Comments on: Feministe Feedback: What Does a Feminist Relationship Look Like? http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/ In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set. Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:11:18 +0000 hourly 1 By: Yoda http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-193724 Yoda Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:44:58 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-193724 About Enlightened, the dark side want to see you do not. Consequences have each action, and no different feminism is. About Enlightened, the dark side want to see you do not. Consequences have each action, and no different feminism is.

]]> By: Ismone http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-164569 Ismone Wed, 16 Apr 2008 00:03:03 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-164569 Text from ad running with this post: Meet Local Cheating Wives Meet Real Cheating Wives. Millions Of Women. Search Now! Text from ad running with this post:

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]]> By: Betty Boondoggle http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-164524 Betty Boondoggle Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:52:38 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-164524 <blockquote>The fact is most women would prefer to be supported. </blockquote> Fact, in this case, meaning "something I pulled out of my ass ".

The fact is most women would prefer to be supported.

Fact, in this case, meaning “something I pulled out of my ass “.

]]> By: Jill http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-164508 Jill Tue, 15 Apr 2008 16:16:30 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-164508 Enlightened, these threads are for feminist women and men to exchange ideas and help each other out. They are not the place for you to air your grievances about feminists or working women. You are derailing the conversation and going against the whole purposes of this topic. That's why I'm deleting your four comments in moderation. And while you're welcome to leave (productive) comments on the rest of this blog, the Feministe Feedback sections are for feminist-minded people, so I ask that you no longer comment on them. Enlightened, these threads are for feminist women and men to exchange ideas and help each other out. They are not the place for you to air your grievances about feminists or working women. You are derailing the conversation and going against the whole purposes of this topic. That’s why I’m deleting your four comments in moderation. And while you’re welcome to leave (productive) comments on the rest of this blog, the Feministe Feedback sections are for feminist-minded people, so I ask that you no longer comment on them.

]]> By: charlotte http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-164385 charlotte Mon, 14 Apr 2008 23:42:27 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-164385 @90 (enlightened): How did you manage to TiVo my life? I'm dealing with *exactly* these issues right now. My spouse, a feminist-in-training who grew up in an ultraconservative misogynist/ racist/ homophobic midwestern environment, and I, a self-identified feminist who grew up in a highly political German women-only household, are both extremely career oriented (he's an academic, I'm an engineer) and work in two different parts of the same state at the moment. We have almost the same income; his career would be taking a hit if he moved where I work, and mine if I moved where he works. Previously, the conundrum was, since geographical mobility is key to a successful career, should I transfer to the other side of the country for a promotion, or should I follow my "heimat instinct" and stay within a one-day commuting radius? Now that I may be pregnant, this situation has been complicated by whether to continue my career as a woman in engineering and potentially perpetuate the exploitation of local WoC who work in the "traditionally female" childcare industry, or to take him up on his offer to stay home with the baby, finish up the PhD that got lost in the economic shuffle years ago, and slip into the uncomfortably patriarchally defined role of a SAHM. While I realize that I sound like a crazily privileged white prick, I also realize that my practical choice in this situation has political impact--on corporate maternity policy, on the upbringing and values communicated to the child, on the message this sends out to the communities of which we are a part, etc. So, a feminist relationship is really one of negotiation and careful planning and prioritizing, in which changing one's priorities is an equitable undertaking. At this point, my spouse decided to take a small career hit and apply for two academic jobs that popped up in my geographical area, and I in his, but if nothing happens, the one of us who makes less will most likely bite the bullet--which, of course, is a decision built on the fact that women still make 80 cents on the male dollar. In other words, putting one's actions where one's mouth is doesn't always generate win-win situations. @90 (enlightened): How did you manage to TiVo my life? I’m dealing with *exactly* these issues right now. My spouse, a feminist-in-training who grew up in an ultraconservative misogynist/ racist/ homophobic midwestern environment, and I, a self-identified feminist who grew up in a highly political German women-only household, are both extremely career oriented (he’s an academic, I’m an engineer) and work in two different parts of the same state at the moment. We have almost the same income; his career would be taking a hit if he moved where I work, and mine if I moved where he works. Previously, the conundrum was, since geographical mobility is key to a successful career, should I transfer to the other side of the country for a promotion, or should I follow my “heimat instinct” and stay within a one-day commuting radius? Now that I may be pregnant, this situation has been complicated by whether to continue my career as a woman in engineering and potentially perpetuate the exploitation of local WoC who work in the “traditionally female” childcare industry, or to take him up on his offer to stay home with the baby, finish up the PhD that got lost in the economic shuffle years ago, and slip into the uncomfortably patriarchally defined role of a SAHM. While I realize that I sound like a crazily privileged white prick, I also realize that my practical choice in this situation has political impact–on corporate maternity policy, on the upbringing and values communicated to the child, on the message this sends out to the communities of which we are a part, etc. So, a feminist relationship is really one of negotiation and careful planning and prioritizing, in which changing one’s priorities is an equitable undertaking. At this point, my spouse decided to take a small career hit and apply for two academic jobs that popped up in my geographical area, and I in his, but if nothing happens, the one of us who makes less will most likely bite the bullet–which, of course, is a decision built on the fact that women still make 80 cents on the male dollar. In other words, putting one’s actions where one’s mouth is doesn’t always generate win-win situations.

