specific motivation: “Dear Women, stop having opinions and challenging my right to be an ass, or you will be hurt and publicly humiliated”. Publishing the name he provided in the comment is certainly not crossing any ethical line. IP? Maybe not make it public, but certainly keep it handy so that if he continues this threatened-masculinity idiocy correct steps can be taken with his ISP.
Wow. You are, quite possibly, a much better person than me. When I got a racist idiot troll commenter on this post, I… um… went a teensy bit further than publishing her IP address.
Which, at the time, I felt perfectly justified in doing, but, with the perspective of only a few weeks, I realize I might have found a more constructive meta-target for my outrage.
This is why I shouldn’t blog during severe mood swings.
Or when I’m sleep deprived. Like I am, um, right now.
*backs away slowly*
Jill, I have to say that made me really angry, because it conflates several issues for me. It’s not just the macho behaviour bulshit, though that is a large part of it.
No, what annoys me, as a Latin American-in-exile, as a Latin American Feminist activist, as a person, is how he co-opts anti-colonial discourse. He co-opts a campaign against oppression, and uses it to physically abuse and oppress someone. All just so he can make a point about how fucking macho he is, and how right he is to be a sexist dick. I’d be ready to call ‘fake’ like many others, but I do know people like that do exist, and they do act like that. His comment may sound fake due to poor English, simply put.
The whole thing really pisses me off. U.S. colonialism in Latin America is an important series of issues. It’s something that has affected the continent for decades, to the detriment of millions and the death of thousands. It’s NOT there for some sexist asshole to show how fucking tough he is.
I don’t want to vote really. I just want to make it crystal clear that this person does not reflect anti-imperialism thought in Latin America. Not in the slightest.
I’d play it safe and sign him up for a whole load of gay porn. Either he’ll enjoy it because he hates women so much, or you’ll have retaliated without having to shame someone who may not be shame-able. It’s win-win, unless you have a moral prescription against denigrating gay porn that way, in which case I will understand. Not even porn deserves this kind of douchebag, after all.
As a side-note- I thought anti-feminists were people who believed in “traditional values” and want us to protect women from the big wide world out there by being oh-so-chivalrous? Isn’t this guy just a bridge-variety chauvinist troll?
I’d publish his info just because he’s counting on you not publishing it. There’s no right to anonymous harassment, and there’s really no right to expect the victim to cover for you. I’m sick to death of guys like this, whether the letter is real or not (though I vote not). They aren’t going to stop this shit until they’re afraid, and I’m all for giving them a reason to fear.
I’m inclined to join the ranks of all the others here that are calling bullshit. The way he describes the “situation” just seems a little too convenient. He has the feminist practically screaming into a bullhorn. If a situation like this actually happened she was probaby just carrying on a conversation with someone and she had the audacity to be in earshot. So I’m caught between calling bullshit or grossly spinning the facts of the story
I”d bet he just looked up feminist blogs on google because he wanted to stir up something.
If you must do something, you could always post his e-mail in a Craigslist ad saying something like 4′11″, 110-pound Venezuelan submissive seeks strong usa woman to punish me like the naughty boy I am. I mean, I’m just planting seeds here.
Otherwise, I’m with Mythago — this has “Wannabe Penthouse Forum” written all over it. And with that in mind, my advice would be to just trash the e-mail and move on, lest he involve you any further into his misogynist wank fantasies.
I think this guy is lying, too. There is something about it that seems a little too cinematic. I agree with everyone who says the language seems stilted. It reminds me of some of the dialogue written by creative writing undergraduates. I think he sent this comment as a sort of fantasy. It’s misogynist and creepy, but I don’t think a woman was really hit in a bar.
My advice is not to publish his email. It’s probably fake anyway, or an account he never uses. IP address… maybe his, but it may not even be his computer. So just move on. It was a nasty prank.
This is a great blog.
T
Reading that it does seem a little bogus to me.
OT: Quick question a little related to it: A few years back I got into a very heated discussion with a woman, the topic was shared parenting. Anyway the argument got very heated as it sometimes tends to do but I spoke calmly and slowly (pretty much the only way I’m capable of speaking due to a speech impediment) and this young physically fit woman rose from her seat and punched me in the head. I don’t know why she did this though I believe it was due to the emotion of the argument but I also believe it was because she didnt fear any repurcussions of such an act. I won’t say what happened next but have any of you ever, ever struck a man in any way? It does not matter if you hurt him, just the act itself. What do you believe is the appropriate response from the male in this situation (I know there can be/are a lot of variables). Its just a trend I’ve seen quite a bit of the last decade and I’m not quite sure how to handle it when it happens to me or a friend. Thanks.
