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	<title>Comments on: Punishment</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/</link>
	<description>In defense of the sanctimonious women&#039;s studies set.</description>
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		<title>By: Appauled</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-174056</link>
		<dc:creator>Appauled</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 03:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-174056</guid>
		<description>Everyone&#039;s argument here is ridiculous!  None of you would be able to have this conversation if your mother wasn&#039;t &quot;ready&quot; to have a child and decided to have an abortion.  The thing that should be talked about more in conversations like this is the unborn child.  What&#039;s more important, post-partum depression or giving life a chance?  I&#039;m a staunch conservative and I never believed that a child is a punishment for having sex.  It&#039;s all about being responsible for the actions you take.  When you get drunk and get behind the wheel of a car there&#039;s a chance you could get in an accident and kill someone else.  Just because getting drunk can be fun at times doesn&#039;t make the end result any better.  Just like having sex is fun but it doesn&#039;t mean that having an abortion is ok.  We need to become more responsible as human beings and stop being so selfish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Everyone&#8217;s argument here is ridiculous!  None of you would be able to have this conversation if your mother wasn&#8217;t &#8220;ready&#8221; to have a child and decided to have an abortion.  The thing that should be talked about more in conversations like this is the unborn child.  What&#8217;s more important, post-partum depression or giving life a chance?  I&#8217;m a staunch conservative and I never believed that a child is a punishment for having sex.  It&#8217;s all about being responsible for the actions you take.  When you get drunk and get behind the wheel of a car there&#8217;s a chance you could get in an accident and kill someone else.  Just because getting drunk can be fun at times doesn&#8217;t make the end result any better.  Just like having sex is fun but it doesn&#8217;t mean that having an abortion is ok.  We need to become more responsible as human beings and stop being so selfish.</p>
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		<title>By: YAB</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161674</link>
		<dc:creator>YAB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 03:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161674</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m old enough to remember when abortion was opposed because pregnancy was supposed to be the punishment for girls who had pre-marital sex.  It was only after the pill was introduced and abortion became legal that Conservatives hit on a new, possibly the first, way to re-frame the issue: pro-life.

Prior to the late 60s or 70s, single women who got pregnant were sent away to have their babies in secret, and the babies were generally given up for adoption. You can see this in movies (English &amp; Spanish) of the period.

Today, girls are encouraged to keep their babies. (In Latin America, based on the TV I&#039;ve seen, a woman who gives up her baby for adoption is as or more evil than the woman who aborts.)  It no longer matters who the father is or whether the sexual act was consensual.  (I remember when you were supposed to choose a mate with care because the father of your future children was importatn)

I must admit that I am a bit surprised that a man of Obama&#039;s age would use that term, but I do not think it inaccurate.  

It is probably not healthy for young girls to get pregnant and, given the lack of universal health care and social services in the U.S. (an awful lot of pro-lifers seem to care about babies only before they are born), both mother and child suffer more often than not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m old enough to remember when abortion was opposed because pregnancy was supposed to be the punishment for girls who had pre-marital sex.  It was only after the pill was introduced and abortion became legal that Conservatives hit on a new, possibly the first, way to re-frame the issue: pro-life.</p>
<p>Prior to the late 60s or 70s, single women who got pregnant were sent away to have their babies in secret, and the babies were generally given up for adoption. You can see this in movies (English &amp; Spanish) of the period.</p>
<p>Today, girls are encouraged to keep their babies. (In Latin America, based on the TV I&#8217;ve seen, a woman who gives up her baby for adoption is as or more evil than the woman who aborts.)  It no longer matters who the father is or whether the sexual act was consensual.  (I remember when you were supposed to choose a mate with care because the father of your future children was importatn)</p>
<p>I must admit that I am a bit surprised that a man of Obama&#8217;s age would use that term, but I do not think it inaccurate.  </p>
<p>It is probably not healthy for young girls to get pregnant and, given the lack of universal health care and social services in the U.S. (an awful lot of pro-lifers seem to care about babies only before they are born), both mother and child suffer more often than not.</p>
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		<title>By: Sydney</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161617</link>
		<dc:creator>Sydney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 22:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161617</guid>
		<description>I agree with CV about the level of parsing of these statements.  I saw the speech in its context, which was about sex education.  So IN CONTEXT, I can only assume he is talking about teenagers--not grown up women.  And in that context, yes, if I got pregnant at age 16, I would SURELY have viewed that as a &quot;mistake&quot; (sorry all you babies-are-wonderful people) and would surely feel &quot;punished,&quot; as I also would have if I had contracted an STD!  I don&#039;t think there&#039;s a huge majority of teenage girls that would see it otherwise.  (Oh and by the way, he said &quot;getting pregnant&quot;, not &quot;having a baby&quot;.  Surely we could all agree that having an unwanted pregnancy would be a very hard situation for a young girl to deal with!  Or do we have to operate under the delusion that no pregnancies are &quot;unwanted&quot; too?