]]> By: chareth http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-164375 chareth Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:56:06 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-164375 not that it's new, but i consider myself so completely fortunate to have been dating a wonderful feminist guy for several years. we have had arguments and disagreements, but i can't recall a single instance where he said anything i took to be remotely sexist or made me feel in any way demeaned. we share the same progressive political beliefs and frequently talk about gender issues--i don't mean to cast him as the "voice of dudedom", but i do sometimes ask him for his perspective as a straight man about a given situation, just because i want his input and balance. we do occasionally slip into some traditional gender roles in a superficial way--he can't iron very well and neither can i, but i'm slightly better at it so i've ironed clothes for him now and then. he doesn't know anything about cars and neither do i, but he helps me with minor car things sometimes that he knows just a smidgen more about than me. he also kills bugs, but i think that has more to do with my literal phobia of them than "oooooh save the poor, delicate princess from the mean, nasty spider!" he also is pretty grossed out about doing it, which he voices frequently and never adopts some kind of cavalier "i'll save you" attitude about it. he just knows that killing bugs is something we both abhor, but i am like psychologically incapable of doing so on most occasions, so he helps me out and i appreciate it. i suppose these could be considered traditional gender behaviors, but in the context of our larger relationship, they seem like genuine personality traits manifested and displays of mutual helpfulness to me. the much, much bigger picture is that we have good, equitable conversation, feel free to communicate our problems with each other, share expenses more or less equally (well, proportionally these days since i make a lot more money) and don't tend to expect each other to act in some stereotypical way. sure, he gets annoyed and maybe a tad bit territorial when other guys hit on me, but he also trusts me implicitly and lets me handle the situation because he knows i can take care of myself and that these guys are just as annoying to me. he isn't the slightest bit bothered that i make more money or have a more demanding job and conversely i don't care about what kind of social status he can provide me--i just want him to have a job that he likes and is good at. fundamentally it's about trust and respect, i guess. not that it’s new, but i consider myself so completely fortunate to have been dating a wonderful feminist guy for several years. we have had arguments and disagreements, but i can’t recall a single instance where he said anything i took to be remotely sexist or made me feel in any way demeaned. we share the same progressive political beliefs and frequently talk about gender issues–i don’t mean to cast him as the “voice of dudedom”, but i do sometimes ask him for his perspective as a straight man about a given situation, just because i want his input and balance. we do occasionally slip into some traditional gender roles in a superficial way–he can’t iron very well and neither can i, but i’m slightly better at it so i’ve ironed clothes for him now and then. he doesn’t know anything about cars and neither do i, but he helps me with minor car things sometimes that he knows just a smidgen more about than me. he also kills bugs, but i think that has more to do with my literal phobia of them than “oooooh save the poor, delicate princess from the mean, nasty spider!” he also is pretty grossed out about doing it, which he voices frequently and never adopts some kind of cavalier “i’ll save you” attitude about it. he just knows that killing bugs is something we both abhor, but i am like psychologically incapable of doing so on most occasions, so he helps me out and i appreciate it. i suppose these could be considered traditional gender behaviors, but in the context of our larger relationship, they seem like genuine personality traits manifested and displays of mutual helpfulness to me. the much, much bigger picture is that we have good, equitable conversation, feel free to communicate our problems with each other, share expenses more or less equally (well, proportionally these days since i make a lot more money) and don’t tend to expect each other to act in some stereotypical way. sure, he gets annoyed and maybe a tad bit territorial when other guys hit on me, but he also trusts me implicitly and lets me handle the situation because he knows i can take care of myself and that these guys are just as annoying to me. he isn’t the slightest bit bothered that i make more money or have a more demanding job and conversely i don’t care about what kind of social status he can provide me–i just want him to have a job that he likes and is good at. fundamentally it’s about trust and respect, i guess.