I was also incredibly annoyed by his lackluster attempts to latch onto anti-colonial discourse — as if somehow anti-colonialism just goes naturally hand in hand with assaulting a woman to “put her in her place.” And I’m glad you posted to point that out, R.E. Silvera. This kind of drivel just makes it harder to actually talk about the intersection of colonialism and feminism — and there is plenty, plenty that could be said about that, and most of it is far more intelligent and nuanced than “don’t you come down here with your ideas about how men can’t order women around, because I’ll slap you on your ass to prove I can!” I mean, come on, he’s writing himself into a caricature of machismo… and how much does that really have to do with struggles against imperalism and colonialism? The fact that he just randomly grabs for Lori Berenson as an example of a feminist (I guess feminism is responsible for all struggles between radical left-wing groups and military-powered regimes in Latin America, huh) just shows that he’s not fishing with bait, he’s simply fishing with his dick. Sorry, that’s not really how you prove how big it is–you’re more likely to get it deservingly bitten off by a piranha.
As for publishing his contact information — I’ll just say without revealing anything too particular that he comes from a very generic ISP. His e-mail address or IP, as identifying information, wouldn’t say much of anything about who he is or hold him accountable in any way. And that is more or less typical of stupid trolls who make up ludicrous stories… my finger can’t find the delete button fast enough for this kind of thing, honestly. But it’s fun to point out the dumbness, I guess!
I totally agree with Siduri – seriously, do you know any feminists that would say that to someone? I think he has a very skewed image of what feminists do/say and his comment is more a fantasy (for himself) than anything else.
However, rather than posting his info here, i am all for signing him up for lots of feminist newsletters for two reasons 1. so that he can learn somethins and 2. to annoy him :)
Like everyone else said, it screamed “fake” to me as soon as he started the quote. That phrase “strong USA woman” sounds like something I get in OKCupid spam from people who don’t actually speak English that well, and “who could handle any man” is the sort of thing only anti-feminists think feminists brag (or even care) about.
I’d even bet that the IP address resolves to within the U.S.. and not Latin America. (And if it does, I think it’s perfectly legit to point that out without reevaling other identifying information.)
reevaling
“revealing,” obviously.
Also, I think this guy might be one of those who tries to take advantage of the tenet that we as feminists should believe people’s personal stories rather than discount them. (I wondered a while back about what to do about such cases – I’m still not really sure.)
jamesPi, other than trolling, why did you feel the need to ask readers here if anyone has “ever struck a man in any way”? As for the woman you say hit you, you react in the same way anyone reacts to an attack: you defend yourself, and you summon the authorities.
“What do you believe is the appropriate response from the male in this situation (I know there can be/are a lot of variables).”
Uh, report it to the appropriate authorities as an assault? Face-punching someone really isn’t a valid debate tactic.
If you don’t publish his info they get the message that you should fear their threats because you’re a feminist blogger, but they should never live in fear of exposure.
FTS! Publish his address and who cares whether the story is “true” or not!
Publish. We should know who he is if he’s going to assault us. He’s openly threatened to do just that. I don’t know how many readers you have in Caracas, but they should know who this guy is.
Um, this reads like something from Penthouse Letters. I’m sure that right after he smacked that USA feminist on her ass, he went home and his wife and her best friend were there, and Penthouse,you just won’t believe when he tells you what they were doing!
Go ahead and publish. He went a long way to stink up someone else’s space, it’s only fair to return the favor.
Um. I say fuck him. He assaulted a women and bragged about it. The ass deserves all of the angry email he gets.
This guy’s some pimply teenager who’s been reading Ayn Rand. “Yeah, I gave her the Howard Roark treatment, and you know what, the bitch liked it. Yeah, she came back for more that night in my motel room!”
It is to laugh.
“An admission of violence”? Well, here’s what I think about that. I used to work with this dude who was all the time talking about his years in the U.S. Army in Vietnam. He wasn’t just your ordinary soldier, either. He was an LRRP, one of the famous toughest-of-the-tough Rangers, who went out in small squads to infiltrate across the DMZ into North Vietnam, where they lived off the land far, far behind enemy lines, and did sabotage, sniping, and reconnaisance. The tales he told, my, my!
A while later I happened to be in the company’s accounting office, and on the accountant’s desk, there was his personnel file, open, complete with a Xerox of his driver’s license. I suppose I shouldn’t have looked, as it was none of my business really, but I did, and according to the Department of Motor Vehicles, he was fourteen years old in 1975 when Saigon fell to the NVA.