And while he wasn&#039;t even discussing abortion--I can&#039;t help but think we will NEVER solve this abortion disagreement if there are still people around that don&#039;t understand some pregnancies are, in fact, unwanted!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with CV about the level of parsing of these statements.  I saw the speech in its context, which was about sex education.  So IN CONTEXT, I can only assume he is talking about teenagers&#8211;not grown up women.  And in that context, yes, if I got pregnant at age 16, I would SURELY have viewed that as a &#8220;mistake&#8221; (sorry all you babies-are-wonderful people) and would surely feel &#8220;punished,&#8221; as I also would have if I had contracted an STD!  I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s a huge majority of teenage girls that would see it otherwise.  (Oh and by the way, he said &#8220;getting pregnant&#8221;, not &#8220;having a baby&#8221;.  Surely we could all agree that having an unwanted pregnancy would be a very hard situation for a young girl to deal with!  Or do we have to operate under the delusion that no pregnancies are &#8220;unwanted&#8221; too?</p>
<p>And while he wasn&#8217;t even discussing abortion&#8211;I can&#8217;t help but think we will NEVER solve this abortion disagreement if there are still people around that don&#8217;t understand some pregnancies are, in fact, unwanted!</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161409</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 05:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161409</guid>
		<description>I also think it&#039;s important to remember that Obama was talking about how he&#039;s talking about sex to his &lt;b&gt;9 and 6 year old&lt;/b&gt; daughters.   I don&#039;t see anything wrong telling a six year old that sex is something for married people (if you include gay and lesbian couples as married), and then complicating that when the kid get to be a teenager (along the lines of &quot;Well, sex should at least be with someone you can trust...&quot; or whatever).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also think it&#8217;s important to remember that Obama was talking about how he&#8217;s talking about sex to his <b>9 and 6 year old</b> daughters.   I don&#8217;t see anything wrong telling a six year old that sex is something for married people (if you include gay and lesbian couples as married), and then complicating that when the kid get to be a teenager (along the lines of &#8220;Well, sex should at least be with someone you can trust&#8230;&#8221; or whatever).</p>
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		<title>By: ks</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161381</link>
		<dc:creator>ks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 00:35:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161381</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;He could have remained neutral - said nothing - and advocated contraception without heaping on the moralism and saying we’re all terrible sinners. That his first instinct was to start getting all puritanical shows what a nasty religious scumbag he is.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

He could have.  And his very devoutness and willingness to pander to the religious is one of the reasons that I&#039;m not a giant Obama fan (I like him well enough and I&#039;ll vote for him in the fall, but he definitely isn&#039;t my first choice).  But he is a religious person, or at least, he plays one on tv, and so he does believe that.  And let&#039;s face it, he knows his audience well.

I&#039;m not saying that I like his answer all that well, but it is better than I would have hoped from a mainstream presidential candidate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>He could have remained neutral &#8211; said nothing &#8211; and advocated contraception without heaping on the moralism and saying we’re all terrible sinners. That his first instinct was to start getting all puritanical shows what a nasty religious scumbag he is.</p></blockquote>
<p>He could have.  And his very devoutness and willingness to pander to the religious is one of the reasons that I&#8217;m not a giant Obama fan (I like him well enough and I&#8217;ll vote for him in the fall, but he definitely isn&#8217;t my first choice).  But he is a religious person, or at least, he plays one on tv, and so he does believe that.  And let&#8217;s face it, he knows his audience well.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that I like his answer all that well, but it is better than I would have hoped from a mainstream presidential candidate.</p>
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		<title>By: GumbyAnne</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161366</link>
		<dc:creator>GumbyAnne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 22:44:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161366</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;as someone who was the result of a teenage pregnancy, I deeply resent the view that I, on whatever level, was/am some kind of ‘punishment’ inflicted on my parents for their actions, which Obama sees as some kind of ‘moral failure’.&lt;/em&gt;

Keep in mind that Obama is also the result of an unplanned teenage pregnancy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>as someone who was the result of a teenage pregnancy, I deeply resent the view that I, on whatever level, was/am some kind of ‘punishment’ inflicted on my parents for their actions, which Obama sees as some kind of ‘moral failure’.</em></p>
<p>Keep in mind that Obama is also the result of an unplanned teenage pregnancy.</p>
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		<title>By: VGC</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161364</link>
		<dc:creator>VGC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 22:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161364</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;But where we were both conceived on the “right side” (ie, after the wedding), they could hold up their heads among their family and friends. There wasn’t any “shame”- just rock stupidity. &lt;/em&gt;

I read this book &quot;The Girls Who Went Away be Ann Fessler&quot;.  This book was full of stories of unwed pregnant girls and women who were sent away for the crime of getting pregnant. Some of the stories talked about how the hospital staff treated them like shit while they were in labor (some were refused medication). A few of them got a completely different treatment a couple of years later when they were back in the delivery room, but married.