]]> By: Ismone http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-164319 Ismone Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:43:17 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-164319 Enlightened---so why doesn't the relationship go equally awry when the man significantly outearns his wife? Enlightened—so why doesn’t the relationship go equally awry when the man significantly outearns his wife?

]]> By: enlightened http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-164003 enlightened Sat, 12 Apr 2008 20:24:45 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-164003 Dawn are you a partner in your law firm? No firm I have ever worked for (I have only worked in small firms - fewer than 14 lawyers) would someone with your schedule make partner, unless you were bringing in a substantial amount of business and if you are home taking care of children even if it is just one day a week, you are not likely bringing in a lot of business. Given the transitions of your husband's career, it is not likely that there is much disparity in your incomes. If your income were substantially higher than his and your life style reflected it, I wonder how things would be between you and your husband. It sounds like your relationship is pretty balanced. I believe things go awry when the wife's income becomes significantly greater than her husband's. Dawn are you a partner in your law firm? No firm I have ever worked for (I have only worked in small firms – fewer than 14 lawyers) would someone with your schedule make partner, unless you were bringing in a substantial amount of business and if you are home taking care of children even if it is just one day a week, you are not likely bringing in a lot of business. Given the transitions of your husband’s career, it is not likely that there is much disparity in your incomes. If your income were substantially higher than his and your life style reflected it, I wonder how things would be between you and your husband. It sounds like your relationship is pretty balanced. I believe things go awry when the wife’s income becomes significantly greater than her husband’s.

]]> By: Dawn http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-163773 Dawn Fri, 11 Apr 2008 19:48:23 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-163773 My husband and I have two boys, ages 5 and 3. We were married for 9 years before I had Son#1. I took his last name when I got married and made my unmarried last name my middle name. We were married after college. He supported me through law school. I supported him through a master's degree in computer science. When I had my first son, I went back to work after my six week leave was up. Husband delayed his parental leave and took the next six weeks to stay home with Son#1. The baby went to a daycare center afterwards. When I became unexpectedly pregnant with Son#2, something had to give. I negotiated with my employer for a reduced case law and a four day a week schedule, which I maintained until Son#2 was three. I took a hit in salary for that, but it was worth it. In January, I went back to work full time and my husband left work to start nursing school. He's switching to nursing because 1) he is burned out on computer science and 2) nursing gives him a more flexible schedule, so that he can do more with the boys. We split chores and kid duties pretty much evenly. He does the dishes and the vacuuming. I clean the bathrooms. We both do the laundry and pick up the house. He baths the kids every morning, while I make breakfast and get their clothes together. We split the pick-up and drop-offs at preschool evenly. He takes all of the responsibility for the kids when I have to be out of town for work. He takes the kids to swim lessons. I take the kids to their grandparents for the weekly grandparents' visits. When the kids were tiny, we traded shifts. I would go to bed and he would take the 11 pm feeding. (I pumped milk and he bottle fed it.) I would get up for the 3am shift and feed the baby. He changed as many diapers as I did, and wiped up the spills. When nursing school is over next year. (It's an accelerated BSN), he plans on working 3-4 days a week (12 hour shifts) and I plan on going back to a 4 day a week schedule at my law office. The boys are having a great time with their dad right now, but I miss my three day weekends with my kids. My husband and I have two boys, ages 5 and 3. We were married for 9 years before I had Son#1. I took his last name when I got married and made my unmarried last name my middle name. We were married after college. He supported me through law school. I supported him through a master’s degree in computer science. When I had my first son, I went back to work after my six week leave was up. Husband delayed his parental leave and took the next six weeks to stay home with Son#1. The baby went to a daycare center afterwards. When I became unexpectedly pregnant with Son#2, something had to give. I negotiated with my employer for a reduced case law and a four day a week schedule, which I maintained until Son#2 was three. I took a hit in salary for that, but it was worth it. In January, I went back to work full time and my husband left work to start nursing school. He’s switching to nursing because 1) he is burned out on computer science and 2) nursing gives him a more flexible schedule, so that he can do more with the boys.