Sorry, that whole scenario was made up. Just ignore it.
I agree with the idea to let him choose.
Even if it was made up, it’s an awful attitude to have, and if he so chooses, he should have to deal with people’s wrath when they contact him.
Doug said:
Before that, Ari said:
Let’s try a way of talking about this guy without using either (a) the appearance of being gay or (b) the desire to be dominated by a woman as SHAME tactics. Seriously, what the FUCK?
I don’t have anything related to your decision to add that’s new (besides “don’t publish”–I agree most strongly with the argument, “It won’t shame him anyway!”).
All I wanted to say was that interestingly, there is one thing that makes me wonder if at least part of the story–the conversation she was having with other people–is real.
People in this conversation connected a woman’s act of declaring her nationality to have a causal effect of giving her positive character traits as colonialism. (I’m a strong USA woman, and I can…) They connected her implication that others without her nationality wouldn’t have her positive character traits as colonialism. And they connected her refusing to drop her insistence on doing so for 30 freaking minutes as colonialism.
These are all subtle cues of a person’s colonialism. A partygoer has to think with very sophisticated reasoning processes to see colonialism in her actions.
This guy is SO not sophisticated enough of a reasoner to have made THAT part of the story up. He could NOT have made up partygoers using that word in response to what she was doing on her own.
So I do think it’s interesting to ponder where that mix of sophisticated reasoning and unsophisticated reasoning was. (Did he decide to jump in in his unsophisticated way and actually hit a woman for being 2 things–1) “not the kind of woman he likes to imagine exists” and 2) according to other people in the room, “colonialist”? Or did he just see this exchange and fantasize later? Did he hear about the exchange and fantasize later?) I swear he didn’t make up the conversation that kicked this off.
(Also, this whole scenario is why I love and continue to work for IMPACT. In our classes, we learn that even if we do genuinely wrong someone emotionally and hurt their feelings, they may curse at us, stomp off, etc…but not physically assault us. Which is a really empowering, neat thing to learn when you’re concurrently learning how to survive a physical assault. I continue to work with the program so that everyone will have the opportunity to feel that she is physically strong enough to confront a man like this right at the moment of attack. (And no, I don’t mean punch him–I mean confront him. The knowledge that you have over 100 pounds of physical strength is not for punching him in return–it’s for backup in case the shit hits the fan and he swings a punch at YOU while you’re confronting him over the butt-hitting.)
I think it’s fake because I’ve spent a fair amount of time in Latin America and found the men generally to be extremely sweet and gentle, even teens. I’m not saying that there are not plenty of abusive men in Latin America – that’s a problem all over the world – but there are a lot of taboos against treating unrelated women disrespectfully in social situations. If a woman actually did what the poster said, I think she’d just find herself alone in the middle of the room – not getting hit. If anything, I’d be less suprised if something like this happened in a local bar right here in the mid-atlantic and SHOCKED if it happened at a private party in Latin America. It would be an extreme insult to a host to actually hit a partygoer, especially a woman, no matter what she said, and even a very sexist man would be unlikely to go there. If he did, I would think he got thrown out. Finally, it is BS to say the cops in Latin America aren’t protective of Americans, especially in the tourist areas. When something bad happens to an American and it makes the news, there go the potential tourist dollars, and a lot of cops’ families work in hotels, restaurants and the like. I’m not saying that I would like to be caught doing a minor crime or something in Rio, or that the cops would find my stolen camera during their lunch hour, but I don’t have LESS confidence in them than I do in the U.S. police when it comes to reporting that someone actually hit me. Involvement of embassies normally means a lot of paperwork and calling their bosses during sietsta. Not cool. Doubt the police would award this guy for saddling them with a bid headache, and he would know that.
It’s sticky, but I vote for publishing, or signing up for feminist email lists.
IMHO, it doesn’t really matter if the story was fake, he came to a feminist blog, ostensibly a safe space for women on the internet, and boasted about his propensity to smack women who don’t listen to him around.
Now I realize that if we published every troll comment complete with IP/email, that would probably crash the site, but there is something insidious about this one (having not seen every comment, I lack a basis for comparison, all I know is that it triggered my creepy alarms. I also think the fact that you were compelled to post it, Jill, out of all the troll comments in your mod que, speaks to it’s insidiousness I’m sure; trust your gut).
