I guess I’m one of those old-fashioned feminists that doesn’t think a woman’s entire self-worth is wrapped up in what she does sexually. The phrase “selling her body” is *extremely* patriarchal and reduces sex workers to one aspect of their being: their sexual behavior. Sex workers are *not* selling their bodies – they are offering a service. Sorry but I thought that feminism didn’t subscribe to the belief that a woman engaging in sex with a man constitutes a transfer of ownership.

A sex worker may be merely offering a sexual service that constitutes only one part of her self-worth, but in our patriarchal society johns *think* they are buying access to her body and that that ‘purchase’ therefore makes sex workers worthless. e.g. the disgusting abusive comments by guys on CCGs posts about how ‘she’s just a whore’. I don’t see it as condescending or somehow unfeminist to think that sex work is not really empowering to women. Men still have the real power in our patriarchal society, so the virgin-whore dichotomy persists at a cultural level, whatever the individual level of empowerment. (Having said all this – to acknowledge the debate since then – I can’t agree that all sex workers are ‘fucked up’. I am more arguing it isn’t a zero sum game where sex work is either empowering and feministy or subjugating and repressive. Which is why I really appreciated this link to CCG.)

By “sex work is sacred”, I do think – and the criticisms here prove – that somehow, criticism of sex work and women’s decisions to engage in sex work raises people’s hackles, in a way that any other judgment would not. I could offer an opinion on stay at home moms, or women in the military, or women playing Grand Theft Auto, or anti-choice women, or any other thing that gets debated here, and I wouldn’t be shouted down for silencing and dismissing women’s voices.

…really? Have you ever read the threads where stay-at-home moms are discussed on feminist blogs?

There are a few issues that are guaranteed to start comment thread wars. Sex work is one of them, along with porn, “opting out”/stay-at-home moms, beauty rituals (hair removal in particular), and anything having to do with fat. So no, sex work is not sacred. It’s one issue that causes huge divides within feminist communities. It’s an issue that I’m still flushing out my own thoughts on.

But in the meantime, I recognize that sex work is not just a theory. It is a reality for many women, and when we talk about sex work, we often end up talking about people like they aren’t in the room. That’s a problem. And so while thoughts and feelings and theory about sex work is great and important, just like it is with any other issue, it’s also important to remember that we’re talking about real people, many of whom are making perfectly rational choices, and whom have diverse experiences and beliefs. No one here is saying, “Sex work is great! Always! For everyone!” No one here is saying that critiques of sex work are inappropriate. We are saying that sex work, like most things, is not black and white, and serves as a blanket term for a whole set of experiences that differ phenomenally from person to person. So to brand every sex worker as “fucked up,” or to assume that someone who strips their way through law school is in the same position as a child who is sold into prostitution is kind of ridiculous. There’s a lot to critique, but overly-broad criticisms of sex workers themselves are not helpful.

“I could offer an opinion on stay at home moms, or women in the military, or women playing Grand Theft Auto, or anti-choice women, or any other thing that gets debated here, and I wouldn’t be shouted down for silencing and dismissing women’s voices.”

You’re kidding, right? Aside from possibly anti-choice women, you likely would be shouted down for all those. And that’s because anti-choice women are trying to make choices for other women. The other groups, including sex workers who choose to enter sex work, are making choices for themselves.

I’m with Jill on “I agree that sex work in a patriarchal context is problematic; I agree that it promotes unhealthy gender relations; I agree that it can be damaging to workers.” What you’re not weighing in, though, is that because it does operate in a patriarchy, it is highly valued, and women can be trusted to do the cost-benefit math on our own (or don’t you think women can do math?). I don’t believe abuse victims are incapable of making rational decisions, and also have proof that not all sex workers are abuse victims.

There is a difference between saying you think, in the main and on average, something is not as worthwhile a career as certain others. I don’t think most of us would disagree with you that this is true for sex work. But that says nothing about the individual case, the individual woman’s decision. That is something you cannot know about unless you are she.

And I, personally, have said a similar thing about stay at home moms. (And gotten a lot of flack for it, I might add!) I don’t think on average it’s as worthwhile as having a career. Or maybe a better way of saying it is that I would think it optimal for the percentage of women and men working to be closer to equal — if more men stayed home, the penalties for women doing so would lessen. But I would NEVER say that a particular woman should not stay home. Because for many it does make sense and work. And how can I, without actually being them, know what is best for them?