We split chores and kid duties pretty much evenly. He does the dishes and the vacuuming. I clean the bathrooms. We both do the laundry and pick up the house. He baths the kids every morning, while I make breakfast and get their clothes together. We split the pick-up and drop-offs at preschool evenly. He takes all of the responsibility for the kids when I have to be out of town for work. He takes the kids to swim lessons. I take the kids to their grandparents for the weekly grandparents’ visits.

When the kids were tiny, we traded shifts. I would go to bed and he would take the 11 pm feeding. (I pumped milk and he bottle fed it.) I would get up for the 3am shift and feed the baby. He changed as many diapers as I did, and wiped up the spills.

When nursing school is over next year. (It’s an accelerated BSN), he plans on working 3-4 days a week (12 hour shifts) and I plan on going back to a 4 day a week schedule at my law office.

The boys are having a great time with their dad right now, but I miss my three day weekends with my kids.

]]> By: Onyeka http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-163631 Onyeka Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:56:18 +0000 http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2008/04/03/feministe-feedback-what-does-a-feminist-relationship-look-like/#comment-163631 My first boyfriend was a total mummy's boy. He was SO into gender roles and the likes, it was infuriating. I hadn't even noticed I was much of a feminist till we started having a conversation. Unfortunately i live in a society that believes men should be waited on hand and foot, and as long as they make money, then its okay. This guy was no different. I blame his upbringing though. His mother never really imposed any sense of housekeeping/personal care on him, always leaving it to his sisters, so naturally he expected that in a relationship. To add to my grief, he had an ex that practically lived to cook and clean and provide sex for him. My, was HE disappointed when he got to know me. I told him I saw no reason why I should come over to his place, and then I'll end up in his kitchen or cleaning his house. He did that to a female cousin who used to stay at his place (that poor girl was treated like a slave and she seemed so COOL with it), and I didn't hide my disgust. HE seemed horrified at this concept, and I found myself constantly losing patience with him. He was just so LAZY. If there was no woman around, this guy literally starved. After a couple of months I let him go. It was at that point it became clear to me that I could not have a guy who was so deeply ingrained with these old-fashioned laws. 80% percent of the guys (and women *gasp*) in my country think that way, so I guess I have a long wait ahead of me, but I don't mind. Having a boyfriend didnt get me my job, my friends or any of the things that make me happy. My first boyfriend was a total mummy’s boy. He was SO into gender roles and the likes, it was infuriating. I hadn’t even noticed I was much of a feminist till we started having a conversation. Unfortunately i live in a society that believes men should be waited on hand and foot, and as long as they make money, then its okay.

This guy was no different. I blame his upbringing though. His mother never really imposed any sense of housekeeping/personal care on him, always leaving it to his sisters, so naturally he expected that in a relationship. To add to my grief, he had an ex that practically lived to cook and clean and provide sex for him. My, was HE disappointed when he got to know me. I told him I saw no reason why I should come over to his place, and then I’ll end up in his kitchen or cleaning his house. He did that to a female cousin who used to stay at his place (that poor girl was treated like a slave and she seemed so COOL with it), and I didn’t hide my disgust. HE seemed horrified at this concept, and I found myself constantly losing patience with him. He was just so LAZY. If there was no woman around, this guy literally starved. After a couple of months I let him go.

It was at that point it became clear to me that I could not have a guy who was so deeply ingrained with these old-fashioned laws. 80% percent of the guys (and women *gasp*) in my country think that way, so I guess I have a long wait ahead of me, but I don’t mind.
Having a boyfriend didnt get me my job, my friends or any of the things that make me happy.

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