So yeah, the guy is full of nasty vitriolic hate, and he probably came here for a response, but he really should be held accountable for his actions as much as the anonymity of the internet allows. If he crossed a line for you, that’s a violation of your space and personhood just as much as nasty catcalls on the street ever were. I say let him have it.
from what little contact i’ve had with venezuelans, my view is that…
(1) if it were a real party full of any number of real venezuelan feminists or feminist-friendly people (even just 2), the women would have gathered around to stomp his ass;
(2) if it were a real party full of any number of real sexist venezuelan men, they would have stomped his ass out of chivalry (however misplaced or disagreeable that may be);
(3) if it were a real party of sexist venezuelan men who wouldn’t stand up for a woman in that situation, there probably wouldn’t be any women there, especially not american ones.
but, that is only based on my own limited personal contact with venezuelans.
if this little vignette had happened at a party in, oh, let’s say el salvador, the guy would probably be in the landfill somewhere by now.
however, i CAN picture this story being true in italy, i’m sad to say.
I vote for shame.
I think that you throw up his name and let us all laugh at how truly pathetic he is. (Because even if his story has some truth in it, I think it’s safe to say she’s in the bathroom because he’s a fucking sociopath.)
The part that disgusts me the most is that he omitting the description of his well-oiled biceps. Really, how am I going to mock him properly when he leaves out the relevant details?
Ok, first, his comments and behavior were offensive by any civilized society’s standards. However, exporting our cultural feminism is offensive to many other cultures. If feminism is going to come to other male dominated cultures it is going to come from within, it is not going to be imposed upon them by Americans. This is a continuation in another form of American Imperialism. Does that mean as a foreign policy matter we allow the policies of our friends (and foes) to not recognize the civil rights of women, of course not, but the situation that this man referenced was really a missed opportunity, instead of being loud and offensive the woman referenced could have engaged in a civil, but respectful conversation of basic civil rights afforded all people regardless of gender. The woman referenced certainly won no hearts or minds on that day.
He provided his name (or handle, or whatever) and should be responsible for whatever garbage he spouts out. Now, I could see the argument that posting his IP and e-mail address would be a bit harsh (maybe), but hypocritical?
It’s hypocritical in that Jill has been against publishing personal ID information (emails and IPs) in other cases (not thinking AutoAdmit here, but in some old threads where people dug up ID info for trolls or harassers–I think this was last year or the year before).
Posting his email and IP specifically so that people can sign him up for spam lists or send him rude emails is also unnecessary, IMO. He said some disgusting crap and was willing to attach his name to it; his name is fair game for publishing, then, but I do think it’s hypocritical to publish emails and IPs for people who’re assholes and not for anyone else. Also, I’m not making a value judgment on good/bad or moral/immoral here; I’m saying that a double standard is hypocritical. So whether or not it’s “harsh” isn’t so much relevant, IMO.
I would go with what Cat and Lauren suggested. Moreover, I don’t think you should feel the need to protect the poster’s anonymity as he was open about having no qualms about using physical violence and threats against those with which he has disagreements.
Not sure about the fakeness as I’ve heard many international students complain about feminism and human rights activists using similar arguments….except they are much more likely to use the term “cultural imperialist” to describe them and couch their arguments in terms of defending their society’s culture from being supplanted by Westernization.
Though I have some sympathies with their arguments due to the way progressive movements and Christian missionaries were used by Western imperialist powers to justify and further colonization of non-Western societies in the 19th century and the hypocritical arrogantly sanctimonious way the US and Western European governments sometimes uses human rights and feminist causes to justify their own social superiority (Which this blog has called out before.)….I am frustrated that the same arguments are used by homegrown tyrannical ruling elites to justify the oppression of their own people or discouraging the examination of unsavory aspects of their historical past.
Delete it. Forget it.
If you allow these types of posts to get to you, then you’re letting them have their intended effect.
Right, because feminism was a totally American invention, and there is no history or modern presence of feminist movements in Latin America. /snark.
Also, I don’t care what the woman was doing or if her comments could have been more “civil.” He claims to have fucking hit her. And your points are sounding a whole lot like justifications for that.
I call bullshit, too. And performance/ hate speech. Because dude imagines it that way, it becomes that way–for him.
I’d call for his email and IP addies. But then, I’m PMSing right now, which means I’d probably slap him back … where it hurts.
We aren’t talking about a double standard. A double standard would be for the Feministe admins to post the e-mails of people who disagreed with them but not with people who agreed with them. What we’re talking about is publishing the e-mail addresses of people who intentionally came to disrupt and play out a childish fantasy. That isn’t unfair, its petty vigilante justice in an essentially unregulated environment. It is also highly amusing.