I could offer an opinion on stay at home moms, or women in the military, or women playing Grand Theft Auto, or anti-choice women, or any other thing that gets debated here, and I wouldn’t be shouted down for silencing and dismissing women’s voices.

kmach: If you treated any of the above as the Passive, Voiceless Monolith that you seem to think constitutes sex workers, I’d like to think you’d be shouted down pretty quickly. Because you are being disrespectful and condescending, and because you think you are entitled to ignore the agency and choice of women who choose sex work.

As for your seventeen year old student who didn’t get offended when you told her she shouldn’t go into the military… I take it you’re a guidance counselor, then? You’re in an official position of authority with regard to this student, and it’s expected that you share your thoughts and opinions on her prospects and future? Yeah? Well, then, of course she didn’t get offended.

You are not in such a position of authority over any of the women who have spoken here. They didn’t ask you whether or not you thought maybe they could’ve made better choices–or whether or not you approve of their choices. You have forcefully foisted your career wisdom on grown women who are not your students, not your charges, not under your fucking authority. That’s condescending. It’s paternalistic. And it’s supremely fucked up.

Cool, RenegadeEvolution – my check’s in the mail. Because having and expressing an opinion on sex work is the same as someone dehumanizing you on the porn set – no difference!

Great, I’ll be waiting, because it’s obvious to me you can’t see past whatever you want to see long enough to notice that as a sex worker, I find your attitude worse and more othering than a client or a pornographers, any client or pornographers, actually. Which hey, to some people might send up even a tiny red flag, but sure, I get it, the path of the righteous and all…and with the dismissing thing? You dismissed the words of every sex worker here for the most part, aside from what? A sarcastic snap to imply throwing money at me? Classic! That I actually find amusing. In a very, very fucked up way of course.

Jill:And as others have said, yes, you can criticize the military (or women going into the military), but I’ll bet you wouldn’t argue that female soldiers are all fucked up, or don’t know what they’re doing, or are bad for feminism.

Actually, probably not fucked up, but I’d definitely qualify many as naive. I work with a high school senior who is thinking of joining the military. I suggested she might want to stick with her original plan of college, since she’s got great grades. At seventeen, she doesn’t quite get that the military isn’t some fun and games party where she gets to act tough and hang out with guys (she only has guy friends, and pretty much despises her female peers) and she just laughed when I quoted statistics of sexual abuse of women in the U.S. military. Now, her decision is not mine to make, but, yeah – I think she’d be really misguided to join the military. It would be a fucked up decision. Am I being condescending? Should I assume a girl who, at five feet tall and ninety pounds, and insists that she can “take any guy in a fight”, might be a bit naive about reality? She wasn’t terribly offended when I said – please, you can do better than that. Because, like my posts on this blog, it’s just my opinion, my judgment – I’m not forcibly restraining her from joining up, and I’m not forcibly restraining sex workers from fucking strangers for money.

I think there are problems inherent in sex work. I think it victimizes women. I think sex work is inherently different than other kinds of work, much in the same way I believe that sexual violence has a different effect than nonsexual violence. The sexual aspect makes a difference – and whether that’s cultural or ingrained in the human animal, I have no idea. I think that women engaging in sex work are selling themselves short. The few women I’ve known who’ve been involved in sex work have been abuse victims. The author of the blog that this thread is about is the survivor of repeated sexual abuse. The statistics I’ve seen on sex workers show a preponderance of sexual abuse victims.

I apologize if I caused offense with the colloquial term “fucked up” for someone who has suffered sexual abuse, has psychological scares about it, and whose primary self worth is how valuable she is sexually to men. I actually think it’s less insulting or “damaged” or “psychologically vulnerable”. I don’t think that believing that someone has made a really stupid decision means that I’m actively silencing their voice or dismissing them as human beings.

I think that the fact men can commodify women, that women are objectified in this culture, and that sex workers are often subject to exploitative working conditions, and that they get short shrift in our legal system, are horrible things. (I guess I didn’t mention sex work from the johns’ angle because it seemed kind of obvious that if I find sex work ugly, I’d have problems with the men who are buying as well. Duh.)