&quot;Children are a &lt;em&gt;joy and blessing&lt;/em&gt;&quot; my ass. If you have those children out of wedlock, these people will be sure to frequently make you feel quite the opposite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>But where we were both conceived on the “right side” (ie, after the wedding), they could hold up their heads among their family and friends. There wasn’t any “shame”- just rock stupidity. </em></p>
<p>I read this book &#8220;The Girls Who Went Away be Ann Fessler&#8221;.  This book was full of stories of unwed pregnant girls and women who were sent away for the crime of getting pregnant. Some of the stories talked about how the hospital staff treated them like shit while they were in labor (some were refused medication). A few of them got a completely different treatment a couple of years later when they were back in the delivery room, but married.</p>
<p>&#8220;Children are a <em>joy and blessing</em>&#8221; my ass. If you have those children out of wedlock, these people will be sure to frequently make you feel quite the opposite.</p>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161359</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 21:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161359</guid>
		<description>ks - I&#039;m not suggesting that Obama or other politicians should put forward the view that recreational sex is a good idea as a campaign strategy. An alternative would be for him to just shut up, rather than start spouting off about how his ethics should be rammed down everyone else&#039;s throats. He doesn&#039;t have to make a forced choice between saying &quot;sex is wrong&quot; and &quot;hey kids, sex is fun&quot;. He could have remained neutral - said nothing - and advocated contraception without heaping on the moralism and saying we&#039;re all terrible sinners. That his first instinct was to start getting all puritanical shows what a nasty religious scumbag he is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ks &#8211; I&#8217;m not suggesting that Obama or other politicians should put forward the view that recreational sex is a good idea as a campaign strategy. An alternative would be for him to just shut up, rather than start spouting off about how his ethics should be rammed down everyone else&#8217;s throats. He doesn&#8217;t have to make a forced choice between saying &#8220;sex is wrong&#8221; and &#8220;hey kids, sex is fun&#8221;. He could have remained neutral &#8211; said nothing &#8211; and advocated contraception without heaping on the moralism and saying we&#8217;re all terrible sinners. That his first instinct was to start getting all puritanical shows what a nasty religious scumbag he is.</p>
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		<title>By: ks</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161344</link>
		<dc:creator>ks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161344</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;He’s also openly saying some very nasty and revanchist things: casual sex is wrong, abstinence should be encouraged, having sex which isn’t properly sanctioned by his ethical code is a “mistake”, people should be taught “values and morals” so they can avoid this. Fuck him.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, he is.  It&#039;s also the mainstream view in this country.  He doesn&#039;t seem to be all that far out of the mainstream as far as him own ideas go, and even if he was, he&#039;d get skewered if he actually said that sex is wonderful and good and everyone who wants to, including teenagers, should be having it.  

You and I (and most commenters on liberal, feminist blogs) might think so and might wish for a politician who has the ovaries/balls/spine to actually say so in public, but most of the country, and even most democrats, wouldn&#039;t stand for that.  And as he&#039;s running for president of the entire country, he&#039;s not going to shoot himself in the foot on that one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>He’s also openly saying some very nasty and revanchist things: casual sex is wrong, abstinence should be encouraged, having sex which isn’t properly sanctioned by his ethical code is a “mistake”, people should be taught “values and morals” so they can avoid this. Fuck him.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, he is.  It&#8217;s also the mainstream view in this country.  He doesn&#8217;t seem to be all that far out of the mainstream as far as him own ideas go, and even if he was, he&#8217;d get skewered if he actually said that sex is wonderful and good and everyone who wants to, including teenagers, should be having it.  </p>
<p>You and I (and most commenters on liberal, feminist blogs) might think so and might wish for a politician who has the ovaries/balls/spine to actually say so in public, but most of the country, and even most democrats, wouldn&#8217;t stand for that.  And as he&#8217;s running for president of the entire country, he&#8217;s not going to shoot himself in the foot on that one.</p>
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		<title>By: cy</title>
		<link>http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161328</link>
		<dc:creator>cy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 18:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/03/31/punishment/#comment-161328</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m surprised at the level of parsing of this statement; Obama was clearly speaking relatively off-the-cuff.  I&#039;m not sure how telling the statement is outside his overall message that sex ed shouldn&#039;t be abstinence only.  Giving him credit for saying &quot;punishment&quot; or criticizing him for saying &quot;mistake&quot; seems to me to be reading too much into it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m surprised at the level of parsing of this statement; Obama was clearly speaking relatively off-the-cuff.  I&#8217;m not sure how telling the statement is outside his overall message that sex ed shouldn&#8217;t be abstinence only.  Giving him credit for saying &#8220;punishment&#8221; or criticizing him for saying &#8220;mistake&#8221; seems to me to be reading too much into it.</p>
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