See, you are making a value judgment. You’re arguing that not posting his e-mail and IP is the right thing to do because theres a general policy against doing so and because it would be “unnecessary.” The thrust of this argument seems to be to defend some asshole from being harassed or annoyed, to insulate him from the consequences of his actions. I’m arguing that the right policy would be to take this guy who decided to try to make sport of Jill and make sport of him.
@ Starfoxy in #33: I know PLENTY of people from the United States who would LOATHE being called “American”… then again, all those people are from Texas and are, of course, TEXAN above anything else.
But, that’s neither here nor there. ^_^
William, feel free to impute value judgments all you like. I’m not saying that it’s morally good or morally bad; I just don’t think it’s necessary to publish the email, if you want to punish the commentor for being a jerk. You disagree; fine. Furthermore, nowhere did I defend the asshole–please see my earlier comment about letting the comment through the mod queue and letting everyone tear him apart.
You’re arguing that not posting his e-mail and IP is the right thing to do because theres a general policy against doing so and because it would be “unnecessary.”
I’m saying it’s the consistent thing to do.
I suppose that would all depend on your goals. If your goal is to engage his speech in discussion and allow it to be criticized in a public forum, then I suppose you’re right. If your goal is to punish a troll, then you have to take the fun out of it for them. See, trolls like this guy make a comment and leave. If they respond at all to responses it is only to generate more outrage because that is what they want. They come looking for outrage, they want you to be offended, they want you to spend time responding and tearing them down. Places like feministe are particularly rich in those kinds of responses because you have a lot of people discussing things they care deeply about. Posting his username and responding to his comment is just playing his game.
You’re right, it is consistent. And predictable. And ineffective.
Hell, the more I think about it the more I’m figuring it should just be dropped quietly. The whole thing reeks of a channer looking for an easy mark.
If they respond at all to responses it is only to generate more outrage because that is what they want. They come looking for outrage, they want you to be offended, they want you to spend time responding and tearing them down. Places like feministe are particularly rich in those kinds of responses because you have a lot of people discussing things they care deeply about. Posting his username and responding to his comment is just playing his game.
How does ignoring him and dropping it quietly mesh with your suggestion upthread to verify the email, then publish it so everyone can send him responses?
Also, from your earlier response
Lets think about this in another way. If someone showed up to a bar and said the same thing this guy posted, would Jill be hypocritical for reporting more than just the name the guy was called? Would it be out of line for her to give a general physical description? To use his real name if she knew he was using an alias? To tell people his phone number if he voluntarily provided it? Sure it might be mean, but I can’t really see the hypocrisy, it isn’t like she tracked down private information here.
No, I don’t think Jill would be hypocritical there. To me, it’s about how to treat information that’s provided, if that makes sense. In the comment box, it says e-mail won’t be published, so I think it’s fair to assume that one’s email won’t be published, but one’s name and website will, if one makes a comment. If an asshole in the bar says the same thing and also gives out his phone number, he does so with no expectation of privacy and is effectively saying, “I’m publicly associating my name, face, phone number, and general appearance with my asshole misogyny.”
What’s a channer?
If your goal is to engage his speech in discussion and allow it to be criticized in a public forum, then I suppose you’re right. If your goal is to punish a troll, then you have to take the fun out of it for them.
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of “the public shaming approach and “haha, omg what an idiot!” ” rather than a reasoned, point-by-point takedown of his speech.
I think the story is fake. It almost sounds like an urban legend/wet dream for sexist Latin macho men who hate US colonialism.
I’m with bekabot at #15 and bmc90 at #66. This story does not pass the smell test. I mean, come on. “usa woman?” No US Citizen refers to herself that way.
Having said that, I say, screw the high road. Publish his name, at least. I have every confidence this man will get the mockery he deserves.
Thats kind of why the statement was prefaced with “the more I think about it.” See, upon further reading, discussion, and thought my opinion changed.
I can see your point, I guess I just disagree. Your point seems to be that Feministe has a responsibility to follow through with protecting this guy’s information because they said they would. Mine is that its a private space and rules like that are fluid. I’m guessing if he a made a criminal threat you’d be fine with turning his info over to the proper authorities. I suppose our definition of what merits an exception is just different.