By “sex work is sacred”, I do think – and the criticisms here prove – that somehow, criticism of sex work and women’s decisions to engage in sex work raises people’s hackles, in a way that any other judgment would not. I could offer an opinion on stay at home moms, or women in the military, or women playing Grand Theft Auto, or anti-choice women, or any other thing that gets debated here, and I wouldn’t be shouted down for silencing and dismissing women’s voices.

Why are sex workers sacred?

Waitwaitwait, because people found a phrase you used about their work patronizing, they are “sacred?” I don’t see how that follows.

I can’t be supportive or neutral about a choice that I believe is ultimately damaging to the worker. I don’t think it promotes healthy gender relations.

Do most jobs, though? I really don’t understand why sex work gets singled out like this.

And I think all the rationalization and glamorization is complete bullshit.

What glamorizes sex work? I think there is some recognition lately by some (and by no means all) feminists that we ought to support sex workers’ rights and their fight for safer working conditions. I don’t think that’s glamor.

There are a few autobiographies out there where I feel some people may be bragging a bit, look what I’m doing, etc. Even then, however, I’ve not seen anyone being anything other than VERY clear that sex work is not a bouquet of wonderful. I can’t think of any sex worker I’ve ever read who has claimed sex work is all a bed of roses. I HAVE seen some claim that some aspects of the work are fun, and a VERY small few (like Ren) say they prefer sex work to other jobs. None of that means it’s a fantastic job, or even that they recommend it to others. Ren has been very clear, for example, that she thinks most people WOULD NOT FEEL the same way about her job as she does.

So what’s the glamorization.

These opinions fall quite short of a rallying cry to brand sex workers with the scarlet “A”, or espousing a belief that the negative legal and societal attitudes towards sex workers are just fine, because they deserve it.

I welcome more comments but would appreciate respect. Thanks.

It makes me really sad that this even has to be said on a feminist blog. Thanks, Anon Working Girl, for your patience, even with people who are outright disrespectful and rude.

It seems like criticizing the choice of sex work is taboo in young feminist circles. I can criticize women going into the military on political or pacifist grounds, and it wouldn’t be interpreted as me hating or vilifying female soldiers. Why are sex workers sacred?

Since when is criticizing sex work “sacred” in young feminist circles? A glance through our archives will show that many people here (myself included) have issues with sex work, and especially how sex work operates in a patriarchal system. The difference, though, is that you won’t find many people here who see the world as so black-and-white as to believe that all sex workers are fucked up and that sex workers are to blame for doing the exact same thing as the rest of us — making their way through a thoroughly fucked-up system to the best of their abilities.

And as others have said, yes, you can criticize the military (or women going into the military), but I’ll bet you wouldn’t argue that female soldiers are all fucked up, or don’t know what they’re doing, or are bad for feminism.

I can’t be supportive or neutral about a choice that I believe is ultimately damaging to the worker. I don’t think it promotes healthy gender relations. And I think all the rationalization and glamorization is complete bullshit. These opinions fall quite short of a rallying cry to brand sex workers with the scarlet “A”, or espousing a belief that the negative legal and societal attitudes towards sex workers are just fine, because they deserve it.

Question: Are there any female-dominated occupations that aren’t somehow damaging to workers and that promote healthy gender roles? Any occupations at all that do those things? I agree that sex work in a patriarchal context is problematic; I agree that it promotes unhealthy gender relations; I agree that it can be damaging to workers. But I don’t see how that makes it all that much different from being, say, a stay-at-home mom, or a housekeeper, or a massage therapist. I can see the argument that there is something different about exchanging sex as a commodity, but to act as if that makes sex workers fucked up or all that different from other workers is kind of silly.

Yeah, it’s a real subtle distinction – I think sex work is a fool’s game, I think women who choose it are fucked up, and I think it feeds into the patriarchy and commodifying sex makes the fight for women’s equality more difficult. But I don’t hate sex, women, or female (or male) sex workers. Think you can wrap your head around that?

That’s an interesting premise you’re starting from — that all women who choose sex work are fucked up. It makes it impossible to argue with you, then, because any time a sex worker talks about her own experience, you’re going to write it off as the ramblings of a fucked-up individual. As Cara said, this sounds a lot like the anti-choice argument that all women who have abortions are fucked up — it’s a convenient way to disregard everything they have to say for themselves.