Someone who frequents one of the many *chan imageboards. Generally a 16 year old with a bad attitude who amuses themselves by trolling and spouting racist/sexist/homophobic crap. Theres been a recent trend by a lot of them to go back to past victims and stage increasingly unpleasant incidents because they feel they’re getting too much good press as a result of their attacks against the Church of Scientology. Feministe (and a few other feminist boards) have been targeted by them in the past. Rereading the actual comment in question gave me the impression that it might have been one of them, which would make any response other than deletion counterproductive.
This doesn’t seem like a good analogy to me. The criminal threat example has both a higher standard for disclosing the poster’s identity/email/IP (a crime may be imminent v. making a stupid post) and a narrower group of people who are made aware of the poster’s identity (only the authorities v. anyone who reads the blog). Moreover, the purpose in reporting a criminal threat is to protect the potential victim of the crime (not just to allow people who disagree with the poster to do what they will with the poster’s info).
It takes quite a leap to get from that example to supporting the release to the entire board the poster’s email/IP for making a post that doesn’t threaten anyone, regardless of how ignorant and inflammatory it may be.
But it does matter if the email is fake. At best, you’re loading innocent servers with bounces; at worst, you’re spamming a bystander.
Publish the information. I think you relinquish your right to me keeping information you gave me private when you threaten me physically, which is the implication of his comment.
If it is fake–which I suspect–you should definitely publish. Because someone who thinks that is funny to write would probably think that’s funny to do.
Think of yourself like a therapist. You can’t reveal anything to anyone unless you have reason to believe the patient will hurt someone. Well, him saying that, on the internet, to a major blog, is a threat.
So made up! And so dumb! Post that IP and email. C’mon.
I know I’m really late to this thread, but I vote with all the other posters who believe this letter is a fake. I’ve had a poster in another forum tell me this story almost word-for-word: that he’s from South America, and women there know how to respect their men, and the only thing keeping American feminists safe from assault by their outraged betters is the American justice system. It’s an attempt to silence and obliquely threaten, but the story is just fake, fake, fake.
Welcome to the Internet. YHBT. Golf clap.
(For the lingo-challenged: YHBT = You Have Been Trolled)
It’s people like you that let the terrorists win. Feeding trolls only encourages more trolls. Don’t feed the trolls. If you read something on the Internet, and it makes you say, “I can’t BELIEVE that!”… LISTEN TO YOURSELF.
I’m actually curious about the distinction between colonialist feminism and what this guy was talking about. I don’t think I’ve studied colonial feminism.
That being said, many people say asshole things when they think it’s anonymous. Most websites post a warning that states the operator of the same reserves the right to publish entire emails including email addresses. If there has been a warning, I say it’s fair game to post the guy’s email address. However, I note on your site you assure the poster that their email will not be published.
I think that regardless of what a douche this guy is (seriously, what a fantastic powerful man, using violence when words failed him), the correct thing to do is not publish his email. You said it wouldn’t be published, so you should stick to your word. And I”m not up on my internet privacy laws, but I know if companies violate their internet privacy policies, they wind up in hot water. I don’t think it’s worth it for you to find out if that applies to bloggers.
Not everywhere is America and unfortunately Americans in total have a very bad and oft times deserved reputation for being loud mouthed and outspoken when they should keep their traps shut. Culturally speaking if this woman mouthed off about womens rights in a Sharia ruled Islamic country she wouldn’t be slapped on the butt she’d be raped or dead. Like or not ladies many cultures view feminism as it exists in the United States (England, Australia, Nordic countries, etc.) as a bitter poison that is a very real threat to their way of life. When they see “feminism” portrayed on television all they see is women ruling men and being just as arbitrary, capricious, savage, cruel, and ruthless as the worst examples of men in history. I used to work several people from Morocco (VERY intelligent, hard working, and I’ll take issue with anyone that says otherwise BTW). When we spoke about womens rights his point was simple… “Exactly what benefits do you offer us? Our wives will divorce us and steal everything we’ve ever owned. Then they’ll take our children away and force us to pay to see them. And if we object or try to say no to any of it we’re thrown in jail. When we try to work, we can’t because some woman somewhere might want the job first.” Whether you like it or not THAT is how feminism is seen. It isn’t “equal rights” and many people abroad know it. It is the complete substitution of perceived male dominance with police enforced female dominance. An artificial system propped up only by the power of jack booted thuggery and artificial invented “crimes” which in the natural world sans stifling blankets of laws and threats of violence from on high would fall apart in 15 minutes. How much “feminism” was on display in say New Orleans after Katrina? No sane people would volunteer for such if it was offered these days as what it means, what it REALLY means is on display so openly here in the U.S.
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